How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

[Doctor.]

It wouldn't matter much. SSG seems like a much bigger boost than SS4. At least how SSG was portrayed initially in BoG. New details on fusion may have retconned SSG to be weaker than what was previously implied.

Beerus was also supposed to be only 40% stronger than SSG Goku in BoG, but Super retconned it and he's now dozens, or hundreds or even thousands, of times stronger, so it would also depend on which Beerus we're talking about.

Of simply Beerus could have been lying about his strength when he fought Goku just to lead him on.

He tells Whis he used 70%, why would he lie?

[Dbzfan94]

Non Canon stuffs tend to be shit.

Resurrection F is "canon" and that's the worst thing to come out of modern DB by far.
Canon =/= good. Non canon =/= bad, especially considering there is no true canon in Dragon Ball

[TheMikado]

You have LITERALLY no proof of what you just said.

You can't be serious. Everyone knows that SSJ4 is very popular and most DB fans love this form, even people who hated GT mostly say that they actually liked SSJ4 and Gogeta. Meanwhile i hardly ever see people who consider SSJ Blue to be GOOD form, not even talking about BADASS or AWESOME except the biggest Super fanboys but those people think base Goku in Super can destroy universe so no one take them seriously lol.

Again. Show me the proof. Only meme pages like SSj4.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon ... ll_Archive

September 4th - September 11th, 2009
What is your favorite Super Saiyan form?
911 people voted in the poll, and Super Saiyan 2 was the clear cut winner.

False Super Saiyan - 17 votes, or 1.87%
Super Saiyan - 72 votes, or 7.9%
Ascended Super Saiyan - 21 votes, or 2.31%
Ultra Super Saiyan - 10 votes, or 1.1%
Full-Power Super Saiyan - 44 votes, or 4.83%
Super Saiyan 2 - 282 votes, or 30.95%
Legendary Super Saiyan - 75 votes, or 8.23%
Super Saiyan 3 - 140 votes, or 15.37%
Super Saiyan 4 - 225 votes, or 24.7%
I do not like Super Saiyans - 25 votes, or 2.74%

November 15th, 2010 - November 22nd, 2010
Which form of Vegeta is your favorite?
2383 people voted in the poll and Vegeta (Super Saiyan 4) was the clear cut winner.

Vegeta (Scouter) - 267 votes or 11.2%
Vegeta (Great Ape) - 28 votes or 1.17%
Vegeta (Super Saiyan) - 104 votes or 4.36%
Vegeta (Super Vegeta) - 139 votes or 5.83%
Vegeta (Super Saiyan 2) - 196 votes or 8.22%
Majin Vegeta - 565 votes or 23.71%
Vegeta (Super Saiyan 3) - 108 votes or 4.53%
Baby Vegeta - 63 votes or 2.64%
Vegeta (Super Saiyan 4) - 912 votes or 38.27%

[Cetra]

Again. Show me the proof. Only meme pages like SSj4.

Considering you made a factually phrased post about how non-canonical stuff tends to be shit you should not ask for any proof at all because you do not differentiate subjectivity from objectivity.

[Professor Freeza]

Again. Show me the proof. Only meme pages like SSj4.

Considering you made a factually phrased post about how non-canonical stuff tends to be shit you should not ask for any proof at all because you do not differentiate subjectivity from objectivity.

Proof is GT. A 64 episode of turd. I dont need to show anything else

[King13s]

Both the movie and the arc showed an angry SSJ2 Vegeta actually hurting Beers. SSJ4 could knock the wind out of Beers' sails, but at least when it still mattered, Hakai energy trumps mortal energy each and every time. The moment Beers got his second wind, SSJ4 would be brought down low. But SSJ4 can still be useful if Super Saiyan God is kept ritual only, and so is only used against Zamas' merged form, may need a new ritual though with less saiyans though.

Man... I would have loved this.
Imagine if that's what it was? They had BoG and we get this movie only form, or latter just a form that was a one shot. Goku both times was frustrated that SSG was not his own power. They had the perfect opportunity to bring in SS4 with a new name and new story. "While training with Whis, he commented that they don't have tails..." And then just in time for resurrection F we have Vegeta step up and just bam!
-Fans already have a knowledge of the form, so we don't need a show of how they got it.
-The red hair of Super Saiyan God and SS4(or whatever it's new name is) having red body hair makes more sense.
-Furthermore Gogeta in the future Trunks arc having Red hair is fully explained as being as strong as a Super Saiyan God.
-They could have brought Goten and Trunks to the tournament of power and had the ritual as a back up plan.
-Leading to Jiren getting ousted for a Good of Destruction Toppo vs the second coming of Super Saiyan God Goku.

But... Toriyama is writing the story so forward thinking is not the name of the game.

[Cetra]

Again. Show me the proof. Only meme pages like SSj4.

Considering you made a factually phrased post about how non-canonical stuff tends to be shit you should not ask for any proof at all because you do not differentiate subjectivity from objectivity.

Proof is GT. A 64 episode of turd. I dont need to show anything else

That is no proof. And yes, you need to show anything if you make a claim but you cannot because you do not understand the very definition of subjectivity and objectivity. You cannot go decide for yourself that a proof is whatever you want because that is not how it works. And if you'd know about objectivity you would understand that your opinion about GT is not able to prove your claim about a factually stated opinion right. This is youtube-level-arguing, what do you even gain from that? I suppose nothing so there is no meaning to this. I hope your professor title is supposed to show some kind of self-irony.

[miguelnuva1]

Non Canon stuffs tend to be shit.

The "non canon" Cooler is cooler than the trash Frieza became in Super. If 4 years ago someone would tell me that Frieza will become golden i would laugh at him saying he have read too many fanfics. The same goes for SSJ Blue tbh. And you actually know that SSJ4 is one of the most favourite form loved even by GT-haters while SSJ Blue tend to be hated even by greatest DBS fans.

SSJ4 on the other hand was superior all the time until Syn Shenron arrived.

It was until Super 17 arrived and absorbed his power.

Yeah, after he absorbed.
Rage Shenron deflected Goku's own Kamehameha X10 at him.
Naturon Shenron used Pan making Goku unable to go serious against him.
Nuova Shenron was faster but weaker.
Eis Shenron was playing dirty.

So none of them was actually stronger than Goku. Syn Shenron is the first and only enemy that was noticably stronger than Goku SSJ4 by himself and he still was fighting Goku when he was blind.

Meanwhile SSJ Blue was weaker than his very first enemy - Frieza after 4 months on training. Duh.
And all that "god ki" superiority has been proven to be a joke since non-gods were proven to be able to beat Goku and Vegeta or at least make them struggle a lot.

You know Golden ape Baby surpassed initial ssj4 Goku right?

[sunsetshimmer]

You know Golden ape Baby surpassed initial ssj4 Goku right?

He was only slightly stronger. Syn Shenron was the first one that by his own had noticable advantage.
If Baby didn't shoot on Earth, Goku would beat him, but he lost a lot of power after being hit by Baby's attack.
And when Goku got his full power back he was stronger than Baby with full power anyway.

[miguelnuva1]

You know Golden ape Baby surpassed initial ssj4 Goku right?

He was only slightly stronger. Syn Shenron was the first one that by his own had noticable advantage.
If Baby didn't shoot on Earth, Goku would beat him, but he lost a lot of power after being hit by Baby's attack.
And when Goku got his full power back he was stronger than Baby with full power anyway.

Goku charged up by Gohan, Goten Trunks and Pan is stronger than the ssj4 he started with.

Ssj4 Goku after recharge>golden ape Baby> initial ssj4 Goku is stated.

[Koitsukai]

Well, Goku ss4 was said (GT perfect files?) to be in the same tier as Super Vegetto from Z, which does make some sense if you go into the mentally we had back in late 90s and early 00s when Vegetto was the answer to everything just like Beerus is in Super, Goku had achieved a power similar to the unfathomable power of the strongest fusion/candy in the universe to face the even stronger threats at the time.
So, ss4 Goku equals Super Vegetto whose full power (ss2 or ss3) would not even be a match for Beerus, so no, not even the zenkai boosted ss4(mainly because the zenkai boost started to reach its limits when Gohan lost to Gotenksbuu) from end of GT would stand a chance against the Beerus shown in BoG(just like ssg didn't stand a chance either), not even wasting lines on the actual limit of Beerus that is Jiren's unseen-power-yet tier.

And that quote about Beerus using 70% of his power is just a bad translation but people still take it as the truth, there is no mention to the percental amount of power used (althouhg Beerus's power was retconed in every Super arc later on), only is said that it was a long time since he used that amount of power, which doesn't mean much, he used to bully shits like King Vegeta and Freeza. Beerus is that strong, sorry.

Although I don't think ssg is that much above ss4, i guess it is okay for people to disregard Goku's statement about full power Vegetto not being even enough to deal with Beerus but believing GT characters could actually take on him, I mean if peolple still believe in Jesus in the year 2018...

[sunsetshimmer]

You know Golden ape Baby surpassed initial ssj4 Goku right?

He was only slightly stronger. Syn Shenron was the first one that by his own had noticable advantage.
If Baby didn't shoot on Earth, Goku would beat him, but he lost a lot of power after being hit by Baby's attack.
And when Goku got his full power back he was stronger than Baby with full power anyway.

Goku charged up by Gohan, Goten Trunks and Pan is stronger than the ssj4 he started with.

Ssj4 Goku after recharge>golden ape Baby> initial ssj4 Goku is stated.

He didn't get any stronger. He only got his full power back.
He went beyond his limit in Shadow Dragons saga, not in Baby saga.
Initial SSJ4 Goku wasn't at full power. That's why Baby was a bit stronger. Bruits waves generated by Bulma were a lot stronger which made Baby full-powered after he turned into ape despite being beaten by Goku before transformation.

Well, Goku ss4 was said (GT perfect files?) to be in the same tier as Super Vegetto from Z, which does make some sense if you go into the mentally we had back in late 90s and early 00s when Vegetto was the answer to everything just like Beerus is in Super, Goku had achieved a power similar to the unfathomable power of the strongest fusion/candy in the universe to face the even stronger threats at the time.
So, ss4 Goku equals Super Vegetto whose full power (ss2 or ss3) would not even be a match for Beerus, so no, not even the zenkai boosted ss4(mainly because the zenkai boost started to reach its limits when Gohan lost to Gotenksbuu) from end of GT would stand a chance against the Beerus shown in BoG(just like ssg didn't stand a chance either), not even wasting lines on the actual limit of Beerus that is Jiren's unseen-power-yet tier.

And that quote about Beerus using 70% of his power is just a bad translation but people still take it as the truth, there is no mention to the percental amount of power used (althouhg Beerus's power was retconed in every Super arc later on), only is said that it was a long time since he used that amount of power, which doesn't mean much, he used to bully shits like King Vegeta and Freeza. Beerus is that strong, sorry.

Although I don't think ssg is that much above ss4, i guess it is okay for people to disregard Goku's statement about full power Vegetto not being even enough to deal with Beerus but believing GT characters could actually take on him, I mean if peolple still believe in Jesus in the year 2018...

Nothing like that was ever stated and it wouldn't make ANY sense.
It was clearly stated in series by both Goku and Baby (who had all Vegeta memories) that Super Baby 1 has the greatest saiyan power ever and Goku confirmed that he never felt ki as awesome as his. That includes SSJ Vegito. Proven by a fact, that Goku said fusing with Vegeta wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus (SSJG wasn't enough either tbh). It means Goku could tell how strong they were as Vegito. The same goes for (Baby) Vegeta.

Now, Baby Oozaru was about equal (it was chaning up and down during battle) to Goku SSJ4. Since Baby transformed into Oozaru, it means he got at least 10 times stronger than Super Baby 2, who alone was stronger than Super Baby 1. In short, SSJ Vegito from Z would beat Majuub at best since he was slightly weaker than Super Baby 2.

Not to mention that just as Beerus, Goku's power in GT was retconned as well.
SSJ Goku (and SSJ Vegeta as well) in Super 17 saga was somehow already much stronger than Majuub, who was a lot stronger than Goku SSJ3 in Baby saga. It means that Goku got at least 10 times stronger since then.

So even if Baby saga Goku SSJ4 would be equal to Vegito from Buu saga, in late GT he would be above hypothetical Vegito SSJ3 from Buu saga.

That's why that statement (that wasn't even in Perfect Files but a mere guidebook for a movie) never said anything about Buu saga Vegito. It was about Vegito overall.
What it tried to say is that hypothetical SSJ GT Vegito would be equal to SSJ4 GT Goku.