The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:02 pm

PFM18 wrote: I didn't mean serious from a non-universe perspective. I mean as in the fact that Future Trunks was not serious during this altercation I believe it is fair to say he wasn't using much power and it really would be a shitty scene if Kid trunks punched him and it did absolutely nothing. Dabura could have been any time within the 13 years since we have seen Future Trunks in the story so I don't think much can be drawn from that. "God tier" as far as DBS goes doesn't necessarily mean "Super Saiyan God tier" because SSG really isnt very strong in the scope of things. I think he was stronger than SSG but not God tier within the series until he reaches Super Saiyan Rage, prior to that he couldn't touch SSB or even SSJ3 for that matter. It is pretty clear that if he can compete with Goku's SSJ2 at all then he definitely is beyond Vegetto from the Buu saga, it is more of a question of whether you think it is stupid that that is the case or not.
The problem is the writers themselves aren't very consistent, and I don't really think trying to linearly power scale off the anime works at all. I look at both the anime and manga, look at major story elements, and try to see what the writers are trying to imply. Also I try to scale off of Goku and Vegeta last as their powers are unkown, plus we don't know when they are holding back or by how much.

For the universe 6 arc 2 characters we have an idea for how strong they are, would be Piccolo and Buu. Buu didn't participate, but he was implied to be stronger than Piccolo by Goku, by multiple people in the RoF arc, and he did the best against Beerus besides rage Vegeta in the BoG arc. Plus Piccolo was still weaker than Cell/Dabura in the Buu saga and he hasn't really shown much signs of growth up to the U6 arc.
So from this we know Piccolo<Buu. Piccolo's only fight was against final form Frost, who wasn't at peak condition. However Frost shouldn't be far off from his full power considering he didn't fight that long, and I don't even think him being weaker was mentioned in the manga. Piccolo was able to fight pretty evenly against Frost in the manga, though it was confirmed he was using up more power than Frost, and in the anime he was shown to be weaker as well, but could still react to Frost's attacks and block them. So Piccolo<Frost, but not by a crazy amount.
Now how strong is frost compared to the other U6 fighters? Well in the manga Vados calls him U6's strongest warrior, so at the very least I would say he is stronger than base Cabba (really the only other "warrior" U6 had since Hit was an assassin and I don't know what to call Botamo, who is the weakest out of them anyways, and Magetta).
I can't say by how much weaker base Cabba is compared to Frost, but considering he should definitely be weaker, I would say at max he is around Piccolo level.
So we have base Cabba<=>Piccolo<Frost<=>Buu
For Trunks, in the flash back he was weaker than Dabura with ssj, but stronger with ssj2. So at that time his ssj was around Piccolo level and his ssj2 around maybe Frost level. But he clearly got a lot stronger since then. His ssj2 got so strong he was as strong as ssj3 Goku who has gotten stronger since the Buu arc. There is not much to scale off of Trunks so I'll use Goku for a bit. Goku's base is at the very least around Piccolo level in the manga, and in the anime he is shown to be stronger but Piccolo charging up was enough to push him back. Goku also lost a sparing match to Buu who trained for a few hours and had to go ssj2 to fight mystic Gohan who was buu saga mystic Gohan level the day before, implied by Piccolo. Based off of that I'll say base Goku is at least around Cell to Buu level, with Trunks being around the same. Trunks in the manga was shown to be one shot by SSG in the manga, and one shot by ssj3 Goku who absorbed god power in the anime. So I think it is reasonable to say even at full power Trunks is weaker than any version of SSG, and if he was really supposed to be stronger than BoG SSG something like that would of been shown, not getting one shot by SSG. Clearly the implication was SSG>Trunks.
So at least for the manga it probably goes like this
base Cabba<=>Piccolo<base Goku<=>Frost<=>Buu<Zamasu<ssj2 Trunks<SSG

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:39 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
PFM18 wrote: I didn't mean serious from a non-universe perspective. I mean as in the fact that Future Trunks was not serious during this altercation I believe it is fair to say he wasn't using much power and it really would be a shitty scene if Kid trunks punched him and it did absolutely nothing. Dabura could have been any time within the 13 years since we have seen Future Trunks in the story so I don't think much can be drawn from that. "God tier" as far as DBS goes doesn't necessarily mean "Super Saiyan God tier" because SSG really isnt very strong in the scope of things. I think he was stronger than SSG but not God tier within the series until he reaches Super Saiyan Rage, prior to that he couldn't touch SSB or even SSJ3 for that matter. It is pretty clear that if he can compete with Goku's SSJ2 at all then he definitely is beyond Vegetto from the Buu saga, it is more of a question of whether you think it is stupid that that is the case or not.
The problem is the writers themselves aren't very consistent, and I don't really think trying to linearly power scale off the anime works at all. I look at both the anime and manga, look at major story elements, and try to see what the writers are trying to imply. Also I try to scale off of Goku and Vegeta last as their powers are unkown, plus we don't know when they are holding back or by how much.

For the universe 6 arc 2 characters we have an idea for how strong they are, would be Piccolo and Buu. Buu didn't participate, but he was implied to be stronger than Piccolo by Goku, by multiple people in the RoF arc, and he did the best against Beerus besides rage Vegeta in the BoG arc. Plus Piccolo was still weaker than Cell/Dabura in the Buu saga and he hasn't really shown much signs of growth up to the U6 arc.
So from this we know Piccolo<Buu. Piccolo's only fight was against final form Frost, who wasn't at peak condition. However Frost shouldn't be far off from his full power considering he didn't fight that long, and I don't even think him being weaker was mentioned in the manga. Piccolo was able to fight pretty evenly against Frost in the manga, though it was confirmed he was using up more power than Frost, and in the anime he was shown to be weaker as well, but could still react to Frost's attacks and block them. So Piccolo<Frost, but not by a crazy amount.
Now how strong is frost compared to the other U6 fighters? Well in the manga Vados calls him U6's strongest warrior, so at the very least I would say he is stronger than base Cabba (really the only other "warrior" U6 had since Hit was an assassin and I don't know what to call Botamo, who is the weakest out of them anyways, and Magetta).
I can't say by how much weaker base Cabba is compared to Frost, but considering he should definitely be weaker, I would say at max he is around Piccolo level.
So we have base Cabba<=>Piccolo<Frost<=>Buu
For Trunks, in the flash back he was weaker than Dabura with ssj, but stronger with ssj2. So at that time his ssj was around Piccolo level and his ssj2 around maybe Frost level. But he clearly got a lot stronger since then. His ssj2 got so strong he was as strong as ssj3 Goku who has gotten stronger since the Buu arc. There is not much to scale off of Trunks so I'll use Goku for a bit. Goku's base is at the very least around Piccolo level in the manga, and in the anime he is shown to be stronger but Piccolo charging up was enough to push him back. Goku also lost a sparing match to Buu who trained for a few hours and had to go ssj2 to fight mystic Gohan who was buu saga mystic Gohan level the day before, implied by Piccolo. Based off of that I'll say base Goku is at least around Cell to Buu level, with Trunks being around the same. Trunks in the manga was shown to be one shot by SSG in the manga, and one shot by ssj3 Goku who absorbed god power in the anime. So I think it is reasonable to say even at full power Trunks is weaker than any version of SSG, and if he was really supposed to be stronger than BoG SSG something like that would of been shown, not getting one shot by SSG. Clearly the implication was SSG>Trunks.
So at least for the manga it probably goes like this
base Cabba<=>Piccolo<base Goku<=>Frost<=>Buu<Zamasu<ssj2 Trunks<SSG
You may use the anime and manga and that might be your prerogative but in my mind it is just too different to be using alongside each other. They are just completely different continuities and they shouldn't be used in tandem with each other. For example, Trunks having random healing powers and Goku having the Hakai is not reflected at all in the anime.

I am not sure that it can be definitively concluded that Buu>Piccolo. It is just implied that people would like him to be there more so than it is implied with Piccolo. IIRC there wasn't any explicit mention of Piccolo being inferior to Buu. Frost was stronger than Piccolo but I think you may be downplaying the condition in which Frost was in after the fight with Goku. He had trouble even standing up and gave his little fake speeches about why he needed to win and what not as he was trying to get up. Then he goes on to fight Piccolo and still shows his superiority even if it isn't a particularly large amount. But considering the level of damage that Frost sustained against Goku I think it would definitely be a stretch to say that Piccolo is very close to Frost at full strength. I see it as akin to Jiren being heavily damaged and in that situation GOlden Freeza could compete with him. I am honestly confused how you deduced that Cabab and Piccolo are around the same level. If you use statements from the manga and apply them to the anime then sure that might make sense but I do not subscribe to that notion. I also don't think that Gohan's ultimate form was ever directly implied to be the same as it was during the Buu arc. Piccolo kept referring to "that power" or something along those lines but I believe he was referring to the ultimate form itself and there is no way to tell for sure. As far as Trunks being weaker than any version of SSG, I don't think that applies to the original Super Saiyan God because his Super Saiyan should be beyond that since BoG SSG ~ SSJ at the end of BoG and Trunks has clearly surpassed that point. But yes, I agree Goku's current SSG should be able to one shot Trunks. There is a massive difference between Goku's current SSG and the SSG that was during BoG. At this point, BoG SSG Goku is kind of nothing now. So I think lumping SSG together as though the BoG iteration and the BG/ToP arc SSG are remotely close in power is a little bit misguided.

Like I said, to me, using the manga and anime in tandem with each other to explain one another doesn't make much sense to me because they are so different and are written by different people for all the specific details. I can't speak for the manga, but as far as the anime goes, I think it is pretty ridiculous to imply that Goku in base is around Cell to Buu range. Based on what has been shown, his base should be stronger than anything we saw in Z.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:05 am

PFM18 wrote:No, I do not check any and every episode that I reference before posting no. I don't think that is really particularly realistic to do on every post. I apologize if I was mistaken on that

And no, Vegtea surpassing Super Saiyan God in regular Super Saiyan is not a theory that is all but explicitly stated to the audience. Goku is ATLEAST equal to SSG in his normal SSJ form at the end of the fight with Beerus. He said he doesn't feel weaker and performs atleast as well as his SSG self just prior. Nothing implied he lost this boost. Then, Vegeta goes to train with Whis first and Goku comments that Vegeta surpassed him. This is something that the story tried to thoroughly emphasize, that being the immense boost that Goku and Vegeta received during this time frame. This is further reinforced several times. So, no I do not think that is a theory as much as it is an accepted fact.
Posting information without checking its veracity beforehand is counterproductive in any aspect. I’m not saying there is a explicit rule, but this should be encouraged, specially among a community that is concerned with accuracy on its content.

That said, after checking everything from episode 13 and on, the first time Super Saiyan God was explicitly said to be surpassed was in episode 15, when Vegeta was reflecting on Goku’s evolution while he fought Beerus. It’s interesting that he also references SSG as the level of a god (kami no iki). Contradicting what Vegeta thought, in episode 18 Whis gives an exposition about how Goku and Vegeta compare to the powerlevel of a god, implying they were barely able to sense their energy. Besides, in episodes 24 and 25 Super Saiyan Blue is described to be the step up from Super Saiyan God. It’s worth pointing that it was only after witnessing this form North Kai assumed Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God and that it was due to the training on Beerus’ planet. (Note: Freeza also comments the Super Saiyan God’s name suggests Goku is in a level closer to that of gods and that it was achieved through extreme training, which is also confirmed by Goku himself). In episode 27, Krillin assumes pretty much the same thing about Vegeta after seeing his SSB form. It’s further reinforced in episode 81 by U9 Supreme Kai that Blue has power rivalling the gods’, which is never said about the regular Super Saiyan despite he using the form against Bergamo.

In another hand, it was only in episode 110 that God of Destruction level is mentioned, as opposed to the generic god level from the past 109 episodes, which pretty much implies it’s only from this point we have a clear assessment of Super Saiyan God and God of Destruction’s difference. For the record, in episode 116 Ultra Instinct is mentioned to be the state of the gods and in episode 130 it’s called the limit-breaking power of the gods. Then, in episode 125 Shin comments on Toppo’s energy being almost identical to a god and Vermoud confirms he is at God of Destruction level.

In conclusion, it’s only between episodes 13 and 15 that we have stuff supporting the idea that the regular Super Saiyan and SSG are comparable. Even if you think Whis is not including SSG while justifying his training method, the SSB stuff back ups the opposite idea.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:27 am

PFM18 wrote: You may use the anime and manga and that might be your prerogative but in my mind it is just too different to be using alongside each other. They are just completely different continuities and they shouldn't be used in tandem with each other. For example, Trunks having random healing powers and Goku having the Hakai is not reflected at all in the anime.
Of course I agree there are things that are different, I was using both to try and formulate what Toriyama's vision is.
I am not sure that it can be definitively concluded that Buu>Piccolo. It is just implied that people would like him to be there more so than it is implied with Piccolo. IIRC there wasn't any explicit mention of Piccolo being inferior to Buu. Frost was stronger than Piccolo but I think you may be downplaying the condition in which Frost was in after the fight with Goku. He had trouble even standing up and gave his little fake speeches about why he needed to win and what not as he was trying to get up. Then he goes on to fight Piccolo and still shows his superiority even if it isn't a particularly large amount. But considering the level of damage that Frost sustained against Goku I think it would definitely be a stretch to say that Piccolo is very close to Frost at full strength. I see it as akin to Jiren being heavily damaged and in that situation GOlden Freeza could compete with him.
Frieza fought multiple opponents in the Frieza arc, took a kkx20 kamehameha head on, took a spirit bomb point blank and got part of his tail blown off, got beaten up by ssj Goku, and was still able to charge up to full power and fight. While Frost wasn't in peak condition, to say he was anything less than say around 80% is a stretch.
I am honestly confused how you deduced that Cabab and Piccolo are around the same level. If you use statements from the manga and apply them to the anime then sure that might make sense but I do not subscribe to that notion.
Well in the anime Frost did better against base and ssj Goku than base Cabba did against base and ssj Vegeta. Base Cabba is arguably weaker than assault form Frost, let alone final form Frost.
I also don't think that Gohan's ultimate form was ever directly implied to be the same as it was during the Buu arc. Piccolo kept referring to "that power" or something along those lines but I believe he was referring to the ultimate form itself and there is no way to tell for sure.
I guess it wasn't 100% confirmed, but it seemed implied to me. At the very least there is no reason for it to be much stronger at that point. And after he got it Piccolo said he wanted to train Gohan to reach a new level, further implying what he just go wasn't the "further level". I would liken it to how Dende released Gohan's power on Namek, but it didn't reach its peak until fighting Frieza. The power he used against Buu and when he awakened it again with Piccolo was just the original awakened power. Training with Piccolo allowed him to completely pull it out.
As far as Trunks being weaker than any version of SSG, I don't think that applies to the original Super Saiyan God because his Super Saiyan should be beyond that since BoG SSG ~ SSJ at the end of BoG and Trunks has clearly surpassed that point. But yes, I agree Goku's current SSG should be able to one shot Trunks. There is a massive difference between Goku's current SSG and the SSG that was during BoG. At this point, BoG SSG Goku is kind of nothing now. So I think lumping SSG together as though the BoG iteration and the BG/ToP arc SSG are remotely close in power is a little bit misguided.
Like I said, to me, using the manga and anime in tandem with each other to explain one another doesn't make much sense to me because they are so different and are written by different people for all the specific details. I can't speak for the manga, but as far as the anime goes, I think it is pretty ridiculous to imply that Goku in base is around Cell to Buu range. Based on what has been shown, his base should be stronger than anything we saw in Z.
In the anime I have base Goku, when dead serious and using all of his skill, at around base Vegito/Buuhan level. I just don't think any other saiyan but Vegeta is on that level. Base Goku fighting ssj2 Caulifla, fighting Beerus in the Monaka outfit, fighting RoF Frieza, keeping up with true golden Frieza for a few seconds, surviving hakai energy that made true golden Frieza struggle, fighting Hit landing a hit and making him bleed, and fighting Jiren in the finale are all things I can't really see any other saiyan besides Vegeta even coming close to.
The thing is power scaling is all over the place in the anime. There are also things like Krillin forcing Goku to go ssj, Gohan before he got strong again sparing evenly with him, him getting hurt by a bullet from a thug and saying it was because he was rusty, ect. that make him look weak sometimes

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:54 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
That said, after checking everything from episode 13 and on, the first time Super Saiyan God was explicitly said to be surpassed was in episode 15, when Vegeta was reflecting on Goku’s evolution while he fought Beerus. It’s interesting that he also references SSG as the level of a god (kami no iki). Contradicting what Vegeta thought, in episode 18 Whis gives an exposition about how Goku and Vegeta compare to the powerlevel of a god, implying they were barely able to sense their energy. Besides, in episodes 24 and 25 Super Saiyan Blue is described to be the step up from Super Saiyan God. It’s worth pointing that it was only after witnessing this form North Kai assumed Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God and that it was due to the training on Beerus’ planet. (Note: Freeza also comments the Super Saiyan God’s name suggests Goku is in a level closer to that of gods and that it was achieved through extreme training, which is also confirmed by Goku himself). In episode 27, Krillin assumes pretty much the same thing about Vegeta after seeing his SSB form. It’s further reinforced in episode 81 by U9 Supreme Kai that Blue has power rivalling the gods’, which is never said about the regular Super Saiyan despite he using the form against Bergamo.

In another hand, it was only in episode 110 that God of Destruction level is mentioned, as opposed to the generic god level from the past 109 episodes, which pretty much implies it’s only from this point we have a clear assessment of Super Saiyan God and God of Destruction’s difference. For the record, in episode 116 Ultra Instinct is mentioned to be the state of the gods and in episode 130 it’s called the limit-breaking power of the gods. Then, in episode 125 Shin comments on Toppo’s energy being almost identical to a god and Vermoud confirms he is at God of Destruction level.
Yeah so normal SSJ atleast became equal to SSG during their fight and Vegeta confirms that this is the case afterwards. So not only did Beerus say it, but Goku says he didn't feel weaker during the fight, he performed just as well, and Vegeta confirms that this is the case. Episode 18 does not serve to contradict what Vegeta thought because Whis is referring to the level of the Gods as in the Gods of Destruction. That would make sense considering that Beerus was atleast 1000x stronger than Goku as a SSG when they fought. It was just there to emphasize how far behind Goku and Vegeta still are, and the comparison would have been much worse had Goku not absorbed the God power and had his normal SSj ~ SSG. (worse as in more severse than comparing a tree to the castle. more like a grain of sand to a castle or something) Yes, upon going SSB North Kaio mentions that he has surpassed the Super Saiyan God, because well, Super Saiyan Blue is the next step like you said. It doesn't necessarily mean that Goku isn't already stronger than SSG in his normal SSJ form. Besides, he wouldn't have God ki until going SSB and that would make this comparison make sense now that he is a God, he has surpassed the previous God state he had before. Yes, normal Super Saiyan does not have power rivaling the Gods, but neither does Goku's original SSG transformation, it was nothing to Beerus. SSB does have power rivaling the Gods, it is tremendously more powerful than normal SSJ so it would make sense one would rival the Gods and the other one doesn't.
In conclusion, it’s only between episodes 13 and 15 that we have stuff supporting the idea that the regular Super Saiyan and SSG are comparable. Even if you think Whis is not including SSG while justifying his training method, the SSB stuff back ups the opposite idea.
If normal SSJ and SSG are comparable, then it would hold that Base would just be this SSG level/50. If Goku never did make this gain to make his SSJ ~ SSG then it never would have been possible for 1st Form Freeza to show up dominate everybody, go final form and become hundreds of times stronger, and still lose to Base Goku, for Goku to be able to do anything to Beerus in the Monaka costume while he is in base, or being shown to be way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in Base. Or, when Goku in Base who is clearly not even trying,(suppressed) competes with a very powered up Majin Buu. Mind you, prior to absorbing SSG against Beerus, he was weaker than Namek Freeza in base according to Beerus, so for him to compete with Buu or SSJ3 Gotenks that means his base got thousands of times stronger and it can only be reconciled with the fact that Goku's SSJ became ~ SSG after the BoG fight, as shown by several things.

So yeah, in conclusion, only between episodes 13-15 do we have stuff supporting SSJ~SSG except, ya know, the several examples that came after that which reinforce this idea.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:22 am

PFM18 wrote:Yeah so normal SSJ atleast became equal to SSG during their fight and Vegeta confirms that this is the case afterwards. So not only did Beerus say it, but Goku says he didn't feel weaker during the fight, he performed just as well, and Vegeta confirms that this is the case. Episode 18 does not serve to contradict what Vegeta thought because Whis is referring to the level of the Gods as in the Gods of Destruction. That would make sense considering that Beerus was atleast 1000x stronger than Goku as a SSG when they fought. It was just there to emphasize how far behind Goku and Vegeta still are, and the comparison would have been much worse had Goku not absorbed the God power and had his normal SSj ~ SSG. (worse as in more severse than comparing a tree to the castle. more like a grain of sand to a castle or something) Yes, upon going SSB North Kaio mentions that he has surpassed the Super Saiyan God, because well, Super Saiyan Blue is the next step like you said. It doesn't necessarily mean that Goku isn't already stronger than SSG in his normal SSJ form. Besides, he wouldn't have God ki until going SSB and that would make this comparison make sense now that he is a God, he has surpassed the previous God state he had before. Yes, normal Super Saiyan does not have power rivaling the Gods, but neither does Goku's original SSG transformation, it was nothing to Beerus. SSB does have power rivaling the Gods, it is tremendously more powerful than normal SSJ so it would make sense one would rival the Gods and the other one doesn't.

If normal SSJ and SSG are comparable, then it would hold that Base would just be this SSG level/50. If Goku never did make this gain to make his SSJ ~ SSG then it never would have been possible for 1st Form Freeza to show up dominate everybody, go final form and become hundreds of times stronger, and still lose to Base Goku, for Goku to be able to do anything to Beerus in the Monaka costume while he is in base, or being shown to be way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in Base. Or, when Goku in Base who is clearly not even trying,(suppressed) competes with a very powered up Majin Buu. Mind you, prior to absorbing SSG against Beerus, he was weaker than Namek Freeza in base according to Beerus, so for him to compete with Buu or SSJ3 Gotenks that means his base got thousands of times stronger and it can only be reconciled with the fact that Goku's SSJ became ~ SSG after the BoG fight, as shown by several things.

So yeah, in conclusion, only between episodes 13-15 do we have stuff supporting SSJ~SSG except, ya know, the several examples that came after that which reinforce this idea.
If I wasn't clear enough, Whis words "the level of the gods" in episode 18 in a similar way Vegeta did in relation to SSG in episode 15 and in every other instance until Whis himself commented on Jiren's strength, so I don't see how you came to the conclusion Whis is only referring to the Gods of Destruction in that sentence when he wasn't that clear. "God level" (kami no iki) is a very generic term, which is often used to refer to Goku and Beerus between episodes 11 and 15 (the climax and aftermath of Battle of Gods Arc to be precise). More importantly, the North Kai, Freeza and Krillin all suggest the power of Super Saiyan God could only be achieved with Whis' extreme training, if not by borrowing the power of five other Saiyans.

The several examples you brought don't have any relation to the discussion at hand. Hundreds/thousands of times stronger? The series doesn't provide numbers to Beerus, Freeza or anyone else, so those figures were just made up. Besides, Beerus in Monaka's costume was said to be handicapped, so this suggests nothing. Being stronger than Gotenks is no big deal at all, given how many people surpassed him in the Boo Arc itself. I believe it was already said in this thread that Boo's speed was the only thing especifically said to have increased in the Japanese line structure. For your last point, which summarizes this debacle, we don't have clear frames of power jumps other than Hit's time-skip and Goku's kaioken, so there is hardly anything to reconcile.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:49 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Yeah so normal SSJ atleast became equal to SSG during their fight and Vegeta confirms that this is the case afterwards. So not only did Beerus say it, but Goku says he didn't feel weaker during the fight, he performed just as well, and Vegeta confirms that this is the case. Episode 18 does not serve to contradict what Vegeta thought because Whis is referring to the level of the Gods as in the Gods of Destruction. That would make sense considering that Beerus was atleast 1000x stronger than Goku as a SSG when they fought. It was just there to emphasize how far behind Goku and Vegeta still are, and the comparison would have been much worse had Goku not absorbed the God power and had his normal SSj ~ SSG. (worse as in more severse than comparing a tree to the castle. more like a grain of sand to a castle or something) Yes, upon going SSB North Kaio mentions that he has surpassed the Super Saiyan God, because well, Super Saiyan Blue is the next step like you said. It doesn't necessarily mean that Goku isn't already stronger than SSG in his normal SSJ form. Besides, he wouldn't have God ki until going SSB and that would make this comparison make sense now that he is a God, he has surpassed the previous God state he had before. Yes, normal Super Saiyan does not have power rivaling the Gods, but neither does Goku's original SSG transformation, it was nothing to Beerus. SSB does have power rivaling the Gods, it is tremendously more powerful than normal SSJ so it would make sense one would rival the Gods and the other one doesn't.

If normal SSJ and SSG are comparable, then it would hold that Base would just be this SSG level/50. If Goku never did make this gain to make his SSJ ~ SSG then it never would have been possible for 1st Form Freeza to show up dominate everybody, go final form and become hundreds of times stronger, and still lose to Base Goku, for Goku to be able to do anything to Beerus in the Monaka costume while he is in base, or being shown to be way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in Base. Or, when Goku in Base who is clearly not even trying,(suppressed) competes with a very powered up Majin Buu. Mind you, prior to absorbing SSG against Beerus, he was weaker than Namek Freeza in base according to Beerus, so for him to compete with Buu or SSJ3 Gotenks that means his base got thousands of times stronger and it can only be reconciled with the fact that Goku's SSJ became ~ SSG after the BoG fight, as shown by several things.

So yeah, in conclusion, only between episodes 13-15 do we have stuff supporting SSJ~SSG except, ya know, the several examples that came after that which reinforce this idea.
If I wasn't clear enough, Whis words "the level of the gods" in episode 18 in a similar way Vegeta did in relation to SSG in episode 15 and in every other instance until Whis himself commented on Jiren's strength, so I don't see how you came to the conclusion Whis is only referring to the Gods of Destruction in that sentence when he wasn't that clear. "God level" (kami no iki) is a very generic term, which is often used to refer to Goku and Beerus between episodes 11 and 15 (the climax and aftermath of Battle of Gods Arc to be precise).

The several examples you brought don't have any relation to the discussion at hand. Hundreds/thousands of times stronger? The series doesn't provide numbers to Beerus, Freeza or anyone else, so those figures were just made up. Besides, Beerus in Monaka's costume was said to be handicapped, so this suggests nothing. Being stronger than Gotenks is no big deal at all, given how many people surpassed him in the Boo Arc itself. I believe it was already said in this thread that Boo's speed was the only thing especifically said to have increased in the Japanese line structure. For your last point, which summarizes this debacle, we don't have clear frames of power jumps other than Hit's time-skip and Goku's kaioken, so there is hardly anything to reconcile.
The examples I gave are certainly related to the discussion at hand because if Whis was talking about Goku being a tree compared to SSG power then it wouldn't have been possible for Goku to be doing all the things I mentioned. He is close to his SSG self, his SSJ is ~ after BoG and his base is obviously that SSG power/50. If this wasn't the case, and Whis actually meant in ep 18 that Goku wasn't close to SSG instead of being close to GoDs, then it wouldn't be possible for Freeza to crush everyone in his 1st form, become 100+ times stronger and still lose to Goku in base, for Goku to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in Base, to be able to compete with a powered up Buu in base, or to be able to do anything to Beerus in Base when he was in the Monaka costume. Especially when it was established that Goku was weaker than Namek Freeza in Base per Beerus's comment on North Kaio's planet.

Yes, the figures I made were "made up" but only in the same way that any numbers used in the series are "made up", but they are rationalized by things in the series. 1st Form Freeza went from from 530k on Namek to 60 Million in his Final Form when he said he was using 50% of his power before bulking up against SSJ Goku, this is a 113x boost from 1st -> 4th form. It would only be reasonable to assume the difference between forms is the same as it was before and Freeza became over a hundred times stronger. I said atleast a thousand times stronger because Beerus said Goku was weaker than Freeza in base and then he becomes much much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Going from Namek Freeza -> SSJ3 Gotenks is a very very conservative 1000x difference so it follows that Goku's Base got atleast 1000x stronger. I said hundreds if not thousands of times because Goku clearly got atleast hundreds or thousands of times stronger from the end of BoG and yet he is still weaker than Beerus when he is ToP SSBKKx20, so it holds that during BoG against SSG Goku Beerus was atleast a thousand times stronger than Goku at this time. So yes, they are "made up" only because they are not explicitly stated, but they are rationalized by things that are implied in the series.

More importantly, the North Kai, Freeza and Krillin all suggest the power of Super Saiyan God could only be achieved with Whis' extreme training, if not by borrowing the power of five other Saiyans.
This doesn't contradict anything I said and I am not sure why you said it. Yes, obviously for Goku/Vegeta to reach the power of Super Saiyan God there has to be the SSG ritual or Whis's extreme training. I didn't imply that wasn't the case nor did anybody else. Goku reached that power by receiving the ritual and then absorbing the power he received from the ritual and Vegeta achieved it by training with Whis.

Yes, Beerus was handicapped against Monaka, obviously, But if Goku wasn't at least magnitudes stronger than SSJ3 Goku from episode 5 then it wouldn't matter if Beerus was handicapped because he would just flick Goku and he would get knocked out like it happened in episode 5. I am not sure how you conclude that Goku's base going from Namek Freeza level to being able to one shot SSJ3 Gotenks is "not a big deal." Goku could barely match Gotenks's SSJ in his SSJ3 form during the Buu saga and now he can one shot this Gotenks in his base form. This is a massive increase in power that reinforces the idea that Goku absorbed the God power.(He doesn't actually have God ki unless he is in a god form though, to be clear. "Godly base" is stupid.)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:22 pm

PFM18 wrote:The examples I gave are certainly related to the discussion at hand because if Whis was talking about Goku being a tree compared to SSG power then it wouldn't have been possible for Goku to be doing all the things I mentioned.
That's because you are thinking too much about Daizenshuu powerlevels and less about the actual point of discussion. I can totally understand this reasoning, but these power gaps are known around here to be very speculative. To not hinder an objetive discussion about what the characters are telling us, let's leave them aside for the moment.
PFM18 wrote:
More importantly, the North Kai, Freeza and Krillin all suggest the power of Super Saiyan God could only be achieved with Whis' extreme training, if not by borrowing the power of five other Saiyans.
This doesn't contradict anything I said and I am not sure why you said it. Yes, obviously for Goku/Vegeta to reach the power of Super Saiyan God there has to be the SSG ritual or Whis's extreme training. I didn't imply that wasn't the case nor did anybody else. Goku reached that power by receiving the ritual and then absorbing the power he received from the ritual and Vegeta achieved it by training with Whis.
Pardon, I phrased it in an ambiguous way. Strickly speaking, these characters implied both Goku and Vegeta obtained the power of a SSG due to extreme training: the North Kai specifically wonders about Goku's training on Beerus' planet (I guess this counts as reobtaining the power); Freeza relates SSG to extreme training and Goku confirms it, and Krillin says Vegeta obtained the power of a SSG as well. In case I said something you didn't understand, I suggest checking episodes 24, 25 and 27 for context.
PFM18 wrote:This is a massive increase in power that reinforces the idea that Goku absorbed the God power.
I agree Goku's normal form underwent a massive increase in power and that he absorbed the God power. I just think he needed to keep his body and mind in an extreme condition in order to fully control it, which is backed up by the implications above. Haven't Goku not asked Whis to tutor him, the God power would probably became more and more dormant until he faced a real threat. For the record, despite them being arguably equal before, Vegeta needed 6 months of advantage to catch him up and Goku barely had any difficulty to handle his pace, so I think it's safe to say Goku got considerably stronger after fighting Beerus even if he was doing nothing. Buuuut... it's reinforced at least two times he needed one hell of a training to master SSG's power.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:21 pm

Strongest character Kakunsa can beat?
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:14 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:Strongest character Kakunsa can beat?
She was stronger than suppressed 17, but lost immediately when he got serious.

So:
U3: She beats Nigrisshi, Narirama and The Preecho. Loses against the others.
U4: Beats Shosa, Majora, Caway and Ganos. Against Monna she has no chance. She might be strongest than the rest, but could lose do to their unique abilities.
U6: Only beats Dr. Rota. The rest is really too much for her.
U7: Beats Krillin and Tenshinhan. I wouldn't be so sure about Roshi because of Mafuuba. Loses against the rest.
U9: Probably beats everyone bar the Trio de Danger.
U10: Beats everyone bar Obuni.
U11: Beats Vuon, Tupper and Zoiray for sure. It's a close one with Kahseral, Kettol and Cocotte. Loses against Kunshi, Dyspo and, of course, Toppo and Jiren.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:21 am

This might be a silly question, but I was wondering if there was any character in the entire DB franchise that would be capable of defeating Yugi Moto in a game of Duel Monsters? If they were allowed to build their own deck and suck. Zuno I think might have the best chance...
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:13 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:This might be a silly question, but I was wondering if there was any character in the entire DB franchise that would be capable of defeating Yugi Moto in a game of Duel Monsters? If they were allowed to build their own deck and suck. Zuno I think might have the best chance...
What about Trunks? He seems to be very good with puzzles and games in general. Not to mention they have the same voice actor in Brazil haha.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Pantalones » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:11 pm

This might be a silly question, but I was wondering if there was any character in the entire DB franchise that would be capable of defeating Yugi Moto in a game of Duel Monsters? If they were allowed to build their own deck and such. Zuno I think might have the best chance...
Huh... there's an odd one. I can't think of anyone offhand who's shown an interest in card games or anything similar, at least in the canon series... so I nominate the Dragonball Heroes cast. Unless you're going to send somebody up to Kami's lookout for a year-in-a-day of card game practice, I figure they'd be the only ones with anything resembling previous experience. XD

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:37 pm

New Battles:

SSJ2 Kid Gohan vs Broly (Second Coming)

Piccolo vs Present Zamasu (both can regenerate, killing not allowed)
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:06 pm

Not a versus but do you guys think Trunks got a permanent boost from his spirit bomb thingy in episode 66?

If So how strong do you think it would have made him?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sonofman » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:51 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:New Battles:

SSJ2 Kid Gohan vs Broly (Second Coming)

Piccolo vs Present Zamasu (both can regenerate, killing not allowed)
Kid Gohan? I think you meant youth Gohan. SS2 Youth Gohan is probably a bit more powerful than LSS Broly (since a regular SS Goku with the combine energy gained from Piccolo, Trunks, Gohan and Vegeta was enough to match/overpower LLS Broly at full-power). <-- this is to assume that LSS Broly was at his limit, while a SS2 Youth Gohan doesn't seem to have a limit, since he has an even deeper potential (ultimate/mystic/elder kai form).

Zamasu wins easily. He's almost as strong as a SS2 Goku post-majin buu arc (& Goku's SS2 form is a lot more powerful than it was back when he fought Majin Buu). Piccolo on the other hand cannot regenerate without losing a lot of stamina. His regeneration is inferior to Zamasu's, but it's still pretty cool. IMO
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:06 am

Kid Gohan ss2 vs Avenger Kid Jiren (the one with the hat looking for revenge)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:50 am

jeffbr92 wrote:Strongest character Kakunsa can beat?
Kahseral. 17 took Kakunsa a lot more seriously. Kahseral couldn't even make 17 serious, and 17 considered his attack to be stupid.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sonofman » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:17 am

The Avengers vs Jiren
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:09 pm

Koitsukai wrote:Kid Gohan ss2 vs Avenger Kid Jiren (the one with the hat looking for revenge)
It's hard to say, but supposedly since after losing to the evil-do'er, Jiren hasn't lost a battle until meeting goku. We don't know if Jiren is a prodigy or a super harder worker like a successful Vegeta or like gohan. I however and this is Headcanon, I feel by the time he fought that villain, Jiren was above ssj2. So I will give it to Jiren. But honestly I have no idea.

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