The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:The 50 fold figure regardless of the fact that it came out "almost 10 years ago"(which in the grand scheme of things really isn't that long at all.) These are still official multipliers that make sense within the series. 20x Kaioken wasn't enough against Freeza but SSJ was so naturally it makes sense that this official multiplier is accurate.

The narrator, Beerus AND the episode title make it abundantly clear that Goku as a Super Saiyan surpassed SSG. The title is something along the lines of "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" the narrator states that he has surpassed a Super Saiyan God, and Beerus confirms it. They were referring to his normal super saiyan form because that was the form he was using at the time during that entire episode. The bit about surpassing SSG is made extremely clear to the audience well before Super Saiyan Blue makes an appearance.

Goku said that Fusion wouldn't be enough against this suppressed Beerus. Goku knows that fusion wouldn't be enough and he could easily go SSJ3 as part of Vegetto. and then Beerus uses more power and he fights evenly with him as a Super Saiyan God.

The series makes it extremely clear if you want to deny it for some reason that is your own choice.
blain218 wrote:It doesn't matter how old a source is, its still an official source. And they all say SSJ is a 50x boost whether you like it of not.

Goku is never wrong when estimating people's power and he is one half of Vegito, so he knows full well what SSJ3 Vegito is capable of. And since even Goku says that SSJ3 Vegtio is still weaker than suppressed Beerus then its a fact.
Let’s simplify this. We have Toriyama directly giving numbers to Super Saiyan God (6) and Beerus (10) back in a Battle of Gods’ comic. Using the official and indisputable multiplier of Super Saiyan, we have SSGSS being something like 300. Even if SSGSS was as strong as SSG, using the regular kaioken on top of that would make Goku at least “over 12”, which doesn’t jive well with Beerus’ superiority over 10x or 20x kaioken even as far as the Tournament of Power went. Of course, the numbers given by Toriyama himself worked within the context of the movie (Beerus using about 70% of his full power), as well as the 50-fold figure on Freeza’s fight, but it doesn’t mean they are perfectly adjustable to a different sequence of events. That’s what I mean.

About the discussion at hand. No, the episode in which Goku fights Beerus as a regular Super Saiyan has a totally different title “This is every ounce of power I have! The Battle of Gods’ conclusion!”. The episode that has the title “Goku, Surpass the Super Saiyan God!” has Goku fighting almost entirely on his Super Saiyan God form, the regular Super Saiyan just appeared in the final minutes. And during their conversation, none knew what happened with Goku, he just didn’t feel like he was any weaker. Regardless, he didn’t keep that power when he went to train with Whis.

Still, I don’t understand how you know which form of Vegetto Goku was thinking when he compared himself with Beerus. He doesn’t tell much. Either way, we have two Saiyan girls surpassing Super Saiyan God with Potara and they weren’t even using Super Saiyan, so there is nothing clear. This is just some factoid you are making up.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:43 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The 50 fold figure regardless of the fact that it came out "almost 10 years ago"(which in the grand scheme of things really isn't that long at all.) These are still official multipliers that make sense within the series. 20x Kaioken wasn't enough against Freeza but SSJ was so naturally it makes sense that this official multiplier is accurate.

The narrator, Beerus AND the episode title make it abundantly clear that Goku as a Super Saiyan surpassed SSG. The title is something along the lines of "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" the narrator states that he has surpassed a Super Saiyan God, and Beerus confirms it. They were referring to his normal super saiyan form because that was the form he was using at the time during that entire episode. The bit about surpassing SSG is made extremely clear to the audience well before Super Saiyan Blue makes an appearance.

Goku said that Fusion wouldn't be enough against this suppressed Beerus. Goku knows that fusion wouldn't be enough and he could easily go SSJ3 as part of Vegetto. and then Beerus uses more power and he fights evenly with him as a Super Saiyan God.

The series makes it extremely clear if you want to deny it for some reason that is your own choice.
blain218 wrote:It doesn't matter how old a source is, its still an official source. And they all say SSJ is a 50x boost whether you like it of not.

Goku is never wrong when estimating people's power and he is one half of Vegito, so he knows full well what SSJ3 Vegito is capable of. And since even Goku says that SSJ3 Vegtio is still weaker than suppressed Beerus then its a fact.
Let’s simplify this. We have Toriyama directly giving numbers to Super Saiyan God (6) and Beerus (10) back in a Battle of Gods’ comic. Using the official and indisputable multiplier of Super Saiyan, we have SSGSS being something like 300. Even if SSGSS was as strong as SSG, using the regular kaioken on top of that would make Goku at least “over 12”, which doesn’t jive well with Beerus’ superiority over 10x or 20x kaioken even as far as the Tournament of Power went. Of course, the numbers given by Toriyama himself worked within the context of the movie (Beerus using about 70% of his full power), as well as the 50-fold figure on Freeza’s fight, but it doesn’t mean they are perfectly adjustable to a different sequence of events. That’s what I mean.

About the discussion at hand. No, the episode in which Goku fights Beerus as a regular Super Saiyan has a totally different title “This is every ounce of power I have! The Battle of Gods’ conclusion!”. The episode that has the title “Goku, Surpass the Super Saiyan God!” has Goku fighting almost entirely on his Super Saiyan God form, the regular Super Saiyan just appeared in the final minutes. And during their conversation, none knew what happened with Goku, he just didn’t feel like he was any weaker. Regardless, he didn’t keep that power when he went to train with Whis.

Still, I don’t understand how you know which form of Vegetto Goku was thinking when he compared himself with Beerus. He doesn’t tell much. Either way, we have two Saiyan girls surpassing Super Saiyan God with Potara and they weren’t even using Super Saiyan, so there is nothing clear. This is just some factoid you are making up.
Dude those numbers given after the movie shouldn't be given any mind because they were said when there were no plans for the series to continue. Hence why the Beerus using 70% of his power line was removed in Super because it would no longer make any sense.

yeah in episode 13 they talk about Goku Surpassing Super Saiyan God and how he surpassed it as a regular Super Saiyan. The title is "Goku, Go Beyond Super Saiyan God" because at the end of the episode he surpassed Super Saiyan God as a SSJ. The narrator at the end of the episode reiterates this while goku is in golden SSJ and Beerus makes a similar comment. How do you possibly come to the conclusion that this power wasn't kept when he went to train with Whis? This was never stated nor implied at any point

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by blain218 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:53 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The 50 fold figure regardless of the fact that it came out "almost 10 years ago"(which in the grand scheme of things really isn't that long at all.) These are still official multipliers that make sense within the series. 20x Kaioken wasn't enough against Freeza but SSJ was so naturally it makes sense that this official multiplier is accurate.

The narrator, Beerus AND the episode title make it abundantly clear that Goku as a Super Saiyan surpassed SSG. The title is something along the lines of "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" the narrator states that he has surpassed a Super Saiyan God, and Beerus confirms it. They were referring to his normal super saiyan form because that was the form he was using at the time during that entire episode. The bit about surpassing SSG is made extremely clear to the audience well before Super Saiyan Blue makes an appearance.

Goku said that Fusion wouldn't be enough against this suppressed Beerus. Goku knows that fusion wouldn't be enough and he could easily go SSJ3 as part of Vegetto. and then Beerus uses more power and he fights evenly with him as a Super Saiyan God.

The series makes it extremely clear if you want to deny it for some reason that is your own choice.
blain218 wrote:It doesn't matter how old a source is, its still an official source. And they all say SSJ is a 50x boost whether you like it of not.

Goku is never wrong when estimating people's power and he is one half of Vegito, so he knows full well what SSJ3 Vegito is capable of. And since even Goku says that SSJ3 Vegtio is still weaker than suppressed Beerus then its a fact.
Let’s simplify this. We have Toriyama directly giving numbers to Super Saiyan God (6) and Beerus (10) back in a Battle of Gods’ comic. Using the official and indisputable multiplier of Super Saiyan, we have SSGSS being something like 300. Even if SSGSS was as strong as SSG, using the regular kaioken on top of that would make Goku at least “over 12”, which doesn’t jive well with Beerus’ superiority over 10x or 20x kaioken even as far as the Tournament of Power went. Of course, the numbers given by Toriyama himself worked within the context of the movie (Beerus using about 70% of his full power), as well as the 50-fold figure on Freeza’s fight, but it doesn’t mean they are perfectly adjustable to a different sequence of events. That’s what I mean.

About the discussion at hand. No, the episode in which Goku fights Beerus as a regular Super Saiyan has a totally different title “This is every ounce of power I have! The Battle of Gods’ conclusion!”. The episode that has the title “Goku, Surpass the Super Saiyan God!” has Goku fighting almost entirely on his Super Saiyan God form, the regular Super Saiyan just appeared in the final minutes. And during their conversation, none knew what happened with Goku, he just didn’t feel like he was any weaker. Regardless, he didn’t keep that power when he went to train with Whis.

Still, I don’t understand how you know which form of Vegetto Goku was thinking when he compared himself with Beerus. He doesn’t tell much. Either way, we have two Saiyan girls surpassing Super Saiyan God with Potara and they weren’t even using Super Saiyan, so there is nothing clear. This is just some factoid you are making up.

Both the entire 6-10-15 godscale and and claim that Beerus used 70% of his power got removed in Super, it should be obvious by now. At the end of the BoG arc, Beerus said that he lied about using that much strength against Goku and Vegeta and that in really he didn't even use 1%. This fits right in with the official multipliers for SSJ forms.

It doesn't matter which form of Vegito Goku was talking about because the point was that Vegito at all was no match for Beerus. Goku's knows Vegito's full power so its clear that SSJ3 Vegito is weaker than SSG Goku, if it wasn't then Goku would has chose to fuse instead.

Bringing up Kale and Caulifla is a false comparison because both of them are stronger than Cabba, who in the Champa arc was shown to be stronger than SSG Goku from Battle of Gods. So base Kefla being stronger than current SSG Goku makes sense.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:17 pm

blain218 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The 50 fold figure regardless of the fact that it came out "almost 10 years ago"(which in the grand scheme of things really isn't that long at all.) These are still official multipliers that make sense within the series. 20x Kaioken wasn't enough against Freeza but SSJ was so naturally it makes sense that this official multiplier is accurate.

The narrator, Beerus AND the episode title make it abundantly clear that Goku as a Super Saiyan surpassed SSG. The title is something along the lines of "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" the narrator states that he has surpassed a Super Saiyan God, and Beerus confirms it. They were referring to his normal super saiyan form because that was the form he was using at the time during that entire episode. The bit about surpassing SSG is made extremely clear to the audience well before Super Saiyan Blue makes an appearance.

Goku said that Fusion wouldn't be enough against this suppressed Beerus. Goku knows that fusion wouldn't be enough and he could easily go SSJ3 as part of Vegetto. and then Beerus uses more power and he fights evenly with him as a Super Saiyan God.

The series makes it extremely clear if you want to deny it for some reason that is your own choice.
blain218 wrote:It doesn't matter how old a source is, its still an official source. And they all say SSJ is a 50x boost whether you like it of not.

Goku is never wrong when estimating people's power and he is one half of Vegito, so he knows full well what SSJ3 Vegito is capable of. And since even Goku says that SSJ3 Vegtio is still weaker than suppressed Beerus then its a fact.
Let’s simplify this. We have Toriyama directly giving numbers to Super Saiyan God (6) and Beerus (10) back in a Battle of Gods’ comic. Using the official and indisputable multiplier of Super Saiyan, we have SSGSS being something like 300. Even if SSGSS was as strong as SSG, using the regular kaioken on top of that would make Goku at least “over 12”, which doesn’t jive well with Beerus’ superiority over 10x or 20x kaioken even as far as the Tournament of Power went. Of course, the numbers given by Toriyama himself worked within the context of the movie (Beerus using about 70% of his full power), as well as the 50-fold figure on Freeza’s fight, but it doesn’t mean they are perfectly adjustable to a different sequence of events. That’s what I mean.

About the discussion at hand. No, the episode in which Goku fights Beerus as a regular Super Saiyan has a totally different title “This is every ounce of power I have! The Battle of Gods’ conclusion!”. The episode that has the title “Goku, Surpass the Super Saiyan God!” has Goku fighting almost entirely on his Super Saiyan God form, the regular Super Saiyan just appeared in the final minutes. And during their conversation, none knew what happened with Goku, he just didn’t feel like he was any weaker. Regardless, he didn’t keep that power when he went to train with Whis.

Still, I don’t understand how you know which form of Vegetto Goku was thinking when he compared himself with Beerus. He doesn’t tell much. Either way, we have two Saiyan girls surpassing Super Saiyan God with Potara and they weren’t even using Super Saiyan, so there is nothing clear. This is just some factoid you are making up.

Both the entire 6-10-15 godscale and and claim that Beerus used 70% of his power got removed in Super, it should be obvious by now. At the end of the BoG arc, Beerus said that he lied about using that much strength against Goku and Vegeta and that in really he didn't even use 1%. This fits right in with the official multipliers for SSJ forms.

It doesn't matter which form of Vegito Goku was talking about because the point was that Vegito at all was no match for Beerus. Goku's knows Vegito's full power so its clear that SSJ3 Vegito is weaker than SSG Goku, if it wasn't then Goku would has chose to fuse instead.

Bringing up Kale and Caulifla is a false comparison because both of them are stronger than Cabba, who in the Champa arc was shown to be stronger than SSG Goku from Battle of Gods. So base Kefla being stronger than current SSG Goku makes sense.
Dude we keep making like the same responses to this guy lol. Good points good points. Nice to have somebody agree with me for once.

But yeah ultimately Kale and Caulifla being stronger than Goku as a SSG from BoG makes sense when you consider that Cabba had done it prior to them. So if anybody has a problem with any of it then it should be with how strong Cabba is not how the girls got so strong

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:41 pm

It's interesting that you prefer to disregard numbers given directly by Toriyama, yet clinging to others given by guidebooks. By the way, Beerus never said anything about using less than 1% of his full power.
PFM18 wrote: yeah in episode 13 they talk about Goku Surpassing Super Saiyan God and how he surpassed it as a regular Super Saiyan. The title is "Goku, Go Beyond Super Saiyan God" because at the end of the episode he surpassed Super Saiyan God as a SSJ. The narrator at the end of the episode reiterates this while goku is in golden SSJ and Beerus makes a similar comment. How do you possibly come to the conclusion that this power wasn't kept when he went to train with Whis? This was never stated nor implied at any point
The title of the episode implies nothing of the sort. The Crunchyroll subs has none talking about Goku surpassing Super Saiyan God in the regular Super Saiyan form, but rather Goku did it in the Super Saiyan God form itself, as Beerus was about to say goodbye to him. After realizing something is off, Beerus speculates that the power of SSG is still present in Goku, even if the form itself is not visible. The narrator doesn't say nothing about "surpassing" either, he only says Goku and Beerus have become gods of battle or some fighting fools whose blows wield power capable of destroying the universe. Even the post-credit scene doesn't touch on this, Goku only says that even if his SSG powers are gone he won't let Beerus destroy the Earth and its people. That's all in episode 13. Also, Goku not kepting permantly the powerlevel of SSG was outright suggested by Whis in Goku's first night on Beerus' Planet. Just check from minute 17:38 to 18:10.
blain218 wrote: Bringing up Kale and Caulifla is a false comparison because both of them are stronger than Cabba, who in the Champa arc was shown to be stronger than SSG Goku from Battle of Gods. So base Kefla being stronger than current SSG Goku makes sense.
PFM18 wrote:But yeah ultimately Kale and Caulifla being stronger than Goku as a SSG from BoG makes sense when you consider that Cabba had done it prior to them. So if anybody has a problem with any of it then it should be with how strong Cabba is not how the girls got so strong
Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale, counting their regular states, or at best you could say they are all even. If the SSG form is stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto, how is it possible that Base Kefla surpassed SSG? Was SSG Goku so tired that he got a tiny fraction of his strength left or Kefla was a far more special case than Vegetto? Something doesn't seem right here.
Dude we keep making like the same responses to this guy lol. Good points good points. Nice to have somebody agree with me for once.
Nice thing you found a friend, but don't go thinking that you are absolutely correct just because you have someone else sharing your opinion. Most of people here don't want to engage on pointless back-and-forths. With time, you will realize that.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by blain218 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:50 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:It's interesting that you prefer to disregard numbers given directly by Toriyama, yet clinging to others given by guidebooks. By the way, Beerus never said anything about using less than 1% of his full power.
PFM18 wrote: yeah in episode 13 they talk about Goku Surpassing Super Saiyan God and how he surpassed it as a regular Super Saiyan. The title is "Goku, Go Beyond Super Saiyan God" because at the end of the episode he surpassed Super Saiyan God as a SSJ. The narrator at the end of the episode reiterates this while goku is in golden SSJ and Beerus makes a similar comment. How do you possibly come to the conclusion that this power wasn't kept when he went to train with Whis? This was never stated nor implied at any point
The title of the episode implies nothing of the sort. The Crunchyroll subs has none talking about Goku surpassing Super Saiyan God in the regular Super Saiyan form, but rather Goku did it in the Super Saiyan God form itself, as Beerus was about to say goodbye to him. After realizing something is off, Beerus speculates that the power of SSG is still present in Goku, even if the form itself is not visible. The narrator doesn't say nothing about "surpassing" either, he only says Goku and Beerus have become gods of battle or some fighting fools whose blows wield power capable of destroying the universe. Even the post-credit scene doesn't touch on this, Goku only says that even if his SSG powers are gone he won't let Beerus destroy the Earth and its people. That's all in episode 13. Also, Goku not kepting permantly the powerlevel of SSG was outright suggested by Whis in Goku's first night on Beerus' Planet. Just check from minute 17:38 to 18:10.
blain218 wrote: Bringing up Kale and Caulifla is a false comparison because both of them are stronger than Cabba, who in the Champa arc was shown to be stronger than SSG Goku from Battle of Gods. So base Kefla being stronger than current SSG Goku makes sense.
PFM18 wrote:But yeah ultimately Kale and Caulifla being stronger than Goku as a SSG from BoG makes sense when you consider that Cabba had done it prior to them. So if anybody has a problem with any of it then it should be with how strong Cabba is not how the girls got so strong
Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale, counting their regular states, or at best you could say they are all even. If the SSG form is stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto, how is it possible that Base Kefla surpassed SSG? Was SSG Goku so tired that he got a tiny fraction of his strength left or Kefla was a far more special case than Vegetto? Something doesn't seem right here.
Dude we keep making like the same responses to this guy lol. Good points good points. Nice to have somebody agree with me for once.
Nice thing you found a friend, but don't go thinking that you are absolutely correct just because you have someone else sharing your opinion. Most of people here don't want to engage on pointless back-and-forths. With time, you will realize that.
Potara fusion is the max power of both partners multiplied by tens if times. Kale in her mastered state was shown to be relative to SSG Goku when fighting, so when you combine that with Cauilfla's full power and multiply that, base Kefla being stronger than SSG Goku makes sense.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:01 pm

blain218 wrote:Potara fusion is the max power of both partners multiplied by tens if times. Kale in her mastered state was shown to be relative to SSG Goku when fighting, so when you combine that with Cauilfla's full power and multiply that, base Kefla being stronger than SSG Goku makes sense.
For all the time I've been here I never saw anything like this being ever implied. Can you back up what you just said? So, Vegetto here would be tens of times stronger than Ultra Instinct in just his regular form? How Goku can even do this math?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:47 am

Hugo Boss wrote:It's interesting that you prefer to disregard numbers given directly by Toriyama, yet clinging to others given by guidebooks. By the way, Beerus never said anything about using less than 1% of his full power.
PFM18 wrote: yeah in episode 13 they talk about Goku Surpassing Super Saiyan God and how he surpassed it as a regular Super Saiyan. The title is "Goku, Go Beyond Super Saiyan God" because at the end of the episode he surpassed Super Saiyan God as a SSJ. The narrator at the end of the episode reiterates this while goku is in golden SSJ and Beerus makes a similar comment. How do you possibly come to the conclusion that this power wasn't kept when he went to train with Whis? This was never stated nor implied at any point
The title of the episode implies nothing of the sort. The Crunchyroll subs has none talking about Goku surpassing Super Saiyan God in the regular Super Saiyan form, but rather Goku did it in the Super Saiyan God form itself, as Beerus was about to say goodbye to him. After realizing something is off, Beerus speculates that the power of SSG is still present in Goku, even if the form itself is not visible. The narrator doesn't say nothing about "surpassing" either, he only says Goku and Beerus have become gods of battle or some fighting fools whose blows wield power capable of destroying the universe. Even the post-credit scene doesn't touch on this, Goku only says that even if his SSG powers are gone he won't let Beerus destroy the Earth and its people. That's all in episode 13. Also, Goku not kepting permantly the powerlevel of SSG was outright suggested by Whis in Goku's first night on Beerus' Planet. Just check from minute 17:38 to 18:10.
blain218 wrote: Bringing up Kale and Caulifla is a false comparison because both of them are stronger than Cabba, who in the Champa arc was shown to be stronger than SSG Goku from Battle of Gods. So base Kefla being stronger than current SSG Goku makes sense.
PFM18 wrote:But yeah ultimately Kale and Caulifla being stronger than Goku as a SSG from BoG makes sense when you consider that Cabba had done it prior to them. So if anybody has a problem with any of it then it should be with how strong Cabba is not how the girls got so strong
Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Caulifla and Kale, counting their regular states, or at best you could say they are all even. If the SSG form is stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto, how is it possible that Base Kefla surpassed SSG? Was SSG Goku so tired that he got a tiny fraction of his strength left or Kefla was a far more special case than Vegetto? Something doesn't seem right here.
Dude we keep making like the same responses to this guy lol. Good points good points. Nice to have somebody agree with me for once.
Nice thing you found a friend, but don't go thinking that you are absolutely correct just because you have someone else sharing your opinion. Most of people here don't want to engage on pointless back-and-forths. With time, you will realize that.
Yes...guidebooks with information directly from Toriyama. Additionally, the numbers you are referring to were blatantly retconned so I am not sure why you are so adamant about this. I never said that Beerus said he used less than 1% of his power? What?

I apologize I thought that I remembered the narrator making a comment about Goku surpassing SSG but the title of the episode is still "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" in the episode that he starts using regular super saiyan. Beerus explicitly said that the power "completely fused" with him. Dont you think that that it would be strange if this power was going to go away when it "completely fused with him"? Beerus even made a comment about being surprised that there was no time limit. How exactly did Whis suggest that Goku didn't retain the SSG power? don't recall this?

Wasn't it already established that Goku's gain in power is now manifested in an increase in power in all forms? Hence his SSJ being >= to his SSG? That isn't actually an example of the SSG power being lesser than the potara because Goku didn't actually receive the power up then he received it during the actual ritual and after he retained the strength in his normal Super Saiyan form

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:17 am

PFM18 wrote: Yes...guidebooks with information directly from Toriyama. Additionally, the numbers you are referring to were blatantly retconned so I am not sure why you are so adamant about this. I never said that Beerus said he used less than 1% of his power? What?
It’s very simple. If they come from the same source, why pick and chose what counts and what not? Instead, I guess they are all situational and don’t represent the entirity of the series, specially Dragon Ball Super. And it was your friend that said that, not you.
I apologize I thought that I remembered the narrator making a comment about Goku surpassing SSG but the title of the episode is still "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" in the episode that he starts using regular super saiyan. Beerus explicitly said that the power "completely fused" with him. Dont you think that that it would be strange if this power was going to go away when it "completely fused with him"? Beerus even made a comment about being surprised that there was no time limit. How exactly did Whis suggest that Goku didn't retain the SSG power? don't recall this?
The title implies something that might happen in the episode, not something so specific like Goku surpassing SSG in a specific form. If you pay attention to the dialogue, you will see Beerus is only speculating, it’s not like he fully understands what is happening, he wants to play cool. Whis suggests Goku doesn’t have the powerlevel of a god (while comparing those trees), which contradicts the notion that he has SSG’s power available. You can use the timeframe I provided you to see the explanation.
Wasn't it already established that Goku's gain in power is now manifested in an increase in power in all forms? Hence his SSJ being >= to his SSG? That isn't actually an example of the SSG power being lesser than the potara because Goku didn't actually receive the power up then he received it during the actual ritual and after he retained the strength in his normal Super Saiyan form
Even if Goku’s current SS is stronger than the first time he used SSG, his current SSG should be proportionally much stronger, just like you implied in your first sentence. Are you implying the Potara and the SSG boosts are variable, making Potara now superior?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:06 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
blain218 wrote:Potara fusion is the max power of both partners multiplied by tens if times. Kale in her mastered state was shown to be relative to SSG Goku when fighting, so when you combine that with Cauilfla's full power and multiply that, base Kefla being stronger than SSG Goku makes sense.
For all the time I've been here I never saw anything like this being ever implied. Can you back up what you just said? So, Vegetto here would be tens of times stronger than Ultra Instinct in just his regular form? How Goku can even do this math?
Just to chip in, Goku did say that Kefla's base power and speed was far greater then when they were just two combatants, and the dialogue relating to the multiplier comes from Vados who says that there power is "more than the sums of their parts and their power increases tens of time over".

The thing I think Kefla's showing against a slightly worn down SSG Goku, is how in the anime(which Super is a continuation of) base Vegetto is more than capable of keeping up with a restrained Buuhan, who was toying around with them in their SS(or SS2, its a little unclear) forms.

In the manga, this is reciprocated in the FT arc, when base Vegetto blows a huge hole through merged Zamasu fairly easily, something that SSB Goku and Vegeta both were capable of, but had trouble doing.

I think whats important to consider here, isn't the multiplier of SSG, but how Caulifla and Kale were fairing against SSG Goku before fusion, as an incatior of how they would fair against SSG Goku as a fused character. Since Goku was actually having a slight bit of trouble with Kale before she fused with Caulifla, I think it makes sense that a character that is not only them put together, but vastly stronger, would be capable of pushing the offensive against a tired SSG Goku.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:40 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
blain218 wrote:Potara fusion is the max power of both partners multiplied by tens if times. Kale in her mastered state was shown to be relative to SSG Goku when fighting, so when you combine that with Cauilfla's full power and multiply that, base Kefla being stronger than SSG Goku makes sense.
For all the time I've been here I never saw anything like this being ever implied. Can you back up what you just said? So, Vegetto here would be tens of times stronger than Ultra Instinct in just his regular form? How Goku can even do this math?
Just to chip in, Goku did say that Kefla's base power and speed was far greater then when they were just two combatants, and the dialogue relating to the multiplier comes from Vados who says that there power is "more than the sums of their parts and their power increases tens of time over".

The thing I think Kefla's showing against a slightly worn down SSG Goku, is how in the anime(which Super is a continuation of) base Vegetto is more than capable of keeping up with a restrained Buuhan, who was toying around with them in their SS(or SS2, its a little unclear) forms.

In the manga, this is reciprocated in the FT arc, when base Vegetto blows a huge hole through merged Zamasu fairly easily, something that SSB Goku and Vegeta both were capable of, but had trouble doing.

I think whats important to consider here, isn't the multiplier of SSG, but how Caulifla and Kale were fairing against SSG Goku before fusion, as an incatior of how they would fair against SSG Goku as a fused character. Since Goku was actually having a slight bit of trouble with Kale before she fused with Caulifla, I think it makes sense that a character that is not only them put together, but vastly stronger, would be capable of pushing the offensive against a tired SSG Goku.
The point is that Vados’ explanation considers the whole fusion, she doesn’t tell us that the regular form will be more powerful than the best transformation the Saiyans have available. Imagine that Caulifla can use SSG, she would probably be very close to Goku, like with SS2. Yet when she fuses with Kale she doesn’t even need Super Saiyan to overpower him. I believe the same could probably happen with Vegetto too, as you cited in the manga.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:21 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Yes...guidebooks with information directly from Toriyama. Additionally, the numbers you are referring to were blatantly retconned so I am not sure why you are so adamant about this. I never said that Beerus said he used less than 1% of his power? What?
It’s very simple. If they come from the same source, why pick and chose what counts and what not? Instead, I guess they are all situational and don’t represent the entirity of the series, specially Dragon Ball Super. And it was your friend that said that, not you.
I apologize I thought that I remembered the narrator making a comment about Goku surpassing SSG but the title of the episode is still "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" in the episode that he starts using regular super saiyan. Beerus explicitly said that the power "completely fused" with him. Dont you think that that it would be strange if this power was going to go away when it "completely fused with him"? Beerus even made a comment about being surprised that there was no time limit. How exactly did Whis suggest that Goku didn't retain the SSG power? don't recall this?
The title implies something that might happen in the episode, not something so specific like Goku surpassing SSG in a specific form. If you pay attention to the dialogue, you will see Beerus is only speculating, it’s not like he fully understands what is happening, he wants to play cool. Whis suggests Goku doesn’t have the powerlevel of a god (while comparing those trees), which contradicts the notion that he has SSG’s power available. You can use the timeframe I provided you to see the explanation.
Wasn't it already established that Goku's gain in power is now manifested in an increase in power in all forms? Hence his SSJ being >= to his SSG? That isn't actually an example of the SSG power being lesser than the potara because Goku didn't actually receive the power up then he received it during the actual ritual and after he retained the strength in his normal Super Saiyan form
Even if Goku’s current SS is stronger than the first time he used SSG, his current SSG should be proportionally much stronger, just like you implied in your first sentence. Are you implying the Potara and the SSG boosts are variable, making Potara now superior?
Obviously it is very simple. However, you are oversimplifying it. it isn't just purely about where the information came from. one of them was clearly retconned and is no longer relevant to the current story and wasn't even spoken regarding Super but instead Z. Beerus was using less than 1% of his power and that is made obvious but he didn't explicitly state it.

It discusses the episode in which Goku surpasses Super Saiyan God. How did he surpass it? he absorbed the god power into his golden SSJ form. Dude, the fact that Whis makes a comment about them being weak compared to the gods does not even remotely imply that Goku lost the God power. Rather, it serves to reinforce the idea that the "6-10-15" scale was retconned and SSG is irrelevant to Beerus. Beerus is magnitudes stronger than Goku whether it be SSG or SSB. He thousands of times stronger since episodes 13 and 14 and only then has he surpassed Beerus when he attains the legendary ability of moving without thinking aka "Ultra Instinct."

No they are not proportional because Goku received a boost to all of his normal forms because the God ki was infused within him to be normal ki. the current boost that Goku recieves from SSG is just from the fact that now he is utilizing God ki. And it is furthered when he uses the "power of a God that is a Super Saiyan" or SSGSS. the boost Goku gained made him atleast 10,000x stronger upon obtaining God Ki for the first time during BoG but now it is just like another transformation in his disposal that isn't neccessarily a huge boost.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:18 pm

PFM18 wrote: Beerus was using less than 1% of his power and that is made obvious but he didn't explicitly state it.

Beerus using less than 1% of his full strength in a fight he had dreamed about only makes sense in your calcs.
It discusses the episode in which Goku surpasses Super Saiyan God. How did he surpass it? he absorbed the god power into his golden SSJ form. Dude, the fact that Whis makes a comment about them being weak compared to the gods does not even remotely imply that Goku lost the God power. Rather, it serves to reinforce the idea that the "6-10-15" scale was retconned and SSG is irrelevant to Beerus. Beerus is magnitudes stronger than Goku whether it be SSG or SSB. He thousands of times stronger since episodes 13 and 14 and only then has he surpassed Beerus when he attains the legendary ability of moving without thinking aka "Ultra Instinct."
I think you are twisting some things here. Goku doesn’t literally become stronger than SSG in the SS form. Check episode 13 again, forget the title. Or better check this thread. Read particularly the input given by a fluent Japanese speaker on Vegeta’s line on episode 15. There he explains “surpassing” has a different connotation than literally getting stronger than a determined level. Besides, SSG was stated to be as much of a god as the name suggests, so connect the dots.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:55 pm

Goku doesn’t literally become stronger than SSG in the SS form
Believe whatever you want but the series does the best it can to illustrate that SSJ(post BoG)=SSG if not >. Beerus talks about the power infusing inside of him, the episode title, Goku saying he doesn't feel any weaker upon being in normal Super Saiyan, Goku performing just as well against Beerus during his time as a golden SSJ. I mean you can deny it for some reason if you want

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:48 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Goku doesn’t literally become stronger than SSG in the SS form
Believe whatever you want but the series does the best it can to illustrate that SSJ(post BoG)=SSG if not >. Beerus talks about the power infusing inside of him, the episode title, Goku saying he doesn't feel any weaker upon being in normal Super Saiyan, Goku performing just as well against Beerus during his time as a golden SSJ. I mean you can deny it for some reason if you want
Tbh I feel it has been retconned in a way. Toriyama flat out said Goku wouldn't go SSG again because he absorbed the power, but now he is going SSG again and to back that argument up he never absorbed SSG in the manga and base and ssj Goku are having trouble with people who shouldn't even be close to BoG SSG tier.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:53 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Goku doesn’t literally become stronger than SSG in the SS form
Believe whatever you want but the series does the best it can to illustrate that SSJ(post BoG)=SSG if not >. Beerus talks about the power infusing inside of him, the episode title, Goku saying he doesn't feel any weaker upon being in normal Super Saiyan, Goku performing just as well against Beerus during his time as a golden SSJ. I mean you can deny it for some reason if you want
Tbh I feel it has been retconned in a way. Toriyama flat out said Goku wouldn't go SSG again because he absorbed the power, but now he is going SSG again and to back that argument up he never absorbed SSG in the manga and base and ssj Goku are having trouble with people who shouldn't even be close to BoG SSG tier.
Because Goku became equal or > in SSJ he doesnt neccessarily have to be stronger than SSG in base. His SSJ was supposed to he equal to it so unless Goku got 50x stronger his base should still be weaker than SSG

And we have no reason to think that Gokus opponents shouldnt be BoG tier because at the end of the day we dont know these characters and they are the strongest in their respective entire universes so they should be very strong

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:55 pm

Beerus's power was retconned a hundred times.
In the movies, he used 70% of his power against SsjG Goku (who's now trash) and he could have lost to ROF SsjB Goku and Vegeta (who are now trash).

Then:
1) He's stated to be stronger than SsjB KKx10 Goku.
2) In the anime, he says he can easily beat Merged Zamasu.
3) In the manga, SsjB FP Vegeta (who's equal to manga Merged Zamasu) was literally one-shotted by him.
4) He's above everyone who partecipated in the ToP, excluding MUI Goku and Jiren.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:15 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:Beerus's power was retconned a hundred times.
In the movies, he used 70% of his power against SsjG Goku (who's now trash) and he could have lost to ROF SsjB Goku and Vegeta (who are now trash).

Then:
1) He's stated to be stronger than SsjB KKx10 Goku.
2) In the anime, he says he can easily beat Merged Zamasu.
3) In the manga, SsjB FP Vegeta (who's equal to manga Merged Zamasu) was literally one-shotted by him.
4) He's above everyone who partecipated in the ToP, excluding MUI Goku and Jiren.
Yeah the Movies shouldn't be used as a measuring stick anymore for sure. That was made with no idea of Super in mind. Now Beerus is magnitudes stronger than SSG not 40% stronger. But I mean it was only retconned from the BoG movie it wasn't done again.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:16 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Goku doesn’t literally become stronger than SSG in the SS form
Believe whatever you want
This is not a nice way to put it. Just to be clear, I don’t care if you or some other people have a different opinion than mine. We don’t have to agree. The issue is about how you present your view. I’m just doing my best to contribute to this thread, which is checking the legal source and the input from fluent Japanese speakers about the discussion at hand and bringing them up. You decide if you agree or not.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by blain218 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:22 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:Beerus's power was retconned a hundred times.
In the movies, he used 70% of his power against SsjG Goku (who's now trash) and he could have lost to ROF SsjB Goku and Vegeta (who are now trash).

Then:
1) He's stated to be stronger than SsjB KKx10 Goku.
2) In the anime, he says he can easily beat Merged Zamasu.
3) In the manga, SsjB FP Vegeta (who's equal to manga Merged Zamasu) was literally one-shotted by him.
4) He's above everyone who partecipated in the ToP, excluding MUI Goku and Jiren.
Beerus power was only retconned once

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