Strength Checker

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

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Bussani
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Bussani » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:22 am

Nazi Cola wrote:I guess maybe it's just me, but if it's the same in Japanese, it's kind of relevant. :cry:
I don't see how it's relevant, but I could be missing something obvious. What does the missing line tell us about how strong they are?
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Nazi Cola » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:21 pm

Bussani wrote:
Nazi Cola wrote:I guess maybe it's just me, but if it's the same in Japanese, it's kind of relevant. :cry:
I don't see how it's relevant, but I could be missing something obvious. What does the missing line tell us about how strong they are?
Oh, I just think it's relevant because it mentions power, and this is the thread for power-related statements. But like I said, just my opinion on it.

@Saiga: Eh? I think you might be mixing up subjects.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Saiga » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:28 pm

Nazi Cola wrote:
@Saiga: Eh? I think you might be mixing up subjects.
Oh, sorry, I got mixed up somehow and thought the discussion was about Goku not sensing Gontenks' ki.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Bussani » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:22 am

Nazi Cola wrote:Oh, I just think it's relevant because it mentions power, and this is the thread for power-related statements. But like I said, just my opinion on it.
Ah, okay. Well, even if it mentions power, if it isn't a comment that shows how strong someone is, it's sometimes left out.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Herms » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:49 am

Nazi Cola wrote:I guess maybe it's just me, but if it's the same in Japanese, it's kind of relevant. :cry:
Unfortunately I don't have the manga with me now to check, but if I left that portion out at the time, I'd assume the Japanese version of that line has even less to do with strength than the Viz one.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Fox666 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:48 am

Saiga wrote:
Nazi Cola wrote:
Bussani wrote:Things that are irrelevant to the strength of a character are sometimes left out.
I guess maybe it's just me, but if it's the same in Japanese, it's kind of relevant. :cry:
I don't see how it's relevant to character strength. The way Goku talks implies that he can sense the unfused boys' ki as well, otherwise he'd just assume they weren't fused if he couldn't sense it (after all, they went into the room unfused, so it should really be the unfused boys' ki that went missing). So it seems being able to sense their ki from the Kaioshin realm doesn't say anything about their strength.

In SS3 Goku's case, it was more surprising that they could sense it when they weren't actively trying to.
I never tought of that, but thinking of it now I think you are right.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by smiley » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:42 pm

I asked this in another thread, but perhaps it's more relevant here.

Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”

I have been told that the word "and" can mean both "and" and "or". The word, I've also been told, is ya, which indeed, it appears, can have both meanings. However, I've also been told, the context suggests that it is more probable that he meant bringing both of them, since they have already been both brought to life, it wouldn't make sense to use "or".

Indeed, it seems it does sound weird to say "You brought back Gohan or Gotenks so he can fight", if they were already both brought back to life.

So?

And, also.

Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

Is it possible to tell from the Japanese version whether the word "just" is an adverb of time suggesting that an action had only recently taken place, or does it mean "only" - as in, Vegeta was only restored to life and nothing else took place (for example, his ki wasn't restored)

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Fox666 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:50 pm

I suppose "ya" would probably be translated as "or". But does it really matter? Goku is quite vague here, it's not like there is a way to know if "Goku and Gotenks" really means combining their powers. He is just guessing what Vegeta's plan is.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Bussani » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:40 pm

I'm still a beginner at Japanese, but I thought "ya" was more of an "and" than an "or". So now I'm curious if there's another way to use it.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Fox666 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:44 pm

I dunno. I can think that a way to translate "Vegeta 'ya' Trunks" that keeps the spirit would be "the likes of Vegeta and Trunks" but I am not sure if it really works. Perhaps "Vegeta, Trunks or so" is more accurate?

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by smiley » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:54 am

Fox666 wrote:I suppose "ya" would probably be translated as "or". But does it really matter? Goku is quite vague here, it's not like there is a way to know if "Goku and Gotenks" really means combining their powers. He is just guessing what Vegeta's plan is.
We'll talk about this once I get the translation confirmed. I don't want to waste words if translating it as "or" is equally correct.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Herms » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:53 pm

Bussani wrote:I'm still a beginner at Japanese, but I thought "ya" was more of an "and" than an "or".
Yeah, it's what you'd call a non-exhaustive "and".
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by smiley » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:56 pm

In the viz, I believe, there is a quote from Old Kaioshin before Gohan's saikyou ritual that says that the ritual will make him "the strongest under the heavens" or something like that. I have not seen any such quote in the Strength Checker. Did I miss it? If not, can someone tell me what the original says?

Also, Vegeta calls Goku "number 1" with reference to, apparently, his strength, in another translation I've seen. I have not seen that quote, either. Can someone tell me what the original says?

Both of these quotes could plausibly be said to be relevant to strength comparisons and should therefore be added to the Strength Checker list. What do others think?

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Saiga » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:56 pm

smiley wrote:In the viz, I believe, there is a quote from Old Kaioshin before Gohan's saikyou ritual that says that the ritual will make him "the strongest under the heavens" or something like that. I have not seen any such quote in the Strength Checker. Did I miss it? If not, can someone tell me what the original says?

Also, Vegeta calls Goku "number 1" with reference to, apparently, his strength, in another translation I've seen. I have not seen that quote, either. Can someone tell me what the original says?

Both of these quotes could plausibly be said to be relevant to strength comparisons and should therefore be added to the Strength Checker list. What do others think?
The "number 1" line is simply too vague.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:36 pm

Kaioshin's quote about Gohan:
Elder Kaioshin: “Wh-what are you talking about…?! Above their limits! Above! There de~~efinitely isn’t anyone else that incredible! [ ] Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.”
Couldn't find Vegeta's #1 quote about Goku, but I think that line is similar in just about every version.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Hitiro » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:28 am

Herms wrote:Yeah, it's what you'd call a non-exhaustive "and".
I have read that "Ya" is used specifically for making an incomplete list of things or, for a lack of a better definition, a list which includes other elements but doesn't necessarily define what they are. Basically like et cetera where you append it to a few examples but those examples aren't the only ones. Is this the correct meaning? Or is "Ya" more vague and general compared to this, such as, it could mean there are other examples but that may not necessarily be the case. As opposed to a more definitive version like et cetera where it means there are other examples.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Bussani » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:04 am

I thought I'd ask this here instead of in the translation request thread, since it's kind of strength related. It's about this line from the Cell arc:
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.7
Context: after Goku displays his power to Karin
Gohan: “…I wonder…Has father really become so incredible?...”
Viz translates this to something like, "That's funny... That can't be dad's full strength," which I think makes sense considering how we see Gohan think that Goku's holding back again when he fights Cell. I think it's also possible to interpret the above quote that way (like "Has father really become that incredible?" or "Is that really so impressive?"), but I don't know if the Japanese wording really lends itself to such a meaning. Can it be taken that way? Is it supposed to be? It seems to fit, but it's pretty ambiguous.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Hitiro » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:17 pm

Bussani wrote:I thought I'd ask this here instead of in the translation request thread, since it's kind of strength related. It's about this line from the Cell arc:
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.7
Context: after Goku displays his power to Karin
Gohan: “…I wonder…Has father really become so incredible?...”
Viz translates this to something like, "That's funny... That can't be dad's full strength," which I think makes sense considering how we see Gohan think that Goku's holding back again when he fights Cell. I think it's also possible to interpret the above quote that way (like "Has father really become that incredible?" or "Is that really so impressive?"), but I don't know if the Japanese wording really lends itself to such a meaning. Can it be taken that way? Is it supposed to be? It seems to fit, but it's pretty ambiguous.
The way its translated sounds a bit disrespectful to me. I feel like its close to being a snarky comment. As if he was saying "Yeah? So what?" perhaps this line doesn't read as bad in Japanese as it does in English but I honestly don't like the way Gohan talks about his father in this panel. Perhaps its just me, the wording just seems to not be as polite as I'd expect from Gohan.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Bussani » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:20 pm

I do think it's just how it sounds in English when you translate it this literally. The vibe I get from it is something like, "Really? Why are they so impressed when dad's so much more amazing than this?" But I have no idea if my vibe is right.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Herms » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:55 pm

I don't have the manga to check...but I definitely remember it implying that Gohan doesn't think the power Goku displayed is impressive (ie "is he really that incredible?"). In an indirect, polite, Gohan-ish way, but still. The Viz translation gets that across too, though "that can't be dad's full strength" sounds a little silly in light of how Goku just said it was only about half his full power.
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