The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Helios518]

Wasn't baby Vegeta around ssj4 level? That should mean he is at least close to initial SSG, though I agree Vegito blue would win.

No, Baby was getting stomped by SSJ4 Goku until he went Golden Oozaru. I disagree that being SSJ4 level makes you close to God tier. Anime BoG SSJG level was a level where you're strong enough to destroy the universe in a battle while Omega's (2nd strongest GT character) plan to destroy the universe required a planet infection bomb of sorts.

But isn't Zamasu also below God-tier? And he's the half of Merged Zamasu.

Yes, he wasn't God tier but Merged Zamasu only was able to fight Vegetto because getting corrupted gave him a boost in power. Normal Merged Zamasu would've gotten stomped by Vegetto Blue like in the manga.

[dragon boss z]

Baby Vegetto Black would easily get erased because Vegetto Blue is made from two SSJBs while Baby Vegetto Black is made from someone around SSJB tier and a character that is way below God tier.

Wasn't Baby Vegeta around ssj4 level? That should mean he is at least close to initial SSG, though I agree Vegito Blue would win.

But isn't Zamasu also below God-tier? And he's the half of Merged Zamasu.

Yes, that's why I said baby Vegetto black is probably around or above merged Zamasu but below SSB Vegito.
Imo
Zamasu<=>Caulifla<Kale<=>Baby Vegeta<SSB Goku/Vegeta/SSR Black<<ssj2 Kefla<merged Zamasu<baby Vegito black<SSB Vegito

[dragon boss z]

No, Baby was getting stomped by SSJ4 Goku until he went Golden Oozaru.

He was still above ssj3 of a base Goku that was buu tier. That should put him above Zamsu imo.

I disagree that being SSJ4 level makes you close to God tier. Anime BoG SSJG level was a level where you're strong enough to destroy the universe in a battle while Omega's (2nd strongest GT character) plan to destroy the universe required a planet infection bomb of sorts.

That destroy a universe in battle feat is weird and dragon ball power should never be judged like that anywyas. I mean Hit has yet to even show one ki blast, meaning if he doesn't use ki blats he might not even be able to destroy a planet (not saying he can't though). And the androids who would crush namek saga Frieza might not of had the same level of DC as Frieza, they were just faster, stronger, more durable, and have more potency. Also if Frieza can catch up and surpass SSB in 4 months I fail to see how Goku after over 10 years of training with a base form as strong or stronger than Buu (base Goku in Super had trouble with Fit Buu), that has ssj4 wouldn't at least be close to initial SSG. Back in the BoG movie when SSG was 60% of Beerus I would agree, but no SSG is less than 1% of Beerus so it isn't special anymore and it seems any strong opponent can challenge it. If Kale, Dyspo, Hit, and Frieza can fight or even surpass SSG with nothing close to universal feats there is no reason GT characters can't.

[Ki Breaker]

Full Stamina SSJG Goku vs SSJ Kafla

If we go by what we are show Kefla beats UI goku as well in a real fight, surprise Kamehameha dosen't work eveytime, she will simply powerup to a new form learn to control and ascend beyond it in seconds like it's no big deal..

The episode can try to establish any absurdity it wants but I stick to my belief and logic of SSG being more than enough for her..

[Helios518]

No, Baby was getting stomped by SSJ4 Goku until he went Golden Oozaru.
He was still above ssj3 of a base Goku that was buu tier. That should put him above Zamsu imo.

Of course, I wasn't denying this.

That destroy a universe in battle feat is weird

The universal shock-waves feat is weird, I agree but there's other solid feats and statements of SSJG tier being universal level such as when the narrator states SSJG-absorbed SSJG Goku and Beerus have the power to destroy the universe.

dragon ball power should never be judged like that anywyas.

I don't see why not. DB has surprisingly been consistent with this.

[spoiler]DB Roshi = Moon Buster
BoZ Piccolo = Casual Moon Buster
Saiyan Arc Vegeta = Planet Buster
1st form Freeza = Casual Planet Buster
SP Cell = Solar System Buster
SSJG = Universe Buster
Zeno = Casual Multiverse Buster[/spoiler]

I mean Hit has yet to even show one ki blast, meaning if he doesn't use ki blats he might not even be able to destroy a planet (not saying he can't though). And the androids who would crush namek saga Frieza might not of had the same level of DC as Frieza, they were just faster, stronger, more durable, and have more potency.

You hit the nail here. I wouldn't be surprised if most characters don't have the destruction capacity to blow up celestial objects/systems but they most definitely have the attack potency to do so. I.E Hit may not be able to blow up a planet but he can still casually stomp star-level opponents.

Also if Frieza can catch up and surpass SSB in 4 months I fail to see how Goku after over 10 years of training with a base form as strong or stronger than Buu (base Goku in Super had trouble with Fit Buu), that has ssj4 wouldn't at least be close to initial SSG.

Because Freeza is a prodigy/mutant unlike Goku. Also DBS Base Goku/Vegeta can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks meaning Goku having trouble with Fit Boo doesn't mean Goku's weak, it means that Fit Boo is strong.

If Kale, Dyspo, Hit, and Frieza can fight or even surpass SSG with nothing close to universal feats

Their (Not sure about Kale) universal feats consist of hurting universe-level opponents and taking their attacks.

there is no reason GT characters can't

Because no GT character showed or was stated to do anything universal feat in battle.

[dragon boss z]

The universal shock-waves feat is weird, I agree but there's other solid feats and statements of SSJG tier being universal level such as when the narrator states SSJG-absorbed SSJG Goku and Beerus have the power to destroy the universe.

There are things that imply that they might not be universe level either, or at least SSG Goku. Beerus probably has the power, and we were supposed to think SSG Goku=100% Beerus at the time so it could of just been said that SSG Goku could do it because Beerus could do it.

I don't see why not. DB has surprisingly been consistent with this.

[spoiler]DB Roshi = Moon Buster
BoZ Piccolo = Casual Moon Buster
Saiyan Arc Vegeta = Planet Buster
1st form Freeza = Casual Planet Buster
SP Cell = Solar System Buster
SSJG = Universe Buster
Zeno = Casual Multiverse Buster[/spoiler]

Roshi's and BoZ Piccolo's moon feats are outliers. To me it just seems like the dragon ball moon is easy to destroy. I mean Roshi had to go buff just to destroy a small mountain and end of dragon ball Piccolo's strongest blast was only island level. Also the guide books say King Piccolo is only nuke level and Yajirobi is even amazed that Goku beat someone who could destroy a city, and that is the same Yajirobi who is almost as strong as base Roshi. And for Vegeta being a planet buster, I have him a planetary level, but not a true planet buster as there are many planets in the namek saga implying Frieza is the only legit planet buster that can vaporize an entire planet in one attack.

Because Freeza is a prodigy/mutant unlike Goku.

Base Goku beat a Frieza and Cell that were training in hell in GT. And I know Frieza is more of a prodigy than Goku, but if Goku's base is above or around Buu level then his ssj4 form should at least be getting close to golden Frieza level. Maybe 10x weaker.

Also DBS Base Goku/Vegeta can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks meaning Goku having trouble with Fit Boo doesn't mean Goku's weak, it means that Fit Boo is strong.

Base Goku also had trouble with the trio de danger, 2 of which are weaker than Fat Majin Buu.

Their (Not sure about Kale) universal feats consist of hurting universe-level opponents and taking their attacks.

I really doubt any of them are universe level. What would be the point of ssj2 Kefla saying "I feel like I can destroy a universe in 1 shot" if she could of done it already before?

Dyspo<Berserk Kale<SSG Goku<=base Kefla<Hit<ssj Kefla<ssj2 Kefla

Because no GT character showed or was stated to do anything universal feat in battle.

And if you ignore the universe shockwaves and the narrator statement that seem to be outliers then most Super characters aren't either. Even Toshio one of the writers of Super said Goku isn't universe level yet and maybe if he becomes a GoD he would be. From all of the statements I've seen I think the writers have come to the conclusion that GoD level is universe level, or at least close to GoD level. SSG and anything above is strong enough to threaten it, but not enough to bust it in one attack.

[Helios518]

Roshi's and BoZ Piccolo's moon feats are outliers. To me it just seems like the dragon ball moon is easy to destroy. I mean Roshi had to go buff just to destroy a small mountain and end of dragon ball Piccolo's strongest blast was only island level. Also the guide books say King Piccolo is only nuke level and Yajirobi is even amazed that Goku beat someone who could destroy a city, and that is the same Yajirobi who is almost as strong as base Roshi. And for Vegeta being a planet buster, I have him a planetary level, but not a true planet buster as there are many planets in the namek saga implying Frieza is the only legit planet buster that can vaporize an entire planet in one attack.

Piccolo's strongest only blew up an island because if he moon-busted Earth then there would be no civilizations to conquer. And IIRC the guidebooks stated that Piccolo Daimao "has the power of a nuke" which still doesn't contradict moon busting because it's no different than saying "Freeza has the power to destroy The Moon" even though he could destroy much bigger planets.

Base Goku also had trouble with the trio de danger, 2 of which are weaker than Fat Majin Buu.

It could be argued that the Trio De Danger's teamwork was giving him trouble but even then I could give you evidence on how Base Goku tanked Piccolo's charged up blast when the same Piccolo earlier dominated SSJ2 Gohan and also the fact that RoF Base Goku kept up with 4th form Freeza but earlier, his 1st form was stomped SSJ Gohan.

What would be the point of ssj2 Kefla saying "I feel like I can destroy a universe in 1 shot" if she could of done it already before?

Because SSJ2 Kafla never destroyed a universe and even if she wanted to at that moment, she wouldn't be able to because she's in the World of the Void. So she's just guessing even though she can.

And if you ignore the universe shockwaves and the narrator statement that seem to be outliers then most Super characters aren't either.

Why would ignore completely valid feats and statements? You also forgot to mention the time where they both made a energy that if burst, would destroy the universe.

https://gfycat.com/OilyAcidicIceblueredtopzebra

Even Toshio one of the writers of Super said Goku isn't universe level yet and maybe if he becomes a GoD he would be.

Feats > WoG

Toshio directly contradicts what DBS established. Imagine Toriyama saying SSJG Goku is weaker than Goten, it doesn't matter if Toriyama said that and believes it, it directly contradicts the show.

SSG and anything above is strong enough to threaten it, but not enough to bust it in one attack.

I don't think so. SSJG Goku contributed 50% to the ultra-dense energy that would destroy the universe and then we have the narrator statement. At the very least, that would mean initial SSJG is multi-galaxy level which is still drastically above any feats from GT characters.

[Roronoa-pt]

Hypotetical Super Vegetto ( current Goku & current Vegeta ) vs SSJ2 Kefla
Pride Troopers ( everyone excluding Jiren ) vs Piccolo, Gohan, #17, #18 & Freeza

[Kataphrut]

Hypotetical Super Vegetto ( current Goku & current Vegeta ) vs SSJ2 Kefla
Pride Troopers ( everyone excluding Jiren ) vs Piccolo, Gohan, #17, #18 & Freeza

1. In the spirit of the show, I'll give it to Vegetto because whatever the power difference is between them (which I can't be bothered to try and deduce right now) he is simply a smarter, more tactical fighter. Kefla just likes to throw her power around, which he could easily deal with.

2. If Toppo fights Freeza solo (he'd have to since they're the only ones in the same league as each other), the Pride Troopers would outnumber the rest 2 to 1. They're not that strong, but the right team coordination could cause a problem. It all comes down to who fights who. 17's barrier could counter Dyspo's speed and Piccolo might have to fight Khaseral since he's the only one who can stand getting a limb chopped off. Gohan can handle just about any pair thrown at him and 18 has already proved she can deal with Tupper and Cocotte no problem. It'd be tough, they'd lose a few, but I'd give it to Universe 7.

[pacz360]

Baby Vegetto Black would easily get erased because Vegetto Blue is made from two SSJBs while Baby Vegetto Black is made from someone around SSJB tier and a character that is way below God tier.

Wasn't Baby Vegeta around ssj4 level? That should mean he is at least close to initial SSG, though I agree Vegito Blue would win.

But isn't Zamasu also below God-tier? And he's the half of Merged Zamasu.

No f.zamasu is around ssjg/blue tier given his performance in the anime

[Noah]

No f.zamasu is around ssjg/blue tier given his performance in the anime

Well, would say the same about SSJ F. Trunks? He almost killed him if wasn't for his immortality.

[pacz360]

No f.zamasu is around ssjg/blue tier given his performance in the anime

Well, would say the same about SSJ F. Trunks? He almost killed him if wasn't for his immortality.

F.trunks was strong enough to block a blow from ssjr rose that was intended for ssjb goku and kicked him into a building

[Noah]

F.trunks was strong enough to block a blow from ssjr rose that was intended for ssjb goku and kicked him into a building

Yes, but you believe Trunks is God/Blue tier as Super Saiyan?

[pacz360]

F.trunks was strong enough to block a blow from ssjr rose that was intended for ssjb goku and kicked him into a building

Yes, but you believe Trunks is God/Blue tier as Super Saiyan?

Ssj2 and yes considering he trained with vegeta and the episode preview card mentions trunks gotten stronger via his training
Given how fast characters get in super trunks being around ssjg tier is believable especially since he took the same attack ssjb goku took as well

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Goku vs Turkey

I'm asking because it's Thanksgiving

[Noah]

Yes, but you believe Trunks is God/Blue tier as Super Saiyan?

Ssj2 and yes considering he trained with vegeta and the episode preview card mentions trunks gotten stronger via his training
Given how fast characters get in super trunks being around ssjg tier is believable especially since he took the same attack ssjb goku took as well

Then by this logic if SSJ F. Trunks is already God-tier, SSJ "Rage", "Ikari" or whatever is above God level, right? Thus explaining how he resisted against Merged Zamasu and cut him in half?

Goku vs Turkey

I'm asking because it's Thanksgiving

It depends, the Turkey is allowed to use Drill Peck? Is that current Goku? If not, then well Goku eats him wins anyway.

[dragon boss z]

Piccolo's strongest only blew up an island because if he moon-busted Earth then there would be no civilizations to conquer.

It seemed he was trying to make as big as an explosion as possible and it was the biggest explosion in the manga/anime besides the moon busting at that time. It was clearly supposed to show us how strong he was.

And IIRC the guidebooks stated that Piccolo Daimao "has the power of a nuke" which still doesn't contradict moon busting because it's no different than saying "Freeza has the power to destroy The Moon" even though he could destroy much bigger planets.

What? That's not what the guide meant. It meant King Piccolo's full power equaled that of a nuke, and it even said small nuke. And the manga backs this up by saying how impressive it was for Goku to beat a city buster.

It could be argued that the Trio De Danger's teamwork was giving him trouble but even then I could give you evidence on how Base Goku tanked Piccolo's charged up blast when the same Piccolo earlier dominated SSJ2 Gohan and also the fact that RoF Base Goku kept up with 4th form Freeza but earlier, his 1st form was stomped SSJ Gohan.

All of those things you just mentioned just mean Goku's base has to be around Buu level. Piccolo only dominated ssj2 Gohan with his skill, his power was about equal, and ssj Gohan in the RoF arc was like android-semi perfect cell tier, he was extremely weak then.

Why would ignore completely valid feats and statements?

Dragon ball can't always be taken seriously. Goku went to the moon on his powerpole and survive, and in Super there was the Arale episode.

You also forgot to mention the time where they both made a energy that if burst, would destroy the universe.

But it didn't and I believe there was a line from Whis that said it would at lest destroy the solar system, which means that it may of only been solar system+++.

Feats > WoG

There are no universe destroying feats besides Zeno.

Toshio directly contradicts what DBS established. Imagine Toriyama saying SSJG Goku is weaker than Goten, it doesn't matter if Toriyama said that and believes it, it directly contradicts the show.

DBS seemed to establish 17 as SSB level, yet in the next episode he is having trouble with Rosie who was losing to base Goku, and 18 was fighting Ribrianne who did well against 17 meaning 17 can be that far ahead of 18. Super is written by different writers every episode and isn't very consistent.

I don't think so. SSJG Goku contributed 50% to the ultra-dense energy that would destroy the universe and then we have the narrator statement. At the very least, that would mean initial SSJG is multi-galaxy level which is still drastically above any feats from GT characters.

In the manga Beerus implied even he couldn't easily destroy a universe in one shot.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Helios518]

It seemed he was trying to make as big as an explosion as possible and it was the biggest explosion in the manga/anime besides the moon busting at that time. It was clearly supposed to show us how strong he was.

Perhaps but it doesn't negate that was a weaker Piccolo so even if he was island level at the time, nothing negates that he was moon level by the time of Raditz.

All of those things you just mentioned just mean Goku's base has to be around Buu level. Piccolo only dominated ssj2 Gohan with his skill, his power was about equal, and ssj Gohan in the RoF arc was like android-semi perfect cell tier, he was extremely weak then.

There's over a 200x difference between 1st and 4th form Freeza. So even if SSJ Gohan was that weak (which I doubt), 4th form Freeza would still be in top tier Boo Arc levels and even if somehow GT Goku is stronger than Goku in the same form, no one in GT has showed a percent of a what BoG SSJG can do.

Dragon ball can't always be taken seriously. Goku went to the moon on his powerpole and survive, and in Super there was the Arale episode.

So you used two gag moments to compare one very serious moment? Alright then.

But it didn't and I believe there was a line from Whis that said it would at lest destroy the solar system, which means that it may of only been solar system+++.

The only time he mention anything about a Solar System was in the BoG movie. Whis actually said this in the arc.

https://imgur.com/cOY7hJA

There are no universe destroying feats besides Zeno.

You're right but the universe statements are still perfectly coherent in DBS and don't contradict anything besides what Toshi said but considering how big of a plot-point the universe about to be destroyed in the BoG arc was, the the in-universe statements take precedence over what Toshi said.

DBS seemed to establish 17 as SSB level, yet in the next episode he is having trouble with Rosie who was losing to base Goku, and 18 was fighting Ribrianne who did well against 17 meaning 17 can be that far ahead of 18. Super is written by different writers every episode and isn't very consistent.

Bringing up a inconsistency in the series doesn't stop the universe statements from being consistent.

In the manga Beerus implied even he couldn't easily destroy a universe in one shot.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm arguing for the Anime, don't bring up a different continuity as evidence.

[Berserker1921]

New battle:

Jiren vs (equal power to the foes he faces)

1. Roshi
2. Burter
3. Android 16
4. Perfect Cell
5. Kid Buu

[dragon boss z]

Perhaps but it doesn't negate that was a weaker Piccolo so even if he was island level at the time, nothing negates that he was moon level by the time of Raditz.

You keep forgetting to tag me.

Piccolo only got a few times stronger at most, so it doesn't make sense for him to be that much stronger. And Roshi went buff and got tired from destroying a mountain, which he should be able to sneeze away in base form if he could bust a full sized moon. Dragon ball is just wacky sometimes.

There's over a 200x difference between 1st and 4th form Freeza. So even if SSJ Gohan was that weak (which I doubt), 4th form Freeza would still be in top tier Boo Arc levels and even if somehow GT Goku is stronger than Goku in the same form, no one in GT has showed a percent of a what BoG SSJG can do.

There is no stated multiplier for Frieza's forms and his training could of affected the power difference. Also that is only Frieza when he is buff, which he wasn't when he fought base Goku.

So you used two gag moments to compare one very serious moment? Alright then.

I can't take a scene with ki dragons seriously.

The only time he mention anything about a Solar System was in the BoG movie. Whis actually said this in the arc.

Pretty sure there was a line in Super as well.

I'm arguing for the Anime, don't bring up a different continuity as evidence.

Toriyama is more involved with the manga and the anime is supposed to be his vision, so if anything I think the writers were taking liberates in episode 12.