Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

[goku the krump dancer]

Some of you guys are treating Fusion as if its like how two positives equal a positive but a Negative+ a Positive is still a negative.. I dont think it works that way unless extreme opposites are involved in said fusion ala Black and Zamasu, with which the variables involved were all in the Kai's favor except for the immortality part (anime wise) sense 1. He's a higher order of being and 2. Even though its a saiyan body the soul is that of a Kai. so the merged form took primarily the look of Zamasu with some additions of Goku's body Including the Mortality. Mortality is like grease to immortality's water, the two arent supposed to mix but if they're forced to, what you get is some weird supped up regeneration thing. Thats the only time in the series where a negative and a positive equaled a negative with fusion.

Goku and Vegeta are completely compatible in every way almost down to the core, which is partly why Vegetto and Gogeta are so OP, they're pretty much the perfect fighter. The fusion normally has access to all of its Fusee's powers and abilities and then some. Goku can use SS3 and Vegeta is at the very least aware of it in the Boo arc and presumably chooses to ignore post Boo just because he understands the draw backs. There's no real reason to believe Vegetto or Gogeta cant use SS3 unless you just really don't want to which is fine but I guess, at that point we should just agree to disagree.

[Rakurai]

It's a permanent transformed state when it's first introduced, and Gohan is not physically capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form. In BoG and onward, it's treated as a form he can transform into, but that's not how it was when it was first introduced. At no point, at all, does he ever combine his Ultimate form (either its initial permanent state or the revised version of it being its own transformation) with his Super Saiyan form, even in circumstances when his life could have depended on it if he had the capacity to (like his fight against Gotenks Buu).

So at the time of the hypothetical, you have Gohan in a state where he physically, and permanently, cannot transform into Super Saiyan combining with someone that can, and Rou Kaioushin still said they'd be able to. So that is a perfect counter to your argument. Combine that with the skills carrying over even if only one person knows them, and you have two aspects supporting it vs. nothing contradicting it.

That is like saying at the time, Potara was supposed to be permanent. Well yes if you've only ever watched/read the original Z, but the subsequent story has refuted that.

So no, Ultimate Gohan was always able to transform SSJ as BoG has shown.

[Darkprince410]

That is like saying at the time, Potara was supposed to be permanent. Well yes if you've only ever watched/read the original Z, but the subsequent story has refuted that.

So no, Ultimate Gohan was always able to transform SSJ as BoG has shown.

The problem with going by that is that the Super manga still has it as a permanent transformed state, so dependent on the media, it's still a valid counterpoint. Besides, this was still Gohan fusing while in his Ultimate form (we can clearly see that he is in that form when Goku threw the earring at him and when he later found it), a form he cannot access Super Saiyan in, yet Rou Kaioushin indicated the fusion could still transform to Super Saiyan after. Regardless of whether or not it was a permanent transformation, Rou Kaioushin indicated that while knowing Gohan was going to be going into the fusion in a transformed state that he couldn't access Super Saiyan in.

[Grand Marshal 1]

About Vegito. Well, it is a bit off, but he was able to use Kaio Ken on top of Blue against Cumber and in the Manga, I think that after the fusion ends against Merged Zamasu, Vegeta comments that Vegito could use Perfected Super Saiyan Blue, despite Goku being the only one to have access to that form.

[Miracles]

Guys lets be real here, saying Vegetto could and can't go SSJ3 is really all speculation. Truthfully it was never stated or shown ANYWHERE.

[Rakurai]

The problem with going by that is that the Super manga still has it as a permanent transformed state, so dependent on the media, it's still a valid counterpoint. Besides, this was still Gohan fusing while in his Ultimate form (we can clearly see that he is in that form when Goku threw the earring at him and when he later found it), a form he cannot access Super Saiyan in, yet Rou Kaioushin indicated the fusion could still transform to Super Saiyan after. Regardless of whether or not it was a permanent transformation, Rou Kaioushin indicated that while knowing Gohan was going to be going into the fusion in a transformed state that he couldn't access Super Saiyan in.

Once again. Ultimate Gohan can access SSJ. This has been proven in BoG and both adaptations of Super. This is true, this is official, this is canon. I'm not going to argue this point any longer because you refuse to acknowledge it so you cling on to the possibility of SSJ3 Vegetto. Fucking Christ.

About Vegito. Well, it is a bit off, but he was able to use Kaio Ken on top of Blue against Cumber and in the Manga, I think that after the fusion ends against Merged Zamasu, Vegeta comments that Vegito could use Perfected Super Saiyan Blue, despite Goku being the only one to have access to that form.

We do not use SDBH to talk about Z because SDBH takes extreme liberties with franchise concepts. But besides, Kaio-Ken is a technique, not a transformation.

Vegeta never said that about Vegetto. In fact, there's another point that strengthens my case, Vegetto never used CSSB even though Goku could since Vegetto's SSB form was mainly showing the aura when battling.

Guys lets be real here, saying Vegetto could and can't go SSJ3 is really all speculation. Truthfully it was never stated or shown ANYWHERE.

It was never stated anywhere Vegeta couldn't go SSJ3, or that Gohan couldn't use the Makankōsappō, or that Goku couldn't go SSGSS2. Is this the logic you want to operate on?

[Miracles]

It was never stated anywhere Vegeta couldn't go SSJ3, or that Gohan couldn't use the Makankōsappō, or that Goku couldn't go SSGSS2. Is this the logic you want to operate on?

Yes, it's called truth. The story has to objectively clarify which character can do what. Just cause it was never stated they couldn't do something does not give the fans freedom to assume they can.

[ankokudaishogun]

It was never stated anywhere Vegeta couldn't go SSJ3, or that Gohan couldn't use the Makankōsappō, or that Goku couldn't go SSGSS2. Is this the logic you want to operate on?

Yes, it's called truth. The story has to objectively clarify which character can do what. Just cause it was never stated they couldn't do something does not give the fans freedom to assume they can.

If it's not explicitly stated they canNOT do something, then it gives the fans the freedom to analyze context and previous events to extrapolate a reasonable hypothesis.

In my opinion, Gotenks being able to go SS3 while neither components had the form(nor the previous form, SS2) is an element strong enough to believe Vegetto could have went SS3, while there is no element suggesting such thing was a specific ability of the Fusion Dance

[Dbzk1999]

Really not seeing why vegetto wouldn’t be able to use SSJ3. If he could use Instant Transmission (which vegeta has no idea how to do while goku does) I’m not seeing why he’s not able to use a form that his biology allows him to and one of the fusees knows how to do it.

[Miracles]

It was never stated anywhere Vegeta couldn't go SSJ3, or that Gohan couldn't use the Makankōsappō, or that Goku couldn't go SSGSS2. Is this the logic you want to operate on?

Yes, it's called truth. The story has to objectively clarify which character can do what. Just cause it was never stated they couldn't do something does not give the fans freedom to assume they can.

If it's not explicitly stated they canNOT do something, then it gives the fans the freedom to analyze context and previous events to extrapolate a reasonable hypothesis.

In my opinion, Gotenks being able to go SS3 while neither components had the form(nor the previous form, SS2) is an element strong enough to believe Vegetto could have went SS3, while there is no element suggesting such thing was a specific ability of the Fusion Dance

Yes, treat your analysis as opinion, I'm not against that but it's when people try to push it as fact.

I have a question, in the Daizenshuu listed by those who can go SSJ3 did it list Vegetto? Also was he listed as one who could go SSJ1 as well?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Literally, the only time Vegito was a Super Saiyan 3, was in Heroes, so it doesn't really matter does it?

[Darkprince410]

The problem with going by that is that the Super manga still has it as a permanent transformed state, so dependent on the media, it's still a valid counterpoint. Besides, this was still Gohan fusing while in his Ultimate form (we can clearly see that he is in that form when Goku threw the earring at him and when he later found it), a form he cannot access Super Saiyan in, yet Rou Kaioushin indicated the fusion could still transform to Super Saiyan after. Regardless of whether or not it was a permanent transformation, Rou Kaioushin indicated that while knowing Gohan was going to be going into the fusion in a transformed state that he couldn't access Super Saiyan in.

Once again. Ultimate Gohan can access SSJ. This has been proven in BoG and both adaptations of Super. This is true, this is official, this is canon. I'm not going to argue this point any longer because you refuse to acknowledge it so you cling on to the possibility of SSJ3 Vegetto. Fucking Christ.

Not while he's in his Ultimate form. Regardless of the retcon to how the Ultimate form works, Gohan CANNOT access Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form, as I quite clearly said. So it is still one member of the two that are fusing that physically cannot access the transformation at the moment of the hypothetical merging.

And again, this and the skills being passed over are still two points showing that one side is all that's necessary, when you in turn have given no evidence showing that both having it are necessary. All you've shown as "evidence" is that the databooks don't say one way or another whether it's necessary or not, which isn't evidence at all. It is up to you to provide actual evidence that both sides NEED the transformation in order for the fused warrior to be able to transform into said form as well.

I have a question, in the Daizenshuu listed by those who can go SSJ3 did it list Vegetto? Also was he listed as one who could go SSJ1 as well?

It doesn't, but the Daizenshuu only lists out transformations for those that either actually demonstrate it, or otherwise clearly have to have that form given what else is shown (i.e. listing Gotenks with Super Saiyan 2, because the character demonstrates Super Saiyan 3, and having Super Saiyan 2 is required for it).

[Mister_Popo]

Theoretically SSJ3 Vegetto could have been stronger than SSG, but definetely not stronger than Beerus and from a story point it does not make much sense he could have challenged Beerus.
At the end of the fight between Goku and Beerus, Goku said he had never thought that such a realm existed. He referred in the first place to "divine power", which would become the norm for usage in Dragon Ball Super.

Let's see:
Base Vegetto => SSJ3 Goku (x 400)
SSJ3 Vegetto (x 400) = (x 160 0000)
Enraged boost (x 5) -> as it brought ssj2 beyond ssj3 so at least x 5 = (x 800 000)

This is under assumption SSJ3 Vegetto existed in the first place, and a rage boost could have that massive effect.
A hypothetical "ferocious" SSJ3 Vegetto would therefore mean a multiplier of at least 800 000.
Goku knew after the fight how much power Beerus had used against SSG when he said Potara would not have worked, so he also knew that SSG Goku >>> SSJ3 Vegetto.
With God-Ki he knew how strong Beerus was, and he knew how far Vegetto would reach as he had been user of both SSJ3 and Potara-fusion.
That would mean that the ritual SSG had at least a multiplier of let's say 1 000 000 to make sense.

These are multipliers that are beyond the standards that were set during DBZ.
That fits perfectly with Goku's statement that divine power opened up a completely new realm of possibilities. And the statement Potara would not have worked anyway.
In other words, everything that was established in DBZ was left in the dust during the beginning of Super.
And then we haven't even taken into account the fact that Beerus may have fought less than 1% of his full strength.

I think we can easily say that a ferocious SSJ3 Vegetto would not have had a chance against Beerus, not in millions of years. Because he could not sense and use real divine power. Fighting against Beerus is a completely different ball game than the battles that we saw at the end of DBZ. That is what I think what Goku (and Toriyama) meant by that statement. SSJ Vegetto who fought Buuhan (who is below hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto anyway), the benchmark of DBZ, was surpassed by that time, while "the discovery of never thought possibilities during BOG" gave sense and birth to a new story.

[theherodjl]

Theoretically SSJ3 Vegetto could have been stronger than SSG, but definetely not stronger than Beerus and from a story point it does not make much sense he could have challenged Beerus.
At the end of the fight between Goku and Beerus, Goku said he had never thought that such a realm existed. He referred in the first place to "divine power", which would become the norm for usage in Dragon Ball Super.

Let's see:
Base Vegetto => SSJ3 Goku (x 400)
SSJ3 Vegetto (x 400) = (x 160 0000)
Enraged boost (x 5) -> as it brought ssj2 beyond ssj3 so at least x 5 = (x 800 000)

This is under assumption SSJ3 Vegetto existed in the first place, and a rage boost could have that massive effect.
A hypothetical "ferocious" SSJ3 Vegetto would therefore mean a multiplier of at least 800 000.
Goku knew after the fight how much power Beerus had used against SSG when he said Potara would not have worked, so he also knew that SSG Goku >>> SSJ3 Vegetto.
With God-Ki he knew how strong Beerus was, and he knew how far Vegetto would reach as he had been user of both SSJ3 and Potara-fusion.
That would mean that the ritual SSG had at least a multiplier of let's say 1 000 000 to make sense.

These are multipliers that are beyond the standards that were set during DBZ.
That fits perfectly with Goku's statement that divine power opened up a completely new realm of possibilities. And the statement Potara would not have worked anyway.
In other words, everything that was established in DBZ was left in the dust during the beginning of Super.
And then we haven't even taken into account the fact that Beerus may have fought less than 1% of his full strength.

I think we can easily say that a ferocious SSJ3 Vegetto would not have had a chance against Beerus, not in millions of years. Because he could not sense and use real divine power. Fighting against Beerus is a completely different ball game than the battles that we saw at the end of DBZ. That is what I think what Goku (and Toriyama) meant by that statement. SSJ Vegetto who fought Buuhan (who is below hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto anyway), the benchmark of DBZ, was surpassed by that time, while "the discovery of never thought possibilities during BOG" gave sense and birth to a new story.

Enraged Vegeta went from SSJ2-tier in the Boo arc to being a great deal stronger than Ultimate Gohan & SSJ3 Gotenks. The difference ought to be at least 30x the strength of normal Vegeta including his SSJ2, and it should be the same for Vegetto.

[PFM18]

Guys lets be real here, saying Vegetto could and can't go SSJ3 is really all speculation. Truthfully it was never stated or shown ANYWHERE.

It should be common sense that he could. If Gotenks can do it, then Vegetto can do it. It is that simple.

As far the "Gotenks trained!" excuse goes, it is a weak one. Goku literally just showed them how to do it and then they went into the ROSAT and tried it, and it worked. There's no reason to believe Goku as part of Vegetto, couldn't have gone SSJ3 himself. It isn't as though Gotenks went through these intense specific form of training that allowed him to do it, they learned how to do it, but Vegetto SHOULD already know how to do it.

[Mister_Popo]

Theoretically SSJ3 Vegetto could have been stronger than SSG, but definetely not stronger than Beerus and from a story point it does not make much sense he could have challenged Beerus.
At the end of the fight between Goku and Beerus, Goku said he had never thought that such a realm existed. He referred in the first place to "divine power", which would become the norm for usage in Dragon Ball Super.

Let's see:
Base Vegetto => SSJ3 Goku (x 400)
SSJ3 Vegetto (x 400) = (x 160 0000)
Enraged boost (x 5) -> as it brought ssj2 beyond ssj3 so at least x 5 = (x 800 000)

This is under assumption SSJ3 Vegetto existed in the first place, and a rage boost could have that massive effect.
A hypothetical "ferocious" SSJ3 Vegetto would therefore mean a multiplier of at least 800 000.
Goku knew after the fight how much power Beerus had used against SSG when he said Potara would not have worked, so he also knew that SSG Goku >>> SSJ3 Vegetto.
With God-Ki he knew how strong Beerus was, and he knew how far Vegetto would reach as he had been user of both SSJ3 and Potara-fusion.
That would mean that the ritual SSG had at least a multiplier of let's say 1 000 000 to make sense.

These are multipliers that are beyond the standards that were set during DBZ.
That fits perfectly with Goku's statement that divine power opened up a completely new realm of possibilities. And the statement Potara would not have worked anyway.
In other words, everything that was established in DBZ was left in the dust during the beginning of Super.
And then we haven't even taken into account the fact that Beerus may have fought less than 1% of his full strength.

I think we can easily say that a ferocious SSJ3 Vegetto would not have had a chance against Beerus, not in millions of years. Because he could not sense and use real divine power. Fighting against Beerus is a completely different ball game than the battles that we saw at the end of DBZ. That is what I think what Goku (and Toriyama) meant by that statement. SSJ Vegetto who fought Buuhan (who is below hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto anyway), the benchmark of DBZ, was surpassed by that time, while "the discovery of never thought possibilities during BOG" gave sense and birth to a new story.

Enraged Vegeta went from SSJ2-tier in the Boo arc to being a great deal stronger than Ultimate Gohan & SSJ3 Gotenks. The difference ought to be at least 30x the strength of normal Vegeta including his SSJ2, and it should be the same for Vegetto.

I stated "at least five" to keep matters somehow within reason for comparison, it could have been more, it could have been less.
Your point however does raise a number of questions.

Gohan, is he such a big reference point during BOG? He left a pretty weak impression during that arc, as during ROF.
After four years of studying and very few training, do you believe he was still the man he was during the Buu Arc?
It wasn't untill Gohans preparation for TOP he re-awakened his "true self" in front of Piccolo.
Gotenks had evolved to a rather comedic character during BOG whose butt was being slapped by Beerus. Was this the same fighter we saw against Super Buu?
Gotenks and SSJ2 Vegeta (the latter despite "My Bulma-show") were humiliated fairly easy by Beerus at the end, just like SSJ3 Goku.

Even if SSJ2 Vegeta was much stronger than SSJ3 Goku in comparison, my point stays the same and at the end it does not give much difference in the bigger scheme of things, it didn't give Vegeta any substantial difference over SSJ3 Goku against Beerus, where as the latters did rank SSG Goku as one of the utter best fighters he ever fought against. The difference in power is still utterly massive and doesn't give any benefits to SSJ3 Vegetto during a potential battle with Beerus in comparison to SSG Goku.

[Mister_Popo]

Yes, it's called truth. The story has to objectively clarify which character can do what. Just cause it was never stated they couldn't do something does not give the fans freedom to assume they can.

If it's not explicitly stated they canNOT do something, then it gives the fans the freedom to analyze context and previous events to extrapolate a reasonable hypothesis.

In my opinion, Gotenks being able to go SS3 while neither components had the form(nor the previous form, SS2) is an element strong enough to believe Vegetto could have went SS3, while there is no element suggesting such thing was a specific ability of the Fusion Dance

Yes, treat your analysis as opinion, I'm not against that but it's when people try to push it as fact.

I have a question, in the Daizenshuu listed by those who can go SSJ3 did it list Vegetto? Also was he listed as one who could go SSJ1 as well?

Bullseye. At the end the question if SSJ3 Vegetto exists is irrelevant. It does not prove whether Vegetto would be stronger than SSG or Beerus or not. It only makes a hypothetical BOG-arc Vegetto and SSG stronger, that's all the statement does actually. From a narrative point it does not defend or prove in any way why Vegetto would be able to surpass SSG nor Beerus.

[Miracles]

If it's not explicitly stated they canNOT do something, then it gives the fans the freedom to analyze context and previous events to extrapolate a reasonable hypothesis.

In my opinion, Gotenks being able to go SS3 while neither components had the form(nor the previous form, SS2) is an element strong enough to believe Vegetto could have went SS3, while there is no element suggesting such thing was a specific ability of the Fusion Dance

Yes, treat your analysis as opinion, I'm not against that but it's when people try to push it as fact.

I have a question, in the Daizenshuu listed by those who can go SSJ3 did it list Vegetto? Also was he listed as one who could go SSJ1 as well?

Bullseye. At the end the question if SSJ3 Vegetto exists is irrelevant. It does not prove whether Vegetto would be stronger than SSG or Beerus or not. It only makes a hypothetical BOG-arc Vegetto and SSG stronger, that's all the statement does actually. From a narrative point it does not defend or prove in any way why Vegetto would be able to surpass SSG nor Beerus.

Yep. People need to stop trying to spin the story. Beerus would of wasted any version of Vegetto/Gogeta. Super Saiyan god Goku is stronger than Vegetto too. This is a canon fact.

[PFM18]

Didn't realize that @Doctor. replied so I'll have to bring this conversation back a couple pages my bad.

It's the same form. This is the equivalent of arguing that Goku and Caulifla's Super Saiyan forms have different multipliers because one was achieved through rage and the other through a tingly back. You'd have more of a point in this case, actually, since the forms belong to different characters.

In every other situation, whatever semantics you want to use, whenever you come across something that is unexpected you ultimately need to come up with an explanation unless you are just persistent upon just whining about it. The possible explanations are:

1. The phrase "made the power his own" being explicitly stated means absolutely nothing and Goku has no idea how much power potara fusion would have yielded at the time.
2. That Kefla has a far more potent fusion than Goku and Vegeta since, ya know, they are different people and you said yourself.
3. Goku had already made the power his own, at least to some extent, so it doesn't yield the same boost that is superior to potara anymore.

Call it whatever you want, but your original response being about the first option definitely seems the least reasonable. I could easily say that you saying that Goku doesn't know what the hell he's talking about when he says fusion doesn't work is head canon.

Here: Jiren blocking Goku and Vegeta, Frost blocking Roshi, Freeza blocking Cabba, Goku blocking Ribrianne, so on and so on

Horrible examples. Frost had explicitly lower himself to Roshi's level out of worry that he would kill Roshi. Is it for plot convenience? Yes, but it is a valid explanation as to why Roshi wasn't one shot, because Frost thought that one shot could end up being a kill. Freeza blocked Cabba, because, ya knpw, they were similar in power?? That isn''t an example of what you are claiming it is because these are things that are supposed to illustrate huge differences in power. Once again you are arguing my point because Freeza goes Golden then INSTANTLY one shots Cabba when he does have a huge advantage in power. So again, there's plenty of examples of characters being one-shot. Ribrianne and Goku were similar in power at the time so that isn't a good example either.

I'm saying that visual evidence of "this character one shotted x character" or "this character didn't dodge from x character" doesn't matter because the show is random and arbitrary as to how it depicts its fights, and here you are giving me more evidence that the show is, indeed, arbitrary in how it chooses to depict its fights, so... thanks?

No, I was showing that characters with huge power advantages often one shot their opponents and when it doesn't happen that is the exception. Ya know, how you would expect that to work? Characters being one shot in this series when they are vastly outmatched? How is that arbitrary? You claimed that characters never one shot characters in this show even when there are huge power differences and I proved that wrong. Plain and simple.

So SSG uses God Ki, and that's the source of its power. And Goku absorbs the power of SSG into his SS form, but somehow he doesn't absorb the God Ki into it as well in spite of it being the source of SSG's power to begin with.

His Body got use to the power and he adapted to it, that's what was stated. It makes sense, and the fact that it didn't actually have God Ki, served to explain that the form itself wasn't absorbed and the mechanics of the transformations did not change. SSG isn't somehow suddenly unusable because the element of it that distinguishes it, is still plainly there. As proof that the mechanics of the transformations never changed, we see Vegeta caught up to Goku without any SSG absorption and their form's mechanics did not differ from each other.

In short, yes, it makes perfect sense if you aren't dead set on complaining about it rather than actually thinking about it for a second.

You're implicitly assuming that Toei was planning some kind of grand narrative where powerlevels make sense from start to finish and there's no kind of inconsistency or retcon at all in the 131 episodes and 4 self-contained arcs.

No, I have no idea on the matter and that is my entire point. I don't care to speculate about their intentions based on nothing.

[Rakurai]

Really not seeing why vegetto wouldn’t be able to use SSJ3. If he could use Instant Transmission (which vegeta has no idea how to do while goku does) I’m not seeing why he’s not able to use a form that his biology allows him to and one of the fusees knows how to do it.

Transformations & techniques are in different categories.

Vegetto went SSB against Merged Zamasu in the manga, but never completed it even though Goku could.

Yep. People need to stop trying to spin the story. Beerus would of wasted any version of Vegetto/Gogeta. Super Saiyan god Goku is stronger than Vegetto too. This is a canon fact.

That is also not fact. SSG Goku was also not enough, he got beaten by Beerus who can no-sell CSSB Vegeta's punch. There is uncertainty especially in light of subsequent events when base Kefla fodderized SSG Goku & base Gogeta could push Broly further than SSB Goku & Vegeta together ever could.

The problem with going by that is that the Super manga still has it as a permanent transformed state, so dependent on the media, it's still a valid counterpoint. Besides, this was still Gohan fusing while in his Ultimate form (we can clearly see that he is in that form when Goku threw the earring at him and when he later found it), a form he cannot access Super Saiyan in, yet Rou Kaioushin indicated the fusion could still transform to Super Saiyan after. Regardless of whether or not it was a permanent transformation, Rou Kaioushin indicated that while knowing Gohan was going to be going into the fusion in a transformed state that he couldn't access Super Saiyan in.

Bullshit, Super manga has his Ultimate as his natural state as it should be. Just like BoG.

Fighting Beerus in his natural, and therefore his "Ultimate" state:

Spoiler:

Then going SSJ to perform the ritual:

Spoiler:

Then he's seen back the same way:

Spoiler:

Elder Kai is also unreliable when it comes to Potara fusion. This was the same guy who claimed that Goku would remain permanently fused with whoever when obviously that's not true for mortals.

Then Kefla wonders if he can even use SSJ anymore. He responds back by saying he has no need to, not that he can't. Kefla affirms by questioning why he has no need to. The narrative makes it clear that Gohan, while he in principle could still go SSJ, chooses not to because of his new training regime.