GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:More like Toriyama fucked up there, considering Goku has no reason to lie at all
Toriyama didn't "fuck up there" because that was utterly intended. Goku's reason to lie was to let Goten and Trunks have a shot against Buu, and the fact that the next generation should take care of things, as Goku is dead:
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That's not "Fucking up", because this was the purpose of Goku's lie.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Whenever he told that to Boo or not becomes irrelevant when he says Gotenks will definitely be strong enough to beat Boo, while Goku was at least close enough
What? Goku > Fat Buu, and he could have beated him:
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And Gotenks was states capable of beating Buu, despite Goku specifying 2 Days:
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Goku originally wanted 3 Days, but because he didn't want to delay the time of killings, he wanted it 2 Days to happen
as fast as possible so that Goten and Trunks will become powerful enough.
Goku originally gave the impression that he is no match for Buu, and that as a Ssj3 he just didn't try to beat him:
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So everyone thinks Goku is fodder to Fat Buu at 100% of his power, and there's no reason to lie. Goku's statement to Piccolo, despite it saying "Think", it is also stated he "thinks" so because he didn't try.
Most of the statements which Goku was hyping Hypothetical Gotenks with were before Goku seeing Goten and Trunks's Full powers. Goku is absolutely not impressed with Goten and Trunks and implies he expected more:
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Hence, he states later on this:
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Then Goku says that he told buu Gotenks is stronger than him? Non of this adds up and it contradicts the fact that he in fact never told him that, which means Goku is calming Piccolo down. Goku's Gamble is about Gotenks's power, because he already knows that Buu will not destroy earth.
Goku thought Gotenks could beat Buu before sensing their energy, despite having no time and no certainty when would Babidi destroy earth, or any of that sort, yet Goku later suggests they need training?
Goku didn't even think about leaving the job for Goten and Trunks, and wanted to fuse himself with either Gohan or Vegeta. He probably forgot, but anyways it still doesn't change the fact that he didn't consider it at first.
Piccolo saying that they need to Room of Spirit And Time is above Learning fusion, not train. Originally, Piccolo is saying that it will take time to learn the technique:
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Hence Piccolo asks him
Goku was pressured by the fact that they have no time, and still was even after Babidi admitted that they'll wait for 5 days:
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So Goku had 5 days, after sensing Goten and Trunks's power. But it was still a gamble, however its immoral to leave Buu killing people irrationally, thus he minimized the time needed. Before any time limit is mentioned, Goku implied that the kids might need it later, and this is them while Goku is saying that they don't have time, hence they might need
more time later on using the ROSAT:
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Goku's statement is General, so Goten and Trunks might need the ROSAT later for power usage any time.
Goku says that they might beat Buu in 30 minutes before sensing their Ki but later it's shown he overestimated them:
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”
All of Goku's statement contradict Goku's original thoughts. He mentions that they will beat Buu in no time at all, despite implying they need time? Obviously Goku is trying to ease Piccolo and the rest, and that was what the atmosphere depended on.
Piccolo was worried about the humans on earth, and that's why Goku said not to go and die as Gotenks will be enough to beat him:
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No statement about Gotenks has been mentioned without it being for a reason to establish, not literally.
Even in that same scan, Goku says that Babidi will destroy Earth either way so Piccolo should not care, and this also shows that Goku back then is uncertain of when will Babidi destroy earth, so he's just being hopeful, which is supported all the way
Another good point is this:
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
1) This confirms the atmosphere to be all worried of the circumstances which are yet to happen with many doubts.
2) Goku says "perfect" the technique. The only time Gotenks perfects the technique was in the ROSAT, and even then they haven't trained as much as Piccolo AND Goku wished for. Though he did get stronger than before than he can beat Fat Buu, nothing suggests he's above Goku
All these arguments show that Goku's Gamble is in fact true and that we shouldn't expect much from Gotenks as he's too early. Daizenshuu even has Gotenks Pre ROSAT below Vegeta which makes sense with the context
Piccolo wanted Gotenks to TRAIN despite knowing he can go Ssj:
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The Viz translation is not clear with Piccolo's statement, but it is similar to the original.
Look at the following:
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P7.5
Context: as Gotenks is about to fight Boo
Piccolo: “Pl-please…Let there be a miracle…”
This statement did occur when super buu was around, however Krillin doesn't know that this Buu has gotten astronomically stronger than Fat Buu, since he still was believing in the possibility that Gotenks could go against Him. He thought Gotenks could take him on like Goku was telling them, despite Goku referencing the fact that they need time to train. Piccolo states "even in just 1 hour", meaning he wanted more:
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Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train as much as possible for Fat Buu:
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This would mean Piccolo would have possibly placed Gotenks in the ROSAT either way, which supports Goku's statement.
This also renders your second argument invalid:
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GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:And you know who first brought up the gamble? Piccolo, while complaining about time:
Of course, Goku did give a suggestion to solve it, but the time is still tight. Goku took a whole weak to learn the fusion, and the boys only have two days.
When Goku said Rosat would be needed? Viz is indeed a bit vague on this, but the Japanese Anime (That ought to be as accurate, if not even better than Herms) has Goku saying they might need on the future, implying it's only for future threats:
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GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:You might as well try to justify me Gohan and Piccolo > Gotenks as the entry says Gotenks surpassed "Vegeta and the others". Let's not allow what's supposed to be only supportive information (The Guidebooks) override the main information (The original Manga)
The Original Manga says nothing of Gotenks being near Goku even except post ROSAT. Gotenks's Ki as a Ssj hasn't even crossed distances between Earth and the Kaioshin Realm unlike Fat Buu, Ssj3 Goku, Super Buu and Gohan. Never has it been shown that Gotenks Pre > Ssj3 Goku, except misinterpreted nitpicked lines. Piccolo is out of the formula, as Ssj Goten or Trunks alone > him, Gohan Post Z Sword is far stronger than before.
Never ONCE has it been stated or even shown that Gotenks > Vegeta. Nothing says that, and nothing implies that. Using Piccolo's confidence over Gotenks's power is not evidence of anything, because it just shows that he quite is powerful and it's possible to enhance his strength through
training. It mentions absolutely nothing about Piccolo referring to Gotenks now, and since it's vague, you can't use it at all here.
Gohan Post Z Sword training >>>> Gohan Pre Z Sword Training.
Gohan was training with The Z Sword as a Ssj2/Ssj just so that he would get used to it, but later he's shown capable of moving with it in base form:
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Fat Buu's Ssj3 Power is stated by Piccolo to be beyond what they can imagine, yet he still scales Gotenks's Power (except Post ROSAT):
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Fat Buu's power reached the Kaioshin Realm, Gotenks's didn't:
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Proving all my points right. Gotenks is inferior to Goku by a shit ton.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Goku went really quick from "I don't think i could do it" to "It's not my duty anymore", Piccolo highly suspected something was going on. Piccolo can sense Ki just well (Well, except when it's convinient for the plot), he should be able to tell Goku is stronger than Boo.
That doesn't mean anything. Piccolo asked him because as I showed above, Ssj3 Goku is out of his imagination and can't properly scale it, so he had to ask Goku.
Piccolo pressed it on Goku because Goku said he "thinks" and didn't "try" despite it being a desperate case like this:
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GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:It's also possible Piccolo assumed Boo was holding back (His Ki is "Like a lie" after all) but i find this one more doubtful.
Fat Buu could have been holding back based on Kaioshin, but This is besides the issue.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:It is not speculation. Not only no Super Saiyan showed the ability to suppress until the Cell Games, but Vegeta also shows surprise toward Goku and Gohan being able to suppress their power to such an "Ordinary" level:
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
And Goku stated he just achieved the form after transforming:
Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P7.5
Goku: “Sorry that took so long. I’m still not used to this transformation.”
The "ordinary" level is not "holding back", but it is mastered Super Saiyan, in which they're living normally as Super Saiyans. Your point absolutely contradicts what Vegeta was hinting at, since it wasn't about holding back power at all.
And What? No one has suppressed their energy before as Super Saiyan?
Trunks held back against Goku:
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Goku's Super Saiyan > 100% Final Form Frieza yet he was pushed and pained by Frieza by weaker levels, then Goku powers up and heard Frieza, and that happens before Frieza's power starts to decline due to Goku:
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Piccolo, before sensing Goku increase his power as Ssj3, mentions that he can't beat Fat Buu (although as I showed, he starts to doubt it). Meaning Goku held back, and since Piccolo doubted it, it also means that Goku against kid buu was far above himself when he fought Fat Buu:
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So it's still builds up an assumption.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Actually, he never implied he was weaker than Boo. When Piccolo asked him, Goku said he didn't know and when Piccolo questioned, Goku said it wasn't his duty anymore. Goku tries to avoid answering the question because he doesn't wanna lie to Piccolo.
Goku saying he could've killed Boo doesn't mean he's leaps and bounds above him, he says the same about Pure Boo even though they were dead even. Goku saying he could win is more like about how he could create a blast big enough to obliterate Boo, like he wanted to do on Pure Boo.
Obviously no. Goku clearly said he couldn't win at all:
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So what you're saying is brought down completeley.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:You're the one misinterpreted the quotes here. I'm taking the quotes at value, you are distorting them to say they are meaningless even though you have no evidence to backyourself up aside from a vague and inaccurate Daizenshuu entry.
This post here shows that I'm not actually. You're just taking misinterpreted lines and nitpicking, while forgetting the entirety of the context. I'm not distorting them at all, these statements are just taken out of context by people. Daizenshuu entry is a bit vague on the matter but it also is never contradicted. You're just trying to nitpick through its definition because it doesn't suit your arguments
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:I think it's better we agree to disagree on the movie issue. The power scaling is rather confusing.
Ok