The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Roronoa-pt]

New ones
Ikari trunks Vs base toppo
Current Piccolo Vs ssj2 caulifla

New one but equal Power levels
Dyspo Vs buuhan
17 Vs f.zamasu

Super Vs gt special
Hit Vs Omega shenron
Golden freeza Vs Nova shenron
Ssj4 gogeta Vs ssjb vegito no time limit for both

Ikari Trunks was able to destroy an injured Merged Zamasu, who was able to fight with Vegetto Blue. Toppo loses.
Piccolo is above SSJ2 Gohan, he's strong enough to train with Ultimate Gohan, besides he's a lot smarter and more experienced than Caulifla, he wins with low difficulty.

Buuhan gets this, way better arsenal of techniques plus regeneration and absorving abilities.
Future Zamasu is immortal. He wins.

GT, pass.


New fights:

Chaozu & Yamcha vs Ganos ( transformed )
Chaozu vs the girl who used KI weapons.
Yamcha vs the blind fox who fought against Kuririn.

[LowRyder2005]

New ones
Ikari trunks Vs base toppo
Current Piccolo Vs ssj2 caulifla

New one but equal Power levels
Dyspo Vs buuhan
17 Vs f.zamasu

Super Vs gt special
Hit Vs Omega shenron
Golden freeza Vs Nova shenron
Ssj4 gogeta Vs ssjb vegito no time limit for both

- Is base Toppo supposed to be the one who faces Goku before they both power-up? I'm not sure about who would win.
- I have Caulifla substantially stronger, mostly for the fact that I think the regular, non-Ultimate, Gohan's strength is still quite feeble compared to his Cell Game self.

- At normal power levels Dyspo would win; even if Dyspo was able to keep his speed, Buuhan has far too much durability and stamina. He'd eventually absorb him or tire him out.
- The theme is "infinity energy" vs. "infinite health"? I'm one of those guys who thinks Zamas wasn't really strong either here or in the future, but who also doesn't think #17 is more than Z's SS3-ish tier. #17 still defeats him easily unless Zamas is immortal and cannot be BFR'd/incapacitated: great edge in raw power, infinite stamina and better techniques. Otherwise, Zamas chips away his health by fighting him for some centuries.
- Interesting fight. I think Omega wins or has at the very least a massive, massive edge in power, being over ten times stronger than a Syn, who's about as strong as a Super Saiyan 4 with the compounded experience of the entirity of GT. I could definitely see Hit pulling a win without realying on brute strength, but Omega has incredible regeneration. He should win.
- Freeza wins in a no-contest, to me. I'd have non-Golden Freeza and Nuova more evenly matched.
- I have Vegito Blue around a whopping ten times stronger than Gogeta, but I follow the assumption he's overall much stronger than the Hakaishin: Vegito snatches the sceptre of strongest fusion in the franchise.

Chaozu & Yamcha vs Ganos ( transformed )
Chaozu vs the girl who used KI weapons.
Yamcha vs the blind fox who fought against Kuririn.

- I think Yamcha - unless he was too rusty now - could easily beat Ganos by himself if the two don't somehow drag the fight on. Regarding Chiaotzu, well, he can apparently bind base Goku (!) with telekinesis nowadays. So Chiaotzu binds Ganos, and Yamcha can probably proceed to beat him up for good before he gets too strong for them.
- Chiaotzu can probably use the telekinesis to stop her, but unless he can kill her that way... wait, can he? I mean, couldn't he stop her breathing or something? Seriously, I'm starting to think Chiaotzu would have saved the day in Z against almost anyone for those people who follow a one-base approach that takes Goku for always stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Still, Cawai is either gruesomely assassinated or she eventually defeats Chiaotzu the moment the telekinesis stops.
- Majora should have this in the bag: he and Krillin seemed evenly matched, almost surely more than what Yamcha could hope to be.

[dragon boss z]

New ones
Ikari trunks Vs base toppo
Current Piccolo Vs ssj2 caulifla

New one but equal Power levels
Dyspo Vs buuhan
17 Vs f.zamasu

Super Vs gt special
Hit Vs Omega shenron
Golden freeza Vs Nova shenron
Ssj4 gogeta Vs ssjb vegito no time limit for both

Ikari Trunks was able to destroy an injured Merged Zamasu, who was able to fight with Vegetto Blue. Toppo loses.

He needed energy from others to do that.

drugged basil runs a gaunlet
1.super perfect cell
2.ssj2 teen gohan
3.ssj2 goku
4.majin vegeta
drugged form wont wear off

Going by the Exhibition Tournament he should stop at round 3. Going by the Tournament of Power he clears without the drug.

Vegetto (Buu Arc) vs Trio De Dangers

Vegetto has no time limit.
Trio De Dangers aren't being distracted/coached by Kaioshin Rou.

Going by the Exhibition Tournament Vegetto one shots Basil and Lavenda before being put down by Bergamo. Going by the Tournament of Power any of the Trio stomp Vegetto.

Ganos (transformed) vs... (In no real order)

Tao Pai Pai
Young Piccolo Daimao
Movie 1 Garlic Jr (No immortality)
Raditz
Jium
Roselle
Nappa
Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Dr. Uiro
Pui Pui
Oozaru Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Zarbon
Guldo
Recoome
Captain Ginyu (No body swap)
Freeza's 1st form (Namek Saga)
Piccolo (After fusing with Nail)
Freeza's 3rd form (Namek saga)
Freeza's 4th form (Namek saga)
#19
Dr. Gero
SSj Future Trunks


How far does he go?

Ganos clears. Roshi believed that he could become a threat to Goku and the others during the tournament.

1. I doubt Basil is any stronger in the ToP than he was than during the exhibition match, and if he was it wasn't by much.

2. Ganos was getting trashed by a skinny Roshi. Roshi making a statement about Ganos possibly becoming stronger later on doesn't change anything. Feats>statements, and that statement was only talking about the future. Ganos gets one shot by first form Namek Frieza and would probably lose to any of the ginyu force.

[Roronoa-pt]

New ones
Ikari trunks Vs base toppo
Current Piccolo Vs ssj2 caulifla

New one but equal Power levels
Dyspo Vs buuhan
17 Vs f.zamasu

Super Vs gt special
Hit Vs Omega shenron
Golden freeza Vs Nova shenron
Ssj4 gogeta Vs ssjb vegito no time limit for both

Ikari Trunks was able to destroy an injured Merged Zamasu, who was able to fight with Vegetto Blue. Toppo loses.

He needed energy from others to do that.

drugged basil runs a gaunlet
1.super perfect cell
2.ssj2 teen gohan
3.ssj2 goku
4.majin vegeta
drugged form wont wear off

Going by the Exhibition Tournament he should stop at round 3. Going by the Tournament of Power he clears without the drug.

Vegetto (Buu Arc) vs Trio De Dangers

Vegetto has no time limit.
Trio De Dangers aren't being distracted/coached by Kaioshin Rou.

Going by the Exhibition Tournament Vegetto one shots Basil and Lavenda before being put down by Bergamo. Going by the Tournament of Power any of the Trio stomp Vegetto.

Ganos (transformed) vs... (In no real order)

Tao Pai Pai
Young Piccolo Daimao
Movie 1 Garlic Jr (No immortality)
Raditz
Jium
Roselle
Nappa
Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Dr. Uiro
Pui Pui
Oozaru Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Zarbon
Guldo
Recoome
Captain Ginyu (No body swap)
Freeza's 1st form (Namek Saga)
Piccolo (After fusing with Nail)
Freeza's 3rd form (Namek saga)
Freeza's 4th form (Namek saga)
#19
Dr. Gero
SSj Future Trunks


How far does he go?

Ganos clears. Roshi believed that he could become a threat to Goku and the others during the tournament.

1. I doubt Basil is any stronger in the ToP than he was than during the exhibition match, and if he was it wasn't by much.

2. Ganos was getting trashed by a skinny Roshi. Roshi making a statement about Ganos possibly becoming stronger later on doesn't change anything. Feats>statements, and that statement was only talking about the future. Ganos gets one shot by first form Namek Frieza and would probably lose to any of the ginyu force.

Ikari Trunks isn't the one with the Genki sword ?

[LowRyder2005]

Ikari Trunks was able to destroy an injured Merged Zamasu, who was able to fight with Vegetto Blue. Toppo loses.

He needed energy from others to do that.

Going by the Exhibition Tournament he should stop at round 3. Going by the Tournament of Power he clears without the drug.



Going by the Exhibition Tournament Vegetto one shots Basil and Lavenda before being put down by Bergamo. Going by the Tournament of Power any of the Trio stomp Vegetto.


Ganos clears. Roshi believed that he could become a threat to Goku and the others during the tournament.

1. I doubt Basil is any stronger in the ToP than he was than during the exhibition match, and if he was it wasn't by much.

2. Ganos was getting trashed by a skinny Roshi. Roshi making a statement about Ganos possibly becoming stronger later on doesn't change anything. Feats>statements, and that statement was only talking about the future. Ganos gets one shot by first form Namek Frieza and would probably lose to any of the ginyu force.

Ikari Trunks isn't the one with the Genki sword ?

"Ikari" is the transformation with the blue and yellow aura and occasional lack of pupils.

[apex_pretador]

Ribanne = SS Vegeta = #17 >> Base Goku = Fit buu > Fat buu

I could understand the arbitrary placings of base Goku, Fit and Fat Buu even though no real comparison can be drawn (especially between Fit/ Fat), but you honestly think #17 is equal to Super Saiyan Vegeta?

Ribanne's fights against #17 and Super Saiyan vegeta puts them on equal footing. And yes, I do think that this is a proper place for #17, not a fight against "krillin is pushing my SSB Kamehameha back" Goku or "my hands are tingling, master roshi is so powerful" Goku.

Ganos (transformed) vs... (In no real order)

Tao Pai Pai
Young Piccolo Daimao
Movie 1 Garlic Jr (No immortality)
Raditz
Jium
Roselle
Nappa
Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Dr. Uiro
Pui Pui
Oozaru Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Zarbon
Guldo
Recoome
Captain Ginyu (No body swap)
Freeza's 1st form (Namek Saga)
Piccolo (After fusing with Nail)
Freeza's 3rd form (Namek saga)
Freeza's 4th form (Namek saga)
#19
Dr. Gero
SSj Future Trunks


How far does he go?

Take it however you will, I have Roshi above even Yamcha now, and in buff form, above even Tien, who is about as strong as a suppressed captain Ginyu. However, Roshi, even when not going buff, was manhandling Ganos. Sure, he was "faster and stronger", I don't think Ganos is above Tien.
Recoome takes this after a solid fight.

Oh, and Ozaroo Vegeta steps on him.

New ones
Ikari trunks Vs base toppo
Current Piccolo Vs ssj2 caulifla

New one but equal Power levels
Dyspo Vs buuhan
17 Vs f.zamasu

Super Vs gt special
Hit Vs Omega shenron
Golden freeza Vs Nova shenron
Ssj4 gogeta Vs ssjb vegito no time limit for both

Trunks takes this 10/10

The only thing Toppo has done so far is overpower SS Goku and put him in a hold, and got blown off by SSB. Many people have done that.
Sure Toppo is impressive by statements "I wasn't sure about beating him in blue". By feats, he has punched murischim and magetta doing nothing, blasted base goku when he was off guard doing nothing etc. However, SSI Trunks at some moments matched and overpowered black.

I don't think Piccolo is on SS2 Caulifla's level yet. He is about base saiyans level, who are at SS Caulifla's level, but SS2 Cauli beats him decently.

Hit time skips and smashes the puny dragon.

Golden Freeza knocked out SSB Goku in one punch, goodbye Nova

Vegetto isn't even needed. Blue Goku will get the job done.

New fights:

Chaozu & Yamcha vs Ganos ( transformed )
Chaozu vs the girl who used KI weapons.
Yamcha vs the blind fox who fought against Kuririn.

Roshi is now stronger than Chiaotzu and maybe Yamcha too. They don't have the skill of Roshi either. They lose.
Give Yamcha a month to train and get back in shape and skill, and then he and Chiaotzu might be able to beat him. But they will both die anyways.

Chiaotzu dies.

If he was proving too much for Krillin, then what hope Yamcha has?

[pacz360]

Ribanne = SS Vegeta = #17 >> Base Goku = Fit buu > Fat buu

I could understand the arbitrary placings of base Goku, Fit and Fat Buu even though no real comparison can be drawn (especially between Fit/ Fat), but you honestly think #17 is equal to Super Saiyan Vegeta?

Ribanne's fights against #17 and Super Saiyan vegeta puts them on equal footing. And yes, I do think that this is a proper place for #17, not a fight against "krillin is pushing my SSB Kamehameha back" Goku or "my hands are tingling, master roshi is so powerful" Goku.

Ganos (transformed) vs... (In no real order)

Tao Pai Pai
Young Piccolo Daimao
Movie 1 Garlic Jr (No immortality)
Raditz
Jium
Roselle
Nappa
Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Dr. Uiro
Pui Pui
Oozaru Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Zarbon
Guldo
Recoome
Captain Ginyu (No body swap)
Freeza's 1st form (Namek Saga)
Piccolo (After fusing with Nail)
Freeza's 3rd form (Namek saga)
Freeza's 4th form (Namek saga)
#19
Dr. Gero
SSj Future Trunks


How far does he go?

Take it however you will, I have Roshi above even Yamcha now, and in buff form, above even Tien, who is about as strong as a suppressed captain Ginyu. However, Roshi, even when not going buff, was manhandling Ganos. Sure, he was "faster and stronger", I don't think Ganos is above Tien.
Recoome takes this after a solid fight.

Oh, and Ozaroo Vegeta steps on him.

New ones
Ikari trunks Vs base toppo
Current Piccolo Vs ssj2 caulifla

New one but equal Power levels
Dyspo Vs buuhan
17 Vs f.zamasu

Super Vs gt special
Hit Vs Omega shenron
Golden freeza Vs Nova shenron
Ssj4 gogeta Vs ssjb vegito no time limit for both

Trunks takes this 10/10

The only thing Toppo has done so far is overpower SS Goku and put him in a hold, and got blown off by SSB. Many people have done that.
Sure Toppo is impressive by statements "I wasn't sure about beating him in blue". By feats, he has punched murischim and magetta doing nothing, blasted base goku when he was off guard doing nothing etc. However, SSI Trunks at some moments matched and overpowered black.

I don't think Piccolo is on SS2 Caulifla's level yet. He is about base saiyans level, who are at SS Caulifla's level, but SS2 Cauli beats him decently.

Hit time skips and smashes the puny dragon.

Golden Freeza knocked out SSB Goku in one punch, goodbye Nova

Vegetto isn't even needed. Blue Goku will get the job done.

New fights:

Chaozu & Yamcha vs Ganos ( transformed )
Chaozu vs the girl who used KI weapons.
Yamcha vs the blind fox who fought against Kuririn.

Roshi is now stronger than Chiaotzu and maybe Yamcha too. They don't have the skill of Roshi either. They lose.
Give Yamcha a month to train and get back in shape and skill, and then he and Chiaotzu might be able to beat him. But they will both die anyways.

Chiaotzu dies.

If he was proving too much for Krillin, then what hope Yamcha has?

Ribrianne was no where serious fighting ssj Vegeta unlike with 17
17 situation that's puts him blue level is far different than krillin who almost got killed by suppressed ssjb Goku and roshi who base Goku stomped with ease 17 was beginning to stomp ssj Goku until went immediately to blue even stating to 17 didn't think I have to use this form and 17 isn't a idiot considering he can tell if Goku was holding back on him
Toppo traded blows with ssjb Goku and tanked his Kamehameha with ease
Not to mention he was pissed that his suit was torn than any bruises

[supercat]

Ribrianne vs. Buu (current)

Ribrianne one-shots all forms of Buu. Even SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) would be a mere fodder here.

A serious Ribrianne was able to keep up with Android 17, who although had a slight advantage, didn't appear completely superior in terms of power. I do believe Android 17 wasn't quite at full power, so it's possible that he's far stronger.

When Ribrianne was fighting SSJ Vegetta, she didn't appear anywhere near as serious when she fought Android 17. This could also be backed up by the fact that a heavily suppressed Android 17 absolutely wrecked SSJ Goku before proving to be more than a match for a suppressed SSB Goku.

I don't see how some people would say that Android 17 = SSJ Vegeta based on the Ribrianne fight when clearly, Ribrianne was using different levels of power and clearly, a suppressed Android 17 has shown that he could easily wreck the new-and-improved Super Saiayns while holding his own against SSB Goku.

Buu is seriously a joke at this point in terms of power compared to some of these mid to top-tier contenders.

SSB Goku / Vegeta > Android 17 > / = Ribrianne >>>> Ribrianne (not serious) = SSJ Goku / Vegeta >> Base Goku / Vegeta > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

SSB Goku / Vegeta: 1,000
Android 17: 900
Ribrianne: 850
Ribrianne (not serious): 35
SSJ Goku / Vegeta: 35
Base Goku / Vegeta: 0.7
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 0.3
Buuhan: 0.1
Buutenks: < 0.1
Super Buu: too low to fit this power scale
Mr. Buu: should we even bother?

[dragon boss z]

Ribrianne vs. Buu (current)

Ribrianne one-shots all forms of Buu. Even SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) would be a mere fodder here.

A serious Ribrianne was able to keep up with Android 17, who although had a slight advantage, didn't appear completely superior in terms of power. I do believe Android 17 wasn't quite at full power, so it's possible that he's far stronger.

When Ribrianne was fighting SSJ Vegetta, she didn't appear anywhere near as serious when she fought Android 17. This could also be backed up by the fact that a heavily suppressed Android 17 absolutely wrecked SSJ Goku before proving to be more than a match for a suppressed SSB Goku.

I don't see how some people would say that Android 17 = SSJ Vegeta based on the Ribrianne fight when clearly, Ribrianne was using different levels of power and clearly, a suppressed Android 17 has shown that he could easily wreck the new-and-improved Super Saiayns while holding his own against SSB Goku.

Buu is seriously a joke at this point in terms of power compared to some of these mid to top-tier contenders.

SSB Goku / Vegeta > Android 17 > / = Ribrianne >>>> Ribrianne (not serious) = SSJ Goku / Vegeta >> Base Goku / Vegeta > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

SSB Goku / Vegeta: 1,000
Android 17: 900
Ribrianne: 850
Ribrianne (not serious): 35
SSJ Goku / Vegeta: 35
Base Goku / Vegeta: 0.7
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 0.3
Buuhan: 0.1
Buutenks: < 0.1
Super Buu: too low to fit this power scale
Mr. Buu: should we even bother?

I highly doubt 17 is even close to what you are making him out to be. I don't think base Goku and Vegeta are that strong either. They were having trouble with the drio de danger all of which besides bergamo are weaker than Mr. Buu.

[supercat]

Ribrianne vs. Buu (current)

Ribrianne one-shots all forms of Buu. Even SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) would be a mere fodder here.

A serious Ribrianne was able to keep up with Android 17, who although had a slight advantage, didn't appear completely superior in terms of power. I do believe Android 17 wasn't quite at full power, so it's possible that he's far stronger.

When Ribrianne was fighting SSJ Vegetta, she didn't appear anywhere near as serious when she fought Android 17. This could also be backed up by the fact that a heavily suppressed Android 17 absolutely wrecked SSJ Goku before proving to be more than a match for a suppressed SSB Goku.

I don't see how some people would say that Android 17 = SSJ Vegeta based on the Ribrianne fight when clearly, Ribrianne was using different levels of power and clearly, a suppressed Android 17 has shown that he could easily wreck the new-and-improved Super Saiayns while holding his own against SSB Goku.

Buu is seriously a joke at this point in terms of power compared to some of these mid to top-tier contenders.

SSB Goku / Vegeta > Android 17 > / = Ribrianne >>>> Ribrianne (not serious) = SSJ Goku / Vegeta >> Base Goku / Vegeta > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

SSB Goku / Vegeta: 1,000
Android 17: 900
Ribrianne: 850
Ribrianne (not serious): 35
SSJ Goku / Vegeta: 35
Base Goku / Vegeta: 0.7
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 0.3
Buuhan: 0.1
Buutenks: < 0.1
Super Buu: too low to fit this power scale
Mr. Buu: should we even bother?

I highly doubt 17 is even close to what you are making him out to be. I don't think base Goku and Vegeta are that strong either. They were having trouble with the drio de danger all of which besides bergamo are weaker than Mr. Buu.

So a suppressed Android 17 keeping up with a suppressed SSB Goku, with Goku showing signs that he was exerting more effort doesn't mean much then I suppose. It's funny how Buu fans think Buu is still relevant at this point.

As I've said in other posts, the Buu hype makes the Broly hype seem like nothing more than humble modesty.

I notice that every now and then when I post something regarding power, you chime in with a load of downplaying which I have no interest in hearing or debating about. How about we just agree to disagree?

And I would hardly consider Goku and Vegeta struggling against the Trio De Danger. SSB Goku apparently showed just as much exertion against Android 17. Not to mention his SSJ form was absolutely wrecked. Oh and have you forgotten a suppressed Base Goku was able to contend with Slim Buu? Yeah, this is the same Goku, whose SSJ form was completely outclassed by Android 17 and his suppressed SSB form wasn't able to show anything beyond being on par with a suppressed Android 17. So how exactly does that make Buu look good against Android 17? It doesn't. And with that I am done with this discussion.

[Noah]

- Strongest character Dr. Rota Hermilla can beat?

[dragon boss z]

So a suppressed Android 17 keeping up with a suppressed SSB Goku, with Goku showing signs that he was exerting more effort doesn't mean much then I suppose.

There are different writers for every episode and they all have different opinions on character power. I want to wait and see more from 17 before making a judgement, but he had some trouble with one of the magical girls and Goku was fighting one of the other ones in his base. 17 also fought an opponent 18 was fighting. If he was blue level logically he should one shot anyone who has a problem with 18.

It's funny how Buu fans think Buu is still relevant at this point.

I'm not even a Buu fan, but your comments lead me to believe you are a Buu hater. Or you just think everyone keep getting exponentially stronger even though that clearly isn't the case.

I also find it funny how Roshi, 18, Krillin, and Tien are all clearly relevant and yet they are all weaker than Buu. Besides 18 they are arguably all weaker than first form namek saga Frieza. And Buu defeated an amped Basil, so I don't see how he isn't relevant. He isn't Goku/Vegeta/Frieza relevant, but he is at least as relevant as Piccolo is.

As I've said in other posts, the Buu hype makes the Broly hype seem like nothing more than humble modesty.

Buu is practically immortal, can turn people to candy, absorb them, and has ripped wholes through dimensions by screaming. I would say his hype is warranted to a certain extent. He would beat most people in the ToP. The only ones who would beat him from what I've seen (not including U7) are Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Ribrianne, Hit, and Kale.

I notice that every now and then when I post something regarding power, you chime in with a load of downplaying which I have no interest in hearing or debating about. How about we just agree to disagree?

This is a forum for debating, and when you post it comes off as "I'm right, you're wrong, so yes I am going to reply. If you just said "these are my opinions" that would be one thing, but you are saying "I don't see how people can thing 17=ssj Vegeta" and "Buu is seriously a joke".

And I would hardly consider Goku and Vegeta struggling against the Trio De Danger.

Base Goku was having problems in a 3v1. So at the very least 3 fat Buus would challenge base Goku.

Oh and have you forgotten a suppressed Base Goku was able to contend with Slim Buu?

Yet you have base Goku 7 time stronger than Buuhan, and Buuhan is logically stronger than slim Buu.

Yeah, this is the same Goku, whose SSJ form was completely outclassed by Android 17 and his suppressed SSB form wasn't able to show anything beyond being on par with a suppressed Android 17. So how exactly does that make Buu look good against Android 17? It doesn't. And with that I am done with this discussion.

Androids 17 may be around ssj2-3 Goku level no, but he would still have a hard time taking down Buu due to his regen. Like I said, I'll need to wait and see more. A lot of people are jumping the gun saying 17 and Gohan are Blue level. Same with Kale being above Blue level. 17 may be Blue level, and Kale may be above blue level, but I want to wait and see more first. Goku always holds back. I won't be surprised if Kale ends up getting stomped by Golden Frieza, and I doubt 17 will be anywhere near as big a player as Frieza later on.

[dragon boss z]

- Strongest character Dr. Rota Hermilla can beat?

Tien

But I think he could maybe take the ginyu force out in a 1v1 idk. I don't see him taking out Frieza or the androids unless he snipes them. In a direct confrontation he seems pretty weak.

[LowRyder2005]

Ribrianne one-shots all forms of Buu. Even SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) would be a mere fodder here.

A serious Ribrianne was able to keep up with Android 17, who although had a slight advantage, didn't appear completely superior in terms of power. I do believe Android 17 wasn't quite at full power, so it's possible that he's far stronger.

When Ribrianne was fighting SSJ Vegetta, she didn't appear anywhere near as serious when she fought Android 17. This could also be backed up by the fact that a heavily suppressed Android 17 absolutely wrecked SSJ Goku before proving to be more than a match for a suppressed SSB Goku.

I don't see how some people would say that Android 17 = SSJ Vegeta based on the Ribrianne fight when clearly, Ribrianne was using different levels of power and clearly, a suppressed Android 17 has shown that he could easily wreck the new-and-improved Super Saiayns while holding his own against SSB Goku.

Buu is seriously a joke at this point in terms of power compared to some of these mid to top-tier contenders.

SSB Goku / Vegeta > Android 17 > / = Ribrianne >>>> Ribrianne (not serious) = SSJ Goku / Vegeta >> Base Goku / Vegeta > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

SSB Goku / Vegeta: 1,000
Android 17: 900
Ribrianne: 850
Ribrianne (not serious): 35
SSJ Goku / Vegeta: 35
Base Goku / Vegeta: 0.7
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 0.3
Buuhan: 0.1
Buutenks: < 0.1
Super Buu: too low to fit this power scale
Mr. Buu: should we even bother?

I highly doubt 17 is even close to what you are making him out to be. I don't think base Goku and Vegeta are that strong either. They were having trouble with the drio de danger all of which besides bergamo are weaker than Mr. Buu.

So a suppressed Android 17 keeping up with a suppressed SSB Goku, with Goku showing signs that he was exerting more effort doesn't mean much then I suppose. It's funny how Buu fans think Buu is still relevant at this point.

As I've said in other posts, the Buu hype makes the Broly hype seem like nothing more than humble modesty.

I notice that every now and then when I post something regarding power, you chime in with a load of downplaying which I have no interest in hearing or debating about. How about we just agree to disagree?

And I would hardly consider Goku and Vegeta struggling against the Trio De Danger. SSB Goku apparently showed just as much exertion against Android 17. Not to mention his SSJ form was absolutely wrecked. Oh and have you forgotten a suppressed Base Goku was able to contend with Slim Buu? Yeah, this is the same Goku, whose SSJ form was completely outclassed by Android 17 and his suppressed SSB form wasn't able to show anything beyond being on par with a suppressed Android 17. So how exactly does that make Buu look good against Android 17? It doesn't. And with that I am done with this discussion.

I'm afraid it's not a matter of "agreeing to disagree" with him as much as the fact that your presumptions are, almost surely, just plain incorrect.

Ultimate Gohan *from Z* is already made to be stronger than the current base Goku, since the current Super Saiyan Gohan can keep up with Super Saiyan Goku. Suppressed or not, it goes without saying that Super Saiyan Goku needs to be equal or higher than the full strength of Goku's base.
Later on, both Piccolo and Goku directly state that Gohan is also weaker than what they remembered or that he's not on par with his "original strength" (later clarified to be "the power he used when he had faced Buu").

There's simply no way the base form is stronger than Gohan-Buu, who's literally "Ultimate Gohan + something else", if Super Saiyan Gohan alone - whose power range can only go from weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Buu arc to weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc - is enough to be above base Goku.

[supercat]

I highly doubt 17 is even close to what you are making him out to be. I don't think base Goku and Vegeta are that strong either. They were having trouble with the drio de danger all of which besides bergamo are weaker than Mr. Buu.

So a suppressed Android 17 keeping up with a suppressed SSB Goku, with Goku showing signs that he was exerting more effort doesn't mean much then I suppose. It's funny how Buu fans think Buu is still relevant at this point.

As I've said in other posts, the Buu hype makes the Broly hype seem like nothing more than humble modesty.

I notice that every now and then when I post something regarding power, you chime in with a load of downplaying which I have no interest in hearing or debating about. How about we just agree to disagree?

And I would hardly consider Goku and Vegeta struggling against the Trio De Danger. SSB Goku apparently showed just as much exertion against Android 17. Not to mention his SSJ form was absolutely wrecked. Oh and have you forgotten a suppressed Base Goku was able to contend with Slim Buu? Yeah, this is the same Goku, whose SSJ form was completely outclassed by Android 17 and his suppressed SSB form wasn't able to show anything beyond being on par with a suppressed Android 17. So how exactly does that make Buu look good against Android 17? It doesn't. And with that I am done with this discussion.

I'm afraid it's not a matter of "agreeing to disagree" with him as much as the fact that your presumptions are, almost surely, just plain incorrect.

Ultimate Gohan *from Z* is already made to be stronger than the current base Goku, since the current Super Saiyan Gohan can keep up with Super Saiyan Goku. Suppressed or not, it goes without saying that Super Saiyan Goku needs to be equal or higher than the full strength of Goku's base.
Later on, both Piccolo and Goku directly state that Gohan is also weaker than what they remembered or that he's not on par with his "original strength" (later clarified to be "the power he used when he had faced Buu").

There's simply no way the base form is stronger than Gohan-Buu, who's literally "Ultimate Gohan + something else", if Super Saiyan Gohan alone - whose power range can only go from weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Buu arc to weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc - is enough to be above base Goku.

What happened to not responding to my posts?

Either way, I guess SSJ2 Goku keeping up with a new-and-improved Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much since some people like to dismiss Copy Vegeta absolutely putting SSJ3 Gotenks in his place. But oh wait, a for fun sparring match between SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan is all the more accurate way of gauging power.

I love how you use words like "no way" and "incorrect" when this is a discussion thread based on opinions and speculations gathered after going over statements and feats. Yeah, no way I'm going to waste time joining in a discussion that lacks open-mindedness.

I don't even bother reading through your pretentious overdramatic posts most of the time. Plus, since it's pretty clear we won't agree on almost anything related to power scales, why should I bother?

[dragon boss z]

Either way, I guess SSJ2 Goku keeping up with a new-and-improved Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much since some people like to dismiss Copy Vegeta absolutely putting SSJ3 Gotenks in his place. But oh wait, a for fun sparring match between SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan is all the more accurate way of gauging power.

not saying this is how it goes, but just because base Goku/Vegeta are above ssj3 Gotenks doesn't automatically mean they are far above or even at all above ultimate Gohan.
Also ssj doesn't seem to be such a big multiplier anymore.
Though I agree ssj Goku vs ssj Gohan made no sense, though Super isn't consistent at all.

[LowRyder2005]

So a suppressed Android 17 keeping up with a suppressed SSB Goku, with Goku showing signs that he was exerting more effort doesn't mean much then I suppose. It's funny how Buu fans think Buu is still relevant at this point.

As I've said in other posts, the Buu hype makes the Broly hype seem like nothing more than humble modesty.

I notice that every now and then when I post something regarding power, you chime in with a load of downplaying which I have no interest in hearing or debating about. How about we just agree to disagree?

And I would hardly consider Goku and Vegeta struggling against the Trio De Danger. SSB Goku apparently showed just as much exertion against Android 17. Not to mention his SSJ form was absolutely wrecked. Oh and have you forgotten a suppressed Base Goku was able to contend with Slim Buu? Yeah, this is the same Goku, whose SSJ form was completely outclassed by Android 17 and his suppressed SSB form wasn't able to show anything beyond being on par with a suppressed Android 17. So how exactly does that make Buu look good against Android 17? It doesn't. And with that I am done with this discussion.

I'm afraid it's not a matter of "agreeing to disagree" with him as much as the fact that your presumptions are, almost surely, just plain incorrect.

Ultimate Gohan *from Z* is already made to be stronger than the current base Goku, since the current Super Saiyan Gohan can keep up with Super Saiyan Goku. Suppressed or not, it goes without saying that Super Saiyan Goku needs to be equal or higher than the full strength of Goku's base.
Later on, both Piccolo and Goku directly state that Gohan is also weaker than what they remembered or that he's not on par with his "original strength" (later clarified to be "the power he used when he had faced Buu").

There's simply no way the base form is stronger than Gohan-Buu, who's literally "Ultimate Gohan + something else", if Super Saiyan Gohan alone - whose power range can only go from weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Buu arc to weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc - is enough to be above base Goku.

What happened to not responding to my posts?

Either way, I guess SSJ2 Gohan keeping up with a new-and-improved Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much since some people like to dismiss Copy Vegeta absolutely putting SSJ3 Gotenks in his place. But oh wait, a for fun sparring match between SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan is all the more accurate way of gauging power.

I love how you use words like "no way" and "incorrect" when this is a discussion thread based on opinions and speculations gathered after going over statements and feats. Yeah, no way I'm going to waste time debating with someone who doesn't have an open minded approach.

Given the openly provocative nature of your post(s) and their specific claims, I felt like trying to make you understand your premises don't really hold up under minimum scrutiny. Plus, I don't think they jibe that well within a post with a clear, if not a tad juvenile, "j'accuse" towards everyone who doesn't share your ideas.

With that being said, the nature of the sparring match is completely irrelevant, since it's not even tangential to my argument: Gohan needs at bare minimum to be above base Goku regardless for the mere reason base Goku transforms to face him. The consequence of your argument is that Goku (1) turns Super Saiyan (50) to increase his power and drops to below-base levels (0,1). He could've lowered his power level in base; and the reason he turned Super Saiyan was obviously not to decrease his strength.

Secondly, Goku can obviously be above SS3 Gotenks - assuming Gotenks didn't regress in power, which we're arbitrarily excluding - and inferior to Ultimate Gohan. Hence, the above is not an irrepairable contradiction. Gohan's power has already been directly stated to be inferior to that; unlike Goku not simply suppressing himself, but behaving irrationally. In any way, Gohan-Buu would simply be above base Goku in any other case.

To reiterate: yes, you are "almost surely" incorrect. If the characters are rational, which is really a natural premise whenever you discuss this kind of stuff in general, you can promptly eliminate the "almost surely".

[apex_pretador]

Base Goku was having problems in a 3v1. So at the very least 3 fat Buus would challenge base Goku.

It was implied that their "danger's triangle" made the combo more powerful than sum of the parts, i.e. more powerful than three Basils or three lavenders. Also, I believe they must have trained very hard for 40 hours and powered up a bit, atleast to about buu level.

Anyways, I don't disagree with three buu's being able to challenge goku thanks to their regeneration and stamina.

- Strongest character Dr. Rota Hermilla can beat?

If he has good distance, he can beat Base vegeta.

Ribrianne was no where serious fighting ssj Vegeta unlike with 17
17 situation that's puts him blue level is far different than krillin who almost got killed by suppressed ssjb Goku and roshi who base Goku stomped with ease 17 was beginning to stomp ssj Goku until went immediately to blue even stating to 17 didn't think I have to use this form and 17 isn't a idiot considering he can tell if Goku was holding back on him
Toppo traded blows with ssjb Goku and tanked his Kamehameha with ease
Not to mention he was pissed that his suit was torn than any bruises

Ribanne looked serious to me, just not burning with anger.
She never had even the slightest of advantage against SS vegeta. They were shown exact equals, same with #17 and Ribanne. And #17's no-nonsense attitute means it makes sense he wasn't holding back.

#18 kicked away SSB Goku's Kamehameha, and Krillin pushed it back for some time, forcing Goku to use more power, and Goku also went to SS then blue against Krillin.

Kale "tanked" his Kamehameha with ease, not toppo. Compare them side by side. And slightly weaker characters have been able to tank Goku's kamehameha before:

- Piccolo in 23rd TB
- Vegeta against kaioken x4 Goku
- Freeza (50%) against KaioKen x20 Goku (he was strong enough to rush in and punch Freeza before he could even react)
- Pieces of Freeza with no ki left vs SS Goku
- Fat Buu vs SS3 Goku
- Kale vs SSB Goku
- Hit vs KaioKen x10 SSB Goku

And even Bergamo who reached his absorption limit from SS Goku's punches, was able to resist SSBKK Goku's kamehameha.
Toppo has done nothing which even puts him on equal level to Goku / Vegeta / Freeza so far. He only has hype going for him.

And in Super, Goku has been a poor measuring stick. He goes on to go blow for blow with beerus in base (who, at his absolute minimum, was able to finger-poke-of-doom SS3 Goku, Ult Gohan and others) and forces him to power up even further, and then goes blow for blow with Master Roshi, thinking how "unbelievably strong" he is.
Then he copy vegeta absolutely murderstomps SS3 Gotenks who goku matches in base, and is even with SS Gohan in transformed state. The same SS Gohan who trais for several months, transformed into SS2 and is still weaker than Piccolo, who is at best, comparable to base Goku, and inferior to buu arc mystic gohan.

[supercat]

I'm afraid it's not a matter of "agreeing to disagree" with him as much as the fact that your presumptions are, almost surely, just plain incorrect.

Ultimate Gohan *from Z* is already made to be stronger than the current base Goku, since the current Super Saiyan Gohan can keep up with Super Saiyan Goku. Suppressed or not, it goes without saying that Super Saiyan Goku needs to be equal or higher than the full strength of Goku's base.
Later on, both Piccolo and Goku directly state that Gohan is also weaker than what they remembered or that he's not on par with his "original strength" (later clarified to be "the power he used when he had faced Buu").

There's simply no way the base form is stronger than Gohan-Buu, who's literally "Ultimate Gohan + something else", if Super Saiyan Gohan alone - whose power range can only go from weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Buu arc to weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc - is enough to be above base Goku.

What happened to not responding to my posts?

Either way, I guess SSJ2 Gohan keeping up with a new-and-improved Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much since some people like to dismiss Copy Vegeta absolutely putting SSJ3 Gotenks in his place. But oh wait, a for fun sparring match between SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan is all the more accurate way of gauging power.

I love how you use words like "no way" and "incorrect" when this is a discussion thread based on opinions and speculations gathered after going over statements and feats. Yeah, no way I'm going to waste time debating with someone who doesn't have an open minded approach.

Given the openly provocative nature of your post(s) and their specific claims, I felt like trying to make you understand your premises don't really hold up under minimum scrutiny. Plus, I don't think they jibe that well within a post with a clear, if not a tad juvenile, "j'accuse" towards everyone who doesn't share your ideas.

With that being said, the nature of the sparring match is completely irrelevant, since it's not even tangential to my argument: Gohan needs at bare minimum to be above base Goku regardless for the mere reason base Goku transforms to face him. The consequence of your argument is that Goku (1) turns Super Saiyan (50) to increase his power and drops to below-base levels (0,1). He could've lowered his power level in base; and the reason he turned Super Saiyan was obviously not to decrease his strength.

Secondly, Goku can obviously be above SS3 Gotenks - assuming Gotenks didn't regress in power, which we're arbitrarily excluding - and inferior to Ultimate Gohan. Hence, the above is not an irrepairable contradiction. Gohan's power has already been directly stated to be inferior to that; unlike Goku not simply suppressing himself, but behaving irrationally. In any way, Gohan-Buu would simply be above base Goku in any other case.

To reiterate: yes, you are "almost surely" incorrect. If the characters are rational, which is really a natural premise whenever you discuss this kind of stuff in general, you can promptly eliminate the "almost surely".

You can cut the pretentious nonsense out and still debate. There's really no harm in doing so. Plus, I would look into what some of those things you're saying actually means before throwing it around so casually. Otherwise it just sounds silly and again, pretentious. And I'm not the one who responds to every post that I disagree with a lengthy, passive aggressive blurb of jargon that most people probably barely bother skimming through, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it that disappointing to you that Buu is left behind in the dust?

So by your logic, Goku going SSJ and SSB against Krillin was because he needed to right? Let's just assume it's true and that Goku needed SSJ against Gohan and SSJ/SSB against Krillin. Where would that leave Buu? No where, since Goku kept up with an apparently new-and-improved version without even powering up. You see how open-ended that whole argument is?

You don't agree with any of the things I discuss, so why bother even debating with me, when you know I'll never agree with you?

[LowRyder2005]

What happened to not responding to my posts?

Either way, I guess SSJ2 Gohan keeping up with a new-and-improved Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much since some people like to dismiss Copy Vegeta absolutely putting SSJ3 Gotenks in his place. But oh wait, a for fun sparring match between SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan is all the more accurate way of gauging power.

I love how you use words like "no way" and "incorrect" when this is a discussion thread based on opinions and speculations gathered after going over statements and feats. Yeah, no way I'm going to waste time debating with someone who doesn't have an open minded approach.

Given the openly provocative nature of your post(s) and their specific claims, I felt like trying to make you understand your premises don't really hold up under minimum scrutiny. Plus, I don't think they jibe that well within a post with a clear, if not a tad juvenile, "j'accuse" towards everyone who doesn't share your ideas.

With that being said, the nature of the sparring match is completely irrelevant, since it's not even tangential to my argument: Gohan needs at bare minimum to be above base Goku regardless for the mere reason base Goku transforms to face him. The consequence of your argument is that Goku (1) turns Super Saiyan (50) to increase his power and drops to below-base levels (0,1). He could've lowered his power level in base; and the reason he turned Super Saiyan was obviously not to decrease his strength.

Secondly, Goku can obviously be above SS3 Gotenks - assuming Gotenks didn't regress in power, which we're arbitrarily excluding - and inferior to Ultimate Gohan. Hence, the above is not an irrepairable contradiction. Gohan's power has already been directly stated to be inferior to that; unlike Goku not simply suppressing himself, but behaving irrationally. In any way, Gohan-Buu would simply be above base Goku in any other case.

To reiterate: yes, you are "almost surely" incorrect. If the characters are rational, which is really a natural premise whenever you discuss this kind of stuff in general, you can promptly eliminate the "almost surely".

You can cut the pretentious nonsense out and still debate. There's really no harm in doing so. Plus, I would look into what some of those things you're saying actually means before throwing it around so casually. Otherwise it just sounds silly and again, pretentious. And I'm not the one who responds to every post that I disagree with a lengthy, passive aggressive blurb of jargon that most people probably barely bother skimming through, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it that disappointing to you that Buu is left behind in the dust?

So by your logic, Goku going SSJ and SSB against Krillin was because he needed to right? You see how open-ended that whole argument is?

The episode of Krillin vs. Goku already gives you a clear reason: Goku went Blue against Krillin because he wanted to show off the form and test Krillin's resolve. Plus, we already have additional evidence that clarifies that Krillin can't even fight against base Gohan in the very episode; Goku's going Blue and lowering is power is easily inferrable and a way to solve what would otherwise be a contradiction.

Unless you have evidence that gives Goku a clear narrative or logical reason to do the same against Gohan, however, it's just counter-intuitive - other than technically baseless - to argue that Goku turned Super Saiyan for similar reasons.
Furthermore, since Gohan's and Goku's feats also bodes well with Buu defeating an opponent Goku can't exactly fingerpoke, it only makes your argument that Goku needs to astonishly higher than Buu and Basil even more of a backbreaking labor. The intent of the writers is pretty easy to deduce: even if Gohan is not as strong as Goku, he can at least keep up with the current Super Saiyan Goku.

Besides, if you want to veer towards a "this case simply doesn't make sense" conclusion, one may as well go and state the same for Gotenks vs. Vegeta -- that one is the outlier, because everything else is much easier to reconcile.

P.S. I only see a load of passive-aggressiveness and in your posts; while trying to lead your interlocutor into some more petty "pot meet kettle" jab is a remarkable tactic to try and troll whoever is opposing your argument, it usually works well only if you add actual substance to your posts in the form of a logical argument. In turn, it's barely effective when anyone who's reading this exchange will inevitably get the impression you're the one getting increasingly flustered.