The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Lord Beerus]

SSJ Caba vs Gohan

This is an easy victory for Gohan.

[TobyS]

Ten and Kuririn can take all the Ginyus and the first three Freeza suppressions w/o hax moves. We know they can't take 100% Freeza w/o hax moves but we don't know what percentage of final Freeza they can beat?

70%? Seems like the max, base Goku BoG has to be above that and below 100% enough that Beerus thought he can't take Freeza w/o Super Saiyan 1.

Yeah, but is it really possible for Tien and Krillin to be that high? I mean, they are supposed to still be weaker than Base Goku back in the Android arc, Goku increased his strenght with the ROSAT training, making Base Goku way way stronger than Tien and Krillin. Krillin stopped his training, so he would still be weaker than Android arc Base Goku. Tien did keep up with his training, but he would still be below Krillin since Krillin is stated to be the strongest earthling, and if Krillin is weaker than Android arc Base Goku, then so it's Tien.

That's their UPPER limit contextually.

1. We know BoG Goku is weaker than 100% Namek Freeza.
2. We know that he is weaker with enough of a margin that Beerus didn't think he could have beaten Freeza. In other words if He was 90% of Freeza he could have pulled off a win and Beerus wouldn't be certain. Beerus also knows and even beat up Freeza once, so he knows he roughly how good a fighter he is so he could make a good estimate.
3. So if BoG Goku is 90% Freeza at most and the humans were never noted to have surpassed base Goku they are also below 90%.
4. The humans are never able to keep up with the super saiyans certainly, but there is never anything stated about them magically hitting a wall and never making large gains again. The closest we get is Tenshinhan saying "Cell is absolutely not someone I can fight" when turning down the chance to use the RoSaT. Now 2nd Form Cell is way way above a namek saga era super saiyan, so if this is a statement that could imply a current or lifetime limit to Ten it doesn't mean anything about Freeza and Base Goku. So this is him saying either ( A ) I could never beat Cell with any amount of training. Or more generously ( B ) Two years in the RoSaT still wont be enough to close the gap and the Cell problem will be over one way or another within a day so training for 50 years isn't an option.
5. People forget Goku was using Kaioken x10 most of the time fighting 50% Freeza. Then used Kaioken x20 on a over 50% less than 100% Freeza and failed to do any life threatening damage. In other words Goku had a tonne of room to grow his Base in the Cell and Buu sagas (like 20-50 times stronger) and still be weaker in BoG. Likewise the humans have a massive gap between Base Goku (Namek) and Base Goku (BoG) to slot themselves in.
6. The "humans never did any serious training methods like RoSaT/Gravity." I've never ever bought into this concept one bit. In my mind unless there is a unique godly teacher like Kami or Kaio, an advanced training method simply allows you to grow stronger *Faster* it doesn't have any bearing on raising your lifetime limit. Contextually they use these when an enemy is present who isn't going to sit by and give them a 7 year time skip to train. Otherwise the humans *would* have used the gravity room. And don't start with that baseless negative "they can't handle it" nonsense. They can handle x10 they could handle at least x11 or something. That fact we don't see them use it shows, logically, that they didn't have to
7. This one's a stretch but we know that at the BoZ the humans, having not even trained with Kami yet, weren't *that* far behind base Goku, if they have the capacity to be close to him, and we apply the Toriyama quote about everyone in BoG being at their peak, then we can see that the humans now having reached their peak, returned to their positions close to base Goku.
8. Finally there is the age old: "Why did they keep showing up to battles if they didn't get significantly stronger?" Before BoG came out and established what it established, using this logic I actually used to rate the humans even higher, Why show up to the Cell games if you aren't even stronger than Ginyu/base saiyans from the Trunks arc/Freeza, etc etc.

[dragonball0900]

Ten and Kuririn can take all the Ginyus and the first three Freeza suppressions w/o hax moves. We know they can't take 100% Freeza w/o hax moves but we don't know what percentage of final Freeza they can beat?

70%? Seems like the max, base Goku BoG has to be above that and below 100% enough that Beerus thought he can't take Freeza w/o Super Saiyan 1.

Yeah, but is it really possible for Tien and Krillin to be that high? I mean, they are supposed to still be weaker than Base Goku back in the Android arc, Goku increased his strenght with the ROSAT training, making Base Goku way way stronger than Tien and Krillin. Krillin stopped his training, so he would still be weaker than Android arc Base Goku. Tien did keep up with his training, but he would still be below Krillin since Krillin is stated to be the strongest earthling, and if Krillin is weaker than Android arc Base Goku, then so it's Tien.

That's their UPPER limit contextually.

1. We know BoG Goku is weaker than 100% Namek Freeza.
2. We know that he is weaker with enough of a margin that Beerus didn't think he could have beaten Freeza. In other words if He was 90% of Freeza he could have pulled off a win and Beerus wouldn't be certain. Beerus also knows and even beat up Freeza once, so he knows he roughly how good a fighter he is so he could make a good estimate.
3. So if BoG Goku is 90% Freeza at most and the humans were never noted to have surpassed base Goku they are also below 90%.
4. The humans are never able to keep up with the super saiyans certainly, but there is never anything stated about them magically hitting a wall and never making large gains again. The closest we get is Tenshinhan saying "Cell is absolutely not someone I can fight" when turning down the chance to use the RoSaT. Now 2nd Form Cell is way way above a namek saga era super saiyan, so if this is a statement that could imply a current or lifetime limit to Ten it doesn't mean anything about Freeza and Base Goku. So this is him saying either ( A ) I could never beat Cell with any amount of training. Or more generously ( B ) Two years in the RoSaT still wont be enough to close the gap and the Cell problem will be over one way or another within a day so training for 50 years isn't an option.
5. People forget Goku was using Kaioken x10 most of the time fighting 50% Freeza. Then used Kaioken x20 on a over 50% less than 100% Freeza and failed to do any life threatening damage. In other words Goku had a tonne of room to grow his Base in the Cell and Buu sagas (like 20-50 times stronger) and still be weaker in BoG. Likewise the humans have a massive gap between Base Goku (Namek) and Base Goku (BoG) to slot themselves in.
6. The "humans never did any serious training methods like RoSaT/Gravity." I've never ever bought into this concept one bit. In my mind unless there is a unique godly teacher like Kami or Kaio, an advanced training method simply allows you to grow stronger *Faster* it doesn't have any bearing on raising your lifetime limit. Contextually they use these when an enemy is present who isn't going to sit by and give them a 7 year time skip to train. Otherwise the humans *would* have used the gravity room. And don't start with that baseless negative "they can't handle it" nonsense. They can handle x10 they could handle at least x11 or something. That fact we don't see them use it shows, logically, that they didn't have to
7. This one's a stretch but we know that at the BoZ the humans, having not even trained with Kami yet, weren't *that* far behind base Goku, if they have the capacity to be close to him, and we apply the Toriyama quote about everyone in BoG being at their peak, then we can see that the humans now having reached their peak, returned to their positions close to base Goku.
8. Finally there is the age old: "Why did they keep showing up to battles if they didn't get significantly stronger?" Before BoG came out and established what it established, using this logic I actually used to rate the humans even higher, Why show up to the Cell games if you aren't even stronger than Ginyu/base saiyans from the Trunks arc/Freeza, etc etc.

1. That's true.

2. Yeah, true too.

3. Yeah, they have to be below 90%.

4. I don't think the humans need to have a large boost. Yeah, they could have a large boost. But remember, if the humans are as strong as you think they are, then they would also be stronger than Gohan in the Android arc. Gohan has a lot of high boosts, and in the Cell Games he only manages to be stronger than Goku but not by much, indicating that before the ROSAT, Gohan could've easily be weaker than Android arc base Goku or possibly at his level. The humans are stated to be weaker than Gohan, obviously since they didn't train with strong partners like Gohan did with Piccolo and Goku, as well as the fact that Gohan is known to have large boosts, even better than the humans.

5. As I said in point 4, it's not really possible for the humans to be that high.

6. Yeah there's no limit for them, I understand that. But as I mentioned in the other points, the humans don't have any reason to recieve a large boost, since there's no proof at all that they tried using a gravity room or something like how Vegeta did. They also trained by themselves, and didn't train with strong partners like how Gohan and Piccolo did. At most they would recieve the same gains as Goku did, since he was training with weaker partners so his strenght would've grown slower than the others. And yes, the humans would be capable of resisting the gravity room, but as I said, there's no proof that they tried doing it.

7. This doesn't make sense. Just because they were close to base Goku in BOZ, it doesn't mean that the same has to be applied in BOG. And they weren't at their peak, Krillin and Yamcha didn't train. And Goku's base was already getting stronger, to the point where he's already way stronger but not as strong as Frieza's 100% 120,000,000 power level. Krillin was weaker than Android arc Gohan, who should be around the same level as the Android arc base saiyans. Krillin is the strongest human, so Tien and Yamcha are below him. The gap between the humans and BOG Goku is very large, and I'm sure many people think the same.

8. So using that logic, Gohan and Krillin in the Buu arc would be stronger than their Cell arc counterparts because they showed up in the battles. That quote does not relate with how strong the characters are.

[dragon boss z]

SSJ Caba vs Gohan

Mystic Gohan curb stomps him. ssj2 Gohan wins, and ssj Gohan might even pull off a win, though I could see Cabba wining that one.

[Zamasu55]

SSJ Caba vs Gohan

Current Gohan one-shots him.

[Noah]

New matches:

Base Caulifla vs. Base Vegeta
Base Kale vs. Base Goku

[dragon boss z]

New matches:

Base Caulifla vs. Base Vegeta
Base Kale vs. Base Goku

Base Goku and Vegeta stomp. Saiyans with god power/Whis training vs a a thug and her lackey.

[MainJPW]

New matches:

Base Caulifla vs. Base Vegeta
Base Kale vs. Base Goku

Goku and Vegeta should win handily. We literally haven't even seen their bases in action.

[KentalSSJ6]

An oldie but I figured it would be interesting to bring up.

Future Gohan gains access to SSJ2, 3, and Mystic and runs a gauntlet starting with 17 and 18 onward. How far does he get in each form?

[dragonball0900]

An oldie but I figured it would be interesting to bring up.

Future Gohan gains access to SSJ2, 3, and Mystic and runs a gauntlet starting with 17 and 18 onward. How far does he get in each form?

Considering that Future Gohan was weaker or around Future Trunks (based on Future Trunks' confidence), and his version of the Mecha Frieza arc is weaker than Android arc Piccolo, who needs a x2 boost to be equal to the androids, then SSJ2 Future Gohan is not able to defeat the Androids. However, he can defeat all the SSJs from the Android arc, as well as Imperfect Cell and Kamiccolo if he uses his weights.
With SSJ3, he is able to defeat ASSJ Vegeta, as well as Cell Games Piccolo. And with Mystic, if we multiply his SSJ3 strenght, then he's able to defeat Fat Buu, but is weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

[Bullza]

Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black

[dragonball0900]

23rd Budokai Chi Chi runs the gauntlet vs:

- 21st Budokai Yamcha

- 21st Budokai Krillin

- 21st Budokai Goku

- 21st Budokai Roshi

- Akkuman

- Tao Pai Pai

- Goku (post Korin training)

- King Chappa

- 22nd Budokai Yamcha

- 22nd Budokai Krillin

- Tsuru

- 22nd Budokai Roshi

- Yajirobe

- 22nd Budokai Tien

- 22nd Budokai Goku

- Drum

- Cyborg Tao Pai Pai

How far can Chi Chi reach?

[mcdjbeatz]

23rd Budokai Chi Chi runs the gauntlet vs:

- 21st Budokai Yamcha

- 21st Budokai Krillin

- 21st Budokai Goku

- 21st Budokai Roshi

- Akkuman

- Tao Pai Pai

- Goku (post Korin training)

- King Chappa

- 22nd Budokai Yamcha

- 22nd Budokai Krillin

- Tsuru

- 22nd Budokai Roshi

- Yajirobe

- 22nd Budokai Tien

- 22nd Budokai Goku

- Drum

- Cyborg Tao Pai Pai

How far can Chi Chi reach?

I can see her being around 21st Budokai Krillin and Goku just from training with Gyumao considering that it would likely be similar training with a focus on strength like Roshi's because I don't know what else Gyumao could teach her given that Gyumao wasn't good enough to learn the kamehameha suggesting that he only has physical strength going for him. At best I can see Chi Chi beating 21st TB Krillin and but not Goku because of his access to the kamehameha and potential great ape transformation. I don't see her being able to beat any form of Roshi, she was called very strong by Roshi but she was put away quite easily just by the wind from one of weighted Goku's punches which was fast enough to be missed by the commentator but was seen by Roshi.

[Polyphase Avatron]

SSJB Cabba (assume he trains with Vados and unlocks the transformation) vs SSJB Vegeta

[Zamasu55]

Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black

Either Hit kills him right away or he's done for.

SSJB Cabba (assume he trains with Vados and unlocks the transformation) vs SSJB Vegeta

Vegeta still has at least 4 years of training in the RoSaT, so he wins.

[dragon boss z]

23rd Budokai Chi Chi runs the gauntlet vs:

Stops at 21st Goku.

[dragon boss z]

23rd Budokai Chi Chi runs the gauntlet vs:



How far can Chi Chi reach?

I can see her being around 21st Budokai Krillin and Goku just from training with Gyumao considering that it would likely be similar training with a focus on strength like Roshi's because I don't know what else Gyumao could teach her given that Gyumao wasn't good enough to learn the kamehameha suggesting that he only has physical strength going for him. At best I can see Chi Chi beating 21st TB Krillin and but not Goku because of his access to the kamehameha and potential great ape transformation. I don't see her being able to beat any form of Roshi, she was called very strong by Roshi but she was put away quite easily just by the wind from one of weighted Goku's punches which was fast enough to be missed by the commentator but was seen by Roshi.

Pretty much what he said.

[Noah]

Hit vs Super Saiyan Rose Black

If this is SSJR Black (scythe) vs. Hit (fully improved) resorting to all his deadly techniques, I think it would be a great match, that in the end Black would win but fall apart afterwards.

[Steven Bloodriver]

An oldie but I figured it would be interesting to bring up.

Future Gohan gains access to SSJ2, 3, and Mystic and runs a gauntlet starting with 17 and 18 onward. How far does he get in each form?

1) Super Saiyan 2 Future Gohan would molly-whop both Future Android 17 and Future Android 18. Mecha Frieza, King Cold, and all their Soldiers would even stand less of a chance. While Super Saiyan Goku would tire out and forfeit in the sparring match against his son. Cooler, Final Form Cooler, and his Armored Squadron would have been no match. Dr. Gero would have been killed by both Future Gohan and Yamcha. The evil Android 19 would have dealt with by Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Future Gohan. Really, Future Gohan would only stop once he reaches the likes of Super Perfect Cell or even Majin Vegeta, as the Super Saiyan 2 transformation depicted in Dragon Ball Z is powerful enough to overpower Legendary Super Saiyan Broly from Dragon Ball Z: Burn Up!! A Close, Intense, Super-Fierce Battle, and freaking kill the even more powerful Super Perfect Cell.

2) Super Saiyan 3 Future Gohan would have ended the Majin Buu Saga and declare a draw between him and his father from the beginning of Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods. But even as a Super Saiyan 3, he would have not have been able to stand up to Beerus, and would have only done just moderately better than Son Goku, if he had been able to tap into his rage during the battle in Other World.

3) Mystic Future Gohan would have beaten Super Buu on the spot, unlike Ultimate Gohan. Held his own just long enough to regain the edge against the far more powerful Buutenks once the latter reached his time-limit, and tapped into his rage to overpower Buuhan, right after having enough of the self-proclaimed Terror of the Universe trying to mock him and his family line. However, like before, Future Gohan would not have been able to beat Beerus. As even as a very powerful Mystic Saiyan, the son of Goku would have needed to train his ass off under the tutelage of his fathers to defeat the God of Destruction in a one-on-one battle.

[dragonball0900]

Cell Games Piccolo runs the gauntlet vs:

Android 16

Imperfect Cell

SSJ Trunks

SSJ Vegeta

Semiperfect Cell

ASSJ Trunks

ASSJ Vegeta

Perfect Cell (who fought against ASSJ Vegeta and USSJ Trunks, his Cell Games version is not allowed)

USSJ Trunks (with and without speed restriction)

50% Cell Games Goku

How far can he reach?