The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Champa The Destroyer]

I stand corrected, I think the Sphere of Destruction feat was most likely just an act of desperation, not his standard base power.

I agree, and I think that is what the writers were trying to get across to be honest. Given the fact this immediately followed Goku essentially falling unconscious.

However, I still think that by the time of the TOP, Goku's SS should be above the ritual in BOG.

Don't you mean by the time of the ToP his Base surpassed the ritual in BoG? In BoG his SSJ was stated by Goku and Beerus themselves to be as strong as SSG from a moment ago so I think SSJ GOk(ToP)>SSG Goku(BoG) kind of goes without saying.

And imo the narrator only saying SSB surpassed God was probably to say that he found a higher transformation. For example, a big plot point in the Cell Arc was the protagonists going beyond Super Saiyan. Does this mean that up until SS Grade 2 that Vegeta was weaker than SS Goku in the Namek Arc? Of course not. However, I still stand by my opinion that SS4 Gogeta vs SSB Goku (U6) is close.

The narrator's statement is the only real indication comparing the current power in ROF to SSG from BoG. It may appear to be referring to the transformation itself, but I think that the intention of the line was to establish where things stand in terms of power not strictly in terms of transformations. The example you gave was referring to equivalent forms too. Of course, a stronger Vegeta in SSJ is stronger than Goku in the same form on Namek. We are discussing an "inferior" form (Base) surpassing SSG. There's no precedent set earlier in the series and I would imagine had Goku/Vegeta surpassed that level it would have been made more clear or shown in some other way.

Yeah I don't see anything wrong with saying SSJ4 Gogeta vs U6 Arc SSB Goku is close is an irrational opinion. I just wanted to point out that saying Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG is fairly objectively false.

Yeah, considering the massive gains in the Future Trunks Arc and the TOP, his base should be above BOG era ritual form. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta (no time limit) could beat? I'm asking because I'm not quite sure myself.

[PFM18]

I stand corrected, I think the Sphere of Destruction feat was most likely just an act of desperation, not his standard base power.

I agree, and I think that is what the writers were trying to get across to be honest. Given the fact this immediately followed Goku essentially falling unconscious.

However, I still think that by the time of the TOP, Goku's SS should be above the ritual in BOG.

Don't you mean by the time of the ToP his Base surpassed the ritual in BoG? In BoG his SSJ was stated by Goku and Beerus themselves to be as strong as SSG from a moment ago so I think SSJ GOk(ToP)>SSG Goku(BoG) kind of goes without saying.

And imo the narrator only saying SSB surpassed God was probably to say that he found a higher transformation. For example, a big plot point in the Cell Arc was the protagonists going beyond Super Saiyan. Does this mean that up until SS Grade 2 that Vegeta was weaker than SS Goku in the Namek Arc? Of course not. However, I still stand by my opinion that SS4 Gogeta vs SSB Goku (U6) is close.

The narrator's statement is the only real indication comparing the current power in ROF to SSG from BoG. It may appear to be referring to the transformation itself, but I think that the intention of the line was to establish where things stand in terms of power not strictly in terms of transformations. The example you gave was referring to equivalent forms too. Of course, a stronger Vegeta in SSJ is stronger than Goku in the same form on Namek. We are discussing an "inferior" form (Base) surpassing SSG. There's no precedent set earlier in the series and I would imagine had Goku/Vegeta surpassed that level it would have been made more clear or shown in some other way.

Yeah I don't see anything wrong with saying SSJ4 Gogeta vs U6 Arc SSB Goku is close is an irrational opinion. I just wanted to point out that saying Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG is fairly objectively false.

Yeah, considering the massive gains in the Future Trunks Arc and the TOP, his base should be above BOG era ritual form. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta (no time limit) could beat? I'm asking because I'm not quite sure myself.

Yeah that's fair enough. From U6->time shortly after Zamasu Arc=10x boost for Goku and Vegeta since Goku was able to break Hit's time dimension without Kaioken. Personally, my numbers look like this(Where a 1 on this scale is equal to Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku):

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post-ritual): 22,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 440
Base Goku during Revivial of F: 880
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 1,100
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 2,200
Base Goku Post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000
Base Goku start of the Tournament of Power: 12,100


So I think at the start of the ToP Goku was about 60% of his SSG BoG self and by the end of the ToP he probably surpassed it in his base form.

SSJ3 Kefla vs Limits Broken Jiren
Beerus vs SSBE Vegeta(post-rage boost)
(Tenshinhan vs Kururin) Buu Arc
SSJ2 Vegeta Buu Arc vs SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games
Base Cabba vs SSJ Goku(Baby Arc)

[theherodjl]

Yeah that's fair enough. From U6->time shortly after Zamasu Arc=10x boost for Goku and Vegeta since Goku was able to break Hit's time dimension without Kaioken. Personally, my numbers look like this(Where a 1 on this scale is equal to Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku):

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post-ritual): 22,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 440
Base Goku during Revivial of F: 880
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 1,100
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 2,200
Base Goku Post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000
Base Goku start of the Tournament of Power: 12,100


So I think at the start of the ToP Goku was about 60% of his SSG BoG self and by the end of the ToP he probably surpassed it in his base form.

I'd just chalk that up to anime power inconsistencies. There are other such things such as Base Goku dodging Hit's timeskip in the U6 tournament, Base Black momentarily being stronger than SSJB Vegeta, and Base Goku(again) having the strength to keep Jiren's limit-breaking power from slaughtering Freeza & Android 17. I'd say that Goku maybe doubled in power between the BOG arc to the ROF arc, and then another double from the ROF arc to the U6 tournament. His strength gains from the U6 arc to the ToP arc are probably not as substantial as the previous ones, and I'd be generous to say its another double all added up. So Goku is 8x stronger, from just after the SSJG-ritual all the way to the ToP arc, throughout DBS. He shouldn't be anywhere close to his BOG SSJG form just in base form by the ToP. I'd say that his ToP SSJ form is almost at the degree of his BOG SSJG form.

[PFM18]

Yeah that's fair enough. From U6->time shortly after Zamasu Arc=10x boost for Goku and Vegeta since Goku was able to break Hit's time dimension without Kaioken. Personally, my numbers look like this(Where a 1 on this scale is equal to Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku):

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post-ritual): 22,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 440
Base Goku during Revivial of F: 880
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 1,100
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 2,200
Base Goku Post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000
Base Goku start of the Tournament of Power: 12,100


So I think at the start of the ToP Goku was about 60% of his SSG BoG self and by the end of the ToP he probably surpassed it in his base form.

I'd just chalk that up to anime power inconsistencies. There are other such things such as Base Goku dodging Hit's timeskip in the U6 tournament, Base Black momentarily being stronger than SSJB Vegeta, and Base Goku(again) having the strength to keep Jiren's limit-breaking power from slaughtering Freeza & Android 17. I'd say that Goku maybe doubled in power between the BOG arc to the ROF arc, and then another double from the ROF arc to the U6 tournament. His strength gains from the U6 arc to the ToP arc are probably not as substantial as the previous ones, and I'd be generous to say its another double all added up. So Goku is 8x stronger, from just after the SSJG-ritual all the way to the ToP arc, throughout DBS. He shouldn't be anywhere close to his BOG SSJG form just in base form by the ToP. I'd say that his ToP SSJ form is almost at the degree of his BOG SSJG form.

Well quite frankly you'd be wrong to do that.

You appear to have completely missed the point with Base Goku vs Hit. This had quite literally nothing to do with power whatsoever. Goku predicted where Hit would attack and acted on it. He wasn't "dodging" the time-skip that doesn't make sense.

Base Black was just kind of there blocking SSB Vegeta, he was in no way stronger than SSB Vegeta. This is proven when SSB Vegeta is able to catch Black's punch in SSJ Rose before ultimately losing. (Showing there's no way he was weaker than Base Black)

Jiren was exhausted and was barely able to stand up at the end of the previous episode. This is not an inconsistency.

Goku objectively needs to have gotten 10x stronger since he could break the time dimension without Kaioken. So your 8x figure is invalidated. Also, your assertion that his SSJ form is almost as strong as SSG from BoG ignores Goku and Beerus both stating his SSJ(post-ritual) was as strong as SSG and how he surpassed those limits during that fight. Then the heavy emphasis throughout the Whis training.

To say that SSJ Goku(ToP)<SSG BoG is objectively false based on statements and feats within the series.

[ToshioWrites]

SSB Evolution Vegeta (post episode 126) vs UIO Goku (episode 110) , who is stronger?

[PFM18]

SSB Evolution Vegeta (post episode 126) vs UIO Goku (episode 110) , who is stronger?

I think SSBE Vegeta has a slight edge. I would have both around 30x SSB.

SSJ3 Kefla vs Limits Broken Jiren
Beerus vs SSBE Vegeta(post-rage boost)
(Tenshinhan vs Kururin) Buu Arc
SSJ2 Vegeta Buu Arc vs SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games
Base Cabba vs SSJ Goku(Baby Arc)

[theherodjl]

Well quite frankly you'd be wrong to do that.

You appear to have completely missed the point with Base Goku vs Hit. This had quite literally nothing to do with power whatsoever. Goku predicted where Hit would attack and acted on it. He wasn't "dodging" the time-skip that doesn't make sense.

Base Black was just kind of there blocking SSB Vegeta, he was in no way stronger than SSB Vegeta. This is proven when SSB Vegeta is able to catch Black's punch in SSJ Rose before ultimately losing. (Showing there's no way he was weaker than Base Black)

Jiren was exhausted and was barely able to stand up at the end of the previous episode. This is not an inconsistency.

Goku objectively needs to have gotten 10x stronger since he could break the time dimension without Kaioken. So your 8x figure is invalidated. Also, your assertion that his SSJ form is almost as strong as SSG from BoG ignores Goku and Beerus both stating his SSJ(post-ritual) was as strong as SSG and how he surpassed those limits during that fight. Then the heavy emphasis throughout the Whis training.

To say that SSJ Goku(ToP)<SSG BoG is objectively false based on statements and feats within the series.

Its all subjective opinion on where characters stand in power based on feats(consistent or inconsistent), and maybe statements if they're not too inaccurate with what is shown. There's no real right or wrong answer.

Base Goku being able to dodge any of Hit's attacks is nonsensical if Vegeta couldn't in SSJB. Chalk it up to anime logic. The manga seems a lot more clear cut on the scene.

For Base Black to block Vegeta, with his strongest transformation, on the offensive is also nonsensical. The difference between base & SSJB/SSJR is astronomical, and if you want to just brush it off then you're simply ignoring the significance of the feat. Chalk it up to more anime logic.

Jiren quickly blasted up to so much power again that Golden Freeza & Android 17's combined barrier couldn't hold his fury back, and yet a weakened, exhausted Base Goku can make all the difference? How is that not an inconsistency???

Says who??? Why does Goku *need* to be any substantial degree stronger to counter similar tricks he dealt with before at an inconsistent level of power? SSJ was only "SSJG tier" in the BOG arc as well. There's absolutely no mention of it in the later arcs.

Once more, the feats speak for themselves. Their consistency does not have to matter to have happened. That's the DBS anime for you.

[PFM18]

Well quite frankly you'd be wrong to do that.

You appear to have completely missed the point with Base Goku vs Hit. This had quite literally nothing to do with power whatsoever. Goku predicted where Hit would attack and acted on it. He wasn't "dodging" the time-skip that doesn't make sense.

Base Black was just kind of there blocking SSB Vegeta, he was in no way stronger than SSB Vegeta. This is proven when SSB Vegeta is able to catch Black's punch in SSJ Rose before ultimately losing. (Showing there's no way he was weaker than Base Black)

Jiren was exhausted and was barely able to stand up at the end of the previous episode. This is not an inconsistency.

Goku objectively needs to have gotten 10x stronger since he could break the time dimension without Kaioken. So your 8x figure is invalidated. Also, your assertion that his SSJ form is almost as strong as SSG from BoG ignores Goku and Beerus both stating his SSJ(post-ritual) was as strong as SSG and how he surpassed those limits during that fight. Then the heavy emphasis throughout the Whis training.

To say that SSJ Goku(ToP)<SSG BoG is objectively false based on statements and feats within the series.

Its all subjective opinion on where characters stand in power based on feats(consistent or inconsistent), and maybe statements if they're not too inaccurate with what is shown. There's no real right or wrong answer.

Base Goku being able to dodge any of Hit's attacks is nonsensical if Vegeta couldn't in SSJB. Chalk it up to anime logic. The manga seems a lot more clear cut on the scene.

For Base Black to block Vegeta, with his strongest transformation, on the offensive is also nonsensical. The difference between base & SSJB/SSJR is astronomical, and if you want to just brush it off then you're simply ignoring the significance of the feat. Chalk it up to more anime logic.

Jiren quickly blasted up to so much power again that Golden Freeza & Android 17's combined barrier couldn't hold his fury back, and yet a weakened, exhausted Base Goku can make all the difference? How is that not an inconsistency???

Says who??? Why does Goku *need* to be any substantial degree stronger to counter similar tricks he dealt with before at an inconsistent level of power?

Once more, the feats speak for themselves. Their consistency does not have to matter to have happened. That's the DBS anime for you.

Yes, most of these discussions are subjective in nature but most of the examples you gave are just objectively not inconsistencies.

Again, you are completely missing the point of that scene. Vegeta did not know that Hit was skipping time. Goku was predicting where he was going to hit when he skipped time. This had nothing to do with power and there was no "dodging" involved at all.

He wasn't blocking them in the sense that he saw the punches and caught them. He was literally holding his arms crossed out over his head/chest blocking Vegeta's attacks. All the while he is being pushed back.

I am not sure where the confusion is with the time dimension. Goku achieved the same feat he needed KKx10 to do with before. This is made abundantly clear that there was atleast a 10x increase in power.

SSJ was only "SSJG tier" in the BOG arc as well. There's absolutely no mention of it in the later arcs.

Not a clue what point you are trying to make.

Their consistency does not have to matter to have happened

Again, not a clue what you are trying to say here.

[theherodjl]

Yes, most of these discussions are subjective in nature but most of the examples you gave are just objectively not inconsistencies.

Again, you are completely missing the point of that scene. Vegeta did not know that Hit was skipping time. Goku was predicting where he was going to hit when he skipped time. This had nothing to do with power and there was no "dodging" involved at all.

He wasn't blocking them in the sense that he saw the punches and caught them. He was literally holding his arms crossed out over his head/chest blocking Vegeta's attacks. All the while he is being pushed back.

I am not sure where the confusion is with the time dimension. Goku achieved the same feat he needed KKx10 to do with before. This is made abundantly clear that there was atleast a 10x increase in power.

SSJ was only "SSJG tier" in the BOG arc as well. There's absolutely no mention of it in the later arcs.

Not a clue what point you are trying to make.

Their consistency does not have to matter to have happened

Again, not a clue what you are trying to say here.

They're illogical for the vast differences in power that make similar outcomes, and that makes them inconsistencies. It'd be something else if there was an explanation for why Base Saiyans can do alright, but then only do a bit better at their greatest transformation.

You're missing a point yourself. How does a SSJB not have the speed or reaction time to prevent a technique, but then a Base Saiyan can do just fine with astronomically lower speed & reaction time simply because he knows the trick? The manga at least justified it by having Vegeta's power drop substantially from using SSJB more than once.

And how does Base Black withstand SSJB Vegeta's punches with no damage? Does Boo arc Base Goku blocking Fat Boo's punches make sense just because he's stronger as a SSJ3?

If Base Goku can figure out Hit's trick from before, why does he need to be a minimum of 10x stronger to be able to stop it again? Is Hit using 10x more power than before?

There's zero evidence that Goku retained the whole "his SSJ is now equal to his former SSJG" moment that was in the BOG arc. Except for maybe that he possibly didn't lose it, but there's no mention of it again by anyone, even Beerus.

I'm basically saying that an inconsistency cannot just be brushed off as you've done with Base Black vs SSJB Vegeta. Base Black CAN withstand SSJB Vegeta's blows despite the power difference diue to anime logic.

[Champa The Destroyer]

I agree, and I think that is what the writers were trying to get across to be honest. Given the fact this immediately followed Goku essentially falling unconscious.




Don't you mean by the time of the ToP his Base surpassed the ritual in BoG? In BoG his SSJ was stated by Goku and Beerus themselves to be as strong as SSG from a moment ago so I think SSJ GOk(ToP)>SSG Goku(BoG) kind of goes without saying.


The narrator's statement is the only real indication comparing the current power in ROF to SSG from BoG. It may appear to be referring to the transformation itself, but I think that the intention of the line was to establish where things stand in terms of power not strictly in terms of transformations. The example you gave was referring to equivalent forms too. Of course, a stronger Vegeta in SSJ is stronger than Goku in the same form on Namek. We are discussing an "inferior" form (Base) surpassing SSG. There's no precedent set earlier in the series and I would imagine had Goku/Vegeta surpassed that level it would have been made more clear or shown in some other way.

Yeah I don't see anything wrong with saying SSJ4 Gogeta vs U6 Arc SSB Goku is close is an irrational opinion. I just wanted to point out that saying Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG is fairly objectively false.

Yeah, considering the massive gains in the Future Trunks Arc and the TOP, his base should be above BOG era ritual form. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta (no time limit) could beat? I'm asking because I'm not quite sure myself.

Yeah that's fair enough. From U6->time shortly after Zamasu Arc=10x boost for Goku and Vegeta since Goku was able to break Hit's time dimension without Kaioken. Personally, my numbers look like this(Where a 1 on this scale is equal to Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku):

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post-ritual): 22,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 440
Base Goku during Revivial of F: 880
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 1,100
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 2,200
Base Goku Post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000
Base Goku start of the Tournament of Power: 12,100


So I think at the start of the ToP Goku was about 60% of his SSG BoG self and by the end of the ToP he probably surpassed it in his base form.

SSJ3 Kefla vs Limits Broken Jiren
Beerus vs SSBE Vegeta(post-rage boost)
(Tenshinhan vs Kururin) Buu Arc
SSJ2 Vegeta Buu Arc vs SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games
Base Cabba vs SSJ Goku(Baby Arc)

Agreed. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta can beat?


I am going to say Limit Broken Jiren, just barely.
Imo it depends on if you have UIO above Beerus or not. If you do, then Vegeta, and if you don't, then Beerus.
Tenshinhan, because it I remember correctly, Krillin practically stopped training once he and 18 started a family.
Pre-Majin loses, Post-Majin wins.
I would say SS Goku.

[PFM18]

Yeah, considering the massive gains in the Future Trunks Arc and the TOP, his base should be above BOG era ritual form. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta (no time limit) could beat? I'm asking because I'm not quite sure myself.

Yeah that's fair enough. From U6->time shortly after Zamasu Arc=10x boost for Goku and Vegeta since Goku was able to break Hit's time dimension without Kaioken. Personally, my numbers look like this(Where a 1 on this scale is equal to Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku):

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post-ritual): 22,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 440
Base Goku during Revivial of F: 880
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 1,100
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 2,200
Base Goku Post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000
Base Goku start of the Tournament of Power: 12,100


So I think at the start of the ToP Goku was about 60% of his SSG BoG self and by the end of the ToP he probably surpassed it in his base form.

SSJ3 Kefla vs Limits Broken Jiren
Beerus vs SSBE Vegeta(post-rage boost)
(Tenshinhan vs Kururin) Buu Arc
SSJ2 Vegeta Buu Arc vs SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games
Base Cabba vs SSJ Goku(Baby Arc)

Agreed. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta can beat?


I am going to say Limit Broken Jiren, just barely.
Imo it depends on if you have UIO above Beerus or not. If you do, then Vegeta, and if you don't, then Beerus.
Tenshinhan, because it I remember correctly, Krillin practically stopped training once he and 18 started a family.
Pre-Majin loses, Post-Majin wins.
I would say SS Goku.

Which UIO? there's 3 of them
I agree about Tenshinhan, and the Majin Vegeta thing.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Yeah that's fair enough. From U6->time shortly after Zamasu Arc=10x boost for Goku and Vegeta since Goku was able to break Hit's time dimension without Kaioken. Personally, my numbers look like this(Where a 1 on this scale is equal to Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku):

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post-ritual): 22,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 440
Base Goku during Revivial of F: 880
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 1,100
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 2,200
Base Goku Post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000
Base Goku start of the Tournament of Power: 12,100


So I think at the start of the ToP Goku was about 60% of his SSG BoG self and by the end of the ToP he probably surpassed it in his base form.

SSJ3 Kefla vs Limits Broken Jiren
Beerus vs SSBE Vegeta(post-rage boost)
(Tenshinhan vs Kururin) Buu Arc
SSJ2 Vegeta Buu Arc vs SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games
Base Cabba vs SSJ Goku(Baby Arc)

Agreed. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta can beat?


I am going to say Limit Broken Jiren, just barely.
Imo it depends on if you have UIO above Beerus or not. If you do, then Vegeta, and if you don't, then Beerus.
Tenshinhan, because it I remember correctly, Krillin practically stopped training once he and 18 started a family.
Pre-Majin loses, Post-Majin wins.
I would say SS Goku.

Which UIO? there's 3 of them
I agree about Tenshinhan, and the Majin Vegeta thing.

Either the first or second one. I've heard some say that since Suppressed ep110 Jiren was said to possibly be stronger than Beerus that UIO (110 and 116) should be stronger than Beerus, and if you believe that, then Vegeta would win. If not, Beerus wins.



I know they are pretty much equivalent, but Complete SSB Goku vs SSB Kaioken x20 Goku? Their bases are equal and no stamina issues.

[PFM18]

Agreed. So who do you think is the strongest character in Super that SS4 Gogeta can beat?


I am going to say Limit Broken Jiren, just barely.
Imo it depends on if you have UIO above Beerus or not. If you do, then Vegeta, and if you don't, then Beerus.
Tenshinhan, because it I remember correctly, Krillin practically stopped training once he and 18 started a family.
Pre-Majin loses, Post-Majin wins.
I would say SS Goku.

Which UIO? there's 3 of them
I agree about Tenshinhan, and the Majin Vegeta thing.

Either the first or second one. I've heard some say that since Suppressed ep110 Jiren was said to possibly be stronger than Beerus that UIO (110 and 116) should be stronger than Beerus, and if you believe that, then Vegeta would win. If not, Beerus wins.



I know they are pretty much equivalent, but Complete SSB Goku vs SSB Kaioken x20 Goku? Their bases are equal and no stamina issues.

I don't much care for the manga, so I am not as confident in my analysis, but I think SSBKK would have a slight edge if we are saying no stamina issues.

Also, as far as SSJ4 Gogeta vs Super, again, I am not a big fan of GT so I don't put as much thought into it, but I think he could beat Golden Freeza during RoF if we are going by the higher multiplier, and he can beat U6 SSBKKx10 if we are going by the other multiplier I came up with.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Which UIO? there's 3 of them
I agree about Tenshinhan, and the Majin Vegeta thing.

Either the first or second one. I've heard some say that since Suppressed ep110 Jiren was said to possibly be stronger than Beerus that UIO (110 and 116) should be stronger than Beerus, and if you believe that, then Vegeta would win. If not, Beerus wins.



I know they are pretty much equivalent, but Complete SSB Goku vs SSB Kaioken x20 Goku? Their bases are equal and no stamina issues.

I don't much care for the manga, so I am not as confident in my analysis, but I think SSBKK would have a slight edge if we are saying no stamina issues.

Also, as far as SSJ4 Gogeta vs Super, again, I am not a big fan of GT so I don't put as much thought into it, but I think he could beat Golden Freeza during RoF if we are going by the higher multiplier, and he can beat U6 SSBKKx10 if we are going by the other multiplier I came up with.

The tricky part is that I think Complete SSB held its own against Merged Zamasu, but Merged Zamasu seemed weaker in the manga than in the anime.

I think the strongest person Gogeta could beat would be ROF Golden Freeza, but I have doubts about anyone stronger.


Hypothetical Cooler (movie 5, golden form) vs SS3 Gotenks (Boo Arc)

[dragon boss z]

Manga versions
base Kale vs base Black
base Kale vs current base Goku

[GreatSaiyaman123]

(Tenshinhan vs Kururin) Buu Arc

Kuririn wins. Not only he's stronger than Tenshinhan, but he's also a much more skilled fighter.

SSJ2 Vegeta Buu Arc vs SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games

Vegeta was eager to fight against Gohan without knowing he was weakened, and he also strongly implied he was stronger than him twice on Babidi's ship. Vegeta has this IMO.

Manga versions
base Kale vs base Black
base Kale vs current base Goku

Kale loses both rounds IMO. She isn't very impressive without her version of LSSJ.

[dragon boss z]

Kale loses both rounds IMO. She isn't very impressive without her version of LSSJ.

She seems to be a bit above ssj Caulifla.

[theherodjl]

Kaio vs Enma & Raditz.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaio vs Enma & Raditz.

Kaio is skilled enough that he could solo them both at the same time.

She seems to be a bit above ssj Caulifla.

Does she? Her only feats consist of taking people off guard.

[Zamasu55]

Kaio vs Enma & Raditz.

Kaio is skilled enough that he could solo them both at the same time.

She seems to be a bit above ssj Caulifla.

Does she? Her only feats consist of taking people off guard.

Freeza said her attacks were stronger than Caulifla's.