Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:02 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
ABED wrote:He's male isn't he?
.
He’s male but the Saiyajin race always struck me as a race of asexuals who only find sex useful for the strict purpose of procreation and not so much for pleasure.

Even when Nappa suggest they breed with earth’s women (which Vegeta shoots down) It’s more of a “let’s create an army of uber hybrids” than “We’re evil so let’s have our way with their women just cuz”

Sex seems like a means to an end for Saiyajin. Not a hedonistic thing.
Fair enough, but given he changes quite a bit and his initial reluctance was mostly a matter of self preservation, I buy that he would come around on the issue of sex. Also, sleeping with Bulma doesn't have to be a hedonistic thing. It could be a night after talking and too much vodka thing.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by Bruma rabu » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:14 pm

ABED wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:I mean, in the past few years they've added Future Mai, Caulifla, Kale, Kefla, Ribrianne, Android 21, Berryblu and Cheelai, plus several minor female fighters, Angels and a GoD in Super. They know there's a demand for more female representation (even if it mostly comes form the waifu crowd but you know, ends justify the means), it's getting better. The big problem is that Toriyama likes to rotate out the supporting cast and one of the go-to excuses for shelving a character is having them settle down to raise a family. For female characters, that carries a load of unfortunate implications, especially since most of them end up having babies. For the record, I think this is why the les-pandering they've got going on with Caulifla and Kale is going to be good for them in the long run. Even if nothing comes of it (and let's be honest, nothing will) having that angle makes it less likely they'll suffer the baby-factory fate.

Give credit where due for keeping Bulma important for so long I guess.
How is having children a bad thing? Idk why so many western nerds act like a female character being a mother is somehow wrong. Its like they don't want the human race to continue.....
The issue isn't becoming a parent, it's when that's all the character is.
Even then that's not even that bad. Only one that I think ended up being worse cause it was Videl. I think she should be more involve, on that note Gohan isn't that involved either.
Last edited by Bruma rabu on Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:21 pm

ABED wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:It still doesn’t account for Vegeta end of the courtship. I think we’re suppose to assume it was a brief consensual physical thing. And I’m not buying Vegeta has any interest in such things.
He's male isn't he?

In any case, just reading that Pan was in fact added to GT for the express purpose of being a damsel bugs me.
Same. It's like the writers completely forgot that she's a Saiyan and thus able to at least KEEP UP with characters like Goten, Gohan and Trunks. I get that she would have no interest in fighting but she would have an innate talent for being strong and stuff.

---

I'm gonna break down my issues with each character as well as talk about how they do have positive aspects that aren't being utilized.


- Bulma: The best example of a female character in Dragon Ball from an overall perspective. While Bulma is of course sexualized by Roshi and, years ago, Oolong, she's remained a strong and valuable character. Whenever somebody needs something invented, they come to her, be it spaceships, insta-forming costumes with a goofy helmet, repairing a spaceship or analyzing the Androids. Unlike Videl, she gains a motherly attitude without losing her drive or her core interests or her usefulness to the story. Her relationship with Vegeta is an odd one, and comes surprisingly early into his character arc considering he's still quite the antagonist, but with some work and a bit of love in Super it's been fleshed out adequately, and they have a fun dynamic together. And as pointed out earlier, while her pairing with Vegeta is originally just a way to get Trunks into the story, both the Cell and Buu arcs do a fair amount of work on the relationship, including Bulma's shock and confusion when Vegeta goes Majin. Not to mention Goku emphasizing her and Trunks to convince Vegeta to fuse with him.



- Chi-Chi: Chi Chi (who I'm still not sure officially has a hyphen in her name) starts as a one-off side character on the level of, say, Suno, who got a lot of love in anime filler and eventually came back much later. She's not very deep at first (which is understandable, she was only there for two Chapters), however her appearance in the 23rd TB shows that she has an inner fire to get what she wants. Honestly, one of the biggest shames of the franchise, particularly on Toriyama's end, has been the absolute refusal to explore the dynamics of this relationship. Particularly given HOW they get married (on the spot like it's Married At First Sight), there's been very little given to us to show why Chi-Chi loves Goku and why Goku loves Chi-Chi. There have been some brief moments, like Goku and Chi-Chi's moment together after recovering from the Heart Virus, or Goten revealing that Chi-Chi spars with him. That stuff's great! But unfortunately since DBZ episode 1, her character has, for some bizarre, insufferable reason, been reduced to Yajirobe x10. She complains about EVERYTHING the main characters do and shows ZERO lack of empathy for how important their actions are. Sometimes this works ("A mother should protect her son, not the world!"), but 99% of the time she seems completely unsympathetic to what the characters need to do. That works for a joke character like early Mr. Satan who's too much a fool to know any better, but not a character who showed evidence in the past of being capable of that sort of thing in the 23rd TB arc when Goku fought Jr.



- Videl: Videl starts off awesome because she's almost like 23rd TB Chi-Chi: she's got spunk, drive and things she wants to do, and not only is that thing NOT boys, it's fighting, which means it's pertinent to Dragon Ball's story! The story of her gradually falling in love with Gohan, and vice-versa, is one of Dragon Ball's best story moments because it happens completely naturally through Videl learning about Ki and how to fly. There are some obvious "intimacy" parallels with these scenes (Gohan tells Goten to go away before he shows her, for example), but the weird thing is that it works. More than that, their friendship is formed with these scenes, and their romance, and most significantly there's no direct "I love you. *kiss*" scene to confirm it. By the time Videl and Gohan meet up at the tournament grounds, we as an audience know that they're in love, and nobody has to say it on-screen. And despite this, she still has a strong drive towards fighting, to a fault as shown with Spopovic, and she has the characters around her like Gohan and her father to support her passion.

Which is why it's so FRUSTRATING that her character is now basically "soft Chi-Chi". I get that she needed to be a mother in Battle of Gods in order to make the Super Saiyan God ritual work, but there was really no need to make it so that, much like Chi-Chi, she's given up fighting altogether TO BE a mom. That was a DEFINING aspect of her character before this point (in the movies and filler she becomes Saiyawoman!), and the story has now thrown that all away. I mean, look at her character design. Does that look like a fighter to you? Because it looks like a mom in her newest clothing purchase to me. Someone needs to tell Toriyama that's it's possible to win the Tenkaichi Budokai AND put your kids to bed, not one or the other.



- Pan: Pan in Super is a lot harder to tell because she's still in the early Gohan stage of being a "prodigy", but honestly that itself is a bit concerning. Because right now Dragon Ball has four of these types of characters now: we have Gohan (who's in a bit of a slump right now), Pan, the future appearance of Uub and now the newly-introduced Broly. There's really only room for one or two of these types of characters, they can't ALL be "the one" prodigous character, can they? I feel like Pan, being an infant, will be the first to go because Broly just came in and Uub will be appearing later.

As for her appearance in GT, wow, what another wasted opportunity. As explained earlier, I understand that she wouldn't be interested in fighting like her mother was (and she honestly has a basic right to that), but being a Saiyan means that Pan does have some innate strength about her, and indeed she does know basic ki attacks, which technically puts her above her mother Videl. But GT is not at all interested in putting that to good use. She spends most of her time complaining about the situation she's put herself in and complaining with Giru, even AFTER they actually become friends. There's just nothing done with her character really despite being positioned as the third main character of the start of the show. If the writers did nothing with her, why was she put as a main character in the first place??

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:06 pm

Videl, honestly, is probably the best female character in the pre-revival Dragon Ball story. She’s not a reward for Gohan like 18 ended up being for Kurilin and she wasn’t just a human baby factory like Chi Chi. Her relationship with Gohan grew organically. She was feisty and had her own character arc; accepting this wacky world of weirdos she got thrown into. It’s a shame she was mostly in the sidelines after the Great Saiyaman arc but so was every other non-Saiyajin (and kind of Piccolo I guess) so can’t be too mad at that.


Bulma has a lot going for her in she’s not just t&a. Her tech knowledge kept her fairly important to the story. And I do like that her friendship with Goku developed from not giving a shit about Goku outside of his dragon ball and usefulness as a bodyguard to actually caring about him.
On the other hand the first arc was pretty gross with its overt sexualization of her...especially when she was 16.And she does end up reduced to just being the only available female for Vegeta to put a baby into. Not that she doesn’t do important things but she hardly acts like a character. At least Super seems to try to actually make Bulma and Vegeta seem like a genuine thing?


18 was probably the biggest missed opportunity. A girl who could keep up with the boys and was even, briefly, stronger than the second strongest character on the main cast. But her relationship with Kurilin just feels like Toriyama throwing the dude a bone.

Chi Chi is obviously the worst. She was created (or at the very least brought back from her one-shot appearance) so Goku could have a son. Her entire relationship with Goku is built on him kicking her in the privates and agreeing to a promise he didn’t understand. And then in the Z half she’s just there to be a nag to Goku and Gohan.

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:11 pm

I wish Chi-Chi and Videl had taken Tenshinhan and Gohan's place in the Tournament of Power. Gokuu and Chi-Chi teaming up would've been a lot of fun to see. Videl being a cute mama in battle and interacting with Piccolo would have also been a lot of fun.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by Shaddy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:49 pm

I think the issue with that sort of idea is that it's generally way too late to make sense. If Chi-Chi had contested Goku as well as she did at the 25th Tournament, and then kept fighting, that'd be one thing. If Videl and Gohan had taken on Buu together along with Goten and Trunks, that'd be one thing. But Chi-Chi stopped fighting entirely by the Saiyan saga, and Videl not only stopped fighting but basically stopped having a personality together after the Buu arc. Unless you do the Krillin thing and have one of them (as both at the same time would seem forced and needless) get back into martial arts for a good reason, with a lot of deliberation and development as to how this shit is supposed to pan out, it would just feel awkward and nonsensical for either of them to be considered good contenders for the Tournament of Power. It was already pushing it to have Tenshinhan and Roshi there, but neither have been proven weaker than Videl or Chi-Chi, and all of these characters have been settled deep in their roles in the background for long enough that it's bound to feel jarring either way. Also, Chi-Chi is just generally kind of unlikable and I don't feel like I need to see more of her at all. It's much easier to just create new characters that can function on the same level and progress in the same manner as existing ones.

18 is a weird exception, since she was already stronger than everyone alive except maybe Vegeta in the Buu saga, but by the time the ToP rolled around, most of them still only barely caught up to her and her brother, if at all. The fact that she even says "shouldn't I go? I'm still way stronger than you" to Krillin in the RoF saga just tells me they have no idea what the fuck to do with her.
Last edited by Shaddy on Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:50 pm

I'll go on the record and say I liked Pan. Even though power matters a lot in DB, I think putting her as the third person in the ensemble of the early half of GT was the right call. Purely from aesthetics, having a girl in the ensemble is more interesting. Having her start off as a bratty child gives the writers somewhere to go with her. The arc could've been more complete, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. I still wish she wasn't largely relegated to the girl who needed saving.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by ruler9871 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:Videl, honestly, is probably the best female character in the pre-revival Dragon Ball story. She’s not a reward for Gohan like 18 ended up being for Kurilin and she wasn’t just a human baby factory like Chi Chi. Her relationship with Gohan grew organically. She was feisty and had her own character arc; accepting this wacky world of weirdos she got thrown into. It’s a shame she was mostly in the sidelines after the Great Saiyaman arc but so was every other non-Saiyajin (and kind of Piccolo I guess) so can’t be too mad at that.


Bulma has a lot going for her in she’s not just t&a. Her tech knowledge kept her fairly important to the story. And I do like that her friendship with Goku developed from not giving a shit about Goku outside of his dragon ball and usefulness as a bodyguard to actually caring about him.
On the other hand the first arc was pretty gross with its overt sexualization of her...especially when she was 16.And she does end up reduced to just being the only available female for Vegeta to put a baby into. Not that she doesn’t do important things but she hardly acts like a character. At least Super seems to try to actually make Bulma and Vegeta seem like a genuine thing?


18 was probably the biggest missed opportunity. A girl who could keep up with the boys and was even, briefly, stronger than the second strongest character on the main cast. But her relationship with Kurilin just feels like Toriyama throwing the dude a bone.

Chi Chi is obviously the worst. She was created (or at the very least brought back from her one-shot appearance) so Goku could have a son. Her entire relationship with Goku is built on him kicking her in the privates and agreeing to a promise he didn’t understand. And then in the Z half she’s just there to be a nag to Goku and Gohan.
Post-Namek Bulma has more characterization and utility than she ever had previously (and always had more than 99% of the cast, male or female). How in the world is she hardly a character since then? That makes no sense at all.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:10 pm

Honestly can you name anything about her character post-Namek. She does things like create a time machine and an off switch for the Androids. And she gives birth to Trunks. But what can you legitimately say about her personality? She’s pretty much chilled the fuck out since her first story arc-Namek days. She doesn’t seem to have feelings toward Vegeta being a dead beat dad one way or there. She only really engages with the other characters for exposition (hey that’s Dr.Gero!)

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by Bruma rabu » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:Videl, honestly, is probably the best female character in the pre-revival Dragon Ball story. She’s not a reward for Gohan like 18 ended up being for Kurilin and she wasn’t just a human baby factory like Chi Chi. Her relationship with Gohan grew organically. She was feisty and had her own character arc; accepting this wacky world of weirdos she got thrown into. It’s a shame she was mostly in the sidelines after the Great Saiyaman arc but so was every other non-Saiyajin (and kind of Piccolo I guess) so can’t be too mad at that.


Bulma has a lot going for her in she’s not just t&a. Her tech knowledge kept her fairly important to the story. And I do like that her friendship with Goku developed from not giving a shit about Goku outside of his dragon ball and usefulness as a bodyguard to actually caring about him.
On the other hand the first arc was pretty gross with its overt sexualization of her...especially when she was 16.And she does end up reduced to just being the only available female for Vegeta to put a baby into. Not that she doesn’t do important things but she hardly acts like a character. At least Super seems to try to actually make Bulma and Vegeta seem like a genuine thing?


18 was probably the biggest missed opportunity. A girl who could keep up with the boys and was even, briefly, stronger than the second strongest character on the main cast. But her relationship with Kurilin just feels like Toriyama throwing the dude a bone.

Chi Chi is obviously the worst. She was created (or at the very least brought back from her one-shot appearance) so Goku could have a son. Her entire relationship with Goku is built on him kicking her in the privates and agreeing to a promise he didn’t understand. And then in the Z half she’s just there to be a nag to Goku and Gohan.
Idk if having 2 kids makes you a baby factory. She just wants what's best for her family. I mean she pretty much has to be the way she is for anything to get done in her house hold and some people(not just women) are contempt with that. From the get go she made it no secret that this is what she wanted, and she manage to fulfil her wish.
For 18 I can see where your coming from but I don't think that's what Toriyama was necessarily thinking. From the beginning she really had no interest in fighting. She didn't really have any kind of motivation. So he just probably didn't know what else to do with her.
Bulma is awesome... but chi-chi is best waifu :wink:

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:19 pm

Bruma rabu wrote: Idk if having 2 kids makes you a baby factory. She just wants what's best for her family. I mean she pretty much has to be the way she is for anything to get done in her house hold and some people(not just women) are contempt with that. From the get go she made it no secret that this is what she wanted, and she manage to fulfil her wish.
Existing for no reason other than the author wanted the main character to have a son makes her a baby factory. She exist (or was brought back) purely because Gohan has to come out of somebody and I guess Toriyama didn’t want it to be Bulma.

Her wanting the best for her family is fine, but the narrative rarelt treats her as anything other than a nag. We’re not suppose to agree with her despite her being somewhat in the right.

For 18 I can see where your coming from but I don't think that's what Toriyama was necessarily thinking.
She existed to be one half of a villain duo to replace the originally intended villain duo. Nothing wrong with that. Her continued use in the story after Cell rarely amounted to anything other than “Well Kurilin deserves a wife too”

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:21 pm

I wouldn't say she wants what's best for her family. There are far better ways of encouraging your kid's education. If you lived in a world where Piccolo Daimao existed, would you discourage your kid from learning self defense?
he just probably didn't know what else to do with her.
Not an excuse for a writer. If you have nothing else to do for them, then write them out.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by Bruma rabu » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:39 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Bruma rabu wrote: Idk if having 2 kids makes you a baby factory. She just wants what's best for her family. I mean she pretty much has to be the way she is for anything to get done in her house hold and some people(not just women) are contempt with that. From the get go she made it no secret that this is what she wanted, and she manage to fulfil her wish.
Existing for no reason other than the author wanted the main character to have a son makes her a baby factory. She exist (or was brought back) purely because Gohan has to come out of somebody and I guess Toriyama didn’t want it to be Bulma.

Her wanting the best for her family is fine, but the narrative rarelt treats her as anything other than a nag. We’re not suppose to agree with her despite her being somewhat in the right.

For 18 I can see where your coming from but I don't think that's what Toriyama was necessarily thinking.
She existed to be one half of a villain duo to replace the originally intended villain duo. Nothing wrong with that. Her continued use in the story after Cell rarely amounted to anything other than “Well Kurilin deserves a wife too”

Yeah, that's just how you see chi chi. There's nothing I can say that will change your mind. I'll just say that to me chi chi is much more than "baby making factory".
Bulma is awesome... but chi-chi is best waifu :wink:

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:39 pm

Shaddy wrote:I think the issue with that sort of idea is that it's generally way too late to make sense. If Chi-Chi had contested Goku as well as she did at the 25th Tournament, and then kept fighting, that'd be one thing. If Videl and Gohan had taken on Buu together along with Goten and Trunks, that'd be one thing. But Chi-Chi stopped fighting entirely by the Saiyan saga, and Videl not only stopped fighting but basically stopped having a personality together after the Buu arc. Unless you do the Krillin thing and have one of them (as both at the same time would seem forced and needless) get back into martial arts for a good reason, with a lot of deliberation and development as to how this shit is supposed to pan out, it would just feel awkward and nonsensical for either of them to be considered good contenders for the Tournament of Power. It was already pushing it to have Tenshinhan and Roshi there, but neither have been proven weaker than Videl or Chi-Chi, and all of these characters have been settled deep in their roles in the background for long enough that it's bound to feel jarring either way. Also, Chi-Chi is just generally kind of unlikable and I don't feel like I need to see more of her at all. It's much easier to just create new characters that can function on the same level and progress in the same manner as existing ones.

18 is a weird exception, since she was already stronger than everyone alive except maybe Vegeta in the Buu saga, but by the time the ToP rolled around, most of them still only barely caught up to her and her brother, if at all. The fact that she even says "shouldn't I go? I'm still way stronger than you" to Krillin in the RoF saga just tells me they have no idea what the fuck to do with her.
I don't see why one couldn't just write a quick excuse.

Gokuu: " Let's ask Chi-Chi! Still trains in her spare time!"

Videl: "Pan-chan is such a well behaved baby. I spend most of my time meditating to practice ki! Besides, Gohan-kun would rather go to his next lecture!"

Bam, simple excuse to write the scenario one wants to write.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by Shaddy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 pm

Because that would be kind of crappy writing. It wasn't good when they did it for most of the other Universe 7 members either.

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by Bruma rabu » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:43 pm

ABED wrote:I wouldn't say she wants what's best for her family. There are far better ways of encouraging your kid's education. If you lived in a world where Piccolo Daimao existed, would you discourage your kid from learning self defense?
he just probably didn't know what else to do with her.
Not an excuse for a writer. If you have nothing else to do for them, then write them out.
You know i probably would if my kid was 5 years old. I guess he should of written out piccolo, yamcha, tien, oolong, hurcule, master Roshi, etc.
Bulma is awesome... but chi-chi is best waifu :wink:

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:44 pm

Shaddy wrote:Because that would be kind of crappy writing. It wasn't good when they did it for most of the other Universe 7 members either.
Seems like a silly excuse to not just write the scenario one wants to write.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by Shaddy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:51 pm

I feel like "this would be a poor writing choice" is the absolute best reason to not write something anyone could ever have, actually.

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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:03 pm

Bruma rabu wrote:
ABED wrote:I wouldn't say she wants what's best for her family. There are far better ways of encouraging your kid's education. If you lived in a world where Piccolo Daimao existed, would you discourage your kid from learning self defense?
he just probably didn't know what else to do with her.
Not an excuse for a writer. If you have nothing else to do for them, then write them out.
You know i probably would if my kid was 5 years old. I guess he should of written out piccolo, yamcha, tien, oolong, hurcule, master Roshi, etc.
5 year olds aren't old enough to learn martial arts? Given they live in the woods away from civilization and in a world with super powerful villains, it wouldn't be a bad idea to not shelter your child.

Mr. Satan had plenty to do. Piccolo helped teach Trunks and Goten. Muten Roshi at the very least could provide some sage wisdom. As for Oolong, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan, yes, I'm all for writing them out if they don't add anything.
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Re: Lack of females characters in Dragon Ball

Post by KBABZ » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:06 pm

For Videl, one avenue I'd take if I were writing the story is saying that her involvement in the Super Saiyan God process allowed her to ever-so-briefly tap into something approach the strength and capabilities of a Saiyan (considering her hair went blonde and all). You can use that either as an explanation for a boost in strength and/or getting her interested in fighting again.

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