The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[kn83]

New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)

1. Vegito stomps
2. Kefla easily
3. Destruction Toppo according to Toriyama, Zamasu according to anime.
4. Gogeta SSJ4 wins in fraction of second. You can't be serious with this question...
5. GT Goku. DBS SSJ Goku was still struggling with Ultimate Gohan, but base GT Goku could beat SSJ GT Gohan who was stronger than DBS Ultimate Gohan.
So in base power levels, GT Goku is far above DBS Goku.
DBS Goku might be better trained, but in raw power he would be fodder to GT Goku.

You got it backwards. GT is fodder compared to Super and that's an undeniable fact. SSJG Goku has better feats than anyone from GT. Powerscaling wise, no one from GT is above galaxy level (and only a few GT characters even reach it), while SSJG Goku showed universal feats with a few punches. Then Goku and Vegeta adsorbed god into their base and became even stronger since.

Also, DBS Gohan is Massivisely stronger than GT Gohan, especially since training for the ToP as he was able to push Goku into using SSJB. Battle of Gods Goku easily solos all of GT.

[Sora Saiyan]

New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)

1. Vegito stomps
2. Kefla easily
3. Destruction Toppo according to Toriyama, Zamasu according to anime.
4. Gogeta SSJ4 wins in fraction of second. You can't be serious with this question...
5. GT Goku. DBS SSJ Goku was still struggling with Ultimate Gohan, but base GT Goku could beat SSJ GT Gohan who was stronger than DBS Ultimate Gohan.
So in base power levels, GT Goku is far above DBS Goku.
DBS Goku might be better trained, but in raw power he would be fodder to GT Goku.

You got it backwards. GT is fodder compared to Super and that's an undeniable fact. SSJG Goku has better feats than anyone from GT. Powerscaling wise, no one from GT is above galaxy level (and only a few GT characters even reach it), while SSJG Goku showed universal feats with a few punches. Then Goku and Vegeta adsorbed god into their base and became even stronger since.

Also, DBS Gohan is Massivisely stronger than GT Gohan, especially since training for the ToP as he was able to push Goku into using SSJB. Battle of Gods Goku easily solos all of GT.

I don't understand the thing with people taking about Gohans might in GT since this interview was released and stated this. Unless the people saying that haven't seen it.

What were some concepts and such that unfortunately got shelved?
I was given quite a bit of freedom working on GT, so aside from whether they were animated or not, the ideas were limitless. For each character, plenty of subplots existed that never made it to the screen.
For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku, but in GT, he’s a scholar who’s given up fighting almost entirely. But for someone who had given up fighting like that to return to the front lines, I thought that naturally there needed to be quite a bit of drama involved.

The rest of the interview details the idea of an episode or two that never made it which was about Gohans return.

[sunsetshimmer]

You got it backwards. GT is fodder compared to Super and that's an undeniable fact. SSJG Goku has better feats than anyone from GT. Powerscaling wise, no one from GT is above galaxy level (and only a few GT characters even reach it), while SSJG Goku showed universal feats with a few punches. Then Goku and Vegeta adsorbed god into their base and became even stronger since.

Also, DBS Gohan is Massivisely stronger than GT Gohan, especially since training for the ToP as he was able to push Goku into using SSJB. Battle of Gods Goku easily solos all of GT.

GT PAN IS MULTI-ULTRA-HYPER-UNIVERSAL+++++++

I don't understand the thing with people taking about Gohans might in GT since this interview was released and stated this. Unless the people saying that haven't seen it.

What were some concepts and such that unfortunately got shelved?
I was given quite a bit of freedom working on GT, so aside from whether they were animated or not, the ideas were limitless. For each character, plenty of subplots existed that never made it to the screen.
For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku, but in GT, he’s a scholar who’s given up fighting almost entirely. But for someone who had given up fighting like that to return to the front lines, I thought that naturally there needed to be quite a bit of drama involved.

The rest of the interview details the idea of an episode or two that never made it which was about Gohans return.

Why did you cut out the "rest of the interview" saying that Gohan in GT came back as the same super-warrior he became against Super Buu to fight Super 17?
Base GT Gohan = Ultimate Gohan in power
Also, Perfect Files clearly stated Gohan didn't stop training after Z.
Also, base Gohan wasn't hurt by Rildo's punches despite Rildo being stronger than Buu. Any non-ultimate version of Gohan in Z had no single chance against any form of Buu.
Also, Baby was impressed with Gohan's power despite taking Rildo's power before, meaning full-power Gohan in GT is stronger than Rildo.

Meanwhile, DBS Gohan is only on his DBZ level + few hours of training. He is equal to base GT Gohan at best.
SSJ GT Gohan is far stronger than DBS Ultimate Gohan

[Sora Saiyan]

I don't understand the thing with people taking about Gohans might in GT since this interview was released and stated this. Unless the people saying that haven't seen it.

What were some concepts and such that unfortunately got shelved?
I was given quite a bit of freedom working on GT, so aside from whether they were animated or not, the ideas were limitless. For each character, plenty of subplots existed that never made it to the screen.
For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku, but in GT, he’s a scholar who’s given up fighting almost entirely. But for someone who had given up fighting like that to return to the front lines, I thought that naturally there needed to be quite a bit of drama involved.

The rest of the interview details the idea of an episode or two that never made it which was about Gohans return.

Why did you cut out the "rest of the interview" saying that Gohan in GT came back as the same super-warrior he became against Super Buu to fight Super 17?
Base GT Gohan = Ultimate Gohan in power
Also, Perfect Files clearly stated Gohan didn't stop training after Z.
Also, base Gohan wasn't hurt by Rildo's punches despite Rildo being stronger than Buu. Any non-ultimate version of Gohan in Z had no single chance against any form of Buu.
Also, Baby was impressed with Gohan's power despite taking Rildo's power before, meaning full-power Gohan in GT is stronger than Rildo.

Meanwhile, DBS Gohan is only on his DBZ level + few hours of training. He is equal to base GT Gohan at best.
SSJ GT Gohan is far stronger than DBS Ultimate Gohan

Around the Super 17 arc in the animation, he came back as a super-warrior all of a sudden, but actually, I personally wanted to put in a heroic episode telling the reason he started fighting again. For instance, people he loved, like Videl, had been hurt, and when in the depths of anguish, he happened to open up his wardrobe, inside was his dōgi from fondly-remembered times. Together with the line, “To think there’d come a day I’d wear this again…”, he brushes off Chi-Chi, who in tears is trying to stop him, and makes a shocking, lightning entrance on the battlefield. Considering the status of the character, I wanted to spend one or two episodes showing that level of resolve, and I recall having even written the plot for it. But it’s a subplot that diverges from the main story, I guess you could say, so due to various circumstances, it never came to fruition, and it ended up stopping at the level of, he takes off his glasses, and takes on the eyes of a warrior. (laughs)

I can’t tell everything, but including both things that made it to animation and things that were shelved, I believe that GT is the crystallization of all the ideas that were spun together like that in that atmosphere of freedom.

Didn’t see the point in posting that as it doesn’t say what you said it does, it serves no purpose, and adds nothing to my point.

No where does it say he became what he was against Buu. It just calls him a super Warrior, which he was. Also this doesn’t directly contradict the Perfect Files, it says he’s gave up fighting almost entirely, but he could still be training, and even if he has almost gave up training entirely, he still hasn’t given it up totally. Either way this interview makes it sound like Gohan did fall below his Ultimate form from Z.

End of the day Super and GT are both a mess, but at least UI Goku has put an end to the debate as to which is stronger as he is labelled as the “strongest Son Goku in history”

I’m not getting into a speculative debate on which is stronger because they both do weird things, of course the feats for Super are ridiculous but I’m not going to start a debate on that.

[sunsetshimmer]

Didn’t see the point in posting that as it doesn’t say what you said it does, it serves no purpose, and adds nothing to my point.

No where does it say he became what he was against Buu. It just calls him a super Warrior, which he was. Also this doesn’t directly contradict the Perfect Files, it says he’s gave up fighting almost entirely, but he could still be training, and even if he has almost gave up training entirely, he still hasn’t given it up totally. Either way this interview makes it sound like Gohan did fall below his Ultimate form from Z.

End of the day Super and GT are both a mess, but at least UI Goku has put an end to the debate as to which is stronger as he is labelled as the “strongest Son Goku in history”

I’m not getting into a speculative debate on which is stronger because they both do weird things, of course the feats for Super are ridiculous but I’m not going to start a debate on that.

"For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku"
"Around the Super 17 arc in the animation, he came back as a super-warrior all of a sudden, but actually, I personally wanted to put in a heroic episode telling the reason he started fighting again."

So while you might argue that Baby saga Gohan is weaker than Ultimate Gohan, Super 17 saga Gohan is pretty much stated to be at least equal to Ultimate Gohan in base. And he still has SSJ.
DBS Gohan probably is better skilled, but in raw power GT Gohan at SSJ would demolish him. He would win against base GT Gohan at best.
SSJ Gohan is 50 times stronger remember.

"strongest Son Goku in history" statements like that do not count GT for two reasons. GT is set in future, about 10 years from now, also, it isn't canon and Toriyama simply do not count GT when making DBS. So while i believe UI actually could beat SSJ4, this statement means nothing tbh. It's a marketing phrase.
When BoG movie was released, Beerus was said to be strongest enemy Goku faced. I don't want to argue whether Beerus is stronger than Omega Shenron or not, but this statement obviously didn't count Omega. Also, movie Beerus was a lot weaker. His power got retconned in later arcs of DBS. I personally don't believe movie or early DBS Beerus (that used 10% on Vegeta) would have any chance against Omega. And statement was about movie Beerus then, not the current powered-up Beerus.

[Sora Saiyan]

"For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku"
"Around the Super 17 arc in the animation, he came back as a super-warrior all of a sudden, but actually, I personally wanted to put in a heroic episode telling the reason he started fighting again."

So while you might argue that Baby saga Gohan is weaker than Ultimate Gohan, Super 17 saga Gohan is pretty much stated to be at least equal to Ultimate Gohan in base. And he still has SSJ.
DBS Gohan probably is better skilled, but in raw power GT Gohan at SSJ would demolish him. He would win against base GT Gohan at best.
SSJ Gohan is 50 times stronger remember.

"strongest Son Goku in history" statements like that do not count GT for two reasons. GT is set in future, about 10 years from now, also, it isn't canon and Toriyama simply do not count GT when making DBS. So while i believe UI actually could beat SSJ4, this statement means nothing tbh. It's a marketing phrase.
When BoG movie was released, Beerus was said to be strongest enemy Goku faced. I don't want to argue whether Beerus is stronger than Omega Shenron or not, but this statement obviously didn't count Omega. Also, movie Beerus was a lot weaker. His power got retconned in later arcs of DBS. I personally don't believe movie or early DBS Beerus (that used 10% on Vegeta) would have any chance against Omega. And statement was about movie Beerus then, not the current powered-up Beerus.

Ya know just because he used the term Super-Warrior twice doesn’t mean it’s the same as Ultimate Gohan, especially in the way Super Warrior was used, it wasn’t even structured as a comparison between the two. Also the Super-Warrior term isn’t used to refer to a specific Gohan, it was used far to vaguely when referring to both Gohans, but in particular it wasn’t even close to being the focal point of the Ultimate Gohan statement. “He was a super warrior with might surpassing Goku”. The super warrior part is just thrown in there, it’s not referring to that being anything in particular, its just a vague statement, basically Vegeta and co would also fit the bill of Super warriors. It isn’t used as “The Super Warrior” it’s just “a Super Warrior” ala back in Z, Gohan wasn’t called a golden warrior, he was the Golden warrior.

Anyway the anime seems to have made out that Gohan in his new Ultimate form is a monster, especially when he challenged Blue Goku, and before that nobody even came close to SSJG, even Gohans ultimate form in BoG was something Beerus paid no attention too, so let’s not try and work on any sort of scale with current Gohan.
When base Kafla could stomp SSJG Goku but her SSJ form was more equal to SSJB, does that mean Blue is more that 50x God? Since it allowed Goku to keep up with SSJ Kafla better than normal SSJG could keep up with Base Kafa. Super can be given a ridiculous scale, when base Vegeta could demolish SSJ3 Gotenks, and his base form just continued to become multiple times stronger, as we know normal SSJB could fight Hit on earth, but back in the ToP he had to use KKx10. And then you have the regular forms with God miles above them and Blue possibly being 50x over that. I’m not gonna debate this because they’re both a mess, but I’m just saying you can make a point for both being much stronger than they should reasonably be.

The strongest Son Goku in history line can be used, as it was out of universe, in universe, yeah, it wouldn’t include GT, but this very well can. And wasn’t Beerus labelled the strongest in the history of Z. It was when he still being called Birusu around these parts. Either way SSJG was a massive jump back then, and it could be argued it put Goku above SSJ4 by a lot as it surpassed Vegetto by a great deal, since he didn’t think a world like that could exist, and we know he thought of fusing in that movie. So there’s an argument for Beerus there too, there’s no ceiling for them but at the same time you could claim they’re below, it’s such an awkward comparison.

[Zamasu55]

New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)

- If we go by statements, Jiren (ep. 110) was stated to be much stronger than everyone U7 has faced before.
So, Corrupted Zamasu is no match for him, but he fought well against SsjB Vegito (who was slightly stronger though). Anyway, LB Vegeta is MUCH stronger than that, so he's above Vegito himself. Facts.

- Kefla is much stronger, but we have to remember that Hit's secret attack managed to stop Jiren, and the assassin lost only because the Pride Trooper trascends time itself. I think he might be Kefla with that.

- Is this a joke? Toppo destroys him in an instant.

- Pass...

- Probably DBS Goku.

[Zamasu55]

1. Vegito Blue wins. He was implied to be Beerus level in the manga while LB Vegeta is only equal to SSB KKx20

So what? The manga is not the anime. For god's sake, SsjB Vegito in the anime is nowhere strong as Beerus.

[kn83]

1. Vegito Blue wins. He was implied to be Beerus level in the manga while LB Vegeta is only equal to SSB KKx20

So what? The manga is not the anime. For god's sake, SsjB Vegito in the anime is nowhere strong as Beerus.

LB Vegeta is only SSB KKx20 level. He fought all-out with to Toppo who is WAY weaker than Jiren. The statement by Toyotaro is the only official clue we have about Blue Vegito's power, so he stomps current Vegeta either way.

[dragonball0900]

Base Goku Black vs Golden Frieza (ROF)

Who do you think wins? Remember that Black was able to hold his own agaisnt SSB Vegeta, and also that both Goku and Vegeta got stronger between these arcs (training on the ROSAT for 3 years, etc). Golden Frieza also has stamina issues and all of that.

[kn83]

Base Goku Black vs Golden Frieza (ROF)

Who do you think wins? Remember that Black was able to hold his own agaisnt SSB Vegeta, and also that both Goku and Vegeta got stronger between these arcs (training on the ROSAT for 3 years, etc). Golden Frieza also has stamina issues and all of that.

Base Black wins. Frieza's stamina problems at the time plus the fact that Base Black is relative to post-Champa arc SSJ2 Goku means Base Black should be stronger.

[Zamasu55]

1. Vegito Blue wins. He was implied to be Beerus level in the manga while LB Vegeta is only equal to SSB KKx20

So what? The manga is not the anime. For god's sake, SsjB Vegito in the anime is nowhere strong as Beerus.

LB Vegeta is only SSB KKx20 level. He fought all-out with to Toppo who is WAY weaker than Jiren. The statement by Toyotaro is the only official clue we have about Blue Vegito's power, so he stomps current Vegeta either way.

I repeat, LB Vegeta is stronger than ep. 110 Jiren who was confirmed to be far above everything U7 has faced. End of. This is a statement we can't ignore.

[dragon boss z]

Base Goku Black vs Golden Frieza (ROF)

Who do you think wins? Remember that Black was able to hold his own agaisnt SSB Vegeta, and also that both Goku and Vegeta got stronger between these arcs (training on the ROSAT for 3 years, etc). Golden Frieza also has stamina issues and all of that.

Base Black wins. Frieza's stamina problems at the time plus the fact that Base Black is relative to post-Champa arc SSJ2 Goku means Base Black should be stronger.

What? Even current ssj2 Goku would be one shot by RoF Golden Frieza. Even current SSG would probably lose if Frieza was serious in killing him quickly.

[dragonball0900]

That's true. I have Golden Frieza from ROF below Base Goku, yeah. But I don't see why SSJ2 Goku post Champa arc would be above that.

[kn83]

Base Goku Black vs Golden Frieza (ROF)

Who do you think wins? Remember that Black was able to hold his own agaisnt SSB Vegeta, and also that both Goku and Vegeta got stronger between these arcs (training on the ROSAT for 3 years, etc). Golden Frieza also has stamina issues and all of that.

Base Black wins. Frieza's stamina problems at the time plus the fact that Base Black is relative to post-Champa arc SSJ2 Goku means Base Black should be stronger.

What? Even current ssj2 Goku would be one shot by RoF Golden Frieza. Even current SSG would probably lose if Frieza was serious in killing him quickly.

You are forgetting the 3 years of training in the ROAST after RoF and the fact that Base Black could withstand hits from SSB Vegeta (before zenkais). Base Black could easily be above RoF arc SSJB and Frieza.

[dragonball0900]

You are forgetting the 3 years of training in the ROAST after RoF and the fact that Base Black could withstand hits from SSB Vegeta (before zenkais). Base Black could easily be above RoF arc SSJB and Frieza.

Yes, I agree that Base Base Black is above Golden Frieza and ROF SSJ Blues. That's true. They trained on the ROSAT and all, they surely have to be stronger than before. However, that doesn't explain why you thought SSJ2 Goku is that high. That's just SSJ2, not Blue form or the like. The thing is, Black was suppressed against SSJ2 Goku, they said that in the series. They both were suppressed actually.

[dragon boss z]

Base Black wins. Frieza's stamina problems at the time plus the fact that Base Black is relative to post-Champa arc SSJ2 Goku means Base Black should be stronger.

What? Even current ssj2 Goku would be one shot by RoF Golden Frieza. Even current SSG would probably lose if Frieza was serious in killing him quickly.

You are forgetting the 3 years of training in the ROAST after RoF and the fact that Base Black could withstand hits from SSB Vegeta (before zenkais). Base Black could easily be above RoF arc SSJB and Frieza.

So what if they trained? They got a couple times stronger, but that doesn't mean ssj2 ever got close to any version of SSB.

[TheDipDap1234]

Yamcha (EoZ) vs Captain Ginyu (Z)
ChiChi vs Tambourine
Hit (current) vs Android 17 (current)
Android 18 (love boosted) vs Monna
Kid Trunks and Goten vs 1 Cell jr.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

No, just what you think are facts are not facts.

I know you'll be triggered from this reply, but please try to calm down and grasp what I'm trying to tell you

Isn't that exactly what I'm telling you? You think that you're speculative arguments are gonna prove anything, but they aren't, because they're all speculations. You're just trying to stick to your opinion and can't handle the fact that you can't disprove my argument. All you're doing is SPECULATE. I'll show you the definition, if you lack the meaning of it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Again, what you're doing is speculating scenarios which never happened. You're trying so hard to stay relevant, and I can't believe you even survived this long on the Versus Thread, because you aren't debating. You ridiculed me in this comment and talk very strong while all of this tone is a contradiction to your true ability of debating. You are speculating. This is as simple as it can get.

My offensive manner isn't for me to be a douchbag, but it is for you to look at yourself. You might as well be triggered from what I say, but that would show all the more than you hate to lose or admit your mistake. Again, you aren't countering my main argument which is supported factually by the show, and evident by scans which I provided. You keep saying things like "I think", "Probably did-", "Maybe"...etc. Such Key words are not meant to be used when you're arguing over something and debating somebody else over it. You have to be concrete and solid, which you're clearly missing.

And stop acting like you are the superior debater

It doesn't take a genius to figure that an argument factually supported > speculative talk. All you're doing is speculate arguments and ignoring my argument which is backed up without refuting then act as if you're doing a fine job. I'm not acting, since I have no reason to do so. The fact that you thought I'm doing so shows more that you yourself can't handle me in this due to my arguments being, probably, superior to yours...? Considering that I have the show with me, you might have gotten troubled given you're only speculating (sarcasm). Again, if you calm down and not get triggered, then it's better

You are pulling things quite far and trying too hard to argue on something, despite the fact that you're only speculating, which leads me to believe that I'm better than you.

Here are some elements to be taken into consideration about debating properly:

[spoiler]1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions

2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me

3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)

4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful

5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it

6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.

7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.

8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur

9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.

10.) People who are used to Debating Often.[/spoiler]

Speculation is not Knowledge ~ Robert M. Price

That's something you need to understand and grasp, since you're not remotely trying to show evidence or simply you cannot, thus you're resorting to speculation, given you can't even counter me at all

Make a comic vine account and lets do a CaV of SSG Goku (BoG arc) vs current base Goku. Other members vote on who they think debated better and not who they think would actually win. I bet you I would be the winner so if you want to keep up your "I'm the superior debater" attitude then take up my challenge. If not stop claiming your argument blows min out of the water.

This is as childish as you can get eh? There is absolutely no reason for me to go and make an account their just so that I could see other people's opinions. It's OBVIOUS that you're desperate to the point you're looking for people's opinions now, and you think that they will prove that you're right? If you can't prove yourself against me to the point you want others to help shows all the more that I'm more superior in debating than you. Using your logic I can tell you to hop on to Google+ and DragonBallZAmino, make a poll on who debated better and I "bet" you I would "win".

It's a given that People who argue with evidence > people who only use speculation to back themselves up. You hold no credibility at this point, so if you want to redeem yourself, learn from your mistakes and not get triggered and increase the speculative manner and claim you're better.

Comicvine is the same community which most of its members has Goku at best Multi-Planet Buster. I'm not here to challenge you on going to that community and see who wins, I myself know I'm superior, and you only use speculations while I'm using evidence.

No you just think what you are showing are facts.

No you just think what I'm showing you isn't facts You're only speculating everything so that it comes by to your own beliefs which honestly all the less interesting of a debate. Ignoring my evidence and saying it isn't facts without backing yourself up means I'm winning here and your point would mean void

If we just go off of statements alone, all we know is ssj Goku surpassed his SSG state. When Goku destroys the final blast in base form that was just a moment of him reaching deep down to stop the blast, it was never stated "base Goku surpassed SSG".

If we go by statements, feats and Implifications which you blatantly ignored, Not only Ssj Goku surpassed SsjG Goku BoG, but base Goku also did. I already clarified this but you ignored which is no longer surprising. It was never stated SSjB Goku is Stronger Than King Piccolo" so King Piccolo > SsjB Goku, and that's exactly your logic. It was shown later on feat-wise and Implification wise that Goku's base far surpassed anything he ever showed in BoG. Goku You're speculating it was for a moment, despite Goku stating and implying that he surpassed his limits in front of Beerus, and later it's shown Goku is even stronger in base than what he ever showed against Beerus, but no, your Speculation > Proof. Well, sarcasm off, It is shown and proven. If you can't refute that properly with evidence, you lost, no matter how much speculative talks you have up your sleeves.

Of course he would try to win, and if they transformed to Vegito he would of tried to win as well. And I do agree SSG is above Vegito, I just don't think it's by too much.

Goku wasn't just "trying", he thought he could beat Beerus, the same character who knocked Ssj3 Goku with utmost ease who's supposed to have Gotten as strong as he could have possibly gotten, and that's talking about Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yet BoG Vegito is no match for Beerus, who SsjG Goku was thought to have been capable of beating Beerus. Failed Ritual Goku was thought to have been SsjG by even Vegeta who knew of Vegito's power and obvious inferiority to Beerus. This shows how you speculated:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You are entitled to your own opinion, I have no obligation to say you can't have your own. However, you cannot use that opinion which is not backed up at all in a debate, unless you can support it which you CLEARLY can't other than using speculation.

No, I showed you plenty more logic than that.

You clearly haven't, and I'm not her to lie about you anyways. You clearly speculated everything you said

Base Goku was hurt by a bullet because he got "rusty"

How does this correlate with the issue of Base Goku vs SsjG Goku BoG? Absolutely Nothing, so this renders this trial futile. Also, using this would also mean you're trying to say that Kid Goku is sturdier than Current Base Goku, and Goku has actually got stronger which is later shown in the Tournament of Power, and I clarified this which, eh, not surprisingly, you ignored.

Krillin made him go ssj

If you want to claim that Krillin hasn't gotten much stronger then you'd be implying that Base Goku is barely Namek Saga Tier, so stop speculating the power of Krillin. Krillin doing that Goku only shows he got stronger as on episode 75 and 76 it was clearly shown that Krillin gotten so strong he learned to perfectly control his Ki which is exactly similar to what Goku has been learning.

Krillin controlled his Ki and was able to combat Fake Super Shenron who Goku states he could combat with only if he goes full power (in general, so this could very well relate to base Goku), and Roshi also states and implies that Krillin back then rose beyond his earlier powers. Fake Super Shenron and the rest of the clones are all based on Goku's and Krillin's energy and was considered a threat by Goku. Krillin got far stronger than back then according to Goku and troubled Gohan and beat him.

You're just speculating Krillin is weak, while this shows he isn't, despite the other fact that Goku was holding back given that he showed later on that his Base is beyond Krillin

Frost made him go ssj

That's all a terrible speculation. How are you saying Frost is weak? He forced Goku to Go Ssj in the Universe 6 Arc and NOWHERE has it been shown that Frost is weaker than SsjG BoG but quite the opposite. In fact, in the Tournament of Power Arc, Frost made Hit go serious for a bit:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Frost being God Tier has no trouble. Saying frost pushes Vegeta to go Ssj proves your point is frankly denial as it doesn't, because you're speculating that Frost is weak, which he showed not to be so.

Buu beat him in their sparring match

That's some top notch speculation of Fit Buu's strength which you, OF COURSE, came up with and ignored the fact that he got stronger. Fit Buu got stronger, unknown by how much, but enough to beat Goku in his base form. That's all we need, and you speculating he hasn't gotten much stronger ain't gonna prove anything since Vegeta in 6 months became God Tier, Frieza in 4 months became God Tier, and Gohan in a couple of hours became High-End God Tier.

he can still go SSG

I guess Goku's current base form is weaker than Namek Saga Ssj Goku because he can go Ssj. Him being able to go SsjG absolutely proves nothing, because that's just a TRANSFORMATION. I hope you can grasp this, but it's just a TRANSFORMATION. Goku only ABSORBED its POWER, so it has nothing to do with transforming to SsjG.

Krillin survived his punch to the face

Base Goku survived a punch from Mutated Merged Zamasu so I guess he's at that level! Surviving =/= Relative in power, so this is ALSO invalid

he had trouble with the trio de danger, ect.

Having trouble with the Trio De Dangers proves nothing. Nice going, speculating that Bergamo (he's part of them) isn't God tier despite going up against such level of strength. Goku struggling with them makes absolutely no sense, or he's holding back against Basil and Lavender, since by that logic you're using, Basil would be superior to Bergamo

Also, there's evidence that the Super Saiyan Blue form Goku used Against Bergamo is inferior to His Regular Super Saiyan form which he used Against Toppo, yet his SsjB form is stated to be a power which rivals the gods, and Bergamo pushed that while being amped by the Kamehameha. This also explains why Base Goku is shown to he throwing Bergamo with utmost ease

Unless you want to say the trio de dangers got stronger, your point is invalid.

There are plenty of examples of him being below SSG in base and I mentioned them before, you just brush it off as everyone is SSG level... That clearly isn't the intention Toriyama had in mind.

I'm not brushing anything, you're just using speculations all over the place and use things which have nothing to do with your point. You ignored almost all my argument so that speaks for itself upon You. You don't suggest what's Toriyama's intention since based on the factual materials I provided Akira's intention would be for Goku's base to surpass SsjG which is what he did directly in BoG Movie. You, on the other hand, bash everything and claim you're right.

So I'm a "better" debater is a right statement.

That would only be the case if Vegeta can go SSG too, but that is never shown. If Goku is the only one who can go SSG that means he is using power from the ritual to go SSG.
It is shown in the manga that Vegeta can go SSG, but SSG never had a time limit in the manga.

Mmmmm ok so? What you're saying absolutely has nothing to do with what I'm saying, so you went out of the topic, albeit purposedly. Goku going SsjG doesn't mean he's doing so by the Ritual, he just acquired the form and this only contradicts the point which was made in BoG that it was a time-limit transformation. SsjB is a Super Saiyan stacked ON Super Saiyan God so SsjG existed ever since RoF but was never shown to us.

Whis was referring to gods, not every random fodder from other universes.

That's another example of speculation which you clearly is doing. Come on mate Whis CEAELY said it IN GENERAL, he didn't say the gods if destruction. Stop claiming everybody to be fodder because that's utter facepalming speculation. This is utter speculation you pulled which is NEVER said to be the case. You're funny, and yet you're telling me I'm an inferior debater? You're speculating while I'm providing evidence. Big difference.

Except that there is a statement that flat out says base Goku can't beat Frieza, so that proves that you ignore some statements to.

I'm not ignoring any statement, but you're sticking so much to this statement while ignoring all other confirmations from the Buu Saga and the show itself that you're about to worship this statement, mind you. Guides, show and context disagree. Beerus stating this was all based on what he watched from Whis, and Beerus knows shit.

Proof of Beerus knowing shit about Goku is Beerus stating that Ssj Goku's Power is at best only slightly above Frieza and at best that's all he can do, despite that being atrocious in every possible aspect, which leads us to believe that it's a contradiction of Beerus is simply provoking Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Everything in the show disagrees with you. That's enough on its own. I'm not drifting the course of the debate into another one, so leave the Base Goku vs Frieza argument for later.

And don't say "because it is contradicted" because base Goku being above SSG is contradcited as well in some cases.

It was never contradicted and you haven't shown me where is it contradicted except by using speculation. Even if we want to say there are 2 to 3 points which contradict it, they hold no candle in front of concrete horde of evidences. See the difference? You should have recognized the difference by now. Base Goku < Freeza is contradicted more than it is supported, and you can't change that and I'm gonna say it over and over.

I agree in his fight with Beerus wearing the Monaka costume he did seem SSG level, but then at other times he doesn't. This is the problem of different writers working on different episodes.

"Other times"? There aren't other times at all mate. More than 20 evidences are out there which prove that Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG. That's enough

Saonel and Pirina only became ultimate Gohan level after powering up, and when they did that Piccolo became fodder to them. Only his special beam canon could really injure them.

Here you go again, speculating that Gohan hasn't gotten stronger. By your logic SsjB Goku is at best Buutenks level, since Ultimate Gohan rivaled SsjB Goku. Gohan got far stronger than he already was which was stated by Piccolo that he still has room to grow in strength and he'll take that option, and he did so. Saying Gohan is only Buu Saga Tier is cringy, because clearly he isn't. Piccolo hasn't become fodder much at all, as he was STILL relative to them despite it being slight.

You act like that's impressive. Golden Frieza was already above SSB Goku in the RoF arc, so Frieza probably didn't have to get that much stronger to catch back up. He probably got a couple times stronger at most.

Yes it is impressive since Goku got astronomically stronger in the Tournament of Power which I showed and clarified but you, with no surprise, ignored it. This is an example of you speculating BIG TIME:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Probably? So he didn't get stronger much because you think he didn't based on your own thoughts which originated from thin air? You could have went and made your own research or even read my argument which has the show beside it but you obviously, not surprisingly, ignored it.

Yes I know, which is why I do think it is possible for his ssj form to be SSG level. But he never said that while in base.

Yet it was later stated, shown by feats and implies that his Base far surpassed his Super Saiyan state from BoG which kept on surpassing SsjG BoG at an alarming rate.

[/quote]

I know, you missed the point. The point was that if Goku went ssj3 he would of been stronger than Beerus in the movie version. However he didn't do that. The only logical explanation is that he couldn't. So even though in the Super version where Beerus was way more than 8x stronger than him, if Goku couldn't even get from 60% of Beerus to over 100% of Beerus in the movie version, it is possible he couldn't power up the same way in the anime version.

What? I'm still not sure why you're comparing BoG to Super in the aspect of the scale Akira invented which is retconned by DBS. You're speculating this which is shown by how you're saying "it is possible", meaning there's a huge room for doubt and it isn't supported. I do get where you're coming from, but that is completely rendered invalid by the fact that if we follow this logic, we'll have to force the God scale into DBS. Goku in DBS hasn't recognized he got back to Ssj so him not going any further makes sense as he continued to fight as a Ssj, and hasn't noted anything like failing to transform.

Another point about the movie is that Whis said Beerus went 70% against Goku, but that was general which includes the moment where Beerus was going to eradicate Goku. That moment forced Goku to give up, which made him realize his utter inferiority. The 6, 10 and 15 scale might not mean 60%, 100%...etc since that's a fan calculated extended version of the God scale, and we don't know if this scale works linearly or exponentially. So that's out of the point either way.

Stopping that attack in base was just a cinematic choice that was supposed to be epic. It wasn't the writers intent to show "hey look base Goku is stronger than ssj Goku now".

You don't choose what's to be taken literally and what's Not. The same episodes were titled to have Goku surpass SsjG and this was represented by how Goku referenced himself and one's own limits of power, which was a direct reference to power. Either way, everything shown to us is to be taken into consideration

At some point you tried to argue this way claiming every single 50+ evidence to be the writers "Fucking up" or not intending the scans to mean that way, which you can't judge that since you and everyone else have no idea of that matter and what You're talking about

That's because Goku felt Buu's max power, Frieza told Goku exactly how much power he was using, and Goku went all out against a suppressed Cell who had regeneration, so of course he knew how he stood against them. And I know Goku know's he couldn't beat Whis after Beerus told him he wasn't on that level, but if Goku really got hundreds of times stronger since his fight with Beerus he would want to at least try and fight again.

Not really, as characters can tell who's stronger than the other by just looking at them. An example is Recoome. Goku even states that he recognizes his inferiority just by looking at him which he bluntly implies and implies it has nothing to do with sensing. This same case goes to when Goku judged Pui Pui. Goku knew how powerful Buu is from the start and recognized that his power can drive deep from the start and that he could beat him as a Ssj3 prior to showing his power fully. What do you mean "of course he knew"? Provide evidence for that. He knew He's weaker than Cell and that he could not stand a chance against him by looking at him and that was before showcasing half of his power in front of Korin.

The problem is Roshi getting that strong that quick is story breaking. Roshi was confirmed to be just namek tier in the RoF arc, so that means in just a couple years of training he surpassed all of Z? That means if they put Roshi in the hyperbolic time chamber he could of defeated Buu... It means if he decided to train earlier he could of solod every DBZ villain...

That's a flaw in Toei's part and not mine. I'm merely following Toei's pieces which they left available to be picked. Roshi is shown to have gotten that strong, just like how almost all characters got retardedly stronger in DBS in a short amount of time to follow the pace of the high-end characters. Comparing DBS logic to the rest is not even optional, because both continuities have different logic than the other. In DBS, Android 17 skyrocketed into a God Tier Character in about 7 years while being a poacher only (obviously he wasn't a God Tier in the Buu Saga or even remotely close or else the Genki Dama would have vaporized Kid Buu without struggle. So that "Training" of his started at the very least after the Kid Buu died).

I don't think 17 is stronger than Golden Frieza, and according to a DBS writer and one of the guide books he isn't.

Android 17 miraculously combated Jiren and kept up with Goku and Vegeta on episodes 126 and 127, a blast of his struggled momentarily with a God Of Destruction blast and was capable of stoping Jiren's blast by a shield. Creating a shield and withstanding the opponent requires you to at least release 2x the energy of the opponent infornt of you or the power:

Barrier
First Appearance: Chapter 367
Category: ki manipulation
People: Artificial Human No.17, Cell, Vegetto
Special Characteristics: A technique where they use ki to create a barrier around themselves, guarding against their opponents’ attacks. It can guard against ki attacks, as well as physical attacks such as missiles. What’s more, Vegetto succeeded in avoiding being absorbed by Majin Buu (evil). However, in order to use Barrier, they must constantly emit ki. In order to cancel out the physical attacks and ki attacks of their opponents, they must emit at least twice their opponents’ ki. It could be called natural for No.17, with his infinite energy generator, as well as perfect-form Cell, who took over that infinite energy generator, to be able use this technique. Also, you can understand how Vegetto, said to be the best in the universe in everything from the control of ki to ki strength, would be able to use it as well. However, it seems that this technique cannot guard against the attacks of those who have ki far stronger than one’s own. (Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

Golden Frieza got glared. Nuff said

Ummm no. How did you come to this conclusion? Imo super perfect Cell is only about 10x stronger than 100% Frieza. Frieza could of surpassed that after a few weeks of training.

That is your logic as characters shouldn't get as strong as they have gotten in a short amount of time. Also, only 10x Namek Saga Frieza? I mean that is your opinion but it's kind of so controversial. So I'll leave this for another debate

What? Goku and Vegeta went ssj on all 3 of them, not just Basil. But all 3 are around Buu tier as even Basil on steroids is weaker than Buu.

Goku and Vegeta as Ssj struggled against Basil and Lavender yet base Goku fought Fit Buu and knocked away Bergamo who's superior to Both Basil and Lavender. Lavender > Basil on steroids. Rou expects that lavender should win against the other fighters before Lavender mentions anything about killing his opponents. Sidra states that basil is pathetic for getting defeated and Bergamo mentions that they underestimated universe 7, implying that basil was just a start up and thought Basil would be enough, rather than showing the stronger opponents. Lavender Kept up with Gohan who's above Buu before the poison gets to Gohan even.

This is true and I agree with it. My point is that you can't judge everyone's strength off of Goku and Vegeta because they power up for no reason half the time.

At some points they do power up for a reason and most of the time the other characters are shown to be of value, and some are casually knocked out by stronger opponents which might be misleading to their strengths as they get wasted easily due to the characters which are quite considered high-tier in the Tournament.

Both base Kale and Caulifla are weaker than base Goku and Vegeta, that is made clear.

Ok So? I never disagreed and their bases are definitely weaker than Base Goku and Vegeta in the Tournament of Power, but this has nothing to do with the issue of Base Goku vs SsjG Goku BoG so this is to be ignored. But you definitely ignored the main idea of my comment, which clearly shows how their bases (Kale and Caulifla) are God Tier.

No, it's not what's shown. I actually kind of believe that originally Goku was supposed to have absorbed all of the SSG power but Toriyama changed his mind because it made them too strong

That's some quality speculation you got there. Problem is, it was never shown that Akira changed his mind so what you're saying is utter speculation and nothing more or less. Getting too strong means he changed his mind? Haven't you seen shows with OP characters here and there? DBS has played the role of characters which far exceed the level of anything shown prior to it, so being "too strong" is not a reasoning and it's cringy to even consider it so. We don't choose what the intentions of character powers are, we simply follow what's given.

That is probably the reason Toyotaro decided to have Goku just keep the SSG form instead of absorbing it.

Manga is completely different than the Anime. Each scale differently, and here I'm using the Anime to prove a point in the Anime. I would use the Manga to prove something in the Manga, and same thing here. Comparing both together in an attempt to correlate each other is null. Also, Toyatora changes the plot under his own well. Akira's original intentions were to have Goku absorb that power and anime rolled with it, unlike the Manga.

And there is also the fact that King Kai was afraid that Goku had the power of a god without the ritual, and I know you brought this up and said that he didn't mean power, but he literally said "power" and why else would he be afraid? He was clearly afraid of the universe destroying power of a god.

King Kai never said or even implied that if was about power. In fact, it's quite the opposite; He was shocked of how Goku can go SsjGSsj without the ritual, because originally it was thought to be a temporary form. This is further supported as right before they move onto the king Kai scene, Gohan and Krillin were shocked Goku could go into a transformation beyond SsjG without the reference of Power at all. He wasn't afraid of the Universe busting Waves because Goku already cancelled Beerus's attacks and started controlling his SsjG Form:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

King Kai clearly stated that he can't believe Goku could go SsjG without the ritual since SsjG was thought to be a form which is only achieved by the Ritual and has a time limit.

I already told you the argument. Things like Roshi and Krillin pushing base Goku is impossible if he is way above SSG level unless he is holding back.

He was holding back but that is quite evident and some other statements, feats and Implifications show that they are God Tier. What do you mean "impossible"?

Your argument is like this: "There's no way they're that strong! Although I have no proof, it's just.... impossible hurr durr". This is no argument, why do you think characters like Roshi and Krillin can't get that strong? While there hasn't been a proper build up for them in the first place, that is not to say we can disregard anything based on our baseless opinions, which is exactly what you're doing, and you're also speculating quite a lot desperately just so that you want to stick to your speculative point.

They simply got stronger, but you basically can't believe that because "T-There's nn-no way!" despite there's evidence against your speculation

Those characters clearly aren't supposed to be god tier.

You have no obligation to suggest what's supposed to be and what's not so. We only follow what's shown to us and that's it, not speculate and then claim that this isn't supposed to be the. are based on our opinions and desperate trials which defy what's given in the show. If you can't stick to what we're given then you've already lost this, from the start.

If you told Toriyama you think Roshi is above ssj3 Goku from the buu saga he would think you are crazy. I know what you are saying could make sense if you just take every feat and statement trying to make them as strong as possible, but that is not the author's intent. Those characters were never meant to be god level. Even people like Seththeprogrammer who high balls like crazy only thinks Krillin is namek to androids saga ssj tier.

He is the same person who originally wanted base Goku to become God Tier from the start. Both the DBS Anime and the DBS Manga are different from Akira's original draft as Toei and Toyatora manipulate many events from the draft so we have no idea what is Akira Toriyama's intention, so you're not to judge. I'm following the Anime which consists of direct feats and statements which prove my point. The author was never asked and probably there will be no need for that in the first place. Your logic is the same as saying Android 17 is supposed to be Buu Saga Tier at best because "There's no way! Intention-wise he isn't supposed to be that strong!". We know nothing of Akira's real intention, so what we follow is what we're given. At least you concede that feat-wise, statement-wise and Implification-wise Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG

Also, Why should I listen to SethTheProgrammer? He has multiple bullshits like denying what a Guide says, taking statements out of context, having 100 years Time Skip GT Goku beyond Ssj4 Gogeta despite GT Perfect Files stating that Gogeta is the strongest being in GT, and many more. He has some good instances but he's not to be taken under face value, as he's just like any other fan. I couldn't care less what he thinks.

I'm not judging who is fodder. Do you even know the definition of fodder? All the characters who are knocked off without dialog, are really weak compared to other characters, and only have a couple minutes of screen time are fodder.

Our topic is about SsjG Goku BoG vs Base Goku current so when you're saying fodder it appears to me you're making his also fodder to SsjG BoG based on speculative manners. The ones who are easily knocked away are mostly fodder or appear to be so only because they're knocked by powerful warriors and high-end tier characters or they simply were lazy to give a proper build up to almost all the 80 characters which were in the Tournament, either way it has nothing to do with our topic

I'm not ignoring the show, and the writers would most likely agree with me so your statement above seems kind of ironic.

Funny thing is, you never asked the writers and what they give us means little as the last time they answered a versus question they added the notion of "my personal point of view". We follow what the show gives us, and that's it. Inventing answers is not optional, and is not to be used in a debate because it's a speculative point which is what you've been depending on all this time.

You have no argument. Yet you claimed that you could beat me in a debate? Failing to give evidence and only speculating renders you losing completely

Why not? Basil was one of the strongest in universe 9. Buu beat up a powered up version of Basil. That means besides Bergamo Buu is stronger than every person on universe 9's team. And just so you know feats hold more weight that implied statements.

No it doesn't. That just means Basil is weak in comparison to Buu. That proves nothing, other than Buu > Basil which has nothing to do with our topic. You inputted this thinking it makes sense, even though random points hold no value at all.

Lavender > Basil, but that's for another debate. Regardless, this holds nothing to our main issue so your point means absolutely nothing.

Feats, Implifications and statements all prove my point so this throws you away. You tried to say that Ssj Goku is needed for Namek Saga to Android Saga tiers (you have Krillin at that), despite it being awfully contradicted. I applaud your efforts but they're all invalid. Honestly, you need to stop this

Goku said he would be usefull because of his skill, not strength.

No, Goku referenced power bluntly as possible which was relating to Krillin on episode 76 when he improved and got stronger. Goku and Gohan imagined the old Krillin fighting basil and based on his skills he was shown to hold his own, so skills is already set here. Quite clearly Goku referenced power and told Gohan Krillin will be fine based on what he knows from Krillin, which is episode 76, the last time he saw him.

You should agree to disagree, because you're clearly trying to stick to your opinion to the point you started speculating. I'll leave this up to you

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I'll post this again so you understand:

[spoiler]Goku reverts back from SsjG while fighting Beerus:





Beerus thought that the SsjG Time Limit has gone, although Goku didn't show any sign of notice:



Goku reverts back to Ssj:



Everyone senses Goku's Ki, thus everyone came to the same conclusion:









Again, you would think this means Goku got weaker while reverting back to Ssj right?

Wrong

You'd think this is the case based on the fact that Beerus easily starts to push Goku away:









Beerus casually pushed Goku with a finger as shown above, and casually talks while Goku is trying to attack him.

Is that true though? NO.

Prior to all that, before Goku started reverting back to Ssj, he still had his SsjG power intact, thus no one sensed him, and neither did Whis comment anything on it. Yet Beerus managed to ridicule that SAME SSJG POWER:





He quite clearly implies that Beerus is STILL using that same power against SsjG either way. Nothing suggests Beerus powered down. That's why he's easily blabbering while SsjG Goku is trying his best fighting Beerus.

Beerus specifies "this much power". Which amount of power? The power he is CURRENTLY using.

It doesn't make sense for Goku to get weaker. By Beerus's words themselves: Goku kept surpassing his limits during this same fight:



This is exactly what Goku's entire case revolves around in here, as will be shown down...

Vegeta throws a Ki blast towards Piccolo and Whis, because both of them thought this was "over" in which case Goku reverted to Regular Ssj, thus he "automatically lost" or at least according to them. Vegeta's action signifies that it isn't over yet:





Goku himself still dashes towards Beerus, without realizing he got weaker. This is all after he got flicked by Beerus:



This same Ssj Goku does better than the Goku who, at the end, faired very worse against Beerus:





This caused Beerus to question himself again (he wouldn't do that if he was weaker or if he was getting weaker, since Goku later got even stronger as a Ssj):





Happens TWICE:





Beerus knows that Goku can surpass his limits naturally.

Beerus tells Goku the case:





"I thought your time was up"

Implying he never got the slightest bit weaker at all.

Goku realizes he changed after being notified by Beerus:







Goku bluntly confesses that he doesn't feel weaker at all:





Beerus explains it:









With all of that mentioned, we can easily conclude that Goku's Power never got weaker at all. Despite the form being lost (this time limit was retconned in the tournament of power arc), the power completely merged with Goku. Thus, the power itself remained inside him, rather than the form in general. No power was lost, and Goku is still prone to getting stronger and breaking his initial limits further more.

Proof of Goku getting even further stronger is when he powered up to fight a powered-up Beerus and manages to trade blows with him, and enjoys the fight with Beerus:











The Narrator then confirms that only at this point did both characters perform a "true godly battle" rather than before (He also added to the notion "fighting idiots" or along this phrase, to emphasize their crazy lust for battle and how dense they are when it comes to usual critical manners, which is evident when Beerus said to Goku that his ignorance or foolishness has rubbed him off already):











The episode titles prove this:



They start all the way from "show me the power of Super Saiyan God!" which is the initial point, then we are shown that they are still going on with it, given we know Goku gets stronger through battle, then "Goku, Go Surpass Super Saiyan God!":



It is honestly evident enough here that they're trying to imply to us that Goku got stronger as a Ssj.

That's why later on, when Beerus decides to get even stronger and increase his strength, he starts soloing Goku, but he rises up telling Beerus it isn't over yet:



Despite having said before that he went Full Power:



Now you're probably thinking that it's only Ssj right? WRONG

Before we move on on a huge scale, let's go step by step, It's far neater and better that way

You might argue that Goku got weaker in the next episode (despite the fact that Episode 13 already proves that Goku got a lot stronger rather than weaker) because of this:





Although This actually proves nothing of that sort. Beerus is just trying to provoke Goku into showing more power than he's already doing by beating him up. In fact, this is just Beerus trying to state that a "SsjG" concept-wise is supposed to be stronger, and Nothing more or less.

Proof of Beerus just trying to provoke Goku is his reaction after Goku powers up based on Beerus's provocation:





That's It? For getting weaker? Goku powers up even MORE than before, and before was Goku getting even more powerful than SsjG. Apparently, Beerus wants to fight Goku at his fullest, so he's destroying him and provoking him into releasing more power, not getting weaker, or otherwise it would have been mentioned.

Ssj Goku Episode 13/14 >>>>> SsjG

Beerus starts beating up Goku casually again by increasing his power:







But all of this actually shows us that Beerus is far beyond Goku and that Beerus is using even further power against Goku, but Still having Goku beyond Beerus.

Beerus literally laughs and declares himself a winner with utmost joy when he outclasses Goku, which absolutely makes no sense if Goku got weaker since Beerus already proved himself to be above SsjG Goku on Episode 13 so Goku losing would be pretty much expected:





Yet even after all that, Goku comes back stating he's not done Yet, catching Beerus's attention, while barely phased from Beerus's blasts:





This would mean Goku would have to have gotten even stronger, due to the fact he couldn't with stand his earlier attacks, but then got stronger. An evidence behind it is Beerus praising Goku's Ssj power as the true power of a SsjG, the one he was always searching for, despite not saying a word of that to Goku previously until Goku powered up to his best. Beerus draws out a smirk on his face based on that power Goku put out which partially resisted Beerus's nullification:





Afterwards, Goku reverts back to Base form, completely beaten by Beerus. However Beerus states that Goku absorbed the SsjG power and PERFECTED IT. Beerus also credits his Ask power by stating that he let him use "this" much power:









Even more Proof that Goku got stronger is Beerus's next statement:



According to Beerus, he doubted the greatness to a SsjG until the end bit when he fought Goku. The only time he told Goku this was after his power increase when Goku resisted his Nullification power. This implies Goku got yet even FAR beyond SsjG, not weaker.

Goku Yet stands up again and gets stronger:









Not only does Goku believe he can beat the Beerus who Goku got a taste of his power (Usually characters can tell how strong another is just by witnessing them. They do underestimate them sometimes though), but he states he hasn't used all his power yet which goes contradictory to what he said AND did before.

Goku powers up yet again to his "every Ounce of Power", making Beerus state that he won't be able to extinguish him as easily. This implies that Beerus originally thought it's easy to extinguish Goku prior to the current situation, making Goku as a Ssj in the current situation beyond What he originally was before:







Here, Goku fires an all-out Kamehameha to Beerus, and Beerus throws a blast enough to "extinguish" Goku (Beerus implies that by telling Goku to show him every ounce of his power, then implying it's going to be the last thing). However, both of their attacks combine, creating the sphere of destruction, controlled under Beerus's favor (implying Beerus won the beam struggle overall):







Goku is forced to block that same blast which would destroy everything which gets near it. Goku tries as a Ssj but fails:









Note that this was even before Beerus makes The ball stronger and larger. 

Goku states that it still isn't over yet. You'd think he's simply in denial, but an interesting thing is about to take place:



Beerus tells Goku "you really sure you're not at your limit"? Beerus believes Goku's limit has been completely been reached, which is the level Goku got to as a Ssj. Goku however tells him to "shut up" and DESTROYS the Sphere of Destruction in base form:











Goku tells Beerus to Shut up because Beerus is deciding his limit to be where he got, which provokes Goku. This implids Goku at this time completely broke his limits, making his base form even beyond Regular Ssj that surpassed SsjG on multiple occasions far beyond normality. This is more evident as Goku tells Beerus not to judge people's limits, and laughs at the end, implying he surpassed his limits and beat Beerus's ever expectations completely::









Making Base Goku End of Episode 14 > Ssj Goku Episodes13/14 >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG Episode 9+

You might argue it's temporary, but no. That was NEVER been stated before and just speculation. Later arcs prove this to be the case which we'll go on in this. Some people might try to bring Vegeta's case, although his case is very different (Goku's case is shown to us that Goku broke his limits, unlike Vegeta who mutated into a temporary transformation), as in Vegeta's case, it's STATED by Beerus that his power fell back implying it to be a temporary boost. Another thing is that Vegeta's power was a transformation:



Even Episode 14's Title implies that Goku used every last bit of his power, which was in BASE FORM:



Let's further continue now through the arcs

Vegeta tries to surpass Goku and Beerus by training as hard as possible, and he certainly did get stronger than before, but nowhere near Goku and Beerus. Whis states that If Vegeta trains the same way, he'll never reach anywhere near Beerus:



This also includes Goku, as later on, Whis tells Vegeta if he learns to perfectly control his Ki, then he'll surpass Goku. This implies that if Vegeta doesn't learn this, he won't be able to surpass Goku, since this is also the only suggested way to surpass Goku by Whis, a character beyond Beerus:





Back then, it is believed by Vegeta that the SsjG Form in general has ran out, though Goku still absorbed that power and perfected it, besides already breaking his limits forth. So Vegeta is trying to surpass the Goku Who has broke his limits beyond what has already surpassed SsjG Goku's Power from BoG prior absorbing its power. Vegeta is trying to surpass Goku without going SsjG. He believes SsjG is useless, so he doesn't want to undergo the ritual, which Goku implies to be needed when Goku tells him that they promised so. This implies Goku REALLY did surpass SsjG power:









Notice How Vegeta differentiates SsjG from Goku in general? All relating to the same conclusion.

Vegeta trains for 6 months with Whis on Beerus's planet, which is a training supposed to be powerful enough to surpass Goku, who surpassed SsjG BoG as a Ssj and in Base Form as well. Vegeta is credited by Goku that he might have surpassed Goku, the being who surpassed SsjG from before:





Goku Even comments that Vegeta's Ki is completely different than it was on Earth, and not just power-wise, but almost everything about it, Type-Wise and all. Goku even "hardly" believes that he is Vegeta. Yet despite all that he states "you might be" and later is shown that Goku is Stronger Than Vegeta yet, but relative. This mainly shows that Vegeta's increase in power is astronomical indeed, to an utmost point which wouldn't be relevant if it was inferior to god levels, ESPECIALLY since According to Whis, this type of training would make Vegeta good enough to surpass Goku, who is referenced to have his God Level:





Goku And Vegeta in base form while being completely defenseless (They were occupied by their previous training from Whis) survived being Hit by a Ki blast from Beerus:









Whis Even makes it sound as if surviving it is a great feat on its own. If you think this blast was weak in comparison to what Goku fought, then you're absolutely wrong. Vegeta states that because Beerus is sleeping, he can't hold back:



Goku Even complements Vegeta on surving Beerus's attacks head on. This stimulates the factor of Zenkai boosts in them, which would be a huge factor to why Vegeta would gain this much power. All of this was done in BASE FORMS:





All of this shows how their base forms is in the realm of Gods as to how they are capable of surviving Beerus's unrestrained attacks, and in Base form. Ssj Goku was getting destroyed by Holding Back Beerus while fighting Beerus, suggesting that the power increase he got is certainly astronomical

We're still far from done yet. In RoF arc, when Krillin and Gohan sense Base Goku and Final Form Frieza fighting, Krillin implies that this battle (and in accordance to Gohan's reference to Ki), is more intense and holds MORE POWER than when Goku went against Beerus:





Basically, Krillin's and Gohan's fear and feel of the energies and intensity of the fight that's occurring surpasses that of Goku when he fought Beerus.

Do Note that, the Z Fighters sensed Goku's battle with Beerus when revered back to Ssj, got stronger by far, and his base form when he busted the sphere of Destruction

Proof of them sensing Goku in general after reverting back from SsjG (his Regular forms have no God Ki, enabling normal beings to sense his power):





You may argue that the narrator said Goku only surpassed SsjG when he went SsjB:



Wrong. This only implies that Goku learned to transform into a Stronger transformation. This is herm's translation and the interpretation based the translation:

Narrator: "In order to surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God."

Significance: As chapter 5 indicated a few months ago, Goku's blue form is a step up from Super Saiyan God. Also, another instance of "mutation" being used to describe a transformation.

Also, Krillin implies that Goku surpassed SsjG Transformation-Wise not power wise from BoG, as it also wouldn't make sense considering they can't even sense God Ki, which Gohan outrightly states in the following:















This is supported by how King Kai references the fact that Goku can now go SsjG without the ritual, which means the point wasn't about power, but was about transformation-wise:





Goku Even confirms it's a form that surpasses a SsjG (aside from the narrator from the next episode, meaning the narrator interpreted it that way), and not stating that it's a form which allows him to "surpass his power from when he went SsjG". This correlates with the previous references about it being only transformation-wise:



According to Whis, Goku and Vegeta reached a level where they're barely capable of sensing God Ki. This implies that there's a specific tier that you should top in order to get into the God Tier Zone:



Vegeta does that In base, and "barely". Note that at this time, their bases have already surpassed SsjG BoG at that time. SsjG Goku is the tip of the God Zone, as mentioned by Whis that just barely reached the level where they can sense God Ki, and in general, Despite having surpassed SsjG. This establishes the fact that Goku got stronger In base considering he's still "one step ahead of Vegeta":



Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases (Basically whis states that Goku and Vegeta should become stronger without going Super Saiyans). However, that's not actually the point of this statement. The term "Super Saiyan" can refer to all Super Saiyan forms, and this is exactly what Whis is referring to, reaffirming what Akira Toriyama stated in Saiko Jump's June 2014 Issue about Goku and Vegeta no longer resorting to going Ssj2 or Ssj3, and instead focus on mastering their base and regular Super Saiyan form (This was completely changed in later arcs, however based on the Tournament of Power, it can be concluded Goku mastered Ssj2, though not Ssj3 due to the Stamina Issues still being factored). Another point Whis implies is how training in their bases would be much more effective than in Super Saiyans, as Both Goku and Vegeta realize they should train in their bases rather than a Super Saiyan, otherwise they wouldn't know the realm of power that lies ahead, supported by the fact that Both Vegeta and Goku never once went Super Saiyan despite Whis never dismissing the idea of transforming:









So if anything, this supports me in many ways, as it also correlates with the previous scans which we used to prove our point. This rule of not transforming into more than a regular Super Saiyan has been obeyed and followed till the Universe 6 Arc, until it was completely ignored during the Future Trunks Arc.

The Goku in RoF arc has far surpassed his previous counterpart ridiculously. Beerus states that Goku got a lot stronger than back then (it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can only transform into Regular Super Saiyan if they wanted for any reason so that they could improve. This is supported by Whis, where he states that for them to improve, they should rely on their Base, and reaffirms the usage of Super Saiyan, and Base Mastery, hence relating to What Akira Toriyama Suggested previously. Although this was after achieving SsjB, Beerus has no knowledge of this, and even Whis generalizes their inferiority when it comes to going to the dimension {Despite both having SsjB's initial power} which you can't move in unless you prevent the leakage of your Ki despite even stating that they became much more powerful in a very short amount of time, with surprised tone. Beerus apparently realized the Saiyan's Potential, which explains why he wanted to hurry and throw them in that Dimension Whis sends them to, as they'd improve quickly to give Beerus fun fighting him) and wanted to fight him (Goku admits his utter inferiority to Beerus Power-Wise though) {I'd also like to mention that if Goku and Vegeta were to be thrown in that Dimension which Whis throws both to, he thought (Despite witnessing their power and initial SsjB power) it's too much for them. Both Goku and Vegeta live up to Beerus's expectations}:









Both Goku and Vegeta are thrown into a place which is far beyond their limits back then:





Again, this was after Whis witnessing Goku's and Vegeta's initial SsjB power:







Indeed, both Goku and Vegeta manage to surpass their limits and become capable of moving in this Dimension Whis throws them into, meeting Beerus's Expectations and surpassing Whis's:















(NOTE: This "Initial SsjB" business, while it's true it might (MIGHT) be temporary transformation-wise, the power itself was never said to be temporary, since Vegeta smirks as he achieves this power and whis notes their heightened powers, implying they got stronger at the instance forward).

Goku got far stronger than before that it's utterly ridiculous to say the least. I'll be showing that more now

In the Universe 6 Arc, Goku and Vegeta enter the Room Of Spirit And Time for 3 years, continuously training together, so their must have been a significant increase, although not much known (but significant). You may argue that Vegeta stated they reached their limits:



That's completely wrong. Vegeta was already distant from the idea of training with his rival, Kakarot. While that may seem to be an assumption pulled out by me at first sight, I've proven (easily done) it. This ultimately and factually proves it isn't an assumption, considering the show, as expected, contradicted itself. Characters have been getting stronger yet so it isn't a stretch to say they got stronger.

Base Goku in the Universe 6 tournament manages to scratch hit:





You would think that this is not a reliable answer, right? Wrong. We know Vegeta gets completely destroyed as a SsjB against Hit

Hit dashes towards Vegeta in high speeds:





Vegeta claims Hit is actually FAST. Hit is at SsjB Tier in terms of Speed since he acknowledged him as "fast" while in SsjB:



Vegeta then further comments the following:



"At this low level of Speed".

The claim here makes us conclude Vegeta is a lot faster than Hit Naturally.

Vegeta furthers to attack:



And hit notices it at the process (He can precieve SsjB Tier Movements and Combat Speeds):



Hit suddenly, out of the blue, manages to hit Vegeta:





Actually knocking Vegeta back:





Given that Vegeta acknowledges Hit's speed and seeing how Hit can perceive SsjB Tier speeds, this would logically suggest that Hit had time to to react to Base Goku's attack. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying Base Goku (Actually they made Goku out to be far above Vegeta, but it's not really the issue here. It can also be argued and interpreted either way, so it isn't a reliable thing to state) is Stronger or equal to SsjB Vegeta, but this however suggests that Base Goku is in the same plate of strength as a SsjB Tier as well (something absolutely not possible for a Buu Saga Tier). Hit was capable of Keeping up with SsjB Goku and even tank his hits:



So Logically he's supposed to have had his time to tank Base Goku, but scratching him is nowhere near possible whatsoever unless your strength is out there.

Goku is far faster than Vegeta. Goku requests Hit to use Time-Skip on him. But then the following series of events occur:

Goku challenges Hit speed-wise:



Goku is completely stopped; No prediction is occurring:



Goku has no chance of moving or predetermining an action which is yet to happen:



Goku breaks through Time-Skip and manages to Attack Hit, all referencing speed only:



Base Goku needed to Predict Hit's movements so that he could attack Hit. However, now Goku is fast enough to break through it with sheer speed

If you want to argue that it's resistance, then no. Goku references his speed directly:



Goku implies that he believes Hit has no chance against him Speed-wise. Hit later improves, enough that it allows his speed to stop from breaking through. Hit however didn't get stronger in a sense of Stats, but instead improved his Hax:



EVEN IF you want to argue it's resistance, that would still mean that SsjB Goku is far stronger than Vegeta would have hoped to reach since it didn't work with Vegeta (Vegeta wouldn't have needed to understand the Trick behind Time-Skip to counter hit if he was stronger, enough to resist him). Despite the fact that we know SsjB wears stamina down so easily, probably suggesting Vegeta's easy loss against Hit, this is completely wrong and illogical as Vegeta barely had any time to stay locked onto SsjB, unlike Goku who stayed in his SsjB form most of the time after figuring out how to counter Hit's technique through prediction in base form. SsjB transformation has a ridiculous multiplier between SsjG and SsjB which we witnessed later through the show, especially in the newest arc of Dragon Ball Super, the Tournament of Power. We won't however jump all the way there, since we still have things to argue.

That All would suggest Goku being far beyond Vegeta. And we already showed how even touching Hit would require your power to be in the same plate as SsjB Tier (we know that the SsjB Multiplier is far beyond regular Base Form, and that it is far beyond SsjG multiplier. The Super Saiyan God Multiplier increases your strength more than the difference between Base Goku BoG {Pre God Boost} and Ssj3 Vegito BoG {Goku implied that even Vegito is no match for Beerus, but he thought he can win as a SsjG}. Heck, we can even imply Failed-Ritual Ssj is even beyond a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito BoG because his power was agreed even by Vegeta to possibly be the SsjG {Proven wrong later on} Implying Failed-Ritual Ssj Goku is Stronger than Vegito BoG, but then again, The Ritual was supposed to push Goku beyond the boundaries of regular powers and into the God Realm either way, so Goku's SsjG Multiplier is far beyond normality), this would suggest Base Goku has far surpassed the old powers from BoG (Pre God Form) and his power from RoF which we already showcased to be beyond SsjG Goku BoG arc. Goku's Base Form far surpassed His SsjG Counterpart From the BoG Arc.

Now Let's Move On To The Filler Episode, Episode 42

Base Goku was capable of surviving Beerus's attacks and go against him. You might argue that Beerus was restricted right? I mean, Jaco states it, and Vegeta confirms it:







However, this doesn't mean Goku in base form is a bit above his Buu Saga counterpart, or at the very least far weaker than his BoG SsjG counterpart. All this means is that Beerus is restricted. However, there is a flaw which people fail to recognize. Let's look at the events from the start:

Beerus at first decides to end the battle as quick as possible with Goku so that he could get out of the costume he's wearing (he was quite skeptical about wearing it and questioned the idea of a God Of Destruction even wearing such a silly costume):



That would suggest that Beerus thinks he can easily bring Goku down. Remember what Beerus did against Ssj3 Goku in the BoG Arc? 2 shots, a flick and a push onto the shoulder was needed to knock Ssj3 Goku out, and a heavily suppressed Beerus at that. Beerus goes on to punch Base Goku, bearing In his mind that he needs to knock Goku out:



The Question here shifts into whether Beerus has the ability to knock Goku as easily as It was made out to be (bearing in mind that Goku should not be killed). Regardless whether Beerus had the costume or not, Beerus would have no trouble knocking Goku out for days if he was just a bit stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart, or even Buu Level. Goku evenly fights with a restricted suppressed Beerus who's decided to knock Goku out (Beerus doesn't seem to be quick enough to knock Goku, though this doesn't suggest anything of his main power):





At This point, Beerus's hand has become revealed and seen. So Beerus had the option to ultimately fuck Goku just as he did with Ssj3 Goku in BoG, if not worse, but Couldn't Easily achieve such a feat. He could have even knocked him as easily as he did when he almost killed SsjG Goku, but again, COULDN'T, which is an obvious occurrence, revealing how strong Goku is (He even survives direct attacks from Beerus for the sole purpose of knocking him out){Although Beerus even blocks some of Goku's attacks with one hand, it still doesn't change any of what we mentioned, since this would only mean Beerus is far beyond Goku}:









If you still doubt this, then look at the later scans. Beerus got so excited, he powers up further and laughs loudly out of Joy of fighting BASE GOKU:





You might argue that Beerus got that much excited because Whis stated that Beerus was itched to fight somebody when he was just a spectator looking at the fights occurring between Universe 6 and Universe 7. Does that mean normally he wouldn't enjoy himself?

WRONG

Look carefully at what Whis states:





Whis DIRECRLY references a surprise at Beerus's joyment (implying the rarity for Beerus to enjoy a fight, and a proof of this is that Beerus rarely even gets any challenge, but it depends on who gets it. For example, Beerus was utterly shocked with Goku's request of fighting Beerus, which according to Beerus it's been hundreds to millions of years since anyone ever told him such a thing, yet he still didn't enjoy himself against Goku until he went SsjG. Beerus shows Signs that he enjoys himself against Base Goku far more than when he fought SsjG despite him being itching to battle the SsjG, so the excitement of battle would be equated as between back then in BoG and when he saw the Tournament fights, yet he still enjoys himself more with Base Goku and Whis is even surprised that he's having fun ¿for some reason? despite fighting SsjG Goku earlier on in BoG arc). Whis then states that it's of no surprise that he got joyful in a battle LIKE THIS (a reference to Base Goku against Beerus, so it was apparent):





It becomes obvious that Goku in base is way too capable than anything that could ever exist before:



Beerus almost cries out of enjoyment and Goku then powers up EVEN MORE:





Even Vegito Ssj3 BoG arc cannot even make Beerus enjoy himself. Goku originally thought that Vegito cannot even beat Beerus, based on the performance Goku witnessed from Beerus while being suppressed:





It's already established that SsjG Goku BoG is Stronger Than a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito, and Goku even surpassed his limits as a Ssj. However Beerus was going to regret being so interested about this SsjG power and beyond until Goku even powers to further after pushing Beerus to space with a push (We already showed this before). This contradicts his reaction when he fought Base Goku and enjoyed himself so much so that he was laughing so loudly Goku even got weirded. This would suggest that Base Goku is stronger than Ssj3 Vegito.

In the next filler Arc, we see Copy Vegeta, who's exactly as strong as Vegeta, surviving Gotenks Ssj3 Causally in base form, and later, while suppressed, stomping him:





This doesn't show anything about base Goku or Vegeta being near SsjG, however it shows their utter improvement. But we do get something

Each arc seems to define the other. As we're moving on, we are directly being referenced to the same point, and this arc is no different, as it shows nothing contradicting what's been previously mentioned, and instead indirectly supporting it by proving Goku's and Vegeta's ridiculous power gains and improvements throughout the show (Goku matches Vegeta in Base and both of them are noted to be FAR stronger than before from the Universe 6 Arc by far). It's already too obvious now, but we'll continue.

In the future trunks arc, you might argue that Goku struggled with Trunks. I mean, Trunks who barely defeated Dabura!!!:



But whoever buys this, calm down, lmao. Because you're probably misunderstanding this entire situation. Here, it is ALREADY concluded that Trunks is FAR FAR stronger than when he fought Dabura, as multiple years has passed and I'll prove how he got suddenly this strong. Another thing is, Goku was suppressed which I'LL PROVE ALSO DOWN HERE.

It's true, Trunks's battle with Dabura was "intense" and "difficult" as described by himself:











When trunks first went on to fight black Goku, he was defeated with one blow, with ease, just that:



After a whole year, Trunks seem to be able to spar with black Goku proving the point that he became more powerful:



(Note: As I'll be showing later on that Goku was holding back against Trunks, it could just simply be a form of anger which allowed Trunks to fight against Goku black like that given that we witness a form of rage coming from him when He though Mai died due to Goku black. However, Goku Black was laughing and having his fun the entire battle so the point stays relevant anyways)

Beerus Even credits Trunks enough to call him decent and a good fighter based on how he matched Ssj2 Goku (who was suppressed) {Though this is not much, it does show that Trunks got stronger}:

[/spoiler]