The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[FNF]

I mean, seriously, is it just people refusing to accept that scaredy-cat wuss Kaioushin is stronger than awesome front-runner Piccolo? My favourite character's Piccolo (as you can see from my username), but I doesn't mean that I'm going to let it blind me from what that statement (yes, I'm taking the context into account as well) is clearly presenting: that Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. And why not? Would it really be that bad for Kaioushin to be stronger than Piccolo?

If you think I'm biased you're sadly mistaken. If you took the time to read over one of my previous posts properly you would realize I actually used to laugh at people who thought Piccolo>Kaioshin. It's only recently that I realized 'hang on! There isn't really anything proving Kaioshin>Piccolo here' because let's be honest, there is only one statement that suggests Kaioshin>Piccolo yet there are quite a lot which suggest the opposite. I actually think Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans because there is even a title page where Kaioshin is standing in awe of base Vegeta, Gohan and Goku. Kaioshin, as the story states, wasn't all he was cracked up to be.

[dprez]

Kaioshin is Ssj2 tier? No way jose.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Dabra and Bobbodi actually may not know Kaioushin's abilities, or at least even the full extent of it. Kaioushin only ever fought his father, Bibbidi, and Bobbodi was just carrying on his work. Like Pui Pui, Kaioushin was afraid of Yakon because of his reputation (and you can't know everything about a person just from their reputation) and he was cautious of anyone associated with Bobbodi and Boo, as they had previously killed his older and stronger comrades, so Kaioushin knows how powerful Bobbodi's magic is and the kind of unpredictable underlings he could possess.

And I don't know you can say that Yakon's stronger than Kaioushin, yet base Gokuu isn't stronger than Kaioushin. That doesn't make any sense.

I never said Base Goku isn't stronger than Kaioshin. I pretty much said I just don't know. It's true they may have not known Kaioshin's power, but still, as easily as Kibito was one-shotted by Dabura, who is Kaioshin body-guard after all, they must know that Kaioshin would not be able to handle Yakon, and they even included three 3 saiyans after Pui-Pui was decimated.

OK then, my mistake. But you still said that you're unsure on base Goku's strength. And I don't think it was ever stated that Kibito is Kaioushin's bodyguard (he's much weaker than him anyway), just that he's his assistant. He's what Mr. Popo is to the God of Earth.

I mean, seriously, is it just people refusing to accept that scaredy-cat wuss Kaioushin is stronger than awesome front-runner Piccolo? My favourite character's Piccolo (as you can see from my username), but I doesn't mean that I'm going to let it blind me from what that statement (yes, I'm taking the context into account as well) is clearly presenting: that Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. And why not? Would it really be that bad for Kaioushin to be stronger than Piccolo?

If you missed it, I did say that I think Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo.

I wasn't necessarily talking to just you, just "Piccolo > Kaioushin" believers in general.

I mean, seriously, is it just people refusing to accept that scaredy-cat wuss Kaioushin is stronger than awesome front-runner Piccolo? My favourite character's Piccolo (as you can see from my username), but I doesn't mean that I'm going to let it blind me from what that statement (yes, I'm taking the context into account as well) is clearly presenting: that Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. And why not? Would it really be that bad for Kaioushin to be stronger than Piccolo?

If you think I'm biased you're sadly mistaken. If you took the time to read over one of my previous posts properly you would realize I actually used to laugh at people who thought Piccolo>Kaioshin. It's only recently that I realized 'hang on! There isn't really anything proving Kaioshin>Piccolo here' because let's be honest, there is only one statement that suggests Kaioshin>Piccolo yet there are quite a lot which suggest the opposite. I actually think Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans because there is even a title page where Kaioshin is standing in awe of base Vegeta, Gohan and Goku. Kaioshin, as the story states, wasn't all he was cracked up to be.

Again, perhaps I should've clarified that I was talking to "Piccolo > Kaioushin" believers in general. Although I understand that I probably came off as quite uppity.

You know what, I actually don't have a problem with those choosing to believe that Piccolo's stronger than Kaioushin, or some other relatively reasonable opinion concerning Boo arc powers, because the Boo arc is written so poorly (arguably moreso than even the Cell arc) with all its inconsistencies, plotholes, contradictions and bullshit power-scaling that I can't blame people for being confused and/or thinking that base Goku may've miraculously become stronger than Piccolo. But I tend to just ignore them or think up my own explanations for them, and just go with whatever makes most sense.

I guess you could compare it to how some people like to ignore certain statements from GT and believe that base Gokuu actually isn't all that strong or that Super Baby 2 isn't stronger than Super Vegetto (or whatever that line was). Because if you do try to twist all the contradictory statements into making some semblance of sense, then you end up with a whacked-out power scale that you have to step back, look at it and think, "That doesn't look right."

[dprez]

I actually think Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans because there is even a title page where Kaioshin is standing in awe of base Vegeta, Gohan and Goku. Kaioshin, as the story states, wasn't all he was cracked up to be.

Hmmm, interesting. I used to believe the exact same thing, but then I thought there was no way the saiyans could fight Piccolo without Ssj, so I just put Piccolo ahead of all of them like this, Piccolo > Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Yakon > Kaioshin > Base Gohan. I'm torn right now, but having Piccolo stronger than the base saiyans, as well as Kaioshin makes sense to me. I mean, how the hell can Kaioshin be stronger than Piccolo if the saiyans are possibly even stronger than Kaioshin in base. It's a conundrum I tell you. Makes sense for the opinions on this matter to differ so.

It's almost as if having Kaioshin > Piccolo means the base saiyans must be powerful as hell, and having Piccolo stronger than Kaioshn put's everyone's power back into perspective, as none of the saiyans would have power that is unheard of for just their base forms. I just like the idea of the base saiyans being awesome, and their is evidence suggesting they are but...

...Kaioshin > Piccolo > all base saiyans may just be the truth...and Kaioshin really is just a pansy who is terribly afraid of Boo and Babidi's minions and magic...

[Fox666]

My favourite character's Piccolo (as you can see from my username), but I doesn't mean that I'm going to let it blind me from what that statement (yes, I'm taking the context into account as well) is clearly presenting: that Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. And why not? Would it really be that bad for Kaioushin to be stronger than Piccolo?

Kibito is just an assistant, not a body-guard. Besides Daizenshuu 7 seems to include some rare very specific information regarding his strength: "His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan."

Not to mention that should imply that the saiyans shouldn't be able to do anything against Kaioshin in their regular form.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I just like to believe that Kaioushin is just afraid and/or cautious of anyone associated with Bobbodi and Boo, and he pretty much loses all intelligence when he's confronted with an "M". Not to mention that he's not the smartest tool in the box generally, either. I mean, he actually believed that Gohan could defeat Boo just by swinging around some bullshit legendary sword for a while. I thought a Kaioushin should know better than to believe in silly little legends meant for beings of the lower world. Then again, that can be attributed to his naivety in youth.

That makes things far easier to deal with, rather than trying to reconcile all the contradictory statements into making some semblance of sense.

My favourite character's Piccolo (as you can see from my username), but I doesn't mean that I'm going to let it blind me from what that statement (yes, I'm taking the context into account as well) is clearly presenting: that Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo. And why not? Would it really be that bad for Kaioushin to be stronger than Piccolo?

Kibito is just an assistant, not a body-guard. Besides Daizenshuu 7 seems to include some rare very specific information regarding his strength: "His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan." Not to mention that should imply that the saiyans shouldn't be able to do anything against Kaioshin in their regular form.

Did you reply to the wrong person? dprez was the one who said Kibito was Kaioushin's bodyguard. I've already replied to him that Kibito's merely his assistant and serves the same purpose to Kaioushin as Mr. Popo does to the God of Earth.

[Fox666]

Probably I messed with the quotes, I often do that.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”

Kibito heavily implies that SSjin 2 Gohan's power wouldn't be amazing if he was a Kaioshin, and Kaioshin himself isn't shaken at all by sensing him. Strong implications here that Kaioshin is SSjin 2 tier, which obviously isn't the case considering he was heavily implied to be one-shot material for even Pui-Pui.

Aren't you reading too much on it? Besides, later Kaioshin would say that probably wasn't all of Gohan's strength:

"Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…"

[Piccolo Daimao]

Probably I messed with the quotes, I often do that.

Ah, OK. That's fine, then.

On a side-note, I'll repeat this: the same arc had Vegeta call Kibito was a "bumbler" for getting killed by Dabra, so someone could argue that Dabra only killed Kibito because he was off-guard, and Kibito's close to or stronger than Dabra. But I doubt that's a popular opinion, for obvious reasons.

[dprez]

I just like to believe that Kaioushin is just afraid and/or cautious of anyone associated with Bobbodi and Boo, and he pretty much loses all intelligence when he's confronted with an "M". Not to mention that he's not the smartest tool in the box generally, either. I mean, he actually believed that Gohan could defeat Boo just by swinging around some bullshit legendary sword for a while. I thought a Kaioushin should know better than to believe in silly little legends meant for beings of the lower world. Then again, that can be attributed to his naivety in youth.

That makes things far easier to deal with, rather than trying to reconcile all the contradictory statements into making some semblance of sense.

I find it kind of hard to believe that Kaioshin is really that stupid, but either he is exactly what you say, or Piccolo and the base saiyans are actually stronger than him, and he had every right to be that afraid and think someone so much stronger than him like Gohan could master the strongest sword in the universe and beat boo. I guess Kaioshin being somewhat of a pansy is the easy way of explaining things, but I'm not so sure...

Kibito is just an assistant, not a body-guard. Besides Daizenshuu 7 seems to include some rare very specific information regarding his strength: "His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan."

Not to mention that should imply that the saiyans shouldn't be able to do anything against Kaioshin in their regular form.

That could just mean Kibito's over-all demeanor and stature, and his mysterious and foreboding identity, not necessarily how much power Gohan was feeling from him. Besides, I personally take certain things the Daizenshuu says with a grain of salt. If Kaioshin truly is stronger than Piccolo, than your right, the saiyans shouldn't be able to handle Kaioshin in their base forms.


Just my thoughts.

[dbgtFO]

On a side-note, I'll repeat this: the same arc had Vegeta call Kibito was a "bumbler" for getting killed by Dabra, so someone could argue that Dabra only killed Kibito because he was off-guard, and Kibito's close to or stronger than Dabra. But I doubt that's a popular opinion, for obvious reasons.

Dabra was holding back, so there is no problem with Kibito being implied to be capable of dodging or whatever a holding back Dabra.

[Piccolo Daimao]

On a side-note, I'll repeat this: the same arc had Vegeta call Kibito was a "bumbler" for getting killed by Dabra, so someone could argue that Dabra only killed Kibito because he was off-guard, and Kibito's close to or stronger than Dabra. But I doubt that's a popular opinion, for obvious reasons.

Dabra was holding back, so there is no problem with Kibito being implied to be capable of dodging or whatever a holding back Dabra.

Dabra would've destroyed Kibito whether or not he was holding back.

[Saiga]

On a side-note, I'll repeat this: the same arc had Vegeta call Kibito was a "bumbler" for getting killed by Dabra, so someone could argue that Dabra only killed Kibito because he was off-guard, and Kibito's close to or stronger than Dabra. But I doubt that's a popular opinion, for obvious reasons.

I do believe Vegeta was referring to strength - what he saw of Dabra didn't impress him, so he didn't care about Kibito getting killed. "Weakling" would serve better than "Bumbler" but I don't think it makes much difference.

[dbgtFO]

Dabra was holding back, so there is no problem with Kibito being implied to be capable of dodging or whatever a holding back Dabra.

Dabra would've destroyed Kibito whether or not he was holding back.

Obviously, since that's what he did...
The point was that Dabra was holding back meaning Kibito is only ever implied to be capable of dodging the attack of a massively holding back Dabra. He's not implied to be anything to a Dabra actually trying his best, so there is no problem with the implication of Vegeta's statement.

[Fox666]

But all Vegeta said was this:

I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…

He is simply saying that Kibito is weak and was killed in a miserable way.

[In Brightest Day]

I don't know what it is with me making Appule fights recently.

Appule vs. Cultivars x6 (specifically, the six Saibamen that battled on Earth).

Side question: would Appule even be aware of what the Cultivars are? Were they something Frieza & his henchmen used, or were they more commonly used by the Saiyans?

[dprez]

I don't know what it is with me making Appule fights recently.

Appule vs. Cultivars x6 (specifically, the six Saibamen that battled on Earth).

Side question: would Appule even be aware of what the Cultivars are? Were they something Freeza & his henchmen used, or were they more commonly used by the Saiyans?

Good question. My opinion is that they were a part of some race of beings on some planet, probably used by the main inhabitants on that planet the way the saiyans used them on Earth. It could've been conquered by Freeza and his men, and the seeds were handed out among the random warriors going off to conquer planets, or possibly by the Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz themselves. He may or may not know about them. I would think he would though.

I would think that Freeza keeps Appule around because he can at least handle someone like Raditz with moderate difficulties. He doesn't seam like the smartest fighter, so I think the Cultivators, If told to fight seriously from the get go, by who I don't know, Appule might not be able to handle all of them. I think Appule could take them all out if the Saibamen don't work together. I'm not sure how strong Appule is, but he should be at least >= Raditz.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

While I think Appule is more powerful than them, I could see him having a tough time fighting all of them. I think he might be able to take down a few of them before being out of energy, which would give them a chance to finish him.

[dbgtFO]

But all Vegeta said was this:

I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…

He is simply saying that Kibito is weak and was killed in a miserable way.

Was that directed at me?

I don't know what it is with me making Appule fights recently.

Appule vs. Cultivars x6 (specifically, the six Saibamen that battled on Earth).

Side question: would Appule even be aware of what the Cultivars are? Were they something Freeza & his henchmen used, or were they more commonly used by the Saiyans?

Appule easily defeats all of them. My estimated battle power for him is 2,500, more than twice their power, which I think is enough to defeat them, even if they work together as a team.

The Cultivars were created by a Saiyan scientist. Toriyama mentioned that in a memo to the anime staff, which was later repeated in Daizenshuu 7.

[Fox666]

Was that directed at me?

To everyone. I didn't get the part about Kibito being able to dodge Dabra or whatever.

The Cultivars were created by a Saiyan scientist. Toriyama mentioned that in a memo to the anime staff, which was later repeated in Daizenshuu 7.

I always tought Toriyama sort of ret-conned all information regarding "Saiyan technology". While in a memo for the anime he gives a whole back-story about how they stole the Scouters and armors from the Tsufurians, later in the manga he is simply shown as being part of a bigger scheme under Freeza which all of his followers use that technology.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Appule vs. Cultivars x6 (specifically, the six Saibamen that battled on Earth).

Side question: would Appule even be aware of what the Cultivars are? Were they something Freeza & his henchmen used, or were they more commonly used by the Saiyans?

I think that Appule's at 2,000, so strong enough to defeat the Saibaimen with relative ease, but I think, amidst all the fighting, one of them would take him off-guard and self-destruct, killing him instantly.

And I believe Appule would be aware of what the Saibaimen are, since all of Freeza's army (including the Saiyans) probably used the Saibaimen for menial tasks, just like how Freeza's army apparently took the Saiyans' scouters, perhaps their armour and other technology too.

Dabra was holding back, so there is no problem with Kibito being implied to be capable of dodging or whatever a holding back Dabra.

Dabra would've destroyed Kibito whether or not he was holding back.

Obviously, since that's what he did...
The point was that Dabra was holding back meaning Kibito is only ever implied to be capable of dodging the attack of a massively holding back Dabra. He's not implied to be anything to a Dabra actually trying his best, so there is no problem with the implication of Vegeta's statement.

Yet Vegeta says that they could've easily taken care of Dabra, since they apparently could tell his full power just by looking at his movements outside, but then calls Kibito a bumbler. Even though Kibito would've been killed either way. Wouldn't Vegeta have acknowledged that?