The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Wouldn't be mentioning that Goku surpassed the other warriors like Vegeta, Piccolo serve as a better compliment than mentioning the outdated Ginyu then?

That wouldn’t work because Vegeta was not among his soldiers anymore, while Ginyu was his best. And he already was tired of Piccolo and the others.

[ahill1]

Wouldn't be mentioning that Goku surpassed the other warriors like Vegeta, Piccolo serve as a better compliment than mentioning the outdated Ginyu then?

That wouldn’t work because Vegeta was not among his soldiers anymore, while Ginyu was his best. And he already was tired of Piccolo and the others.

So you say that, since Ginyu is still Freeza's soldier (or was, since Freeza likely assumed he was killed... or at least ran away), comparing Goku to Ginyu was already a way to get Goku to his side? Hmm, that can work, but the comparison with Ginyu seems still a bit forced, I'd say. As far as Freeza knows, Goku hadn't even interacted with Captain Ginyu, since Freeza was out when Jheese went there to report to Ginyu how there was a mysterious fighter who defeated all the Ginyu Force sans him and Ginyu... to which the Captain was relieved Freeza wasn't there, that way not getting ashamed before him. Granted that Freeza found strange how the Ginyu force was defeated by them, but in his short scuffle with Vegeta, Freeza read his power in his scouter and saw how he reached at least a plateau of power of 250,000 (going with V-Jump), which is a battle power more than enough to deal with the Ginyu-force. So, even if Freeza was already, at that moment, intending to lure Goku to his side, a comparison with Vegeta would flow better, since it's a fighter Freeza is 100% sure Goku does know about, besides the fact that it's not so hard for him to assume Goku knew about Vegeta's battle power considering he knew how the other ones could sense chi, as evidenced by the fact that everyone was aware about how powerful his 1st form --and subsequent ones -- were... so Goku knowing about their power would not be -- and should not -- come off as strange to him.

Furthermore, later, when Freeza was flat out trying to lure Goku to his side, he stated how Goku could do a better job than Ginyu -- and that one was a comparison that I'd qualify as flowing better with the strongest soldier of his, since he was comparing Goku's capability of serving him, to which it'd make more sense to trace a comparison with someone who's Freeza's soldier... the example displayed above, though, is different, and it seemed Freeza was merely surprised with Goku's fighting prowess, and comparing that to someone who'd better justify Goku's fighting capabilities, to which a comparison with even Goku's son, whose official battle power is 200,000 --and much more upon being healed -- would flow better.

I am not saying Ginyu is stronger than Gohan, much less Vegeta and Piccolo, since that'd be absurd... I'd just probably chalk that up to a Toriyama's inconsistency, or maybe slightly bad choose of words, much like when Tsuru was still comparing the power Goku used to clobber Kuririn in the 22nd Budokai (to which even Kame-sennin admitted being 'maybe' eclipsed by such power) as maybe enough to deal with his brother, or how Babidi wondered whether Spopovich and Yamu took the energy of hundreds of people upon seeing the meter being filed up to almost half, which was necessary power of SSJ2 magnitude to accomplish such, even though Cell had to absorb thousands of people get him from > SSJ Vegeta to ~#16... I'd probably qualify such in the same category as those, in where we can also seen "badly choose of words" even as far as the end of Boo saga, but I'll not get there now.

[nickzambuto]

If Super Perfect Cell can bust the solar system, what does that say about his speed?

[ahill1]

I dunno... is there some correlation to his speed?

But frankly speaking, the feats related to Dragon Ball (mainly the speed ones) are shown to be highly inconsistent throughout the manga.

Firstly, we have Goku, as far as the Pilaf saga, using his NyoiBo to get Mr. Rabbit and his gang to the moon, and apparently that took at most a few minutes... yet we see later that it was taking some time for the NyoiBo to get Goku to Kami's temple, whose distance to the "Earth" shouldn't even come close to moon's distance to the Earth, which according to an interview with Toriyama, is consistent with "real life".

We also have in the 21st Budokai, Kame-sennin destroying the moon with his KMHMH, a feat unmatched by subsequent ones in the Dragon Ball series (even by Piccolo's special attack in the 23rd Budokai), and Tenshinhan's Kikoho, stated by Roshi to have many times the power of a KMHMH, performing a feat as 'puny' as blowing up the Budokai arena, which was seen by Kame-sennin as a pretty impressive one, looking terrified at the arena blown up and stating the KMHMH couldn't even begin comparing to that... really, Roshi? You destroyed the moon 3 years ago, and even before that, when you hadn't, apparently, even the power enough to move that huge rock Kuririn and Goku did, you could already make a freaking mountain with its castle go poof, both feats who'd seem more impressive than Tenshinhan' one...

Regarding the speed feat, back in the Raditz saga, we have Piccolo Junior weighted, whose power should topple around 329, destroying the moon with a generic chi blast, which, according to the anime, took mere seconds to land in there... and yet Raditz was able to dodge a way faster and more powerful special attack from Piccolo, to which even this latter was flabbergasted with Raditz's speed to dodge such attack. Yet later, we have the Z warriors, who by far eclipsed even the Makankosappo's battle power, being all pretty surprised by Son Goku's ability of traveling through distances of 10,00 kms in mere seconds, which should logically be already accomplished by anyone there if we took the aforementioned feat at face value... or maybe how Gotenks took one minute to get to Boo's house, even though at the speed of light (he should be way faster at that if we take Piccolo's Makankosappo as being already such)...

So, I am of the opinion that we can accurateky calculate the speed of the main characters in the Dragon Ball Universe, as many feats are shown to be pretty inconsistent and ignored as the series moves-on... but it seems, if we consider DBS, that the first character to have light speed was Dyspo, although I can be wrong since my memory of such series is foggy.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Like which? Vegeta being cocky that he could win a tournament without becoming SSJ with Piccolo and 18 participating? When he showed to be somewhat impressed that Kaioshin can deal with Freeza easily?

Saying Vegeta is cocky to disregard him is a cop out. Even at his arrogance's peak (Android Arc) he still knew it wouldn't be worth it to fave #20 head on after #19 sucked his energy. Back on Namek he also wanted no piece of the Ginyus nor Freeza back on Namek until he was strong enough. Vegeta's words re also backed up by Gohan also willing to fight in base even though he wanted to win the Budokai.

Him being "somewhat" impressed by Shin is nothing compared to Shin being astonished by Base Vegeta, sweating bullets and stuttering that they couldn't be that strong.

You also left out Trunks being able to tango with 18 in the Mighty Mask suit and Dabra calling Base Saiyans "Marvelous energy" and lumping Piccolo with Kuririn as "trash"

[ahill1]

Yeah, there sure are evidences for the base Saiyajins being hella strong in the Boo saga, but are them strong enough to ditch out a direct statement from Beerus in the BoG, where he was apparently sensing base Goku and that was, obviously, supervised by Akira Toriyama? I wonder.

I dunno if implications, as strong as they are, can eclipse a direct statement on the matter.

[Noah]

Saying Vegeta is cocky to disregard him is a cop out. Even at his arrogance's peak (Android Arc) he still knew it wouldn't be worth it to fave #20 head on after #19 sucked his energy. Back on Namek he also wanted no piece of the Ginyus nor Freeza back on Namek until he was strong enough. Vegeta's words re also backed up by Gohan also willing to fight in base even though he wanted to win the Budokai. Him being "somewhat" impressed by Shin is nothing compared to Shin being astonished by Base Vegeta, sweating bullets and stuttering that they couldn't be that strong. You also left out Trunks being able to tango with 18 in the Mighty Mask suit and Dabra calling Base Saiyans "Marvelous energy" and lumping Piccolo with Kuririn as "trash"

Is not a cop out as he either could be just trash talking or having some kind of strategy to ring out foes stronger than him without SSJ. Really? Well, show me Gohan backing up Vegeta on that then.

Shin being 'astonished' by Vegeta is just him understimating the Saiyans like he does for all that Babidi Spaceship quest.

The only reason Goten and Trunks were able to 'tango' 18 in the beginning was because she was holding back, knowing kill is not allowed in the Tenkaichi Budokai. Are you trying to say Base Goten/Trunks are stronger than the androids? That's just ridiculous. If so, then after turning into SSJ 'Might Mask' would just stomp her and win the match in no time.

Oh yea, like Dabura was basically measuring them for their normal suppressed state when he couldn't felt their potential based on that

[Hugo Boss]

Wouldn't be mentioning that Goku surpassed the other warriors like Vegeta, Piccolo serve as a better compliment than mentioning the outdated Ginyu then?

That wouldn’t work because Vegeta was not among his soldiers anymore, while Ginyu was his best. And he already was tired of Piccolo and the others.

So you say that, since Ginyu is still Freeza's soldier (or was, since Freeza likely assumed he was killed... or at least ran away), comparing Goku to Ginyu was already a way to get Goku to his side?
[...]

I’m saying Freeza didn’t bother to use his motivation lectures with Vegeta and the others, because he already despised them. So, comparing Goku with Vegeta or Piccolo would sound (in lack of a better word) weird coming from Freeza, since he had zero respect for them (Ginyu is still a “nearly zero”). Besides, Goku always makes his foes interested when they are starting to interact with him, so the scene seems consistent for me.

[ahill1]

That wouldn’t work because Vegeta was not among his soldiers anymore, while Ginyu was his best. And he already was tired of Piccolo and the others.

So you say that, since Ginyu is still Freeza's soldier (or was, since Freeza likely assumed he was killed... or at least ran away), comparing Goku to Ginyu was already a way to get Goku to his side?
[...]

I’m saying Freeza didn’t bother to use his motivation lectures with Vegeta and the others, because he already despised them. So, comparing Goku with Vegeta or Piccolo would sound (in lack of a better word) weird coming from Freeza, since he had zero respect for them (Ginyu is still a “nearly zero”). Besides, Goku always makes his foes interested when they are starting to interact with him, so the scene seems consistent for me.

I get it, but what Freeza was saying/the way he worded out his statement is a little different. Reading it again, I would say it's not simply a matter of comparing Goku to someone else, but also a matter about implying Goku was the 1st one to surpass Captain Ginyu:


"To think there was anybody stronger than Ginyu in this World"


It just comes off to me as Freeza simply realizing Ginyu was surpassed upon experiencing Goku's power first hand and (when going solely by the statement) that wasn't something he thought when fighting the Saiyajin Prince and the Super Namekuseijin...

Of course they surpassed Ginyu as well, going by the numbers given in the series, which is why I think it was a bad choice of words by Toriyama himself... that wasn't him simply bringing Ginyu to make Goku appear incredible, it also seemed to be some sort of realization that Ginyu was finally surpassed, looking at the statement again. But I think, in Universe, you could say Freeza just didn't say the same with Piccolo (when he fought him before) because he despised him (I am using your "he despised him" argument, but in a slight different way), although I still think Freeza comparing Piccolo to Ginyu wouldn't come off as, like, off character considering he was rather impressed by Piccolo's ability and seemed to compliment him more than once, like when he said Piccolo's way stronger than he imagined and that he then decided to use his full power, as well as asking him his forgiveness for underestimating him... well, not much of a compliment, but I think that statement would fit in that situation even though he apparently didn't seem to interact with Piccolo in the same way he did with Goku, probably because of this latter's attitude when he isn't so much annoyed at his opponent (Goku was a little annoyed, but not to the point of flat out ignoring Freeza, since the guy Freeza just killed wasn't his friend or a guy he looked up to, was rather one he still hated... he admired his pride and wanted to fight him agajn, but that's about it)...

So yeah, I am perfectly fine with using an in Universe explanation for that, but when I am reading that line I just see it as a "finally someone who surpassed Ginyu", that is, some sort of realization that came mainly from the "to think there'd be someone capable of eclipsing my main subordinate", which is inherent from the "to think of", as in, something he is just realizing now, in my opinion.

The statement in the anime is also structured in a similar way.


It's fine using an in universe explanation and I am not saying it's wrong, but I personally prefer going to an "out Universe" route here and arguing it was maybe a small inconsistency, bad choice of words... or some thing like this.

[ahill1]

But, some match I'd like to see you guys' opinions:


Goku SSJ (Universe 6) vs Vegetto SSJ (fight against Boohan)

-- Toyotaro manga version of Goku SSJ.

[dragon boss z]

If Super Perfect Cell can bust the solar system, what does that say about his speed?

Nothing.
Zeno can bust the multiverse but he can't even see Dyspo move.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, there sure are evidences for the base Saiyajins being hella strong in the Boo saga, but are them strong enough to ditch out a direct statement from Beerus in the BoG, where he was apparently sensing base Goku and that was, obviously, supervised by Akira Toriyama? I wonder.

I dunno if implications, as strong as they are, can eclipse a direct statement on the matter.

I belive they do. I don't think only because there isn't a direct statement it means it holds less water. I mean, it was never directly stated that Piccolo > Freeza. Does that means it's debatable wherever Piccolo surpassed Freeza or not?

"The implications" consists of several statements and feats. The "direct implication" implies Freeza > Post Rosat Base Gotenks.

Is not a cop out as he either could be just trash talking or having some kind of strategy to ring out foes stronger than him without SSJ. Really? Well, show me Gohan backing up Vegeta on that then.

Shin being 'astonished' by Vegeta is just him understimating the Saiyans like he does for all that Babidi Spaceship quest.

The only reason Goten and Trunks were able to 'tango' 18 in the beginning was because she was holding back, knowing kill is not allowed in the Tenkaichi Budokai. Are you trying to say Base Goten/Trunks are stronger than the androids? That's just ridiculous. If so, then after turning into SSJ 'Might Mask' would just stomp her and win the match in no time.

Oh yea, like Dabura was basically measuring them for their normal suppressed state when he couldn't felt their potential based on that

I've already explained Vegeta rarely is one to trash talk, and it's never implied he had any strategy to win via ring out.



Gohan wants to win the Budokai but is the one who sugests fighting in base.

Shin indeed understimated the Saiyans, but he still expected them to be stronger than him, as evidenced by him wanting no piece of Babidi's minions without the help of the Saiyans and his lack of confidence on beating Goku at the Budokai:
Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P11.2-3
Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”

So she coincidentally was holding back on a level equal to the kids? #18 just wants to win and take the money, why doesn't she just power up and one shots the kids if she can?
And independent of the boys' base power, they could stomp #18 in no time as SSJs. The costume was just restraining their movements too much and they had to resort to a blast that albeit suppressed, almost killed (Or at least KO'd) #18.

Don't see how them being suppressed debunks this. Even though everyone there was suppressed to zero he could tell Kaioshin and Kibito where there with four other people. Dabra was never contradicted on Kuririn and Piccolo being trash to the Base Saiyans, so he should be correct on his words.

Yeah, there sure are evidences for the base Saiyajins being hella strong in the Boo saga, but are them strong enough to ditch out a direct statement from Beerus in the BoG, where he was apparently sensing base Goku and that was, obviously, supervised by Akira Toriyama? I wonder.

I dunno if implications, as strong as they are, can eclipse a direct statement on the matter.

Tough to tell based on how the manga isn't as bloated as the anime. I still reckon Goku wins this one, but is debatable if he can defeat the superior forms of Vegetto.

[Noah]

I've already explained Vegeta rarely is one to trash talk, and it's never implied he had any strategy to win via ring out.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Gohan wants to win the Budokai but is the one who sugests fighting in base.

Shin indeed understimated the Saiyans, but he still expected them to be stronger than him, as evidenced by him wanting no piece of Babidi's minions without the help of the Saiyans and his lack of confidence on beating Goku at the Budokai:
Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P11.2-3
Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”

So she coincidentally was holding back on a level equal to the kids? #18 just wants to win and take the money, why doesn't she just power up and one shots the kids if she can? And independent of the boys' base power, they could stomp #18 in no time as SSJs. The costume was just restraining their movements too much and they had to resort to a blast that albeit suppressed, almost killed (Or at least KO'd) #18.

Don't see how them being suppressed debunks this. Even though everyone there was suppressed to zero he could tell Kaioshin and Kibito where there with four other people. Dabra was never contradicted on Kuririn and Piccolo being trash to the Base Saiyans, so he should be correct on his words.

It doesn't need to be implied as Vegeta was said once to be a battle genius, he could find way to overcome that condition.

And please, Gohan was not backing up Vegeta there, he was expressing his desire to win, not stating he would no matter what. Being the one who suggested the condition has nothing to do with him acknowledging he would win that way, but yes as something that would favor him: keep his identity.

So you're trying to say to me: that Shin, a god of creation, had no idea that people like Goku could be massively holding their power? That he just thought they would be stronger than him at first look? You're just taking statements too literally and interpreting the way you want.

She didn't knew at first that the kids were behind the disguise, she felt something off about Might Mask and had no ideia about his true strenght until they turn into SSJ. Well, but they didn't stomped her, so your logic is flawed there... If their Base is strong as #18 plus 50x they would obliterate her no matter how the costume was restraining their movements.

Again taking statements too literally is like you're trying to convince me that a character that is supposed to be strong as Cell couldn't tell that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were far from their full power just because they were suppresed.

[nickzambuto]

If Super Perfect Cell can bust the solar system, what does that say about his speed?

Nothing.
Zeno can bust the multiverse but he can't even see Dyspo move.

In order to bust the solar system, Cell's Kamehameha would have to reach the edge in relatively short order. Ki dissipates not long after it leaves the user.

[TobyS]

The SS2 Adults weren't way out of Cell Games Gohan league, ergo their bases can't be much higher because ss is a multiplier, And we know Piccolo was stronger than 50% Cell Goku and certainly base.

Piccolo < Base is offensive to the point of character bashing.

[dragonball0900]

The SS2 Adults weren't way out of Cell Games Gohan league, ergo their bases can't be much higher because ss is a multiplier, And we know Piccolo was stronger than 50% Cell Goku and certainly base.

Piccolo < Base is offensive to the point of character bashing.

This. Totally agreed.

I don't know why people think Piccolo is weaker than Base saiyans. Just because of Vegeta's ego before the Tournament? Just because he's being his usual self (arrogant and full of himself when it comes to strength) we have to believe him? Throughout the series we have Piccolo reaching close to SSJ in the Android arc, then surpassing it in his Kami fusion, then surpassing it again after his ROSAT training with his power being on a "different level", and only stayed below SSJ when the SSJs (Vegeta and Future Trunks) entered the chamber for the 2nd time. Then 7 years of training and we have a Piccolo that can easily stomp someone like ASSJ Vegeta.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It doesn't need to be implied as Vegeta was said once to be a battle genius, he could find way to overcome that condition.

That's only on equal or similar power battles, like his 2nd fight with Zarbon. Everytime a foe was much stronger than Vegeta he got his ass handed to him. He's a good fighter, not a miracle man. Piccolo is also a battle genius btw.

And please, Gohan was not backing up Vegeta there, he was expressing his desire to win, not stating he would no matter what. Being the one who suggested the condition has nothing to do with him acknowledging he would win that way, but yes as something that would favor him: keep his identity.

Sorry, i did poorly word my argument back there. Gohan doesn't directly backs Vegeta up, but his statement has a similar value to Vegeta's by implying the Base Saiyans could solo the Budokai in base.

Anyways, it's never implied Gohan's desire to win would be affected by fighting in base.

So you're trying to say to me: that Shin, a god of creation, had no idea that people like Goku could be massively holding their power? That he just thought they would be stronger than him at first look? You're just taking statements too literally and interpreting the way you want.

What's the big deal with him being a god of creation? It's not like being a deity holds any respect or places you in a high ass plateau. Kaio is the Lord of Words and was dwarfed by the Saiyans.

I'm not taking the statements literally, you're just denying then. Shin thinks he needs help to fight Babidi, but is astonished by Base Vegeta. Shin instantly recognizes Yakon and tells they should team up, but Goku is able to hold is own against the beast. Babidi thinks his minions can solo Shin and the "Marvelous Energy" who are far above Piccolo. Everything points out exactly to Shin being the weakest character in the spaceship.

She didn't knew at first that the kids were behind the disguise, she felt something off about Might Mask and had no ideia about his true strenght until they turn into SSJ. Well, but they didn't stomped her, so your logic is flawed there... If their Base is strong as #18 plus 50x they would obliterate her no matter how the costume was restraining their movements.

It's just bad writting tbh. The boys are leagues above #18 as SSJs, as evidenced by their multiple feats placing them closing on Gohan. Probably they couldn't move fast enough without ripping the costume off or something.

Also, Toriyama stopped thinking about numbers after Freeza. Arguing about power gaps is irrevelant unless we're talking about Battle Powers specifically.

Again taking statements too literally is like you're trying to convince me that a character that is supposed to be strong as Cell couldn't tell that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were far from their full power just because they were suppresed.

I'm not taking the statements too literally, i'm just not ignoring them. Dabra says the Saiyans had marvelous energy but is surprised when Goku transformed against Yakon, so he's definitely talking about Base. Doubt Toriayama would just put the statement there with Dabra being wrong and confuse the readers either.

The SS2 Adults weren't way out of Cell Games Gohan league, ergo their bases can't be much higher because ss is a multiplier, And we know Piccolo was stronger than 50% Cell Goku and certainly base.

Piccolo < Base is offensive to the point of character bashing.

Stronger than 50% Goku? Piccolo himself was the one who admited to have no shot against Cell while thinking the power Goku showed at Karin was his max.

Even if he was that powerful, that would just mean that the SSJ multiplier is ridiculously tiny and/or Gohan's advantage over Goku was huge.

And actually, Piccolo is my favorite character on the series, as well as Piccolo Daimao was my favorite villian. It just happens that Toriyama thought nothing of Piccolo in the Boo Arc, the fact he was left behind with Kuririn shows he's nothing more than garbage by this point.

I don't know why people think Piccolo is weaker than Base saiyans. Just because of Vegeta's ego before the Tournament? Just because he's being his usual self (arrogant and full of himself when it comes to strength) we have to believe him? Throughout the series we have Piccolo reaching close to SSJ in the Android arc, then surpassing it in his Kami fusion, then surpassing it again after his ROSAT training with his power being on a "different level", and only stayed below SSJ when the SSJs (Vegeta and Future Trunks) entered the chamber for the 2nd time. Then 7 years of training and we have a Piccolo that can easily stomp someone like ASSJ Vegeta.

The same Vegeta who's so full of himself he wanted nothing with #20 after fighting #19? So we have to disregard all of his statements now? Vegeta's words were never contradicted and even Gohan thinks he can win in base.

Sure, Piccolo did keep up with the Super Saiyans for like 60% of the Cell Arc, but his days of glory were over when Cell emerged from the water unharmed and snapped his neck.

Him starting stronger than Vegeta Pre Rosat doesn't mean he's going to left stronger than SSJG2 Vegeta. Vegeta had a sparring partner and had more potential than Piccolo as a Saiyan. Personally i think Post Rosat Piccolo is on pair with FP Semi Cell.

[dragon boss z]

In order to bust the solar system, Cell's Kamehameha would have to reach the edge in relatively short order. Ki dissipates not long after it leaves the user.

Cell just said he had enough energy to destroy the solar system. For all we know his kameaheha could split off and destroy everything like star killer base did or the explosion could just expand at a really fast rate. Or maybe he has the power to destroy all of the mass in the solar system but he can't cover all of the empty space. Either way that tells us nothing about his movement speed. At best it is his ki or ki explosion speed.

[ZombieVito]

Beerus (No Hakai or sealing techniques) vs SSB Vegetto (No time limit, Kaioken or Mafuba) vs Merged Zamasu (Corrupted form; No Infinite form after getting destroyed).

Who wins?

[Myzt0gun]

Beerus (No Hakai or sealing techniques) vs SSB Vegetto (No time limit, Kaioken or Mafuba) vs Merged Zamasu (Corrupted form; No Infinite form after getting destroyed).

Who wins?

Beerus wins (High Difficulty) against both at the same time

Beerus wins (Mid Difficulty) against SSB Vegito

Beerus wins (Low Difficulty) against Merged Zamasu

*Imo SSB Vegito still can't beat Even the weakest God of Destruction though whoever he fights will not win easily,
and Beerus Imo is one of the most powerful God of Destruction, probably around Top 2 or 4