The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

- SsjR Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs Aniraza

Aniraza casually stomps

- Ssj2 Caulifla, Ssj2 Cabba and Ssj Berserker Kale (uncontrolled) vs Ssj Baby Gohan, Ssj Baby Goten and Ssj Baby Trunks (all from the Baby Vegeta saga)

Caulifla alone, Kale alone, or Cabba alone are enough to stomp GT

- Semi-Perfect Cell vs Biarra

This is overkill, Biarra roflstomps. Almost All DBS Tiers far exceeds anything in DBZ

- 17 (TOP) vs Ssj Rage Trunks (vs Merged Zamasu, no Genkisword)

Even with Genkisword, he loses to Android 17. 17 wins low-diff

- Hakaishin Toppo vs SsjB Vegetto

Toppo stomps with utter ease. People for some reason assume No one has gotten stronger in the ToP in comparison to Future Trunks arc, although if both arcs where to be compared and carefully checked the context in each, ToP Tiers easily exceed the future trunks arc

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

1. Piccolo (Post King Kai, Pre Nail Fusion) vs Recoome, Burter and Jeice

Piccolo wins against them. It's implied Piccolo could he at Ginyu's range

2. SSJ Gotenks (post ROSAT) vs SSJ3 Goku (Full Power)

Ssj3 Goku Wins.

3. SSJ Gogeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks

Ssj Gogeta stomps in the Buu Saga. It becomes overkill if it's Gogeta from Fusion Reborn

4. Copy Vegeta vs SSJ Vegito (Buu arc)

Copy Vegeta In base form deletes the Buu Saga accidentally

5. Base Goku Black vs Final Form Frieza (ROF arc)

Base Goku Black solos the RoF arc.

6. SSJ Future Trunks (Black arc, anime) vs Zamasu

Pre Training Trunks vs Present Zamasu: Zamasu wins low-difficulty

Pre Training Trunks vs Future Zamasu: Zamasu roflstomps

Post Training Trunks vs Present Zamasu: Trunks roflstomps

Post Training Trunks vs Future Zamasu: Trunks wins mid-high difficulty

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ssj3 Goku Wins.

Why?

Ssj Gogeta stomps in the Buu Saga. It becomes overkill if it's Gogeta from Fusion Reborn

Boo Arc Gogeta = M12 Gogeta though. Vegeta hasn't improved at all between Boo Arc and Movie 12, so Goku has to suppress all the way to Vegeta's level.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Why?

Nothing suggests Gotenks is stronger except a statement from Goku which is misinterpreted by many people. Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT is just around Ssj3 Goku when he fought Fat Buu. Ssj3 Gotenks > Ssj3 Goku While fighting Fat Buu and that's about it. Goku was never going full power, and all of Piccolo's agreements of Gotenks's power meeting Goku's expectations are all under the assumption that Goku is weaker than Fat Buu which is in fact wrong.

Boo Arc Gogeta = M12 Gogeta though. Vegeta hasn't improved at all between Boo Arc and Movie 12, so Goku has to suppress all the way to Vegeta's level.

Not really. You're scaling Movie 12 exactly the same way as you're doing in the Buu Saga, although movies scale eiffereently than in the main continuity

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Boo Arc Gogeta = M12 Gogeta though. Vegeta hasn't improved at all between Boo Arc and Movie 12, so Goku has to suppress all the way to Vegeta's level.

Also, Dragon Books imply that Vegeta got stronger when he died and went back to Earth. Either way, Fusion Reborn is not part of the main continuity, and shouldn't be scaled similarly.

Timeline-Wise, Fusion Reborn takes place after Ssj Gotenks made an appearance for the first time, so there's no "between"

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nothing suggests Gotenks is stronger except a statement from Goku which is misinterpreted by many people. Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT is just around Ssj3 Goku when he fought Fat Buu. Ssj3 Gotenks > Ssj3 Goku While fighting Fat Buu and that's about it. Goku was never going full power, and all of Piccolo's agreements of Gotenks's power meeting Goku's expectations are all under the assumption that Goku is weaker than Fat Buu which is in fact wrong.

It actually was stated three times by Goku:

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

How could Goku not go full power when he barely has control over the form? It took him years of training to be able to suppress Super Saiyan properly, so for him to supperss a much more strainful form that he just achieved is impossible. Goku was only holding back his efforts and not actively trying to kill Boo. Almost like they were sparring.

Goku is never implied to be weaker than Boo, either. He said he couldn't win, what is quite possible when your opponent is almost as strong as you, has infinitely better stamina and learns techniques pretty quickly

Not really. You're scaling Movie 12 exactly the same way as you're doing in the Buu Saga, although movies scale eiffereently than in the main continuity

How strong is Movie 12 Vegeta then? It's implied Boo did exist in this universe (Vegeta is dead, Goku says Boo was the first foe who forced him to use SSJ3, Gotenks exists, etc), so automatically things should play out more or less the same for more or less half of the arc.

Also, Dragon Books imply that Vegeta got stronger when he died and went back to Earth. Either way, Fusion Reborn is not part of the main continuity, and shouldn't be scaled similarly.

When he went back to earth. Movie 12 Vegeta never returned to Earth.

The movies are what if scenarios, so until a certain divergent point they likely played out the same as the Anime, thus the power scaling is still vaguely similar (Except on implied cases like Movie 3).

Timeline-Wise, Fusion Reborn takes place after Ssj Gotenks made an appearance for the first time, so there's no "between"

Sorry, i poorly worded myself there. With "Boo Arc" i had in mind the period of time when Vegeta fought Boo.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

It actually was stated three times by Goku:

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

You're absolutely messing my point. Goku never said that Gotenks is stronger than him except to Piccolo, even though he NEVER told Buu:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Later Goku calls it a gamble that Gotenks is left to fight Buu. Everyone was worried, and Goku was calming everybody down. In fact, Goku even states that they might need the RoSAT later on, which was true. Piccolo sensed Base Gotenks and still concluded that they should train for an entire day as much as possible. Gotenks's power was also never portrayed as great as Goku's, and Daizenshuu implies Gotenks was weaker than even Vegeta

How could Goku not go full power when he barely has control over the form? It took him years of training to be able to suppress Super Saiyan properly, so for him to supperss a much more strainful form that he just achieved is impossible. Goku was only holding back his efforts and not actively trying to kill Boo. Almost like they were sparring.

No not really. Based on the power Piccolo sensed from Goku, he wondered whether Goku could beat Fat Buu, and Goku answers him that he would have lost. Goku then tells Piccolo that he didn't even try to beat him, but Piccolo rolled with the possibility that Goku is weaker, hence he wanted Gotenks to train more despite Goku claiming Gotenks will be stronger than him. Then we are given a concession from Goku that he could beat Buu.

Your argument is just speculation here. "Impossible" because of a reason that was never mentioned or implied isn't a reasoning.

Goku is never implied to be weaker than Boo, either. He said he couldn't win, what is quite possible when your opponent is almost as strong as you, has infinitely better stamina and learns techniques pretty quickly

Except he admits that he could have killed Buu before, which means he really was giving the impression that he's weaker than Buu:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So what you posted me doesn't prove much. The atmosphere was under pressure of the fact that Buu's power is unbeatable. So he had to calm down everybody, which is proven by him stating it's a gamble to leave things for Gotenks after sensing their powers, and that's under the possibility that Gotenks could enter the RoSAT. The only time Piccolo admits that Gotenks > Goku indirectly was when Gotenks was beating up Super Buu:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Never has it been implied before, other than using misinterpreted lines

How strong is Movie 12 Vegeta then? It's implied Boo did exist in this universe (Vegeta is dead, Goku says Boo was the first foe who forced him to use SSJ3, Gotenks exists, etc), so automatically things should play out more or less the same for more or less half of the arc

Did exist =/= Same thing. Movie 12 follows the movies directly in a single timeline, and each one takes place not in the same timeline stated by Akira Toriyama, and the plot inconsistencies can be used to approve of this. Another point is that feats and scaling in each movie is far different than anything the main continuity has shown, each with their major differences.

Ssj2 Vegeta is able to survive attacks from Janemba and react to some of his attacks, which were able to combat a Ssj3 Goku who's far above his main continuity counterpart.

When he went back to earth. Movie 12 Vegeta never returned to Earth.

I never did say he did get stronger in Movie 12 than he already was

The movies are what if scenarios, so until a certain divergent point they likely played out the same as the Anime, thus the power scaling is still vaguely similar (Except on implied cases like Movie 3).

Not just movie 3, but every movie. Movie 8 for example has feats which far surpass anything the Cell Saga has ever shown. Movie 9 Bojack as well did so. Movie 10 Also revealed this same case, where Gohan in base form is stronger than his Ssj counterpart in movie 8. Base Gohan in Movie 12 is stronger than Bojack, because he oneshotted Frieza who was ruling Bojack and commanding him, and fleed when Gohan beat Frieza With every other fighter. Paragus appeared there, which means Broly existed as well.

So no, not just Movie 3. Movies have a completely different scaling.

[dragon boss z]

1. Piccolo (Post King Kai, Pre Nail Fusion) vs Recoome, Burter and Jeice

2. SSJ Gotenks (post ROSAT) vs SSJ3 Goku (Full Power)

4. SSJ Gogeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks

5. Copy Vegeta vs SSJ Vegito (Buu arc)

6. Base Goku Black vs Final Form Frieza (ROF arc)

7. SSJ Future Trunks (Black arc, anime) vs Zamasu

1. Any of the Ginyu force could arguably solo. Two is enough to take it almost 10/10.
2. Goku
What happened to 3? lol
4. Gogeta
5. I don't know, but I'll go with Vegito if Copy Vegeta isn't allowed to transform.
6. Black
7. Ssj might lose, ssj2 wins for sure as it was stated he was stronger.

- SsjR Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs Aniraza

- Ssj2 Caulifla, Ssj2 Cabba and Ssj Berserker Kale (uncontrolled) vs Ssj Baby Gohan, Ssj Baby Goten and Ssj Baby Trunks (all from the Baby Vegeta saga)

- Semi-Perfect Cell vs Biarra

- 17 (TOP) vs Ssj Rage Trunks (vs Merged Zamasu, no Genkisword)

- Hakaishin Toppo vs SsjB Vegetto

-Anilaza is stronger, but future Zamasu is immortal and they are much smarter than Anilaza. If they target his weak point they could win.
-I don't know
-Semi-Perfect Cell just because he has feats.
-Probably 17. Even if he is weaker he could probably outlast Trunks.
-If Vegeta can overpower Toppo, Vegito definitely can.

Why?

Nothing suggests Gotenks is stronger except a statement from Goku which is misinterpreted by many people. Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT is just around Ssj3 Goku when he fought Fat Buu. Ssj3 Gotenks > Ssj3 Goku While fighting Fat Buu and that's about it. Goku was never going full power, and all of Piccolo's agreements of Gotenks's power meeting Goku's expectations are all under the assumption that Goku is weaker than Fat Buu which is in fact wrong.

I agree

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

5. I don't know, but I'll go with Vegito if Copy Vegeta isn't allowed to transform.

I know that you're uncertain of your choosing, but why did you end up concluding that? Base Goku > All of Z

If Vegeta can overpower Toppo, Vegito definitely can.

Tournament of Power SsjB Vegeta current > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 116 > SsjB Vegito. So not really.

[dragon boss z]

I know that you're uncertain of your choosing, but why did you end up concluding that? Base Goku > All of Z

Where are you getting that? All we know is he can stomp a probably rusty ssj3 Gotenks. Base Vegito could do that as well. Add on the ssj multiplier and Vegito could very well be stronger. Imo ssj Vegito is right under SSG.

[/quote]
Tournament of Power SsjB Vegeta current > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 116 > SsjB Vegito. So not really.[/quote]

Ep 116 UI Goku is not above SSB Vegito. Goku could barely beat ssj2 Kefla who would get stomped by SSB Vegito. SSB Vegito was also stated to be around as strong as Beerus.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Where are you getting that? All we know is he can stomp a probably rusty ssj3 Gotenks. Base Vegito could do that as well. Add on the ssj multiplier and Vegito could very well be stronger. Imo ssj Vegito is right under SSG.

Ssj Vegito being right under SsjG is completely contradicted since it's been shown to be >>> Vegito.

Base copy Vegeta >>>>> SsjG BoG Goku

[Ep 116 UI Goku is not above SSB Vegito. Goku could barely beat ssj2 Kefla who would get stomped by SSB Vegito. SSB Vegito was also stated to be around as strong as Beerus.

Kefla casually stomps SsjB Vegito. SsjB Vegeta > Suppressed Jiren's energy from Episode 122 > Anything Energy he ever encountered

Ultra Instinct Goku > Beerus.

I don't even know how you're getting the Kefla < Vegito. I remember seeing you saying that Ssj Vegito > Kefla which is absolutely illogical. Argue on it

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Also, Beerus > SsjB Vegito Anime-Wise

[AvatarReiko]

Super 17 vs Super Jenemba

[dragon boss z]

Ssj Vegito being right under SsjG is completely contradicted since it's been shown to be >>> Vegito.

No it wasn't.

Base copy Vegeta >>>>> SsjG BoG Goku

Proof? Imo he isn't nearly as strong as SSG Goku.

Kefla casually stomps SsjB Vegito. SsjB Vegeta > Suppressed Jiren's energy from Episode 122 > Anything Energy he ever encountered

Suppressed Jiren would completely stomp Kefla, so I don't see your point.

Ultra Instinct Goku > Beerus.

No, not even close. Ultra instinct Goku wasn't even strong, he was just good at dodging, and Whis even said Beerus knows ultra instinct as well. He just hasn't mastered it yet. Maybe mastered UI Goku will be above Beerus, but not the UI Goku was saw already.

I don't even know how you're getting the Kefla < Vegito.

Because Goku and Vegeta are >>> Kale and Caulifla? 2 + 2 is bigger than 1 + 1, it's pretty cut and dry.

I remember seeing you saying that Ssj Vegito > Kefla which is absolutely illogical. Argue on it

Base Vegito was stronger than SSB in the manga. Base Kefla is weaker than SSB. And I said ssj Vegito is stronger than ssj Kefla, not ssj2 Kefla. Imo base Kefla<base Vegito<ssj Kefla<ssj Vegito<ssj2 Kefla<SSB Vegito

Kefla gets high balled way too much. Champa pretty much flat out said ssj Kefla couldn't beat Goku if he wasn't tired. Only ssj2 Kefla is above fully recovered kkx20 SSB Goku.

[Zamasu55]

- SsjR Goku Black and Future Zamasu vs Aniraza

Aniraza casually stomps

- Ssj2 Caulifla, Ssj2 Cabba and Ssj Berserker Kale (uncontrolled) vs Ssj Baby Gohan, Ssj Baby Goten and Ssj Baby Trunks (all from the Baby Vegeta saga)

Caulifla alone, Kale alone, or Cabba alone are enough to stomp GT

- Semi-Perfect Cell vs Biarra

This is overkill, Biarra roflstomps. Almost All DBS Tiers far exceeds anything in DBZ

- 17 (TOP) vs Ssj Rage Trunks (vs Merged Zamasu, no Genkisword)

Even with Genkisword, he loses to Android 17. 17 wins low-diff

- Hakaishin Toppo vs SsjB Vegetto

Toppo stomps with utter ease. People for some reason assume No one has gotten stronger in the ToP in comparison to Future Trunks arc, although if both arcs where to be compared and carefully checked the context in each, ToP Tiers easily exceed the future trunks arc

- Aniraza might be able to beat Goku Black, but he can't do anything to Zamasu.

- What feats has Biarra ever shown? He's just durable, that's it.

- Genkisword Trunks is stronger than 17.

[saunasolmu]

Strongest Dragon Ball character that Surtur (Marvel) could defeat?

[Kataphrut]

Super 17 vs Super Jenemba

Super 17's got it. He roughly Super Saiyan 4 level, which I believe is equal to Buu saga Vegetto, who is in turn stronger than Gogeta.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You're absolutely messing my point. Goku never said that Gotenks is stronger than him except to Piccolo, even though he NEVER told Buu:

Spoiler:View


Later Goku calls it a gamble that Gotenks is left to fight Buu. Everyone was worried, and Goku was calming everybody down. In fact, Goku even states that they might need the RoSAT later on, which was true. Piccolo sensed Base Gotenks and still concluded that they should train for an entire day as much as possible. Gotenks's power was also never portrayed as great as Goku's, and Daizenshuu implies Gotenks was weaker than even Vegeta

You know, you could use scans from Viz or the quotes from Herms here. I don't think everyone here speaks Japanese.

More like Toriyama fucked up there, considering Goku has no reason to lie at all. Whenever he told that to Boo or not becomes irrelevant when he says Gotenks will definitely be strong enough to beat Boo, while Goku was at least close enough

And you know who first brought up the gamble? Piccolo, while complaining about time:


Of course, Goku did give a suggestion to solve it, but the time is still tight. Goku took a whole weak to learn the fusion, and the boys only have two days.

When Goku said Rosat would be needed? Viz is indeed a bit vague on this, but the Japanese Anime (That ought to be as accurate, if not even better than Herms) has Goku saying they might need on the future, implying it's only for future threats:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

You might as well try to justify me Gohan and Piccolo > Gotenks as the entry says Gotenks surpassed "Vegeta and the others". Let's not allow what's supposed to be only supportive information (The Guidebooks) override the main information (The original Manga)

No not really. Based on the power Piccolo sensed from Goku, he wondered whether Goku could beat Fat Buu, and Goku answers him that he would have lost. Goku then tells Piccolo that he didn't even try to beat him, but Piccolo rolled with the possibility that Goku is weaker, hence he wanted Gotenks to train more despite Goku claiming Gotenks will be stronger than him. Then we are given a concession from Goku that he could beat Buu.

Your argument is just speculation here. "Impossible" because of a reason that was never mentioned or implied isn't a reasoning.

Goku went really quick from "I don't think i could do it" to "It's not my duty anymore", Piccolo highly suspected something was going on. Piccolo can sense Ki just well (Well, except when it's convinient for the plot), he should be able to tell Goku is stronger than Boo.
It's also possible Piccolo assumed Boo was holding back (His Ki is "Like a lie" after all) but i find this one more doubtful.

It is not speculation. Not only no Super Saiyan showed the ability to suppress until the Cell Games, but Vegeta also shows surprise toward Goku and Gohan being able to suppress their power to such an "Ordinary" level:
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
And Goku stated he just achieved the form after transforming:
Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P7.5
Goku: “Sorry that took so long. I’m still not used to this transformation.”

So yeah, the odds for Goku being able to hide any power are pretty low.

Except he admits that he could have killed Buu before, which means he really was giving the impression that he's weaker than Buu:

Spoiler:View


So what you posted me doesn't prove much. The atmosphere was under pressure of the fact that Buu's power is unbeatable. So he had to calm down everybody, which is proven by him stating it's a gamble to leave things for Gotenks after sensing their powers, and that's under the possibility that Gotenks could enter the RoSAT. The only time Piccolo admits that Gotenks > Goku indirectly was when Gotenks was beating up Super Buu:

Spoiler:View


Never has it been implied before, other than using misinterpreted lines

Actually, he never implied he was weaker than Boo. When Piccolo asked him, Goku said he didn't know and when Piccolo questioned, Goku said it wasn't his duty anymore. Goku tries to avoid answering the question because he doesn't wanna lie to Piccolo.

Goku saying he could've killed Boo doesn't mean he's leaps and bounds above him, he says the same about Pure Boo even though they were dead even. Goku saying he could win is more like about how he could create a blast big enough to obliterate Boo, like he wanted to do on Pure Boo.

You're the one misinterpreted the quotes here. I'm taking the quotes at value, you are distorting them to say they are meaningless even though you have no evidence to backyourself up aside from a vague and inaccurate Daizenshuu entry.


I think it's better we agree to disagree on the movie issue. The power scaling is rather confusing.

[kn83]

Black Black vs Base Goku (ToP)
Piccolo(ToP) vs Trio de Dangers
SSJ4 Vegeta vs Super 17 (peak)
East Supreme Kai vs Perfect Cell
Great ape Vegeta (saiyan saga) vs Ginyu force

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

No it wasn't.

Yes it was. Goku even states that Vegito could do nothing to Beerus yet he thinks he could do something as SsjG

Suppressed Jiren would completely stomp Kefla, so I don't see your point.

Suppressed Jiren > Mutatrd Merged Zamasu. Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110 > Beerus > Mutated Merged Zamasu. Current Blue Goku > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110.

Because Goku and Vegeta are >>> Kale and Caulifla? 2 + 2 is bigger than 1 + 1, it's pretty cut and dry.

It's all implied together that Kefla > SsjB Vegito. You're going under the absurd assumption that no one improved.

Base Vegito was stronger than SSB in the manga. Base Kefla is weaker than SSB. And I said ssj Vegito is stronger than ssj Kefla, not ssj2 Kefla. Imo base Kefla<base Vegito<ssj Kefla<ssj Vegito<ssj2 Kefla<SSB Vegito

Kefla gets high balled way too much. Champa pretty much flat out said ssj Kefla couldn't beat Goku if he wasn't tired. Only ssj2 Kefla is above fully recovered kkx20 SSB Goku.

That's utterly wrong, contradicting what's mentioned in the show. Ssj Kefla is more powerful than what Champa originally suspected, and that downgraded Kefla in Champa's mind is far above Hit from Episode 111, who manages to dodge, attack, survive and compete with The SAME Jiren who fought Ultra Instinct Goku.

Base copy Vegeta >>>>> SsjG BoG Goku

Proof? Imo he isn't nearly as strong as SSG Goku.

No, not even close. Ultra instinct Goku wasn't even strong, he was just good at dodging, and Whis even said Beerus knows ultra instinct as well. He just hasn't mastered it yet. Maybe mastered UI Goku will be above Beerus, but not the UI Goku was saw already.

I'll prove why Base Goku >>> SsjG Goku BoG. Why Kefla > SsjB Vegito Future Trunks arc, and why Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110 > Beerus:

[spoiler]Goku reverts back from SsjG while fighting Beerus:





Beerus thought that the SsjG Time Limit has gone, although Goku didn't show any sign of notice:



Goku reverts back to Ssj:



Everyone senses Goku's Ki, thus everyone came to the same conclusion:









Again, you would think this means Goku got weaker while reverting back to Ssj right?

Wrong

You'd think this is the case based on the fact that Beerus easily starts to push Goku away:









Beerus casually pushed Goku with a finger as shown above, and casually talks while Goku is trying to attack him.

Is that true though? NO.

Prior to all that, before Goku started reverting back to Ssj, he still had his SsjG power intact, thus no one sensed him, and neither did Whis comment anything on it. Yet Beerus managed to ridicule that SAME SSJG POWER:





He quite clearly implies that Beerus is STILL using that same power against SsjG either way. Nothing suggests Beerus powered down. That's why he's easily blabbering while SsjG Goku is trying his best fighting Beerus.

Beerus specifies "this much power". Which amount of power? The power he is CURRENTLY using.

It doesn't make sense for Goku to get weaker. By Beerus's words themselves: Goku kept surpassing his limits during this same fight:



This is exactly what Goku's entire case revolves around in here, as will be shown down...

Vegeta throws a Ki blast towards Piccolo and Whis, because both of them thought this was "over" in which case Goku reverted to Regular Ssj, thus he "automatically lost" or at least according to them. Vegeta's action signifies that it isn't over yet:





Goku himself still dashes towards Beerus, without realizing he got weaker. This is all after he got flicked by Beerus:



This same Ssj Goku does better than the Goku who, at the end, faired very worse against Beerus:





This caused Beerus to question himself again (he wouldn't do that if he was weaker or if he was getting weaker, since Goku later got even stronger as a Ssj):





Happens TWICE:





Beerus knows that Goku can surpass his limits naturally.

Beerus tells Goku the case:





"I thought your time was up"

Implying he never got the slightest bit weaker at all.

Goku realizes he changed after being notified by Beerus:







Goku bluntly confesses that he doesn't feel weaker at all:





Beerus explains it:









With all of that mentioned, we can easily conclude that Goku's Power never got weaker at all. Despite the form being lost (this time limit was retconned in the tournament of power arc), the power completely merged with Goku. Thus, the power itself remained inside him, rather than the form in general. No power was lost, and Goku is still prone to getting stronger and breaking his initial limits further more.

Proof of Goku getting even further stronger is when he powered up to fight a powered-up Beerus and manages to trade blows with him, and enjoys the fight with Beerus:











The Narrator then confirms that only at this point did both characters perform a "true godly battle" rather than before (He also added to the notion "fighting idiots" or along this phrase, to emphasize their crazy lust for battle and how dense they are when it comes to usual critical manners, which is evident when Beerus said to Goku that his ignorance or foolishness has rubbed him off already):











The episode titles prove this:



They start all the way from "show me the power of Super Saiyan God!" which is the initial point, then we are shown that they are still going on with it, given we know Goku gets stronger through battle, then "Goku, Go Surpass Super Saiyan God!":



It is honestly evident enough here that they're trying to imply to us that Goku got stronger as a Ssj.

That's why later on, when Beerus decides to get even stronger and increase his strength, he starts soloing Goku, but he rises up telling Beerus it isn't over yet:



Despite having said before that he went Full Power:



Now you're probably thinking that it's only Ssj right? WRONG

Before we move on on a huge scale, let's go step by step, It's far neater and better that way

You might argue that Goku got weaker in the next episode (despite the fact that Episode 13 already proves that Goku got a lot stronger rather than weaker) because of this:





Although This actually proves nothing of that sort. Beerus is just trying to provoke Goku into showing more power than he's already doing by beating him up. In fact, this is just Beerus trying to state that a "SsjG" concept-wise is supposed to be stronger, and Nothing more or less.

Proof of Beerus just trying to provoke Goku is his reaction after Goku powers up based on Beerus's provocation:





That's It? For getting weaker? Goku powers up even MORE than before, and before was Goku getting even more powerful than SsjG. Apparently, Beerus wants to fight Goku at his fullest, so he's destroying him and provoking him into releasing more power, not getting weaker, or otherwise it would have been mentioned.

Ssj Goku Episode 13/14 >>>>> SsjG

Beerus starts beating up Goku casually again by increasing his power:







But all of this actually shows us that Beerus is far beyond Goku and that Beerus is using even further power against Goku, but Still having Goku beyond Beerus.

Beerus literally laughs and declares himself a winner with utmost joy when he outclasses Goku, which absolutely makes no sense if Goku got weaker since Beerus already proved himself to be above SsjG Goku on Episode 13 so Goku losing would be pretty much expected:





Yet even after all that, Goku comes back stating he's not done Yet, catching Beerus's attention, while barely phased from Beerus's blasts:





This would mean Goku would have to have gotten even stronger, due to the fact he couldn't with stand his earlier attacks, but then got stronger. An evidence behind it is Beerus praising Goku's Ssj power as the true power of a SsjG, the one he was always searching for, despite not saying a word of that to Goku previously until Goku powered up to his best. Beerus draws out a smirk on his face based on that power Goku put out which partially resisted Beerus's nullification:





Afterwards, Goku reverts back to Base form, completely beaten by Beerus. However Beerus states that Goku absorbed the SsjG power and PERFECTED IT. Beerus also credits his Ask power by stating that he let him use "this" much power:









Even more Proof that Goku got stronger is Beerus's next statement:



According to Beerus, he doubted the greatness to a SsjG until the end bit when he fought Goku. The only time he told Goku this was after his power increase when Goku resisted his Nullification power. This implies Goku got yet even FAR beyond SsjG, not weaker.

Goku Yet stands up again and gets stronger:









Not only does Goku believe he can beat the Beerus who Goku got a taste of his power (Usually characters can tell how strong another is just by witnessing them. They do underestimate them sometimes though), but he states he hasn't used all his power yet which goes contradictory to what he said AND did before.

Goku powers up yet again to his "every Ounce of Power", making Beerus state that he won't be able to extinguish him as easily. This implies that Beerus originally thought it's easy to extinguish Goku prior to the current situation, making Goku as a Ssj in the current situation beyond What he originally was before:







Here, Goku fires an all-out Kamehameha to Beerus, and Beerus throws a blast enough to "extinguish" Goku (Beerus implies that by telling Goku to show him every ounce of his power, then implying it's going to be the last thing). However, both of their attacks combine, creating the sphere of destruction, controlled under Beerus's favor (implying Beerus won the beam struggle overall):







Goku is forced to block that same blast which would destroy everything which gets near it. Goku tries as a Ssj but fails:









Note that this was even before Beerus makes The ball stronger and larger.

Goku states that it still isn't over yet. You'd think he's simply in denial, but an interesting thing is about to take place:



Beerus tells Goku "you really sure you're not at your limit"? Beerus believes Goku's limit has been completely been reached, which is the level Goku got to as a Ssj. Goku however tells him to "shut up" and DESTROYS the Sphere of Destruction in base form:











Goku tells Beerus to Shut up because Beerus is deciding his limit to be where he got, which provokes Goku. This implids Goku at this time completely broke his limits, making his base form even beyond Regular Ssj that surpassed SsjG on multiple occasions far beyond normality. This is more evident as Goku tells Beerus not to judge people's limits, and laughs at the end, implying he surpassed his limits and beat Beerus's ever expectations completely::









Making Base Goku End of Episode 14 > Ssj Goku Episodes13/14 >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG Episode 9+

You might argue it's temporary, but no. That was NEVER been stated before and just speculation. Later arcs prove this to be the case which we'll go on in this. Some people might try to bring Vegeta's case, although his case is very different (Goku's case is shown to us that Goku broke his limits, unlike Vegeta who mutated into a temporary transformation), as in Vegeta's case, it's STATED by Beerus that his power fell back implying it to be a temporary boost. Another thing is that Vegeta's power was a transformation:



Even Episode 14's Title implies that Goku used every last bit of his power, which was in BASE FORM:



Let's further continue now through the arcs

Vegeta tries to surpass Goku and Beerus by training as hard as possible, and he certainly did get stronger than before, but nowhere near Goku and Beerus. Whis states that If Vegeta trains the same way, he'll never reach anywhere near Beerus:



This also includes Goku, as later on, Whis tells Vegeta if he learns to perfectly control his Ki, then he'll surpass Goku. This implies that if Vegeta doesn't learn this, he won't be able to surpass Goku, since this is also the only suggested way to surpass Goku by Whis, a character beyond Beerus:





Back then, it is believed by Vegeta that the SsjG Form in general has ran out, though Goku still absorbed that power and perfected it, besides already breaking his limits forth. So Vegeta is trying to surpass the Goku Who has broke his limits beyond what has already surpassed SsjG Goku's Power from BoG prior absorbing its power. Vegeta is trying to surpass Goku without going SsjG. He believes SsjG is useless, so he doesn't want to undergo the ritual, which Goku implies to be needed when Goku tells him that they promised so. This implies Goku REALLY did surpass SsjG power:









Notice How Vegeta differentiates SsjG from Goku in general? All relating to the same conclusion.

Vegeta trains for 6 months with Whis on Beerus's planet, which is a training supposed to be powerful enough to surpass Goku, who surpassed SsjG BoG as a Ssj and in Base Form as well. Vegeta is credited by Goku that he might have surpassed Goku, the being who surpassed SsjG from before:





Goku Even comments that Vegeta's Ki is completely different than it was on Earth, and not just power-wise, but almost everything about it, Type-Wise and all. Goku even "hardly" believes that he is Vegeta. Yet despite all that he states "you might be" and later is shown that Goku is Stronger Than Vegeta yet, but relative. This mainly shows that Vegeta's increase in power is astronomical indeed, to an utmost point which wouldn't be relevant if it was inferior to god levels, ESPECIALLY since According to Whis, this type of training would make Vegeta good enough to surpass Goku, who is referenced to have his God Level:





Goku And Vegeta in base form while being completely defenseless (They were occupied by their previous training from Whis) survived being Hit by a Ki blast from Beerus:









Whis Even makes it sound as if surviving it is a great feat on its own. If you think this blast was weak in comparison to what Goku fought, then you're absolutely wrong. Vegeta states that because Beerus is sleeping, he can't hold back:



Goku Even complements Vegeta on surving Beerus's attacks head on. This stimulates the factor of Zenkai boosts in them, which would be a huge factor to why Vegeta would gain this much power. All of this was done in BASE FORMS:





All of this shows how their base forms is in the realm of Gods as to how they are capable of surviving Beerus's unrestrained attacks, and in Base form. Ssj Goku was getting destroyed by Holding Back Beerus while fighting Beerus, suggesting that the power increase he got is certainly astronomical

We're still far from done yet. In RoF arc, when Krillin and Gohan sense Base Goku and Final Form Frieza fighting, Krillin implies that this battle (and in accordance to Gohan's reference to Ki), is more intense and holds MORE POWER than when Goku went against Beerus:





Basically, Krillin's and Gohan's fear and feel of the energies and intensity of the fight that's occurring surpasses that of Goku when he fought Beerus.

Do Note that, the Z Fighters sensed Goku's battle with Beerus when revered back to Ssj, got stronger by far, and his base form when he busted the sphere of Destruction

Proof of them sensing Goku in general after reverting back from SsjG (his Regular forms have no God Ki, enabling normal beings to sense his power):





You may argue that the narrator said Goku only surpassed SsjG when he went SsjB:



Wrong. This only implies that Goku learned to transform into a Stronger transformation. This is herm's translation and the interpretation based the translation:

Narrator: "In order to surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God."

Significance: As chapter 5 indicated a few months ago, Goku's blue form is a step up from Super Saiyan God. Also, another instance of "mutation" being used to describe a transformation.

Also, Krillin implies that Goku surpassed SsjG Transformation-Wise not power wise from BoG, as it also wouldn't make sense considering they can't even sense God Ki, which Gohan outrightly states in the following:















This is supported by how King Kai references the fact that Goku can now go SsjG without the ritual, which means the point wasn't about power, but was about transformation-wise:





Goku Even confirms it's a form that surpasses a SsjG (aside from the narrator from the next episode, meaning the narrator interpreted it that way), and not stating that it's a form which allows him to "surpass his power from when he went SsjG". This correlates with the previous references about it being only transformation-wise:



According to Whis, Goku and Vegeta reached a level where they're barely capable of sensing God Ki. This implies that there's a specific tier that you should top in order to get into the God Tier Zone:



Vegeta does that In base, and "barely". Note that at this time, their bases have already surpassed SsjG BoG at that time. SsjG Goku is the tip of the God Zone, as mentioned by Whis that just barely reached the level where they can sense God Ki, and in general, Despite having surpassed SsjG. This establishes the fact that Goku got stronger In base considering he's still "one step ahead of Vegeta":



Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases (Basically whis states that Goku and Vegeta should become stronger without going Super Saiyans). However, that's not actually the point of this statement. The term "Super Saiyan" can refer to all Super Saiyan forms, and this is exactly what Whis is referring to, reaffirming what Akira Toriyama stated in Saiko Jump's June 2014 Issue about Goku and Vegeta no longer resorting to going Ssj2 or Ssj3, and instead focus on mastering their base and regular Super Saiyan form (This was completely changed in later arcs, however based on the Tournament of Power, it can be concluded Goku mastered Ssj2, though not Ssj3 due to the Stamina Issues still being factored). Another point Whis implies is how training in their bases would be much more effective than in Super Saiyans, as Both Goku and Vegeta realize they should train in their bases rather than a Super Saiyan, otherwise they wouldn't know the realm of power that lies ahead, supported by the fact that Both Vegeta and Goku never once went Super Saiyan despite Whis never dismissing the idea of transforming:









So if anything, this supports me in many ways, as it also correlates with the previous scans which we used to prove our point. This rule of not transforming into more than a regular Super Saiyan has been obeyed and followed till the Universe 6 Arc, until it was completely ignored during the Future Trunks Arc.

The Goku in RoF arc has far surpassed his previous counterpart ridiculously. Beerus states that Goku got a lot stronger than back then (it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can only transform into Regular Super Saiyan if they wanted for any reason so that they could improve. This is supported by Whis, where he states that for them to improve, they should rely on their Base, and reaffirms the usage of Super Saiyan, and Base Mastery, hence relating to What Akira Toriyama Suggested previously. Although this was after achieving SsjB, Beerus has no knowledge of this, and even Whis generalizes their inferiority when it comes to going to the dimension {Despite both having SsjB's initial power} which you can't move in unless you prevent the leakage of your Ki despite even stating that they became much more powerful in a very short amount of time, with surprised tone. Beerus apparently realized the Saiyan's Potential, which explains why he wanted to hurry and throw them in that Dimension Whis sends them to, as they'd improve quickly to give Beerus fun fighting him) and wanted to fight him (Goku admits his utter inferiority to Beerus Power-Wise though) {I'd also like to mention that if Goku and Vegeta were to be thrown in that Dimension which Whis throws both to, he thought (Despite witnessing their power and initial SsjB power) it's too much for them. Both Goku and Vegeta live up to Beerus's expectations}:









Both Goku and Vegeta are thrown into a place which is far beyond their limits back then:





Again, this was after Whis witnessing Goku's and Vegeta's initial SsjB power:







Indeed, both Goku and Vegeta manage to surpass their limits and become capable of moving in this Dimension Whis throws them into, meeting Beerus's Expectations and surpassing Whis's:















(NOTE: This "Initial SsjB" business, while it's true it might (MIGHT) be temporary transformation-wise, the power itself was never said to be temporary, since Vegeta smirks as he achieves this power and whis notes their heightened powers, implying they got stronger at the instance forward).

Goku got far stronger than before that it's utterly ridiculous to say the least. I'll be showing that more now

In the Universe 6 Arc, Goku and Vegeta enter the Room Of Spirit And Time for 3 years, continuously training together, so their must have been a significant increase, although not much known (but significant). You may argue that Vegeta stated they reached their limits:



That's completely wrong. Vegeta was already distant from the idea of training with his rival, Kakarot. While that may seem to be an assumption pulled out by me at first sight, I've proven (easily done) it. This ultimately and factually proves it isn't an assumption, considering the show, as expected, contradicted itself. Characters have been getting stronger yet so it isn't a stretch to say they got stronger.

Base Goku in the Universe 6 tournament manages to scratch hit:





You would think that this is not a reliable answer, right? Wrong. We know Vegeta gets completely destroyed as a SsjB against Hit

Hit dashes towards Vegeta in high speeds:





Vegeta claims Hit is actually FAST. Hit is at SsjB Tier in terms of Speed since he acknowledged him as "fast" while in SsjB:



Vegeta then further comments the following:



"At this low level of Speed".

The claim here makes us conclude Vegeta is a lot faster than Hit Naturally.

Vegeta furthers to attack:



And hit notices it at the process (He can precieve SsjB Tier Movements and Combat Speeds):



Hit suddenly, out of the blue, manages to hit Vegeta:





Actually knocking Vegeta back:





Given that Vegeta acknowledges Hit's speed and seeing how Hit can perceive SsjB Tier speeds, this would logically suggest that Hit had time to to react to Base Goku's attack. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying Base Goku (Actually they made Goku out to be far above Vegeta, but it's not really the issue here. It can also be argued and interpreted either way, so it isn't a reliable thing to state) is Stronger or equal to SsjB Vegeta, but this however suggests that Base Goku is in the same plate of strength as a SsjB Tier as well (something absolutely not possible for a Buu Saga Tier). Hit was capable of Keeping up with SsjB Goku and even tank his hits:



So Logically he's supposed to have had his time to tank Base Goku, but scratching him is nowhere near possible whatsoever unless your strength is out there.

Goku is far faster than Vegeta. Goku requests Hit to use Time-Skip on him. But then the following series of events occur:

Goku challenges Hit speed-wise:



Goku is completely stopped; No prediction is occurring:



Goku has no chance of moving or predetermining an action which is yet to happen:



Goku breaks through Time-Skip and manages to Attack Hit, all referencing speed only:



Base Goku needed to Predict Hit's movements so that he could attack Hit. However, now Goku is fast enough to break through it with sheer speed

If you want to argue that it's resistance, then no. Goku references his speed directly:



Goku implies that he believes Hit has no chance against him Speed-wise. Hit later improves, enough that it allows his speed to stop from breaking through. Hit however didn't get stronger in a sense of Stats, but instead improved his Hax:



EVEN IF you want to argue it's resistance, that would still mean that SsjB Goku is far stronger than Vegeta would have hoped to reach since it didn't work with Vegeta (Vegeta wouldn't have needed to understand the Trick behind Time-Skip to counter hit if he was stronger, enough to resist him). Despite the fact that we know SsjB wears stamina down so easily, probably suggesting Vegeta's easy loss against Hit, this is completely wrong and illogical as Vegeta barely had any time to stay locked onto SsjB, unlike Goku who stayed in his SsjB form most of the time after figuring out how to counter Hit's technique through prediction in base form. SsjB transformation has a ridiculous multiplier between SsjG and SsjB which we witnessed later through the show, especially in the newest arc of Dragon Ball Super, the Tournament of Power. We won't however jump all the way there, since we still have things to argue.

That All would suggest Goku being far beyond Vegeta. And we already showed how even touching Hit would require your power to be in the same plate as SsjB Tier (we know that the SsjB Multiplier is far beyond regular Base Form, and that it is far beyond SsjG multiplier. The Super Saiyan God Multiplier increases your strength more than the difference between Base Goku BoG {Pre God Boost} and Ssj3 Vegito BoG {Goku implied that even Vegito is no match for Beerus, but he thought he can win as a SsjG}. Heck, we can even imply Failed-Ritual Ssj is even beyond a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito BoG because his power was agreed even by Vegeta to possibly be the SsjG {Proven wrong later on} Implying Failed-Ritual Ssj Goku is Stronger than Vegito BoG, but then again, The Ritual was supposed to push Goku beyond the boundaries of regular powers and into the God Realm either way, so Goku's SsjG Multiplier is far beyond normality), this would suggest Base Goku has far surpassed the old powers from BoG (Pre God Form) and his power from RoF which we already showcased to be beyond SsjG Goku BoG arc. Goku's Base Form far surpassed His SsjG Counterpart From the BoG Arc.

Now Let's Move On To The Filler Episode, Episode 42

Base Goku was capable of surviving Beerus's attacks and go against him. You might argue that Beerus was restricted right? I mean, Jaco states it, and Vegeta confirms it:







However, this doesn't mean Goku in base form is a bit above his Buu Saga counterpart, or at the very least far weaker than his BoG SsjG counterpart. All this means is that Beerus is restricted. However, there is a flaw which people fail to recognize. Let's look at the events from the start:

Beerus at first decides to end the battle as quick as possible with Goku so that he could get out of the costume he's wearing (he was quite skeptical about wearing it and questioned the idea of a God Of Destruction even wearing such a silly costume):



That would suggest that Beerus thinks he can easily bring Goku down. Remember what Beerus did against Ssj3 Goku in the BoG Arc? 2 shots, a flick and a push onto the shoulder was needed to knock Ssj3 Goku out, and a heavily suppressed Beerus at that. Beerus goes on to punch Base Goku, bearing In his mind that he needs to knock Goku out:



The Question here shifts into whether Beerus has the ability to knock Goku as easily as It was made out to be (bearing in mind that Goku should not be killed). Regardless whether Beerus had the costume or not, Beerus would have no trouble knocking Goku out for days if he was just a bit stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart, or even Buu Level. Goku evenly fights with a restricted suppressed Beerus who's decided to knock Goku out (Beerus doesn't seem to be quick enough to knock Goku, though this doesn't suggest anything of his main power):





At This point, Beerus's hand has become revealed and seen. So Beerus had the option to ultimately fuck Goku just as he did with Ssj3 Goku in BoG, if not worse, but Couldn't Easily achieve such a feat. He could have even knocked him as easily as he did when he almost killed SsjG Goku, but again, COULDN'T, which is an obvious occurrence, revealing how strong Goku is (He even survives direct attacks from Beerus for the sole purpose of knocking him out){Although Beerus even blocks some of Goku's attacks with one hand, it still doesn't change any of what we mentioned, since this would only mean Beerus is far beyond Goku}:









If you still doubt this, then look at the later scans. Beerus got so excited, he powers up further and laughs loudly out of Joy of fighting BASE GOKU:





You might argue that Beerus got that much excited because Whis stated that Beerus was itched to fight somebody when he was just a spectator looking at the fights occurring between Universe 6 and Universe 7. Does that mean normally he wouldn't enjoy himself?

WRONG

Look carefully at what Whis states:





Whis DIRECRLY references a surprise at Beerus's joyment (implying the rarity for Beerus to enjoy a fight, and a proof of this is that Beerus rarely even gets any challenge, but it depends on who gets it. For example, Beerus was utterly shocked with Goku's request of fighting Beerus, which according to Beerus it's been hundreds to millions of years since anyone ever told him such a thing, yet he still didn't enjoy himself against Goku until he went SsjG. Beerus shows Signs that he enjoys himself against Base Goku far more than when he fought SsjG despite him being itching to battle the SsjG, so the excitement of battle would be equated as between back then in BoG and when he saw the Tournament fights, yet he still enjoys himself more with Base Goku and Whis is even surprised that he's having fun ¿for some reason? despite fighting SsjG Goku earlier on in BoG arc). Whis then states that it's of no surprise that he got joyful in a battle LIKE THIS (a reference to Base Goku against Beerus, so it was apparent):





It becomes obvious that Goku in base is way too capable than anything that could ever exist before:



Beerus almost cries out of enjoyment and Goku then powers up EVEN MORE:





Even Vegito Ssj3 BoG arc cannot even make Beerus enjoy himself. Goku originally thought that Vegito cannot even beat Beerus, based on the performance Goku witnessed from Beerus while being suppressed:





It's already established that SsjG Goku BoG is Stronger Than a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito, and Goku even surpassed his limits as a Ssj. However Beerus was going to regret being so interested about this SsjG power and beyond until Goku even powers to further after pushing Beerus to space with a push (We already showed this before). This contradicts his reaction when he fought Base Goku and enjoyed himself so much so that he was laughing so loudly Goku even got weirded. This would suggest that Base Goku is stronger than Ssj3 Vegito.

In the next filler Arc, we see Copy Vegeta, who's exactly as strong as Vegeta, surviving Gotenks Ssj3 Causally in base form, and later, while suppressed, stomping him:





This doesn't show anything about base Goku or Vegeta being near SsjG, however it shows their utter improvement. But we do get something

Each arc seems to define the other. As we're moving on, we are directly being referenced to the same point, and this arc is no different, as it shows nothing contradicting what's been previously mentioned, and instead indirectly supporting it by proving Goku's and Vegeta's ridiculous power gains and improvements throughout the show (Goku matches Vegeta in Base and both of them are noted to be FAR stronger than before from the Universe 6 Arc by far). It's already too obvious now, but we'll continue.

In the future trunks arc, you might argue that Goku struggled with Trunks. I mean, Trunks who barely defeated Dabura!!!:



But whoever buys this, calm down, lmao. Because you're probably misunderstanding this entire situation. Here, it is ALREADY concluded that Trunks is FAR FAR stronger than when he fought Dabura, as multiple years has passed and I'll prove how he got suddenly this strong. Another thing is, Goku was suppressed which I'LL PROVE ALSO DOWN HERE.

It's true, Trunks's battle with Dabura was "intense" and "difficult" as described by himself:











When trunks first went on to fight black Goku, he was defeated with one blow, with ease, just that:



After a whole year, Trunks seem to be able to spar with black Goku proving the point that he became more powerful:



(Note: As I'll be showing later on that Goku was holding back against Trunks, it could just simply be a form of anger which allowed Trunks to fight against Goku black like that given that we witness a form of rage coming from him when He though Mai died due to Goku black. However, Goku Black was laughing and having his fun the entire battle so the point stays relevant anyways)

Beerus Even credits Trunks enough to call him decent and a good fighter based on how he matched Ssj2 Goku (who was suppressed) {Though this is not much, it does show that Trunks got stronger}:

[/spoiler]