Strength Checker

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

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Bussani
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Bussani » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:58 pm

Thanks for the clarification, Herms. Yeah, the Viz translation is a bit off in that regard. I had to assume it meant Gohan was saying that double what Goku showed couldn't be his full power, but it is an awkward way of saying it.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by khalildh » Tue May 06, 2014 7:46 pm

Hello Herms. I have a few questions that I am hoping you can clarify.

For the most part when you use the word "transformation" in your translations is that from a single word or phrase that is repeated throughout the original manga, or are you paraphrasing in order to get across a concept that is easily identified with the English word "Transformation". If the former can you conceptually define the Japanese word or phrase and then contextually explain how you use it throughout your translation and how it correlates to Dragonball. If the latter are you properly differentiating between different types of "transformations" or is the term used for the concept rather than any of the particulars.

I am bringing this up because of the recent interview answer from this websites translation of the Saikyo interview.
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
As I understand it, Frieza has transformations that allow him to become his true form, and that Saiyans can transform into Oozaru when they see a full moon. Saiyans also have the ability to transform into Super Saiyan, but what I am unsure of is that in the manga does it ever specifically reference an upgraded form of Super Saiyan as a new "transformation (irrespective of the regular Super Saiyan)". Physiologically the only main differences are the hair growth and muscle mass which doesn't really explain much when taking into how the only differences between the forms of Kaio-ken are Ki outbursts and the power differences.

Am I superficially creating a distinction or is the context explained in the original Japanese text?

Thank you for your time.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Herms » Tue May 06, 2014 10:41 pm

khalildh wrote:For the most part when you use the word "transformation" in your translations is that from a single word or phrase that is repeated throughout the original manga, or are you paraphrasing in order to get across a concept that is easily identified with the English word "Transformation".
It's pretty much always 変身/henshin, or sometimes 変化/henka.

変身/henshin (literally "change body") is pretty much just a transformation or metamorphosis; 変化/henka is a bit more general, so besides transformations as such it can just mean any change or variation. Also, the same kanji for 変化/henka can also be read as henge, in which case it refers to the kind of shape-shifting that Oolong and Puar do, or to those sort of shape-shifting creatures themselves.
As I understand it, Freeza has transformations that allow him to become his true form, and that Saiyans can transform into Oozaru when they see a full moon. Saiyans also have the ability to transform into Super Saiyan, but what I am unsure of is that in the manga does it ever specifically reference an upgraded form of Super Saiyan as a new "transformation (irrespective of the regular Super Saiyan)". Physiologically the only main differences are the hair growth and muscle mass which doesn't really explain much when taking into how the only differences between the forms of Kaio-ken are Ki outbursts and the power differences.
The word 変身/henshin is used at various points in the manga to refer to Freeza's transformations, the Oozaru transformation, the various Super Saiyan transformations, Zarbon's transformation, etc. Pretty much any transformation really.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Saiga » Tue May 06, 2014 10:49 pm

Herms wrote: The word 変身/henshin is used at various points in the manga to refer to Freeza's transformations, the Oozaru transformation, the various Super Saiyan transformations, Zarbon's transformation, etc. Pretty much any transformation really.
Gohan also uses it while he's the Great Saiyaman (even if he's already changed into the costume).
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by MajinVegetaSSj6 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:34 am

Herms, awesome job. Is there any chance to have a similar work on DBGT anime? I would like to know the original lines from Jap anime...

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Kaboom » Wed May 27, 2015 12:48 am

I'd be down for helping compile a GT Strength Checker too. It's a much shorter series and would take a lot less time overall to gather the quotes. But we'd still need a good handful of people to share the pain of watching it.
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Re: Strength Checker

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Hitiro » Wed May 27, 2015 9:56 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:That's already been done.
It's actually a bit sloppy. It needs re-working I think. I used this to check some points you made and some of the time stamps are inconsistent at least. Also it relies on whoever dubbed the episode. Something I'd rather someone like Herms do because at least if there is any doubt about something we can ask him. It's pretty hard to ask the person/s who dubbed the episodes why they opted for certain translations. The great thing about Herms Strength Checker is he uses notes to clarify things and give us insight into the language too. Stuff like Cell talking about more than just Vegeta and Trunks when they were battling Cell Jr's for instance. That sort of stuff is great for us to see the context of the sentence. Rather than writing out the translation and having some of the context lost. The same with some of the Japanese words like Boo shrinking pertaining to size or the different points on battle power versus Ki and how Vegeta sticks to using the phrase pretty closely through the manga.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Herms » Thu May 28, 2015 1:18 am

At the time, I wanted to follow up with a Strength Checker for filler and movies and GT and whatnot, but just doing the manga wore me out. Last year I thought maybe my batteries had recharged enough, but it turned out not to be. At least we've already got the Simmons subtitles for all of GT, which are as accurate as you'd want. Obviously the most work goes into assembling all the quotes and organizing them, which it looks like the other guys have already done. I suppose I could add notes and further context and whatnot, but again, I'm not sure I have it in me anymore. Stuff like this seems to be the best I can manage these days, trying to sum up the big picture rather than going further and further into every little detail.
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Re: Strength Checker

Post by jcogginsa » Thu May 28, 2015 8:42 pm

i really liked that thread. Though i was a bit disappointed by the final update

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:06 pm

So, Herms, since Dragon Ball Super is still fresh & small, how about starting a Strength Checker about it before it gets too big? Especially when we don't have official subs around yet, so we have to rely on fansubs, which aren't 100% trustworthy.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:55 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, Herms, since Dragon Ball Super is still fresh & small, how about starting a Strength Checker about it before it gets too big? Especially when we don't have official subs around yet, so we have to rely on fansubs, which aren't 100% trustworthy.
I second this. It'd be nice to have that for Super, and for it to be 100% accurate.:)

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by ahill1 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:29 am

Herms do you think Kaioshin > Piccolo? Throughout the context makes much more sense Piccolo be stronger than Kaioshin. Piccolo withdrew from the fight because discover who Kaioshin was; Piccolo say Kaioshin belongs to another order of being makes more sense considering the entire context.

Piccolo > Goku base ~ Yakon > East Kaioshin

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:24 am

ahill1 wrote:Herms do you think Kaioshin > Piccolo? Throughout the context makes much more sense Piccolo be stronger than Kaioshin. Piccolo withdrew from the fight because discover who Kaioshin was; Piccolo say Kaioshin belongs to another order of being makes more sense considering the entire context.

Piccolo > Goku base ~ Yakon > East Kaioshin
Kaioshin was not stated or implied to be weaker than Yakon. He knew that Babidi was gathering the most powerful beings in the universe, and he knew that Yakon had magical abilities. He was just cautious because he didn't know what Yakon was capable of, which is why he suggested Goku to fight him all together.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:06 pm

Kaioshin was actually scared of Yakon and was well aware of his capabilities before Bobbidi possessed him.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:34 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Kaioshin was actually scared of Yakon and was well aware of his capabilities before Bobbidi possessed him.
He was? What did he say?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:35 pm

I'd think Kaioshin wanting to team up on Yakon (instead of just stepping in and handing Yakon himself) does imply Yakon is stronger. It doesn't have to be a fact, but I don't see how Base Saiyans > Kaioshin isn't implied.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:48 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I'd think Kaioshin wanting to team up on Yakon (instead of just stepping in and handing Yakon himself) does imply Yakon is stronger. It doesn't have to be a fact, but I don't see how Base Saiyans > Kaioshin isn't implied.
But Yakon also had magical abilities. When did Kaioshin showed past knowledge of them?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:51 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Kaioshin was actually scared of Yakon and was well aware of his capabilities before Bobbidi possessed him.
He was? What did he say?
He immediately recognizes him as "the demon beast" Yakon and thinks a team attack is necessary after Goku dodges him for a bit. He also seems to be aware of his light eating power. There's also this little entry from the Daizenshuu:
Called a demonic beast, he's a monster which even Kaioshin is afraid of. He prefers pitch-black darkness, and so can see even in the dark. Though he tried to eat Goku and co., his most favorite meal is light.
With that, I think it's fair to assume Kaioshin is inferior to Yakon.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Strength Checker

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:51 pm

What magical abilities did he have besides eating light energy?

Also, Kaioshin would only need to see Yakon's movements to evaluate how strong Yakon is.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:When did Kaioshin showed past knowledge of them?
^ What Turlast said, and v

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P5.3-4
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s right! The demon beast Yakon eats light energy…! Goku’s energy after he becomes a Super Saiyan is probably the best food for him…!”

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