The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:21 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:Caulifla vs. Kid Boo
base Caulifla loses, but ssj Caulifla wins.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:22 pm

PFM18 wrote:Base Caulifla one shots while being heavily suppressed.
That's impossible, Majin Boo was one if not the biggest threat in Universe 7 and Caulifla, a scrawny Saiyan from Universe 6 who have experienced no wars or much battles to deal with the monster who wasted thousand and thousands of planets so easily? Nice joke lol
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:43 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Base Caulifla one shots while being heavily suppressed.
That's impossible, Majin Boo was one if not the biggest threat in Universe 7 and Caulifla, a scrawny Saiyan from Universe 6 who have experienced no wars or much battles to deal with the monster who wasted thousand and thousands of planets so easily? Nice joke lol
Then why did you ask the question if you already know the answer? And why does it matter if she's scrawny? That makes no difference in Dragon Ball

It is most definitely not impossible. Let's take a look at some things.

SSJ3 Goku: 1
SSG Goku: 20,000

Since SSG Goku was strongly implied to be > SSJ3 Vegetto given Beerus had to use more power than he did when Goku determined that fusion wouldn't work against Beerus,(Obviously going SSJ3 as Vegetto was an option) we know that the difference has to be astronomically large. Now, Since Goku stated he didn't lose any strength when the ritual ran out when he was a SSJ, we can conclude that SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>=SSG Goku BoG. So it follows that:

SSJ Goku(post-ritual): 20,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 400

Then, the dialogue on Whis's planet confirms that Goku retained this power boost.

We can see that Goku broke through Hit's time dimension using Kaiokenx10 during the Universe 6 Tournament and then in the time following the Zamasu Arc, he breaks the same time dimension without Kaioken. Therefore, he must have gotten at least 10x stronger since the Universe 6 Tournament. Now, for the sake of simplicity, we will ignore Whis's planet training, 3 years in the ROSAT, and the training with Whis leading up to the ToP. Based on this information it follows that:

ToP Base Goku: 4,000

And ToP Base Goku~Base Caulifla so:

Base Caulifla: 4,000

Since SSJ3 Goku~Kid Buu:

Kid Buu: 1
Base Caulifla(.1% of full-power): 4

And of course, 4>1 so Base Caulifla(.1% power)>>Kid Buu.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:51 pm

Toppo GOD VS Anilaza

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:52 pm

Tai Lung wrote:Toppo GOD VS Anilaza
This is an interesting one but I think GoD Toppo takes it since he could beat initial SSBE Vegeta.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:12 pm

Tai Lung wrote:Toppo GOD VS Anilaza
Toppo
PFM18 wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Base Caulifla one shots while being heavily suppressed.
That's impossible, Majin Boo was one if not the biggest threat in Universe 7 and Caulifla, a scrawny Saiyan from Universe 6 who have experienced no wars or much battles to deal with the monster who wasted thousand and thousands of planets so easily? Nice joke lol
Then why did you ask the question if you already know the answer? And why does it matter if she's scrawny? That makes no difference in Dragon Ball

It is most definitely not impossible. Let's take a look at some things.
He didn't say Caulifla couldn't beat Buu, he said it's impossible for base Caulifla to one shot Buu while being heavily suppressed, which I would agree with.
I'll ignore your numbers as they are pretty much all made up so lets look at actual feats and statements.

Base ToP Goku lost to Buu right before the tournament, yet he was beating ssj2 Caulifla at first.
Piccolo was able to fight Frost in both the anime and manga, who was stated to be the strongest warrior in U6 before going into his final form by Vados in the manga. Piccolo was weaker than even Fat Buu.

So even if we go by the anime the highest I could see base Caulifla being is super Buu to base Vegito level. So base Caulifla has a chance at being stronger than kid Buu, but casually one shotting while suppressed? That is unfounded and from head canon scaling.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:41 pm

dragon boss z wrote:I'll ignore your numbers as they are pretty much all made up so lets look at actual feats and statements.
Yeah that would be great except all of my numbers are based on feats and statements. The only thing that is even opinion based is my multiplier for SSG being 20,000x SSJ3 during BoG. But even if we lowballed extremely hard and said it is only 1,000x SSJ3, then it would still mean Caulifla at 1% power is >Kid Buu.
Base ToP Goku lost to Buu right before the tournament, yet he was beating ssj2 Caulifla at first.
Weak evidence at the very best. Not only was Base Goku winning against Caulifla not representative of her power, but Buu trained and we have no idea how much power he gained from training, and even THEN Goku certainly appeared to be fighting casually and not going all out. So really nothing remotely definitive can be concluded from this.
Piccolo was able to fight Frost in both the anime and manga
Piccolo fought a very weakened Frost and based on what we can clearly see with Golden Freeza and Jiren, when somebody is heavily weakened it is extremely hard to gauge their power because it can be dramatically less. Jiren went from being ~CUI Goku at his max to being ~SSJ Goku when he was weakened. Golden Freeza's situation was similar. And even if this was an actually reliable feat(it isn't) then the logical conclusion would be that Piccolo got stronger not that EVERYBODY ELSE is weaker than they were portrayed to be.
So even if we go by the anime the highest I could see base Caulifla being is super Buu to base Vegito level.
This is a very strange conclusion to make. Base Goku immediately following the U6 tournament was CLEARLY shown to be >>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks in his base. His fights with Hit clearly showed that he gained a 10x boost from the U6 Tournament to Post-Zamasu Arc. So at the very weakest you could possibly put Base Caulifla is being 10x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. And since SSJ3 Gotenks>Kid Buu, then even at the lowest possible estimate, Caulifla at 10% of her power could beat Kid Buu. Realistically my estimate that Caulifla would only need 0.1% of her power to beat Kid Buu, but even if you lowball her to the lowest possible amount, she could still win with 10% of her power.

Kid Buu is just fodder to DBS characters. Just the nature of the series.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:55 pm

PFM18 wrote: Yeah that would be great except all of my numbers are based on feats and statements. The only thing that is even opinion based is my multiplier for SSG being 20,000x SSJ3 during BoG. But even if we lowballed extremely hard and said it is only 1,000x SSJ3, then it would still mean Caulifla at 1% power is >Kid Buu.
See the problem is you are putting a level which you think SSG is and it can't be anything else. Imo SSG could have been as low as 10x boost from what we know now. The only reason everyone thought the boost was so high was because it brought him to Beerus level, but now we know it didn't, and base Goku was above both base Caulifla and Kale, yet their base fussion was above SSG, meaning even base Vegito could have been arguably above SSG.
Weak evidence at the very best. Not only was Base Goku winning against Caulifla not representative of her power, but Buu trained and we have no idea how much power he gained from training, and even THEN Goku certainly appeared to be fighting casually and not going all out. So really nothing remotely definitive can be concluded from this.
Buu trained less than one day. If training for a few hours could make someone hundreds of times stronger we might as well just throw everything out the window. It breaks the story.
Piccolo fought a very weakened Frost and based on what we can clearly see with Golden Freeza and Jiren, when somebody is heavily weakened it is extremely hard to gauge their power because it can be dramatically less. Jiren went from being ~CUI Goku at his max to being ~SSJ Goku when he was weakened. Golden Freeza's situation was similar. And even if this was an actually reliable feat(it isn't) then the logical conclusion would be that Piccolo got stronger not that EVERYBODY ELSE is weaker than they were portrayed to be.
Frost was a bit tired, but nothing noteworthy. He was a couple times weaker at most. And like I said Piccolo was confirmed weaker than Buu, so not sure why him being stronger would be relevant. Sure he could be stronger than before, but still weaker than Buu as Buu was stated to be the strongest out of them in the RoF and U6 arc.
This is a very strange conclusion to make. Base Goku immediately following the U6 tournament was CLEARLY shown to be >>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks in his base. His fights with Hit clearly showed that he gained a 10x boost from the U6 Tournament to Post-Zamasu Arc. So at the very weakest you could possibly put Base Caulifla is being 10x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. And since SSJ3 Gotenks>Kid Buu, then even at the lowest possible estimate, Caulifla at 10% of her power could beat Kid Buu.
Base Goku didn't have to be that much stronger than ssj3 Gotenks. In dbz characters with just a 20% power advantage over another could completely stomp the other in some cases. Also I think ssj3 Gotenks is overestimated and he hasn't been training recently either, kid Buu would arguably beat him. And yes I think base Goku would beat kid Buu, I think base Goku is around mystic Gohan or a bit above. However like I said, he was able to keep up with ssj2 Caulifla as well, not to mention the potafu arc was anime only and didn't come from Toriyama.

And SSB Goku was stronger than Hit back in the U6 arc, his only problem was the time skip, and in the post Zamasu arc Goku said his time skip wouldn't work this time because he's seen it before. So that could be more of a skill thing than anything. And then there is the fact Hit goes right back to being able to fight at SSBKK level in the ToP (against someone who hasn't seen time skip), but then also almost loses to Dypo who counters him and Dyspo was below SSB level. So it's clear how hit does is more to do with his abilities than raw power.
Kid Buu is just fodder to DBS characters. Just the nature of the series.
Yet characters weaker than namek Frieza were still relevant int he ToP arc.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:27 pm

dragon boss z wrote:See the problem is you are putting a level which you think SSG is and it can't be anything else. Imo SSG could have been as low as 10x boost from what we know now. The only reason everyone thought the boost was so high was because it brought him to Beerus level, but now we know it didn't, and base Goku was above both base Caulifla and Kale, yet their base fussion was above SSG, meaning even base Vegito could have been arguably above SSG.
Uhh no people didn't think that SSG was that strong because he was close to Beerus, that would be a very arbitrary way to scale. What we do know, that isn't arbitrary, is that Goku as a SSJ3 went from being far inferior to Ultimate Gohan to being vastly superior to SSJ3 Vegetto. This was thoroughly established by the statements during BoG. SSG was the only way he could reach that level of power, fusion included. So no, it cannot possibly be 10x that is factually incorrect. Based on the Daizenshuu where Base Vegetto>=SSJ3 Goku, then SSG Goku has to be AT LEAST 400x stronger than SSJ3. And this figure is assuming that Base Vegetto=SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto=SSG Goku, which aren't true assumptions but for the sake of lowballing and being able to definitively say "at least" then it is 400x. Really, 1000x is the lowest you could realistically go.
Buu trained less than one day. If training for a few hours could make someone hundreds of times stronger we might as well just throw everything out the window. It breaks the story.
This isn't just anyone this is Majin Buu, but that isn't the point. The point is that how much stronger Buu got is very vague and so this cannot be reasonably to make any kind of scaling conclusions. Especially since it appeared Goku wasn't going all-out.
Frost was a bit tired, but nothing noteworthy. He was a couple times weaker at most. And like I said Piccolo was confirmed weaker than Buu, so not sure why him being stronger would be relevant. Sure he could be stronger than before, but still weaker than Buu.
So you are just going to arbitrarily decide that Frost is only weakened by "a couple times"? Frost had trouble even standing up after Goku beat the crap out of him. Jiren also had trouble getting up and he went from being >>>>>>SSBKKx20 to being ~SSJ Goku. At a minimum, that is a difference of a thousand times. We see something similar with Golden Freeza. His full-power state was ~SSB, but his weakened state was so weak that Base Vegeta could deflect his ki blast. This also could reasonably be a thousand times. Either way, there's absolutely no reasonable way that we could conclude that this was "only a couple of times."
Buu as Buu was stated to be the strongest out of them in the RoF and U6 arc
What? What are you talking about?
Base Goku didn't have to be that much stronger than ssj3 Gotenks. In dbz characters with just a 20% power advantage over another could completely stomp the other in some cases.
Well you must not have read what I said because my calculation assumed that Base Goku was equal to SSJ3 Gotenks. Giving a 20% difference would only make it more lobsided.
Also I think ssj3 Gotenks is overestimated and he hasn't been training recently either, kid Buu would arguably beat him
This is just your random headcanon. There's no statements or anything at all implying that Gotenks has gotten weaker.
And SSB Goku was stronger than Hit back in the U6 arc, his only problem was the time skip, and in the post Zamasu arc Goku said his time skip wouldn't work this time because he's seen it before. So it's clear how hit does is more to do with his abilities than raw power.
You're missing the point. This isn't about Hit's strength vs SSB Goku's strength. Yes, Goku knowing about the time skip helped him. This is about being able to break Hit's time dimension. During the Universe 6 Arc, upon using Kaioken, Goku was still able to move during Hit's time skip because "he was too fast for it." So he was fast enough to break Hit's time dimension. Then, later in the rematch Goku just powers up to full-power and this completely shatters Hit's time skip altogether. The logical conclusion is that Goku got at a minimum 10x stronger.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:37 pm

PFM18 wrote: Uhh no people didn't think that SSG was that strong because he was close to Beerus, that would be a very arbitrary way to scale. What we do know, that isn't arbitrary, is that Goku as a SSJ3 went from being far inferior to Ultimate Gohan to being vastly superior to SSJ3 Vegetto. This was thoroughly established by the statements during BoG. SSG was the only way he could reach that level of power, fusion included. So no, it cannot possibly be 10x that is factually incorrect. Based on the Daizenshuu where Base Vegetto>=SSJ3 Goku, then SSG Goku has to be AT LEAST 400x stronger than SSJ3. And this figure is assuming that Base Vegetto=SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto=SSG Goku, which aren't true assumptions but for the sake of lowballing and being able to definitively say "at least" then it is 400x. Really, 1000x is the lowest you could realistically go.
Wrong on both accounts. First off it was actually stated Goku was the strongest in the universe at that time, so he may have surpassed ultimate Gohan or Gohan could have gotten weaker at the time, but either way I don't think ultimate Gohan was ever more than a few times stronger than ssj3 Goku to begin with. In the anime ssj3 Goku pretty much did just as well against Buutanks as Gohan did and the super anime follows kai filler.

And it was never once stated SSG was stronger than ssj3 Vegito (though I do think he is), and multipliers may not always be the same so ssj3 Vegito being 400x base Vegito might not even be the case, and I don't think it is.
The only fact is that SSG Goku was the strongest he has ever been including buu saga ssj Vegito. He was never compared to a hypothetical ssj3 Vegito.

Imo if I numbered them
ssj3 Goku: 1
Super Buu: 1.5
ultimate Gohan: 2
base Vegito: 3
Buuhan: 3.5
ssj Vegito: 30
SSG Goku: 50 (if we just go by him being above the vegito we saw)
ssj3 Vegito: 240
SSG Goku: 500 (if we go above a hypothetical ssj3 Vegito)
This isn't just anyone this is Majin Buu, but that isn't the point. The point is that how much stronger Buu got is very vague and so this cannot be reasonably to make any kind of scaling conclusions. Especially since it appeared Goku wasn't going all-out.
Ya, but then we can say Goku doesn't go all out on anyone. I could agree where you put Goku if we assume Goku is actually far above the U6 saiyans (which would explain his base fighting ssj2 Caulifla) If we go by his base being equal to her base, then I would go with his strength was retconned down a bit.
So you are just going to arbitrarily decide that Frost is only weakened by "a couple times"? Frost had trouble even standing up after Goku beat the crap out of him. Jiren also had trouble getting up and he went from being >>>>>>SSBKKx20 to being ~SSJ Goku. At a minimum, that is a difference of a thousand times. We see something similar with Golden Freeza. His full-power state was ~SSB, but his weakened state was so weak that Base Vegeta could deflect his ki blast. This also could reasonably be a thousand times. Either way, there's absolutely no reasonable way that we could conclude that this was "only a couple of times."
Dude you are getting out of hand. Frieza took far more of a beating on namek and his power barely dropped. It didn't even go down 2x and his tail literally fell off. And Jiren fought far longer and harder than Frost and took more damage and his power didn't drop thousands of times either. He was still above android 17 (who can never get tired) at the end and 17 is god tier. He even beat on golden Frieza and 17 at the same time in the last episode.
What? What are you talking about?
Why did you only quote a portion of what I said to make it look like it doesn't make sense? Or are you asking when was it stated Buu was stronger than Piccolo? In the RoF arc it was implied by Krillin and Roshi Buu was the strongest there without Gohan, and Buu was Goku's first choice for the U6 tournament, meaning he was the best that isn't Goku or Vegeta.
Well you must not have read what I said because my calculation assumed that Base Goku was equal to SSJ3 Gotenks. Giving a 20% difference would only make it more lobsided.
But base Goku is stronger than base Caulifa and kid Buu could arguably beat ssj3 Gotenks, so I fail to see your point.
This is just your random headcanon. There's no statements or anything at all implying that Gotenks has gotten weaker.
Even if he didn't get weaker he still would have problems with kid Buu.
You're missing the point. This isn't about Hit's strength vs SSB Goku's strength. Yes, Goku knowing about the time skip helped him. This is about being able to break Hit's time dimension. During the Universe 6 Arc, upon using Kaioken, Goku was still able to move during Hit's time skip because "he was too fast for it." So he was fast enough to break Hit's time dimension. Then, later in the rematch Goku just powers up to full-power and this completely shatters Hit's time skip altogether. The logical conclusion is that Goku got at a minimum 10x stronger.
That was just toei being weird with the time skip. Time skip does not pause time, Hit can't attack during paused time, and nobody can fly faster than time. And this is't head canon, it was flat out stated by Vados Hit doesn't stop time.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:07 pm

dragon boss z wrote:First off it was actually stated Goku was the strongest in the universe at that time, so he may have surpassed ultimate Gohan or Gohan could have gotten weaker at the time
Well exactly. Gohan had gotten weaker. No way he surpassed Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan.
I don't think ultimate Gohan was ever more than a few times stronger than ssj3 Goku to begin with
Well it appears you are mistaken then. At a minimum it was a 10x difference.

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks~SSJ3 Goku.
And it was never once stated SSG was stronger than ssj3 Vegito
It was heavily implied.

*fights a heavily suppressed Beerus*
"fusion wouldn't even be enough against him"
*gains SSG*
"I didn't know this level of power could even exist"

I don't know how it could be more clear than that. When he considered fusion, it obviously included the inevitable ability to go SSJ3. He knew this wouldn't be enough but Beerus was forced to use more power than the amount that he used against SSJ3 Goku that was determined to be too much for fusion. And there's the comment that he didn't even know that such a power could even exist when he went SSG.
multipliers may not always be the same so ssj3 Vegito being 400x base Vegito might not even be the case, and I don't think it is.
Nothing indicates that the multipliers change. Nothing whatsoever. You can't just assume that it has changed for some arbitrary reason. This is not supported in any way is the point. By extension your numbers that you use based on this convoluted assumption is also not supported.
a, but then we can say Goku doesn't go all out on anyone. I could agree where you put Goku if we assume Goku is actually far above the U6 saiyans (which would explain his base fighting ssj2 Caulifla) If we go by his base being equal to her base, then I would go with his strength was retconned down a bit.
Alright so you are just going to change arbitrarily how strong the Universe 6 Saiyans based on nothing? Their bases are equal. Their SSJ2s fought evenly throughout. Therefore, their bases are equal. The Base Goku vs SSJ2 stuff was stated to be because of the difference in experience. Once Caulifla adjusted to Goku's fighting style, they had started fighting evenly.
Dude you are getting out of hand. Frieza took far more of a beating on namek and his power barely dropped. It didn't even go down 2x and his tail literally fell off.
Yeah it certainly doesn't appear to be the case. Freeza's drop in power was marginal obviously as a result of taking less damage or just having more stamina.
And Jiren fought far longer and harder than Frost and took more damage and his power didn't drop thousands of times either.
It must have dropped over a thousand times. He went from >>>SSBKKx20 to being ~SSJ. There's pretty much no way around it being a thousand times.
He was still above android 17 (who can never get tired) at the end and 17 is god tier. He even beat on golden Frieza and 17 at the same time in the last episode.
Did Jiren or did Jiren not get overpowered by SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza? You appear to be ignoring this for some reason. And 17 had literally just tried to blow himself up. You don't think he lost power from that?

And Golden Freeza went from being SSB level to Base Vegeta being able to deflect his ki blast. That must also be a thousand times. Of course, Base->SSB has to be at a bare minimum 1,000x.
But base Goku is stronger than base Caulifa
False. They fought evenly the entire time. Especially when they were both SSJ2s. Goku only gains the advantage because of his additional transformations.
kid Buu could arguably beat ssj3 Gotenks
Also false. SSJ3 Gotenks is >= Super Buu and Kid Buu is far inferior to both. He's even with SSJ3 Goku and far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks.
That was just toei being weird with the time skip.
Call it whatever you want. But Toei is consistent about the fact that Hit's time-skip can be "overriden" when enough power is exerted. The second time around Goku didn't even need Kaioken to do it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:47 pm

PFM18 wrote: Well it appears you are mistaken then. At a minimum it was a 10x difference.
Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks~SSJ3 Goku.
It was never proven ssj Gotenks was as strong as ssj3 Goku. The super anime is a continuation of kai and in kai ssj3 Goku was able to fight someone 2x stronger than ssj3 Gotenks, so I highly doubt ssj Gotenks is ssj3 Goku, at least in the anime. Also I saw an interview with Toriyama saying Gotenks would only be slightly stronger than Goku but it would be barely noticeable.
It was heavily implied.

*fights a heavily suppressed Beerus*
"fusion wouldn't even be enough against him"
*gains SSG*
"I didn't know this level of power could even exist"

I don't know how it could be more clear than that. When he considered fusion, it obviously included the inevitable ability to go SSJ3. He knew this wouldn't be enough but Beerus was forced to use more power than the amount that he used against SSJ3 Goku that was determined to be too much for fusion. And there's the comment that he didn't even know that such a power could even exist when he went SSG.
Well I do personally believe SSG would be above ssj3 Vegito, I'm just saying they could easily retcon it to where it wouldn't be and it wouldn't.
Nothing indicates that the multipliers change. Nothing whatsoever. You can't just assume that it has changed for some arbitrary reason. This is not supported in any way is the point. By extension your numbers that you use based on this convoluted assumption is also not supported.
In the BoG movie after losing SSG ssj3 had to be less than an 8x multiplier, since ssj Goku was already close to 60% of Beerus and if he got 8x stronger he would have stomped Beerus.
Alright so you are just going to change arbitrarily how strong the Universe 6 Saiyans based on nothing? Their bases are equal. Their SSJ2s fought evenly throughout. Therefore, their bases are equal. The Base Goku vs SSJ2 stuff was stated to be because of the difference in experience. Once Caulifla adjusted to Goku's fighting style, they had started fighting evenly.
It's based off of base Vegeta and Goku doing far better than base Cabba and Caulifla, and base Goku fighting ssj2 Caulifla, who if she was 100x stronger she could have just stood there and tank Goku's hits like Jiren did or like how perfect Cell tanked Krillin's punches, or how semi perfect Cell tanked 16's punch.
Yeah it certainly doesn't appear to be the case. Freeza's drop in power was marginal obviously as a result of taking less damage or just having more stamina.
That doesn't appear to be the case? If you made a threat on who took more damage, Frost against Goku or the damage Frieza took on namek, pretty sure every single person would agree Frieza took way more damage. And saying Frieza has thousands of times more stamina is ridiculous.
It must have dropped over a thousand times. He went from >>>SSBKKx20 to being ~SSJ. There's pretty much no way around it being a thousand times.
Well Jiren had to go beyond his limits to fight UI Goku, and then used up all of his power and then lost, and was still stronger than Golden Frieza and 17. And then he got hit by another big attack and dropped again. I would say maybe a few hundred times weaker, not thousands, and he actually used up a lot of power. Frost only crossed hands with Goku for a few seconds and didn't even take or use any big attacks.
Did Jiren or did Jiren not get overpowered by SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza? You appear to be ignoring this for some reason. And 17 had literally just tried to blow himself up. You don't think he lost power from that?
Jiren was pushed off by ssj Goku and final form Frieza but those characters aren't weak, final form Frieza fought Dyspo who pushed SSG Goku, and ssj Goku has also shown he could fight at a god tier level.
And Golden Freeza went from being SSB level to Base Vegeta being able to deflect his ki blast. That must also be a thousand times. Of course, Base->SSB has to be at a bare minimum 1,000x.
And base Vegeta deflected a ki blast from kid Buu. Deflecting a small ki blast meant to be used on Krillin isn't that noteworthy.

False. They fought evenly the entire time. Especially when they were both SSJ2s. Goku only gains the advantage because of his additional transformations.
He was holding back and tired. They literally attacked him while he still couldn't even go ssj. And then he fought both of them at once as a ssj2.
Also false. SSJ3 Gotenks is >= Super Buu and Kid Buu is far inferior to both. He's even with SSJ3 Goku and far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Imo kid Buu isn't much weaker than base super buu. I would say he is Super Buu minus the power of Mr. Buu, so at most he is like 50% weaker.
Call it whatever you want. But Toei is consistent about the fact that Hit's time-skip can be "overriden" when enough power is exerted. The second time around Goku didn't even need Kaioken to do it.
I'm not sure if an anime only arc is the best way to try and judge power like that, not to mention he used a kamehameha which multiplies power. It's possible he got 10x stronger, but it isn't a confirmed fact.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Green » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:18 am

Caulifla vs. Kid Boo

Caulifla wins, by transforming. She seems to be on Goku's level, who in base is somewhat weaker than Piccolo considering how they performed against Frost. That said, any Super Saiyan is considerably stronger than the latter.

All things considered:

SS Caulifla > Kid Buu >>> Good Buu > Piccolo >= Caulifla

This going by the manga.

SS Kefla and GoD Toppo vs SSB KK x20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta

SSBE Vegeta beats Toppo like last time, and the Kefla vaporizes him after playing around with Goku. Unless Vegeta manages to beat Toppo without using Final Explosion, in that case not even SS2 would save Kefla.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:11 pm

Tai Lung wrote:Toppo GOD VS Anilaza
Toppo destroys that thing in seconds
dragon boss z wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:Caulifla vs. Kid Boo
base Caulifla loses, but ssj Caulifla wins.
Agreed. SSJ Caulifla might win, but base no chance.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:34 am

dragon boss z wrote:It was never proven ssj Gotenks was as strong as ssj3 Goku. The super anime is a continuation of kai and in kai ssj3 Goku was able to fight someone 2x stronger than ssj3 Gotenks, so I highly doubt ssj Gotenks is ssj3 Goku, at least in the anime. Also I saw an interview with Toriyama saying Gotenks would only be slightly stronger than Goku but it would be barely noticeable.
Both iterations of Super are a continuation of Toryama's original manga. Also, I'd like to see this supposed interview.
Well I do personally believe SSG would be above ssj3 Vegito, I'm just saying they could easily retcon it to where it wouldn't be and it wouldn't.
Ok then what are you arguing for then? They could retcon anything at any time but the evidence is strongly in the favor of SSG>SSJ3 Vegetto.
In the BoG movie after losing SSG ssj3 had to be less than an 8x multiplier, since ssj Goku was already close to 60% of Beerus and if he got 8x stronger he would have stomped Beerus.
That is a movie that has been since retconned and is no longer relevant to the current continuity and it has nothing to do with fusions having different multipliers than their constituents.
It's based off of base Vegeta and Goku doing far better than base Cabba and Caulifla, and base Goku fighting ssj2 Caulifla, who if she was 100x stronger she could have just stood there and tank Goku's hits like Jiren did or like how perfect Cell tanked Krillin's punches, or how semi perfect Cell tanked 16's punch.
Well Cabba is far inferior to anyone involved here so I am not sure why you brought him up. It was stated that Caulifla had the power advantage against Base Goku but Goku had the advantage in experience and skill so he was winning anyway. Once she started adjusting to his fighting style he was forced to go SSJ2 and they fought evenly as SSJ2s. Therefore, their bases are equal if their SSJ2s are equal. Sure, you would expect her to be able to tank everything but I guess you could just chalk that up to Toei being weird because they are clearly equals in equivalent forms.
That doesn't appear to be the case? If you made a threat on who took more damage, Frost against Goku or the damage Frieza took on namek, pretty sure every single person would agree Frieza took way more damage. And saying Frieza has thousands of times more stamina is ridiculous.
Okay well that is all fine and dandy but between:

Weakened Jiren~SSJ Goku
Weakened Golden Freeza~Base Vegeta
Weakened SSJ Goku(Cell Games)<Tenshinhan

We can see that there are potentially colossal differences between characters at their max and at a weakened state. But this isn't entirely the point. The point is that we have no idea how much weaker Frost was compared to his max state that appeared to be stronger than Base Goku. Either way, there is no possible way that this is evidence that Goku's base is as weak as you are portraying since ultimately this could just mean Piccolo got stronger. (More likely, it is a result of Frost' being severely weakened and therefore weak enough for Piccolo to have some kind of a chance.)
Well Jiren had to go beyond his limits to fight UI Goku, and then used up all of his power and then lost, and was still stronger than Golden Frieza and 17. And then he got hit by another big attack and dropped again. I would say maybe a few hundred times weaker, not thousands, and he actually used up a lot of power. Frost only crossed hands with Goku for a few seconds and didn't even take or use any big attacks.
Jiren was so weakened he could barely stand up. Frost was so weakened he could barely stand up. And whether it is a difference of a few hundred times weaker or thousands is completely irrelevant. The point is the difference can be multiple magnitudes in strength so we can't deduce where Piccolo stands compared to Base Goku based on his performance against Frost.
Jiren was pushed off by ssj Goku and final form Frieza but those characters aren't weak
"weak" is all relative. relative to DB standards Raditz is super strong but by DBZ standards he is pathetically weak. SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza are incredibly weak compared to the SSBKKx20 Goku and the SSBE Vegeta(post ep126 boost) that Jiren had been previously dominating.
ssj Goku has also shown he could fight at a god tier level.
Not sure what you are talking about. Care to be more specific?
And base Vegeta deflected a ki blast from kid Buu. Deflecting a small ki blast meant to be used on Krillin isn't that noteworthy.
Fair point. But still, it is still notable to say the least.
He was holding back and tired. They literally attacked him while he still couldn't even go ssj. And then he fought both of them at once as a ssj2.
Why would he be holding back? What reason would he possibly have to be holding back?
Imo kid Buu isn't much weaker than base super buu. I would say he is Super Buu minus the power of Mr. Buu, so at most he is like 50% weaker.
Yeah I can't help but vehemently disagree but this is still ultimately open to interpretation. IMO:

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>Super Buu>>SSJ Gotenks~SSJ3 Goku>=Kid Buu

I have them about 7x apart in strength.
I'm not sure if an anime only arc is the best way to try and judge power like that, not to mention he used a kamehameha which multiplies power. It's possible he got 10x stronger, but it isn't a confirmed fact.
This has quite literally nothing to do with a KHH. he powered up to full-power and it completely shattered Hit's time dimension. He needed Kaiokoenx10 to do that before. Therefore, he got 10x stronger.

Also, we are talking about the DBS anime. Therefore, it doesn't matter if it is anime only or not. Other mediums do not matter in this case.

There realistically isn't any way around Base Caulifla>>>>>Kid Buu based on the feats and statements in the show. Frankly,My personal opinion is that it would only take 0.1% of her power to dominate Kid Buu but you could probably go as high as saying she would need 10% without contradicting much. To say that Base Caulifla would need her full-power against Kid Buu or even that she would lose just isn't founded in reality. Goku's SSJ after BoG was superior to SSG as stated by himself and Beerus, and he got massively stronger since then only for Caulifla to match him in his base. Given that SSG is at a bare minimum 400x over SSJ3, that even if you lowball it as low as possible and assume that Goku didn't get any stronger since BoG(obviously he did but for the sake of being definitive), then he would STILL be 8x stronger than his old SSJ3 self in his Base form.

SSJ Goku(ToP)>>>SSJ Goku(post-ritual BoG)~SSG Goku>Base Goku ToP~Caulifla ToP

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:31 pm

PFM18 wrote: Both iterations of Super are a continuation of Toryama's original manga.
Then why does the Super anime have filler characters and references to filler moments from Kai?
Also, I'd like to see this supposed interview.
Actually looking into it this I believe it's a fake interview, but just to show you where I got it.
https://www.pojo.biz/board/archive/inde ... 27801.html
Toriyama-san: Well I dont know yet. I've planned some things with Gotenkusu, but he wont be the focus of the entire saga. Youll see as things develop. As for their strength, Gotenkusu is a little bit stronger, but you wouldnt notice a difference. Still, Son Goku will always be the most skilled martial artist! (Smiles) But Gotenkusu will not be the only person to go higher than son Goku.
Ok then what are you arguing for then? They could retcon anything at any time but the evidence is strongly in the favor of SSG>SSJ3 Vegetto.
My point is we shouldn't be relying so much on static multipliers when Toriyama clearly doesn't even take them into consideration when writing. Just look at the Black arc. SSB Vegito had trouble with Zamasu, who even SSB Goku was able to heavily damage.
That is a movie that has been since retconned and is no longer relevant to the current continuity and it has nothing to do with fusions having different multipliers than their constituents.
My point was multipliers don't always have to be the same. And that movie was really just as canon in anything else in Super. Yes the 70% line and tarble line are retconned, but in the anime version the line where Beerus said he used 10% on Vegeta was retconned and Gregory is an anime only character.
Well Cabba is far inferior to anyone involved here so I am not sure why you brought him up. It was stated that Caulifla had the power advantage against Base Goku but Goku had the advantage in experience and skill so he was winning anyway. Once she started adjusting to his fighting style he was forced to go SSJ2 and they fought evenly as SSJ2s. Therefore, their bases are equal if their SSJ2s are equal. Sure, you would expect her to be able to tank everything but I guess you could just chalk that up to Toei being weird because they are clearly equals in equivalent forms.
Again, Goku was tired and much weaker than usual. You are the same guy who said Frost became thousands of times weaker after being hit a few times, this version of Goku is even more tired and couldn't' even go regular ssj at first he was so tired.
Okay well that is all fine and dandy but between:
Weakened Jiren~SSJ Goku
Weakened Golden Freeza~Base Vegeta
Weakened SSJ Goku(Cell Games)<Tenshinhan
All of these are wrong, Jiren needed ssj Goku and Frieza to knock him off
Frieza laughed when base Vegeta said he would fight him even after knocking away his ki blast, and then Vegeta went SSB, not even ssj which you think would make him 50x stronger.
I don't remember ssj Goku ever being weaker than Tien. He was only weaker than Vegeta and Trunks, and if you count the anime Piccolo as well.
Jiren was so weakened he could barely stand up. Frost was so weakened he could barely stand up. And whether it is a difference of a few hundred times weaker or thousands is completely irrelevant. The point is the difference can be multiple magnitudes in strength so we can't deduce where Piccolo stands compared to Base Goku based on his performance against Frost.
The difference is Jiren was tired, Frost actually seemed to be faking it a bit as he was talking about how he needed to win for the children as his legs were shaking, lol. Frost was standing completely fine when fighting Piccolo.

Not sure what you are talking about. Care to be more specific?
When he fought Beerus as a ssj.
Why would he be holding back? What reason would he possibly have to be holding back?
Well not really holding back but he was having fun with them.
Yeah I can't help but vehemently disagree but this is still ultimately open to interpretation. IMO:

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>Super Buu>>SSJ Gotenks~SSJ3 Goku>=Kid Buu

I have them about 7x apart in strength.
If Gotenks and Gohan was really that much stronger than Goku, it's kind of a plot hole they didn't wish them to the Kia planet with the dragon balls to stop kid Buu. Vegeta chose to do the spirit bomb idea as he thought that was the best way to win.
This has quite literally nothing to do with a KHH. he powered up to full-power and it completely shattered Hit's time dimension. He needed Kaiokoenx10 to do that before. Therefore, he got 10x stronger.
maybe... It's still a filler arc that Toriyama wasn't involved with. the person who decided if he went kk or not was probably the guy who just happened to be assigned to that episode.
Also, we are talking about the DBS anime. Therefore, it doesn't matter if it is anime only or not. Other mediums do not matter in this case.
Ya, I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked at, but I'm saying it can't be used as solid proof he is supposed to be 10x stronger now. For all we know Hit was tired from the fight, as according to you he could possibly be thousands of times weaker at that point.
There realistically isn't any way around Base Caulifla>>>>>Kid Buu based on the feats and statements in the show. Frankly,My personal opinion is that it would only take 0.1% of her power to dominate Kid Buu but you could probably go as high as saying she would need 10% without contradicting much. To say that Base Caulifla would need her full-power against Kid Buu or even that she would lose just isn't founded in reality. Goku's SSJ after BoG was superior to SSG as stated by himself and Beerus, and he got massively stronger since then only for Caulifla to match him in his base. Given that SSG is at a bare minimum 400x over SSJ3, that even if you lowball it as low as possible and assume that Goku didn't get any stronger since BoG(obviously he did but for the sake of being definitive), then he would STILL be 8x stronger than his old SSJ3 self in his Base form.
A few months of training got Vegeta to post ritual Goku level. The boost couldn't have been as big as you say if that's possible imo.
SSJ Goku(ToP)>>>SSJ Goku(post-ritual BoG)~SSG Goku>Base Goku ToP~Caulifla ToP
Imo ssj Goku being SSG tier was retconned when he was able to go SSG again. I do think Goku got a big boost to where his base went from being below Frieza to above or around Buu, but I think his current ssj form is only around buu saga Vegito level. The writers just seemed to want to nerf him to make things more fare. An example is base future Trunks get scuffed up with his fight against ssj kid Trunks. So base future Trunks probably isn't that much above ssj kid Trunks based off of that and his base is around base Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:40 pm

Suupa Saiyajin Son Gokuu no Chikara Desuka vs. Desetsu no Suupa Saiyajin Broli
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:30 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Then why does the Super anime have filler characters and references to filler moments from Kai?
No, you're right. I didn't realize that. It makes sense.
Actually looking into it this I believe it's a fake interview, but just to show you where I got it.
https://www.pojo.biz/board/archive/inde ... 27801.html
Toriyama-san: Well I dont know yet. I've planned some things with Gotenkusu, but he wont be the focus of the entire saga. Youll see as things develop. As for their strength, Gotenkusu is a little bit stronger, but you wouldnt notice a difference. Still, Son Goku will always be the most skilled martial artist! (Smiles) But Gotenkusu will not be the only person to go higher than son Goku.
Alright a fake interview? So we are going back to Goku's statement implying that SSJ Gotenks would be stronger than him and going by Piccolo's confidence in SSJ Gotenks to beat Fat Buu. Therefore, SSJ Gotenks~SS3 Goku<SSJ3 Gotenks<Ultimate Gohan
My point is we shouldn't be relying so much on static multipliers when Toriyama clearly doesn't even take them into consideration when writing. Just look at the Black arc. SSB Vegito had trouble with Zamasu, who even SSB Goku was able to heavily damage.
So then we are going to just arbitrarily decide that these multipliers don't apply despite it being stated by official sources? Yes, SSB Vegetto/SSB Goku/Merged Zamasu stuff is mostly an inconsistency, but Zamasu did get stronger with the "Corrupted" version of himself that fought Vegetto.
My point was multipliers don't always have to be the same. And that movie was really just as canon in anything else in Super. Yes the 70% line and tarble line are retconned, but in the anime version the line where Beerus said he used 10% on Vegeta was retconned and Gregory is an anime only character.
Literally almost everything power scaling related was retconned from the movie going into Super. It holds absolutely no water in regards to Dragon Ball Super. There's no evidence for multipliers randomly changing when you fuse.
Again, Goku was tired and much weaker than usual.
You don't seem to understand the direction being made here. Being tired \=\ being the crap beaten out of you to the point of having difficulty standing up.
You are the same guy who said Frost became thousands of times weaker after being hit a few times
You are the same guy who said Frost became thousands of times weaker after being hit a few times
No that isn't at all what I said. I said the scene with Frost being used as a source for powerscaling is entirely unreliable because he could have been at anywhere from one half to one thousandth of his strength without contradicting anything.
All of these are wrong, Jiren needed ssj Goku and Frieza to knock him off
...Yeah SSJ Goku and Freeza knocked him off. Therefore, he was around SSJ Goku. I don't know how this is so crazy
Frieza laughed when base Vegeta said he would fight him even after knocking away his
That means absolutely nothing. Freeza being cocky is not anything legitimate to go off of. He was still cocky when Vegeta went into SSB and how did that work out?
I don't remember ssj Goku ever being weaker than Tien. He was only weaker than Vegeta and Trunks, and if you count the anime Piccolo as well.
So you are going to claim all of these wrong but you don't even remember what happened during this time? Yamcha and Tenshinhan made a comment that they needed to protect Goku because he was tired. And they did for a moment. And since we are going by the anime continuity this is valid.
The difference is Jiren was tired, Frost actually seemed to be faking it a bit as he was talking about how he needed to win for the children as his legs were shaking, lol. Frost was standing completely fine when fighting Piccolo.
What's more important isn't how much they have exhausted themselves but rather how much they were damaged. Goku beat the crap out of Frost to the point where he probably just wasn't able to draw out very much power by the end of it. Again, the point of this is it is just not reliable as a power scaling source given that we have no idea how weakened Frost is.
When he fought Beerus as a ssj.
Alright so first of all, you are going to say that his power was retconned but you are also going to simultaneously reference the power he exhibited that is supposed to be retconned? That makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.

Secondly, that is not "fighting on a god level" he retained the strength he had as a SSG in his SSJ form but he got massively stronger since then and regained the SSG transformation along with SSB. The SSJ that fought Beerus is pathetically weak compared to Jiren during this time.
Well not really holding back but he was having fun with them.
Goku enjoys fighting. This says nothing.

I
f Gotenks and Gohan was really that much stronger than Goku, it's kind of a plot hole they didn't wish them to the Kia planet with the dragon balls to stop kid Buu. Vegeta chose to do the spirit bomb idea as he thought that was the best way to win.
Goku suggested that they bring Gotenks and Gohan to Kai's planet to defeat him but Vegeta declined it saying that the Earth should save itself or something along those lines. No such plothole is formed.
Ya, I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked at, but I'm saying it can't be used as solid proof he is supposed to be 10x stronger now. For all we know Hit was tired from the fight, as according to you he could possibly be thousands of times weaker at that point.
Again, Hit did not get beaten to a pulp like the other situations I mentioned or do anything to even remotely exhausted, therefore there's no reason to believe that he has lost power. That's pure speculation.
A few months of training got Vegeta to post ritual Goku level. The boost couldn't have been as big as you say if that's possible imo.
So you are going to decide that the boost couldn't have been as big as was suggested because you have arbitrarily determined that Vegeta couldn't have caught up to Goku in the 6 months he trained with a godly being that trained him with an entirely different method than he had ever done before? I find that to be extremely weak evidence to say the least.
Imo ssj Goku being SSG tier was retconned when he was able to go SSG again. I do think Goku got a big boost to where his base went from being below Frieza to above or around Buu, but I think his current ssj form is only around buu saga Vegito level. The writers just seemed to want to nerf him to make things more fare. An example is base future Trunks get scuffed up with his fight against ssj kid Trunks. So base future Trunks probably isn't that much above ssj kid Trunks based off of that and his base is around base Goku and Vegeta.
There's no evidence that this is the case this is just your headcanon. Even if a short scuffle between both Trunks was valid, it is not enough evidence to overturn what was thoroughly established early in the series and reinforced throughout the series.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:57 pm

PFM18 wrote: Alright a fake interview? So we are going back to Goku's statement implying that SSJ Gotenks would be stronger than him and going by Piccolo's confidence in SSJ Gotenks to beat Fat Buu. Therefore, SSJ Gotenks~SS3 Goku<SSJ3 Gotenks<Ultimate Gohan
Well Goku never said what form of Gotenks and he was also holding back on Buu. He later admitted he could have beat fat Buu if he wanted to. I believe there is also the daizenshuu stating that after training the ROSAT Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, but did not mention Goku.
So then we are going to just arbitrarily decide that these multipliers don't apply despite it being stated by official sources? Yes, SSB Vegetto/SSB Goku/Merged Zamasu stuff is mostly an inconsistency, but Zamasu did get stronger with the "Corrupted" version of himself that fought Vegetto.
No, we don't really need to be arbitrary, it's just that static multipliers to every form was never actually stated in the manga and Toriyama seems to not write the story with them in mind.
Literally almost everything power scaling related was retconned from the movie going into Super. It holds absolutely no water in regards to Dragon Ball Super. There's no evidence for multipliers randomly changing when you fuse.
I think you misunderstood what I said. I agree the 70% line in the movie was retconned, I was just saying the 10% line in Super was also retconned. And my evidence for multipliers possibly shrinking with fusion is that by statements post ROSAT Gotenks arguably surpassed pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks quickly and definitely didn't seem to get 50x stronger, and in the anime base Vegito going ssj didn't really seem like that crazy of a boost. Also Whis implied training in their bases was best and not relying on transformations, but if multipliers were static that wouldn't make much sense. It's possible going ssj is just a release of a saiyans' potential, and when you train your base enough or fuse your base form is closer to your potential so the ssj form doesn't boost you as much. But ya that's just a theory.
You don't seem to understand the direction being made here. Being tired \=\ being the crap beaten out of you to the point of having difficulty standing up.
If I remember correct Goku was so tired he was having problems standing up and having trouble with fodder U3 robots before Caulifla came in to fight him.
No that isn't at all what I said. I said the scene with Frost being used as a source for powerscaling is entirely unreliable because he could have been at anywhere from one half to one thousandth of his strength without contradicting anything.
I mean you could say that, but it's a massive stretch. The fact Piccolo could put up a fight and that Buu was most likely written out of the tournament as he would be too strong are indicators Frost isn't that powerful. I would put him high Buu saga level max.
...Yeah SSJ Goku and Freeza knocked him off. Therefore, he was around SSJ Goku. I don't know how this is so crazy
It would probably put him at least 2x ssj Goku and Jiren was also mentally drained seemingly giving up already.
That means absolutely nothing. Freeza being cocky is not anything legitimate to go off of. He was still cocky when Vegeta went into SSB and how did that work out?
He was still cocky but he was noticeably scared. And if base Vegeta was near his level he could have just went ssj to beat him, and Goku wouldn't have had to go blue to kill a injured base Frieza.
So you are going to claim all of these wrong but you don't even remember what happened during this time? Yamcha and Tenshinhan made a comment that they needed to protect Goku because he was tired. And they did for a moment. And since we are going by the anime continuity this is valid.
Ok, I assumed that was from the anime, but them protecting him doesn't mean he is automatically weaker. Yamcha and Tien came together to help Goku and they both ended up getting beaten up anyways. Also Goku's fight with Cell was much more intense than his and Frost's.
Alright so first of all, you are going to say that his power was retconned but you are also going to simultaneously reference the power he exhibited that is supposed to be retconned? That makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.
I do, but like I said I would still put current ssj Goku probably at least close to ssj Vegito and I don't think ssj Vegito may only be like 10x weaker than BoG SSG.
Secondly, that is not "fighting on a god level" he retained the strength he had as a SSG in his SSJ form but he got massively stronger since then and regained the SSG transformation along with SSB. The SSJ that fought Beerus is pathetically weak compared to Jiren during this time.
That's true, but the writers don't care about that. They think Roshi with an amp can fight current base Goku and that Krillin can push Goku to go ssj. At this point anything is possible and they do whatever looks cool. Ssj Goku and Frieza together is extremely iconic and they wanted that to be what finished Jiren. Jiren went from beating Golden Frieza to having final form Frieza and base Goku challenge him. Not to mention even when he wasn't tired final form Frieza was able to force him to block and back up. Super just made it so transformations really don't seem to do much. They are really just superficial color changes we are told make them stronger. The only time they actually made it look like the transformations made a difference was when Goku first fought Jiren.
Goku suggested that they bring Gotenks and Gohan to Kai's planet to defeat him but Vegeta declined it saying that the Earth should save itself or something along those lines. No such plothole is formed.
Vegeta wouldn't risk everything just because he wants Earth to save itself. I knew the option was brought up, but if they were really dozens of times stronger Vegeta should have just went with that. But if they were both around ssj3 Goku tier Vegeta's decision would make sense and ssj3 Goku couldn't beat kid Buu and they may end up just getting absorbed and making things worse.
Again, Hit did not get beaten to a pulp like the other situations I mentioned or do anything to even remotely exhausted, therefore there's no reason to believe that he has lost power. That's pure speculation.
But then we have Hit performing as well as KKx20 Goku in the next arc in one fight but then also only at the same level as SSG a few episodes earlier. Hit is just too reliant on his techniques than actual power to say for certain Goku got 10x stronger.
So you are going to decide that the boost couldn't have been as big as was suggested because you have arbitrarily determined that Vegeta couldn't have caught up to Goku in the 6 months he trained with a godly being that trained him with an entirely different method than he had ever done before? I find that to be extremely weak evidence to say the least.
Vegeta did not do "godly training". We know exactly what he did. He did chores and lifted weights and he told us when Goku showed up that was all he did. It was only after Goku showed up when they trained in Whis' special stalf room did they do some new training to harness their ki inside themselves.
There's no evidence that this is the case this is just your headcanon. Even if a short scuffle between both Trunks was valid, it is not enough evidence to overturn what was thoroughly established early in the series and reinforced throughout the series.
I'm not really throwing it out. Goku got a boost from SSG, but his ssj didn't retain that power. Like I've mentioned before, if his regular ssj form was SSG level and Beerus told him he was going at 100%, why didn't Goku go ssj2 (he did this many times in Super) to just easily beat Beerus? Goku himself didn't even realize he was in ssj, so that is another hint that something wasn't normal. Plus Toriyama said he wouldn't need SSG anymore because he absorbed it, but that was cleary retconned as he now goes SSG again, and Toriyama also said he would not go ssj2 and ssj3 anymore, but that was retconned as well.
If we do go with ssj Goku stayed the same level as SSG, then I would also go with SSG being barely stronger than regular ssj Vegito. If we go with SSG being stronger than ssj3 Vegito I would say Goku would have to go at least ssj3 to regain the power of an SSG after he lost the power up. And I agree it's headcanon, practically all of this is head anon as they have different writers working on different episodes never being consistent and not carring to explain where the characters are in terms of power.

supercat
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by supercat » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:02 am

PFM18 drew some really solid points. It's extremely unlikely Kid Buu could take on Base Caulifla and win. Kid Buu along with his many incarnations really aren't much by the time the time of RoF much less the ToP.

Base Caulifla should be comparable to SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga, given how powerful Base Goku was by the time he faced her; it's really quite simple. Goku did after all get around 10x stronger between the Universe 6 tournament and the ToP; so assuming he was around SSJ Vegetto-tier during the Universe 6 tournament, he probably surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto by the time the ToP started.

Also, Android 17 was barely able to pick himself up after tanking Jiren's blast. No way he was still emanating with his usual SSB-tier power. He was probably in the worst condition of the three; Goku even made a remark about it before asking him to practically sit out. Off topic, but when Android 17 stood in the way of Jiren's blast, he was able to stop the blast momentarily and make Jiren really push for it. He was all grunting and yelling to push his blast through the resistance that Android 17 was putting up; both indicators that actual effort was being put forth.

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