The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:04 pm

Android Saga Piccolo vs Namek Saga Frieza

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:08 pm

Bullza wrote:Android Saga Piccolo vs Namek Saga Frieza
Piccolo uber stomps. He wouldn't think he grew too strong for the Androids if he was still below Trunks, who one shoted Freeza.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:42 pm

Bullza wrote:Android Saga Piccolo vs Namek Saga Frieza
Piccolo should be above Future Trunks and Yardrat Goku for him to have confidence against the androids battle. And he manhandled Dr Gero easily. He should win here.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:16 am

Bullza wrote:Android Saga Piccolo vs Namek Saga Frieza
Frieza wins. He only surpassed Frieza after fusing with Kami. Beforehand I think he was final form Frieza tier, but not 100%.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Piccolo uber stomps. He wouldn't think he grew too strong for the Androids if he was still below Trunks, who one shoted Freeza.
Piccolo said he wasn't sure if they got to strong or if the androids ended up being much weaker. And Trunks one shorted a suppressed cocky Frieza with a weapon. That is hardly fair.
dragonball0900 wrote: Piccolo should be above Future Trunks and Yardrat Goku for him to have confidence against the androids battle. And he manhandled Dr Gero easily. He should win here.
It was never stated Piccolo was confident in soloing the androids, he was just confident he could help, which he could.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:29 am

dragon boss z wrote: Piccolo said he wasn't sure if they got to strong or if the androids ended up being much weaker. And Trunks one shorted a suppressed cocky Frieza with a weapon. That is hardly fair.
The fact he even wondered speaks a lot. If Piccolo was still beneath Freeza, he would have no doubts: The Androids are weaker than he expected.
It's also heavily implied the outcome would be the same if Freeza was at full power, considering Trunks tells both Freeza and Cold to attack him at the same time and Freeza's death is used as a benchmark of Trunks' power and as a device to hype the Androids.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 pm

Anime: SSJ3 Goku Black vs SSJG Goku

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:05 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: The fact he even wondered speaks a lot. If Piccolo was still beneath Freeza, he would have no doubts: The Androids are weaker than he expected.
He was wondering because Trunks told him they would be really strong, but Piccolo seemed unsure. Also Trunks said that in a 1v1 he could handle himself against them. And Piccolo heard him say that, so if they were weaker than Piccolo thought they would be weaker than Future Trunks as well.
It's also heavily implied the outcome would be the same if Freeza was at full power, considering Trunks tells both Freeza and Cold to attack him at the same time and Freeza's death is used as a benchmark of Trunks' power and as a device to hype the Androids.
Yes, the outcome would of been the same, but if it was a 100% full power serious Frieza vs Trunks with no sword it probably would of been more like the Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek. Trunks would have the clear advantage until Frieza got tired out and killed. Still would of been one sided, but not a stomp.

I don't think it's impossible for Piccolo to be above Frieza, but he didn't do enough to prove he is to me. It was stated he was strong for not being a ssj, but so was Frieza. And he didn't seem to be on the same level as ssj Trunks or Vegeta.
This is one of those matches where imo that there isn't enough info to say for sure, but I go with the character with better feats at that point and also I don't see Piccolo closing the gap in power and surpassing Frieza that quickly. Especially if base Goku, who was stronger than Piccolo in the Namek arc, didn't even surpass Frieza by the time Beerus showed up.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:46 pm

dragon boss z wrote: He was wondering because Trunks told him they would be really strong, but Piccolo seemed unsure. Also Trunks said that in a 1v1 he could handle himself against them. And Piccolo heard him say that, so if they were weaker than Piccolo thought they would be weaker than Future Trunks as well.
Piccolo was unsufe because for what he knew before fhe fight the Androids could be stronger than him and Goku. That's the reason he mentions he has a bad feeling and Goku isn't 100% sure about their chances.

By the way, Trunks was only able to stand up to the Androids after he returned from the future. Beforehand he said he was barely able to survive 1x1:
Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.4
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Yes, the outcome would of been the same, but if it was a 100% full power serious Frieza vs Trunks with no sword it probably would of been more like the Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek. Trunks would have the clear advantage until Frieza got tired out and killed. Still would of been one sided, but not a stomp.
I don't think so. Trunks told both Freeza and Cold to attack him. You think the fight would look like Goku vs Freeza, right? Just imagine if Cold was there to help Freeza on their beam struggle, for example. Freeza would have won, right? The same would apply to Trunks...
Goku wasn't even surprised by the fact Trunks wasn't even scretched when he arrived from Yardrat. and everybody is in awe when the boy who killed Freeza was defeated by the Androids. Why bring off such a feat if it was only a matter of luck? It's like one bringing Piccolo kicking Freeza over the ocean back on Namek as a feat. Trunks did kill a suppressed Freeza with a weapon, but he had the potential to trash Freeza if he was powered up. I think a hand to hand Freeza vs Trunks would look like Vegeta vs #19/2nd form Cell.

I don't think it's impossible for Piccolo to be above Frieza, but he didn't do enough to prove he is to me. It was stated he was strong for not being a ssj, but so was Frieza. And he didn't seem to be on the same level as ssj Trunks or Vegeta.
This is one of those matches where imo that there isn't enough info to say for sure, but I go with the character with better feats at that point and also I don't see Piccolo closing the gap in power and surpassing Frieza that quickly. Especially if base Goku, who was stronger than Piccolo in the Namek arc, didn't even surpass Frieza by the time Beerus showed up.
I can see where you are coming from here. But Kuririn's statement can be interpreted in two ways:
1) Refering to the Super Saiyan as a tier: Although Piccolo's strong, he is not on the level of a Super Saiyan.
2) Refering to Super Saiyan as a form: Although Piccolo can't transform, he is powerful like a Super Saiyan.
I learn toward the second option. Piccolo being powerful compared to the original Super Saiyans doesn't place him on equal terms with the current Super Saiyans, after all.

Also, plot dictates power. By this logic, Piccolo should have never surpassed Freeza as he was weaker than Goku prior to the 3 years and had lower conditions of training than Goku, training alone on the Rosat, semi-retiring after the Cell Games, etc.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Piccolo was unsufe because for what he knew before fhe fight the Androids could be stronger than him and Goku. That's the reason he mentions he has a bad feeling and Goku isn't 100% sure about their chances.

By the way, Trunks was only able to stand up to the Androids after he returned from the future. Beforehand he said he was barely able to survive 1x1:
Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.4
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”
Ya but the fact he could escape means he could at least push them back a bit. Also I don't think he got much stronger if at all really since when he came back after the 3 year gap, as it wasn't 3 years for him. I can't remember if an exact time was given but it had to be less than a year for Trunks as he was still 17 and nobody stated he was noticeably stronger as far as I remember.
I don't think so. Trunks told both Freeza and Cold to attack him. You think the fight would look like Goku vs Freeza, right? Just imagine if Cold was there to help Freeza on their beam struggle, for example. Freeza would have won, right? The same would apply to Trunks...
True. Maybe more like after Frieza lost some power, like around when Goku had the clear advantage, but still couldn't one shot.
Goku wasn't even surprised by the fact Trunks wasn't even scretched when he arrived from Yardrat. and everybody is in awe when the boy who killed Freeza was defeated by the Androids. Why bring off such a feat if it was only a matter of luck? It's like one bringing Piccolo kicking Freeza over the ocean back on Namek as a feat.
I'm not denying Trunks could defeat Frieza and Cold. I just don't think he could one shot full power Frieza. Also Cold's power was supposedly on par with suppressed Frieza according to Gohan, so unless Cold could power up or transform he would be pretty useless tbh. Best he could do is shot pot shots from behind.
Trunks did kill a suppressed Freeza with a weapon, but he had the potential to trash Freeza if he was powered up. I think a hand to hand Freeza vs Trunks would look like Vegeta vs #19/2nd form Cell.
Ya I pretty much agree with this. Another fight I would compare it to is Vegeta vs Zarbon round 2. Vegeta won pretty quickly, but Zarbo was able to land a few hits.

I can see where you are coming from here. But Kuririn's statement can be interpreted in two ways:
1) Refering to the Super Saiyan as a tier: Although Piccolo's strong, he is not on the level of a Super Saiyan.
2) Refering to Super Saiyan as a form: Although Piccolo can't transform, he is powerful like a Super Saiyan.
I learn toward the second option. Piccolo being powerful compared to the original Super Saiyans doesn't place him on equal terms with the current Super Saiyans, after all.

Also, plot dictates power. By this logic, Piccolo should have never surpassed Freeza as he was weaker than Goku prior to the 3 years and had lower conditions of training than Goku, training alone on the Rosat, semi-retiring after the Cell Games, etc.
Yes I agree plot dictates power, that's for sure. Though the best Piccolo actually did was defeat Gero, who I don't think was as strong as Frieza. Piccolo was even held down by Gero and needed help breaking free.

I'm not sure if you would consider this evidence or not but I think this line could point to Frieza being stronger than Gero as when Goku gets better from the heart virus Krillin asks him if he is scared or excited that a bunch of people stronger than Frieza showed up, and this is after Goku already faced Gero and 19 so you would think Krillin would reference them if they were stronger than Frieza. Though you could argue he included them in the group "stronger than Frieza" but I don't think so since they were already defeated and Goku faced them already so I don't think they would apply as people Goku should be scared or excited for.

though it's still possible that it could go Gero/19<Frieza<Piccolo, but imo it goes Gero/19<Piccolo<Frieza. The only version I really don't agree with is Frieza<Gero/19<Piccolo because that would mean Piccolo is so much stronger than Frieza he could cut his arm off with his bear hands, which I don't see happening. It would even mean he could probably do it to ssj namek Goku which I don't see as well.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:27 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Ya but the fact he could escape means he could at least push them back a bit. Also I don't think he got much stronger if at all really since when he came back after the 3 year gap, as it wasn't 3 years for him. I can't remember if an exact time was given but it had to be less than a year for Trunks as he was still 17 and nobody stated he was noticeably stronger as far as I remember.
Trunks was pretty much the twins' ragdoll, so it's obvious they would let him live. #18 even complained about Trunks geting boring and #17 said they would lose their toy if he dies on the chapter Trunks kills them.
It's not directly stated, but it's heavily implied Trunks improved by a lot. He went from below Yardrat Goku to grouped with Android Arc Vegeta, after all. Personally i don't see a trouble with this, considering in three years training alone he went from below Base Gohan to slightly above SSJ Gohan before he died.
True. Maybe more like after Frieza lost some power, like around when Goku had the clear advantage, but still couldn't one shot.
I'm not denying Trunks could defeat Frieza and Cold. I just don't think he could one shot full power Frieza. Also Cold's power was supposedly on par with suppressed Frieza according to Gohan, so unless Cold could power up or transform he would be pretty useless tbh. Best he could do is shot pot shots from behind.
Ya I pretty much agree with this. Another fight I would compare it to is Vegeta vs Zarbon round 2. Vegeta won pretty quickly, but Zarbo was able to land a few hits.
Yeah, then agree to disagree here, i guess. If you think Trunks could defeat Freeza and Cold, it's all okay.
By the way, Cold would be pretty useful on the fight. He could shot Goku/Trunks from the behind and distract him to give Freeza an opening, pretty much on a Jeice way:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Yes I agree plot dictates power, that's for sure. Though the best Piccolo actually did was defeat Gero, who I don't think was as strong as Frieza. Piccolo was even held down by Gero and needed help breaking free.
Gero was pretty strong, though. #19 was able to make Vegeta's lip bleed, a feat i heavily doubt Freeza could perform. However, even after having a lot of his energy drained, Vegeta was still strong enough to rip off 19's arms and blow his head off, but admited he wouldn't be able to beat #20. Vegeta also comented on how 20 was faster than he thought after he absorbed his blast, implying 20 was faster than 19, thus stronger.
I'm not sure if you would consider this evidence or not but I think this line could point to Frieza being stronger than Gero as when Goku gets better from the heart virus Krillin asks him if he is scared or excited that a bunch of people stronger than Frieza showed up, and this is after Goku already faced Gero and 19 so you would think Krillin would reference them if they were stronger than Frieza. Though you could argue he included them in the group "stronger than Frieza" but I don't think so since they were already defeated and Goku faced them already so I don't think they would apply as people Goku should be scared or excited for.

though it's still possible that it could go Gero/19<Frieza<Piccolo, but imo it goes Gero/19<Piccolo<Frieza. The only version I really don't agree with is Frieza<Gero/19<Piccolo because that would mean Piccolo is so much stronger than Frieza he could cut his arm off with his bear hands, which I don't see happening. It would even mean he could probably do it to ssj namek Goku which I don't see as well.
This statement?:
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”


Yeah, terrible is generally used power-wise on Dragon Ball, but here i think he's talking about Cell's fearsomeness in general. I mean, Goku fought Freeza on a planet about to explode and was pushed further his limits. 19 got bent over by a weakened Goku. Freeza's plans involved universal domination, 19 and 20 wanted personal revenge on one person. Cell's intentions of killing everyone on earth and wreck havoc trought the galaxy are way more comparable to Freeza's plans to the androids'.

The statement doesn't make sense if Kuririn is talking about power anyway. Kuririn would be asking if Goku is ready to take on a foe stronger than Freeza, which the answer would obviously be yes. Goku has just trained three years to fight foes stronger than Freeza, after all.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:10 pm

Bullza wrote:Android Saga Piccolo vs Namek Saga Frieza
Freeza definitely wins. Piccolo was very strong for not being a super saiyan level being, but that's it.

Goku was scared at the thought of facing opponents stronger than even freeza.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:02 pm

apex_pretador wrote:Goku was scared at the thought of facing opponents stronger than even freeza.
When?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:50 pm

New match: (What-if Vegeta the first time he came on Earth, had trained with masters that taught him the same things Roshi, Korin, Popo, Kami and Kaio taught Goku?)

- Goku vs. Vegeta (equal power, unlimited stamina)
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:06 pm

Noah wrote:New match: (What-if Vegeta the first time he came on Earth, had trained with masters that taught him the same things Roshi, Korin, Popo, Kami and Kaio taught Goku?)

- Goku vs. Vegeta (equal power, unlimited stamina)
So it's pretty much Goku vs Vegeta with equal powers, stamina, skills and mindset? It's gonna be a tie man. It would be pretty much two clones fighting each other.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:10 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:So it's pretty much Goku vs Vegeta with equal powers, stamina, skills and mindset? It's gonna be a tie man. It would be pretty much two clones fighting each other.
Apart from having the same masters that taught the same stuff, I don't think they will also have the same mindset, Vegeta is more headstrong and Goku is carefree that could be used in in favor of one and against another.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:03 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Trunks was pretty much the twins' ragdoll, so it's obvious they would let him live. #18 even complained about Trunks geting boring and #17 said they would lose their toy if he dies on the chapter Trunks kills them.
It's not directly stated, but it's heavily implied Trunks improved by a lot. He went from below Yardrat Goku to grouped with Android Arc Vegeta, after all. Personally i don't see a trouble with this, considering in three years training alone he went from below Base Gohan to slightly above SSJ Gohan before he died.
In the history of Trunks Gohan almost seemed above the androids in a 1v1 in the last fight and Trunks seemed to give them a bit of trouble as well though.

[quote
Yeah, then agree to disagree here, i guess. If you think Trunks could defeat Freeza and Cold, it's all okay.
By the way, Cold would be pretty useful on the fight. He could shot Goku/Trunks from the behind and distract him to give Freeza an opening, pretty much on a Jeice way:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[/quote]

Ya I agree Trunks would beat both of them and that Cold would be kind of like Jeice in the fight.
Gero was pretty strong, though. #19 was able to make Vegeta's lip bleed, a feat i heavily doubt Freeza could perform. However, even after having a lot of his energy drained, Vegeta was still strong enough to rip off 19's arms and blow his head off, but admited he wouldn't be able to beat #20. Vegeta also comented on how 20 was faster than he thought after he absorbed his blast, implying 20 was faster than 19, thus stronger.
Ya they were strong, but still heavily below ssj and Piccolo level. The real danger was their energy absorption.
The statement doesn't make sense if Kuririn is talking about power anyway. Kuririn would be asking if Goku is ready to take on a foe stronger than Freeza, which the answer would obviously be yes. Goku has just trained three years to fight foes stronger than Freeza, after all.
Why not? I think it was heavily implied to be about strength as why else would Goku say he is excited?
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:Goku was scared at the thought of facing opponents stronger than even freeza.
When?
He's talking about the line we were discussing.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Bullza wrote:Android Saga Piccolo vs Namek Saga Frieza
Piccolo stomps. He was far above Freeza by that point.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:01 am

Android 13 vs. Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town)

Bojack vs. Hatchiyack

Basil (Drugged) vs. Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan

Lavenda vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Current Base Goku vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Buu Saga)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:33 am

SuperDragoon wrote:Android 13 vs. Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town)

Bojack vs. Hatchiyack

Basil (Drugged) vs. Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan

Lavenda vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Current Base Goku vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Buu Saga)
-Imperfect Cell wins, he's above the pre-training Super Saiyans.

-Probably Hatchiyack. He would have performed better against SSJ2 Gohan.

-Gohan gets stomped, even the weakened Gohan in Super is far superior to his 10 year old self.

-Goku gets owned for the aforementioned reason.

-Base Goku stomps effortlessly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:50 am

Then what about Frieza vs. Android 20?

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