The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:44 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Goku loses all rounds. I don't think SSG is that much of a boost. It could have been only around 10-20x stronger than ssj3, or it could have been a few hundred times stronger, but even if it was a few hundred times stronger than ssj3, that would mean Goku would still only win the last round against Buuhan. SSG really isn't that special if it can be surpassed by base Kefla and Frieza after training for 4 months.
You're not factoring in the increase from god Ki, and it was so extreme that even post-ritual Base Goku had surpassed most of the Boo arc characters except for Anime Super Vegetto. You would first apply the God Ki increase of *thousands of times greater* first then punch in the 10-20x multiplier for SSJG from SSJ3. Bare minimum, a post-ritual SSJG is millions of times stronger than a pre-ritual Base Saiyan like Goku.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:00 pm

theherodjl wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:Goku loses all rounds. I don't think SSG is that much of a boost. It could have been only around 10-20x stronger than ssj3, or it could have been a few hundred times stronger, but even if it was a few hundred times stronger than ssj3, that would mean Goku would still only win the last round against Buuhan. SSG really isn't that special if it can be surpassed by base Kefla and Frieza after training for 4 months.
You're not factoring in the increase from god Ki, and it was so extreme that even post-ritual Base Goku had surpassed most of the Boo arc characters except for Anime Super Vegetto. You would first apply the God Ki increase of *thousands of times greater* first then punch in the 10-20x multiplier for SSJG from SSJ3. Bare minimum, a post-ritual SSJG is millions of times stronger than a pre-ritual Base Saiyan like Goku.
Yeah pretty much. SSG is several thousand times stronger than his previous SSJ3 and the resulting absorption of it made his base superior to everyone outside of SSJ Vegetto. (Where his SSJ was stronger than SSG after the ritual)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:26 pm

PFM18 wrote: I mean the way I see it Goku wins all the rounds outside of the one against Perfect Cell. I think SSG is 20,000x stronger than SSJ3. The difference is astronomical, hence Goku saying that he didn't think he could ever reach it on his own, that he didn't know that level of power was even possible and how he forced Beerus to use more power than the level that Goku deemed too much for anything fusion could put out. I won't get into how I came up with exactly that number but yeah I think Goku wins all these rounds besides the one against Perfect Cell based on the multiplier being 20,000x.
If it was really that much of a boost nobody would even be able to touch Goku, everyone on universe 7 would be completely useless to enemies that strong, but they aren't.

Below I explain my reasoning, but I think that SSG is more of a 20,000 boost to his base, not his ssj3. So the only numbers that come close to beating their opponent for me is the Buuhan one.

Even with we through out numbers, there is no logical way beginning of dragon ball kid Goku should be able to beat final form Frieza with any sort of power up. Current final form Frieza could put up a fight against SSG Goku, so basically what you are telling me is that Frieza got stronger in those 4 months than Goku did from the beginning of the series to the ToP.
theherodjl wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:Goku loses all rounds. I don't think SSG is that much of a boost. It could have been only around 10-20x stronger than ssj3, or it could have been a few hundred times stronger, but even if it was a few hundred times stronger than ssj3, that would mean Goku would still only win the last round against Buuhan. SSG really isn't that special if it can be surpassed by base Kefla and Frieza after training for 4 months.
You're not factoring in the increase from god Ki, and it was so extreme that even post-ritual Base Goku had surpassed most of the Boo arc characters except for Anime Super Vegetto. You would first apply the God Ki increase of *thousands of times greater* first then punch in the 10-20x multiplier for SSJG from SSJ3. Bare minimum, a post-ritual SSJG is millions of times stronger than a pre-ritual Base Saiyan like Goku.
Goku only got the big boost going SSG the first time as it was the first time experiencing god ki. His base jumped up after the experience, but that does not mean his SSG form got any stronger like his base. If Goku's base form was lets say 100x stronger his SSG form wouldn't also be 100x stronger.
Lets look at BoG for example. After Goku lost his SSG power he was keeping up with Beerus in base and ssj, but at the end of the fight he breefly went SSG again. Goku's base was clearly leagues stronger than before, but his SSG form was still no stronger than when he started. If his SSG form grew with his base then he would have casually one shot Beerus and Whis at the same time.

It would probably be easier to get across what I'm saying with power levels (not my definitive numbers as I always change them a bit, but this is the range I've always had them around)
pre god base Goku: 60 mil
namek Frieza: 120 mil
pre god ssj3 Goku: 24 bil
post god base Goku: 30 bil
post god ssj Goku: 150 bil
post god ssj3 Goku: 600 bil
SSG Goku: 1 tril

So by my estimate numbers SSG's multiplier was originally about a 16,000x multiplier from his base and about 42x stronger than his ssj3 form, but only about 33x stronger than his post god base and 2x stronger than his post god ssj3 form. The small difference between current ssj3 and SSG is backed up by ssj3 being heavily implied to be quite a bit above Kale and Caulifla, while they were able to put up a bit of a fight against SSG.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:39 pm

Alright guys, time for another hypothetical question. And this time, I'm gonna be asking about something that I know would please fans of their characters. With that being said...

How strong would Gohan and Piccolo be if they achieved Ultra Instinct "Omen" and Mastered Ultra Instinct and who'd be the strongest person they would beat? First, start with Gohan, then move on to Piccolo, and for both of them, start with UI "Omen", then talk about MUI?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:17 am

dragon boss z wrote:Goku only got the big boost going SSG the first time as it was the first time experiencing god ki. His base jumped up after the experience, but that does not mean his SSG form got any stronger like his base. If Goku's base form was lets say 100x stronger his SSG form wouldn't also be 100x stronger.
Lets look at BoG for example. After Goku lost his SSG power he was keeping up with Beerus in base and ssj, but at the end of the fight he breefly went SSG again. Goku's base was clearly leagues stronger than before, but his SSG form was still no stronger than when he started. If his SSG form grew with his base then he would have casually one shot Beerus and Whis at the same time.

It would probably be easier to get across what I'm saying with power levels (not my definitive numbers as I always change them a bit, but this is the range I've always had them around)
pre god base Goku: 60 mil
namek Frieza: 120 mil
pre god ssj3 Goku: 24 bil
post god base Goku: 30 bil
post god ssj Goku: 150 bil
post god ssj3 Goku: 600 bil
SSG Goku: 1 tril

So by my estimate numbers SSG's multiplier was originally about a 16,000x multiplier from his base and about 42x stronger than his ssj3 form, but only about 33x stronger than his post god base and 2x stronger than his post god ssj3 form. The small difference between current ssj3 and SSG is backed up by ssj3 being heavily implied to be quite a bit above Kale and Caulifla, while they were able to put up a bit of a fight against SSG.
I'm not arguing that Goku's base made his SSJG power go up in proportion to his strength after acquiring God Ki, I'm arguing the opposite. Goku's SSJG power made his base & SSJ forms go up so as to be a set multiplier from his new state of power.

Its like this.
Base Goku(pre-ritual): 10
SSJ Goku: 500
SSJ2 Goku: 1,000
SSJ3 Goku: 4,000
SSJG Goku: 1,000,000,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 125,000
SSJ Goku: 6,750,000
SSJ2 Goku: 12,500,000
SSJ3 Goku: 50,000,000

Its due to the fact that Goku said he needed something more than fusion to beat Beerus, and so it would make Goku's base power after the ritual to a level below Super Vegetto, but still higher than most Boo arc characters.
So the multiplier from pre-ritual Base Goku to SSJG, and his SSJ forms after the ritual is in the millions.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:09 pm

Kid Vegeta (as of Bardock: The Father of Goku) somehow gains Super Saiyan Rose and MUI. He develops Rose into the Scythe version and can use MUI without stamina or time limit problems. He eventually even manages to find a way to merge the forms together, making MUI Super Saiyan Rose (scythe). Who is the strongest character he can beat? He has all of the abilities that come with both forms (for example, the Clone thing that Goku Black did).

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:33 pm

- Mastered UI Goku vs. Kaioken + SSB Vegetto
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:04 pm

Nobody answered my question.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:17 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Alright guys, time for another hypothetical question. And this time, I'm gonna be asking about something that I know would please fans of their characters. With that being said...

How strong would Gohan and Piccolo be if they achieved Ultra Instinct "Omen" and Mastered Ultra Instinct and who'd be the strongest person they would beat? First, start with Gohan, then move on to Piccolo, and for both of them, start with UI "Omen", then talk about MUI?


For Gohan, I would have to say that in UIO, the strongest character he could beat is SS2 Kefla, as I would have him a little weaker than UIO Goku (Episode 129). MUI Gohan I would have at either beating UIO (Episode 129) Goku or Full Power Jiren, before Jiren broke his limits.


Piccolo in UIO, perhaps SSB Kaioken x20 Goku (Episode 109)? That's my best guess. For MUI I would put him at beating possibly Hakaishin Toppo.


jeffbr92 wrote:- Mastered UI Goku vs. Kaioken + SSB Vegetto



Vegito from the Zamasu Arc? He loses if he only goes to Kaioken x2, anything higher is difficult to say. If it's Vegito from the TOP Arc then he wins with any multiplier of Kaioken.



Champa The Destroyer wrote:Kid Vegeta (as of Bardock: The Father of Goku) somehow gains Super Saiyan Rose and MUI. He develops Rose into the Scythe version and can use MUI without stamina or time limit problems. He eventually even manages to find a way to merge the forms together, making MUI Super Saiyan Rose (scythe). Who is the strongest character he can beat? He has all of the abilities that come with both forms (for example, the Clone thing that Goku Black did).

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:59 pm

Beerus vs. Kanba
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:46 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Beerus vs. Kanba
Who's that?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Analytic » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:03 pm

Base Vegetto (DBS) vs. SS4 Gogeta (ED arc)

Round 1: Anime Vegetto
Round 2: Manga Vegetto

I think most agree Vegetto Blue would win easily, but how about without transforming?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:23 pm

Champa The Destroyer wrote:
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Alright guys, time for another hypothetical question. And this time, I'm gonna be asking about something that I know would please fans of their characters. With that being said...

How strong would Gohan and Piccolo be if they achieved Ultra Instinct "Omen" and Mastered Ultra Instinct and who'd be the strongest person they would beat? First, start with Gohan, then move on to Piccolo, and for both of them, start with UI "Omen", then talk about MUI?


For Gohan, I would have to say that in UIO, the strongest character he could beat is SS2 Kefla, as I would have him a little weaker than UIO Goku (Episode 129). MUI Gohan I would have at either beating UIO (Episode 129) Goku or Full Power Jiren, before Jiren broke his limits.
Really? Even though the series has told us time and time again that Gohan has far greater potential than his father?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:30 pm

theherodjl wrote: I'm not arguing that Goku's base made his SSJG power go up in proportion to his strength after acquiring God Ki, I'm arguing the opposite. Goku's SSJG power made his base & SSJ forms go up so as to be a set multiplier from his new state of power.

Its like this.
Base Goku(pre-ritual): 10
SSJ Goku: 500
SSJ2 Goku: 1,000
SSJ3 Goku: 4,000
SSJG Goku: 1,000,000,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 125,000
SSJ Goku: 6,750,000
SSJ2 Goku: 12,500,000
SSJ3 Goku: 50,000,000

Its due to the fact that Goku said he needed something more than fusion to beat Beerus, and so it would make Goku's base power after the ritual to a level below Super Vegetto, but still higher than most Boo arc characters.
So the multiplier from pre-ritual Base Goku to SSJG, and his SSJ forms after the ritual is in the millions.
Ok, then we agree on that. Where we disagree is how strong SSG is and how much stronger post ritual base Goku is compared to pre ritual ssj3. ToP base Goku lost to Buu and had trouble with the trio de danger all at once and each one was at most Buu tier. And SSG Goku was fighting opponents who were fighting his ssj2 form.

based off of your number scale mine would go like
base Goku (pre-ritual): 10
ssj3 Goku: 4,000
base Vegito: 5,000
ssj Vegito: 50,000 to 250,000
ssj3 Vegito 400,000 to 2,000,000
SSG Goku 500,000 to 5,000,000
and I would have post ritual Goku about the same as Vegito.
my number ranges are due to the fact I think fusions and mastering of the base form may lead to less of a boost from ssj, but even with the full boost I would say they are much lower than where you have them. They could be as strong as you say, but there is no proof, and I proved number wise that SSG Goku can be stronger than ssj3 Vegito and still be 200 times weaker than you have him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:12 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:
Champa The Destroyer wrote:
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Alright guys, time for another hypothetical question. And this time, I'm gonna be asking about something that I know would please fans of their characters. With that being said...

How strong would Gohan and Piccolo be if they achieved Ultra Instinct "Omen" and Mastered Ultra Instinct and who'd be the strongest person they would beat? First, start with Gohan, then move on to Piccolo, and for both of them, start with UI "Omen", then talk about MUI?


For Gohan, I would have to say that in UIO, the strongest character he could beat is SS2 Kefla, as I would have him a little weaker than UIO Goku (Episode 129). MUI Gohan I would have at either beating UIO (Episode 129) Goku or Full Power Jiren, before Jiren broke his limits.
Really? Even though the series has told us time and time again that Gohan has far greater potential than his father?


Well, if Gohan had trained he would be above Goku, but considering that Gohan was far weaker than Goku in the TOP, he imo should be weaker than his father.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:30 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Beerus vs. Kanba
Who's that?
Beerus

Kanba
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:58 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Beerus vs. Kanba
Who's that?
Beerus

Kanba
I thought that guy's name was "Cumber"? I was under the impression that was his name.

But anyway, Umm the new weird Saiyan guy I guess? I really have no idea and I don't take DB heroes power scaling seriously.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Alruneia » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:07 am

PFM18 wrote:I thought that guy's name was "Cumber"? I was under the impression that was his name.
The name doesn't have an official translation. It's written as カンバー, which when directly romanised says Kanba. (Or Kamba.)
The name is derived from キューカンバー, kyukanba, which is a Japanese-ification (for lack of a better term) of "cucumber", so if you want to preserve the vegetable pun, you get Cumber as the translation.
In short, Kanba and Cumber are both right.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:38 pm

Strongest character Xeno Goku (the game version) can beat? I don't know much about Heroes but heard crazy things like him stopping Demigra (who was threatening all 12 universes and the real world) in Base/SS1.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:57 am

Champa The Destroyer wrote:Strongest character Xeno Goku (the game version) can beat? I don't know much about Heroes but heard crazy things like him stopping Demigra (who was threatening all 12 universes and the real world) in Base/SS1.
Right, I don’t actually know much about Heroes, but just seeing what other people have posted on this forum and on the internet I might have a rough idea where he lies.
I’ve heard that he’s around equal to a SSJ4 Broly with Time breaker mask and a Dark dragonball. GT SSJ4’s were weaker than basic SSJ4 Broly. Also Xeno Goku lost to post ToP SSJB Goku and stated that he’s a step above him.

So in the heroes continuity it looks like this (I think) SSJB Goku > Xeno SSJ4 Goku = Tbm w/Ddb SSJ4 Broly > SSJ4 Broly > GT SSJ4 Goku

I’m sure that’s basically what I’ve seen people say here and around the internet.

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