The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Steven Bloodriver]

Who's the strongest character Raditz could beat if he had the same power as usual but had mastered Ultra Instinct?

Perhaps Great Ape Vegeta?

[dragon boss z]

Right, what if:

Gohan (when fighting Ginyu in Goku's body) vs Recoome/Burter/Jeice

Considering how Gohan got a zenkai from Recoome's fight, and his power kept increasing after that due to Guru's boost, with a 23,000 level of power being considered as nothing for him. What do you think?

His performance didn't seem to be far above Ginyu-Goku's power, so any of the Ginyus stomp. Monster Zarbon would be a better match IMO.

Even that is probably too much. I don't see him being Monster Zarbon, who's power level is close to 30k and knows how to use it.

Who's the strongest character Raditz could beat if he had the same power as usual but had mastered Ultra Instinct?

Hard to say. He could probably dodge attacks from pretty much anyone, the problem is he won't be able to damage much stronger characters or block AOE attacks. I don't see him doing much better than Nappa, and I could still see him losing to Nappa.

[AvatarReiko]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn
SSJ Caba vs Ribrianne
17 VS Ult Gohan
Frieza vs Toppo

[dragon boss z]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn

Buuhan. He has better feats as of now and was far above buu saga ssj3 Goku.

SSJ Caba vs Ribrianne

I'll go with Ribrianne since she fought ssj Vegeta and Goku went SSB on her for a sec.

17 VS Ult Gohan

Gohan. I still find it hard to believe 17 got as strong as he did. But I need to see more from both of them before I decide how strong I think both are. So far I have current Gohan a couple times stronger than his Buu saga self.

Frieza vs Toppo

Probably Frieza. He is getting way more hype and was equal with SSB Goku, while Toppo was losing. Yes Goku was about to use KK, but we never got to see it.

[LowRyder2005]

Who say that is stronger than Beerus and Quitela but not than Vermoud? and who say that Vermoud>Beerus/Quitela? the only thing that we know, is that Jiren is Hakaishin level and he has possibly surpassed that level, that's all.

Is it a real question? We know the God who beat Beerus at arm wrestling can't beat Jiren; this God should be stronger than Beerus and this God should be Quitela. Okay, you could put a hypothetical if you reaaaally think that Beerus is actually stronger than Quitela after all or that more than one God beat Beerus at arm wrestling, but other than that it's pretty darn easy to understand on what premise would someone tell you Jiren is at least implied to be stronger than both Beerus and Quitela. I mean, did the post really need additional clarifications?

Dude, what? you just put anime and manga together

In the anime, Whis said "there is a universe where lives a mortal that even a God can't defeat, that God is stronger than Beerus" and Beerus said that it was only an arm wrestling match. Herms, that is reliable, said that this mortal and this God live in the same universe (and it was clear even without Herms). So, is Vermoud, without any doubt. Meh, you believe that Whis talked about...Quitela and Jiren? what's the point? they don't know each other and they never met each other lol. Why Quitela and Jiren should be related? it's nonsense.

In the manga is different, for now we only know that Quitela is the God who beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match, but we still don't know anything about Jiren. Toyotaro and Toei follow Toriyama script, but in a different way.

Jiren is>Vermoud and we don't know if Quitela is>Beerus, but i doubt it. Actually, we don't know anything about Gods tier in general, in the anime.

And I also added some cream topping on it. Anyway, I'd like to see this and especially see if it's in the actual translation. Because I reckon Herms is saying the exact same thing.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/910820826869460992

No, because Whis says that the mortal is stronger than "A" GOD OF DESTRUCTION, not stronger than "the God of Destruction of his Universe". So this logic we need to assume the universe is already off. Plus, the anime never stated Jiren is above Belmond, at least not yet; he can't be defeated by a God of Destruction who happens to be stronger than Beerus, and the manga clarifies it's Quitela, who was probably referenced because Whis knew for sure he was stronger than Beerus and Beerus was needed for the comparison. Unless the anime changes it or Toriyama, Toyotaro and Toei didn't even feel like agreeing on which character beat Beerus, which I seriously doubt, chances are you yourself will see it one or two episodes from now.

I swear, this fanbase and its logic leaves me in despair. Even reading the comments under Herms' status it looks like while there were a handful of people bright enough to dissect the statement, the majority of commenters were guys who'd wage war over some "is the dress blue or white" issue.

[VegettoEX]

I swear, this fanbase and its logic leaves me in despair.

If it affects you this much and you're not willing to have a reasonable, friendly conversation with them, perhaps you could better spend your time elsewhere on other matters.

We expect more of our community members.

[LowRyder2005]

Is it a real question? We know the God who beat Beerus at arm wrestling can't beat Jiren; this God should be stronger than Beerus and this God should be Quitela. Okay, you could put a hypothetical if you reaaaally think that Beerus is actually stronger than Quitela after all or that more than one God beat Beerus at arm wrestling, but other than that it's pretty darn easy to understand on what premise would someone tell you Jiren is at least implied to be stronger than both Beerus and Quitela. I mean, did the post really need additional clarifications?

Dude, what? you just put anime and manga together

In the anime, Whis said "there is a universe where lives a mortal that even a God can't defeat, that God is stronger than Beerus" and Beerus said that it was only an arm wrestling match. Herms, that is reliable, said that this mortal and this God live in the same universe (and it was clear even without Herms). So, is Vermoud, without any doubt. Meh, you believe that Whis talked about...Quitela and Jiren? what's the point? they don't know each other and they never met each other lol. Why Quitela and Jiren should be related? it's nonsense.

In the manga is different, for now we only know that Quitela is the God who beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match, but we still don't know anything about Jiren. Toyotaro and Toei follow Toriyama script, but in a different way.

Jiren is>Vermoud and we don't know if Quitela is>Beerus, but i doubt it. Actually, we don't know anything about Gods tier in general, in the anime.

And I also added some cream topping on it. Anyway, I'd like to see this and especially see if it's in the actual translation. Because I reckon Herms is saying the exact same thing.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/910820826869460992

No, because Whis says that the mortal is stronger than "A" GOD OF DESTRUCTION, not stronger than "the God of Destruction of his Universe". So this logic we need to assume the universe is already off. Plus, the anime never stated Jiren is above Belmond, at least not yet; he can't be defeated by a God of Destruction who happens to be stronger than Beerus, and the manga clarifies it's Quitela, who was probably referenced because Whis knew for sure he was stronger than Beerus and Beerus was needed for the comparison. Unless the anime changes it or Toriyama, Toyotaro and Toei didn't even feel like agreeing on which character beat Beerus, which I seriously doubt, chances are you yourself will see it one or two episodes from now.

I swear, this fanbase and its logic leaves me in despair. Even reading the comments under Herms' status it looks like while there were a handful of people bright enough to dissect the statement, the majority of commenters were guys who'd wage war over some "is the dress blue or white" issue.

To provide further clarification: Japanese has no definite or indefinite article (http://www.japanesewithanime.com/2017/0 ... icles.html) much like it makes little difference between singular and plural. However, we do know that an indefinite article is used in the official subtitles instead of a more natural and straigthforward "there's a mortal in an universe that 'the/its' God of Destruction can't beat".

[Shlugo]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn

Caulfila fought reasonably well against SSJ2 Goku, and while I would hesitate to call her his equal, she's at least in the same whightclass as him, which is more than can be said for Buuhan.

SSJ Caba vs Ribrianne

Goku been fighting with Ribrianne in his Base form and was suppressing himself at least until she turned into Super Ribrianne. Cabba wins easily. This is not a fair fight.

17 VS Ult Gohan

This one is hard, since the exact power level of both of them is a bit hard to place, but I would give the win to 17. If nothing else he can outlast Gohan.

Frieza vs Toppo

Probably Freeza. When Goku went Blue against Toppo he was pretty much beating him up and the letter couldn't really counter at all. Freeza had a much more even fight with Goku.

[dragon boss z]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn

Caulfila fought reasonably well against SSJ2 Goku, and while I would hesitate to call her his equal, she's at least in the same whightclass as him, which is more than can be said for Buuhan.

I don't think she is really as strong as Goku. In ssj form she was having trouble with Nappapa, who Frieza stomped and Frieza should be comparable to full power base Goku.

Goku been fighting with Ribrianne in his Base form and was suppressing himself at least until she turned into Super Ribrianne. Cabba wins easily. This is not a fair fight.

Ribrianne took a shot from SSB and seemed fine. Cabba was knocked out by a casual SSB punch. There is evidence on both sides, I don't see how you can call it an unfair fight.

[apex_pretador]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn
SSJ Caba vs Ribrianne
17 VS Ult Gohan
Frieza vs Toppo

Caulifla did nothing to put her at Buuhan level. But, let's take a look into her feats:
She overpowered (with difficulty) Napapa, who was able to resist Basil's blast, who, by now, has probably reached fat buu level. So, SS1 Caulifla should be close to SS1 Gotenks at best. To beat Buuhan, you need to be much more powerful than that.
Buuhan wins.

Ribanne was able to go toe to toe with Base Goku and was winning. She even briefly traded blows with SS Vegeta without any disadvantage. SS Cabba can be at best as strong as SS Caulifla. I can't see her being able to fight off trio-de-dangers alone like base Goku. I can't see him breaking
Ribanne wins.

#17 got his barrier broken by and stalemated by Ribanne, who is somewhere between base goku and SS1 Vegeta. If this is current Gohan, he stomps by being able to match and overpower SS2 Goku. If it is buu arc Gohan, then I don't know,

Freeza wins no question.

[Legion]

Is it a real question? We know the God who beat Beerus at arm wrestling can't beat Jiren; this God should be stronger than Beerus and this God should be Quitela. Okay, you could put a hypothetical if you reaaaally think that Beerus is actually stronger than Quitela after all or that more than one God beat Beerus at arm wrestling, but other than that it's pretty darn easy to understand on what premise would someone tell you Jiren is at least implied to be stronger than both Beerus and Quitela. I mean, did the post really need additional clarifications?

Dude, what? you just put anime and manga together

In the anime, Whis said "there is a universe where lives a mortal that even a God can't defeat, that God is stronger than Beerus" and Beerus said that it was only an arm wrestling match. Herms, that is reliable, said that this mortal and this God live in the same universe (and it was clear even without Herms). So, is Vermoud, without any doubt. Meh, you believe that Whis talked about...Quitela and Jiren? what's the point? they don't know each other and they never met each other lol. Why Quitela and Jiren should be related? it's nonsense.

In the manga is different, for now we only know that Quitela is the God who beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match, but we still don't know anything about Jiren. Toyotaro and Toei follow Toriyama script, but in a different way.

Jiren is>Vermoud and we don't know if Quitela is>Beerus, but i doubt it. Actually, we don't know anything about Gods tier in general, in the anime.

And I also added some cream topping on it. Anyway, I'd like to see this and especially see if it's in the actual translation. Because I reckon Herms is saying the exact same thing.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/910820826869460992

No, because Whis says that the mortal is stronger than "A" GOD OF DESTRUCTION, not stronger than "the God of Destruction of his Universe". So this logic we need to assume the universe is already off. Plus, the anime never stated Jiren is above Belmond, at least not yet; he can't be defeated by a God of Destruction who happens to be stronger than Beerus, and the manga clarifies it's Quitela, who was probably referenced because Whis knew for sure he was stronger than Beerus and Beerus was needed for the comparison. Unless the anime changes it or Toriyama, Toyotaro and Toei didn't even feel like agreeing on which character beat Beerus, which I seriously doubt, chances are you yourself will see it one or two episodes from now.

I swear, this fanbase and its logic leaves me in despair. Even reading the comments under Herms' status it looks like while there were a handful of people bright enough to dissect the statement, the majority of commenters were guys who'd wage war over some "is the dress blue or white" issue.

Don't be mad when you'll see that you are wrong

[LowRyder2005]

Dude, what? you just put anime and manga together

In the anime, Whis said "there is a universe where lives a mortal that even a God can't defeat, that God is stronger than Beerus" and Beerus said that it was only an arm wrestling match. Herms, that is reliable, said that this mortal and this God live in the same universe (and it was clear even without Herms). So, is Vermoud, without any doubt. Meh, you believe that Whis talked about...Quitela and Jiren? what's the point? they don't know each other and they never met each other lol. Why Quitela and Jiren should be related? it's nonsense.

In the manga is different, for now we only know that Quitela is the God who beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match, but we still don't know anything about Jiren. Toyotaro and Toei follow Toriyama script, but in a different way.

Jiren is>Vermoud and we don't know if Quitela is>Beerus, but i doubt it. Actually, we don't know anything about Gods tier in general, in the anime.

And I also added some cream topping on it. Anyway, I'd like to see this and especially see if it's in the actual translation. Because I reckon Herms is saying the exact same thing.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/910820826869460992

No, because Whis says that the mortal is stronger than "A" GOD OF DESTRUCTION, not stronger than "the God of Destruction of his Universe". So this logic we need to assume the universe is already off. Plus, the anime never stated Jiren is above Belmond, at least not yet; he can't be defeated by a God of Destruction who happens to be stronger than Beerus, and the manga clarifies it's Quitela, who was probably referenced because Whis knew for sure he was stronger than Beerus and Beerus was needed for the comparison. Unless the anime changes it or Toriyama, Toyotaro and Toei didn't even feel like agreeing on which character beat Beerus, which I seriously doubt, chances are you yourself will see it one or two episodes from now.

I swear, this fanbase and its logic leaves me in despair. Even reading the comments under Herms' status it looks like while there were a handful of people bright enough to dissect the statement, the majority of commenters were guys who'd wage war over some "is the dress blue or white" issue.

Don't be mad when you'll see that you are wrong

Eh, I won't really get mad if it turns out the God is Quitela in the manga but not in the anime, don't worry (or if Beerus lost to more than one at arm-wrestling, for instance). I'll just be a little surprised, I s'pose.

[supercat]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn
SSJ Caba vs Ribrianne
17 VS Ult Gohan
Frieza vs Toppo

SSJ2 Caulifla makes quick work of anyone from the Buu saga. Even SSJ Caulifla would find such a feat quite easy. She was able to tangle with SSJ Goku, something Buuhan couldn't even dream of.

Android 17 should be a little stronger than current Ultimate Gohan. A suppressed Android 17 gave a suppressed SSB Goku a really good fight. If anything, it looked like Goku was trying a bit harder. That same Goku, didn't even bother going SSJ against a new-and-improved Buu. If this is Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga, Android 17 wins in a matter of seconds. The barrier probably has varying levels of strength, which is why Ribrianne was able to break it.

SSB Goku > (by a slight amount) Android 17 > / = Ultimate Gohan (current) > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku > SSJ Goku > Base Goku > / = Final Form Frieza > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

[Shlugo]

I don't think she is really as strong as Goku. In ssj form she was having trouble with Nappapa, who Frieza stomped and Frieza should be comparable to full power base Goku.

I wouldn't really say she had trouble with Nappapa. She got caught off-guard the moment she finished Methiop, and got pushed back some distance, but the second she actually put in some strenght, Napapa couldn't even make her budge another milliliter.

Ribrianne took a shot from SSB and seemed fine. Cabba was knocked out by a casual SSB punch. There is evidence on both sides, I don't see how you can call it an unfair fight.

First, I was under the impression this was just the Base Ribrianne in this match, not Super Ribrianne.

Second, Vegeta clearly wanted to end his fight with Cabba at this point, while Goku seemingly just wanted to get Ribrianne out of the way since he spotted Jiren. So I'm not sure those are comparable.

Also as I said, Base Goku wasn't being serious when fighting Ribrianne before she transformed, and even after that, he didn't seem especially overwhelmed against Super Ribrianne. It'd take some really convoluted reasoning to justify putting at least regular Ribrianne above Base Goku, while Universe 6 Sayians have always been shown to be at least in the same weight class as Goku and Vegeta at the same transformation.

[Zamasu55]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn
SSJ Caba vs Ribrianne
17 VS Ult Gohan
Frieza vs Toppo

- Even Super Buu stomps her.
- I'm sure the manga will help us with this one. For now, I don't want to answer.
- 17's stronger, if I'm not mistaken Toshio confirmed that as well.
- Golden Freeza wins after a tough fight.

[dragon boss z]

I wouldn't really say she had trouble with Nappapa. She got caught off-guard the moment she finished Methiop, and got pushed back some distance, but the second she actually put in some strenght, Napapa couldn't even make her budge another milliliter.

Well Frieza was just casually stepping on Nappapa, so at the very least that would put him quite a bit above ssj Caulifla, maybe ssj2 Caulifla is final form Frieza level. And as of now I would put Buuhan comparable to final form Frieza.

First, I was under the impression this was just the Base Ribrianne in this match, not Super Ribrianne.

Ok, I was just assuming we were using the strongest versions of each, though Vegeta went ssj against Ribrianne earlier and 17 fought her as well.

Second, Vegeta clearly wanted to end his fight with Cabba at this point, while Goku seemingly just wanted to get Ribrianne out of the way since he spotted Jiren. So I'm not sure those are comparable.

I mean Goku smashed her through multiple rocks pretty hard and she took no damage, plus if he just wanted to knock her out of the way he could of used base or ssj and done the same thing.

Also as I said, Base Goku wasn't being serious when fighting Ribrianne before she transformed, and even after that, he didn't seem especially overwhelmed against Super Ribrianne. It'd take some really convoluted reasoning to justify putting at least regular Ribrianne above Base Goku, while Universe 6 Sayians have always been shown to be at least in the same weight class as Goku and Vegeta at the same transformation.

I don't know, I think Goku and Vegeta were massively holding back against the U6 saiyans. Evidence of this is ssj Cabba all of a sudden not even being able to budge Vegeta, and base Goku fighting Frieza, base Vegeta preparing to fight Frost (who was stronger than base Cabba), base Goku fighting Buu, and of course base copy Vegeta stomping ssj3 Gotenks. Pretty much every one of these characters besides maybe final form Frost would stomp base Cabba, yet they couldn't stomp base Goku.

- 17's stronger, if I'm not mistaken Toshio confirmed that as well.

Actually I'm pretty sure Toshi said he thinks Gohan is slightly stronger, and another post he said he thinks they were about equal.

[Shlugo]

Well Frieza was just casually stepping on Nappapa, so at the very least that would put him quite a bit above ssj Caulifla, maybe ssj2 Caulifla is final form Frieza level. And as of now I would put Buuhan comparable to final form Frieza.

I don't think we can draw such a conclusion from that. All it shows is that Frieza is stronger than Nappapa. It does in no way shows that he's stronger than SSJ Caulifla. Her fight with Nappapa lasted like five seconds and she defeated him withouth even throwing a punch, so we can't even tell how much stronger she was than him except "a lot".

Ok, I was just assuming we were using the strongest versions of each, though Vegeta went ssj against Ribrianne earlier and 17 fought her as well.

I assumed that since it was specified it's SSJ Cabba it would also be specified if it was Super Ribrianne.

I mean Goku smashed her through multiple rocks pretty hard and she took no damage, plus if he just wanted to knock her out of the way he could of used base or ssj and done the same thing.

Yeah, but Goku been spamming Blue all this arc like it was going out of fashion so who knows. And if ribrianne was supposed to be anywhere near Blue level she wouldn't had problems with Base Goku.

I don't know, I think Goku and Vegeta were massively holding back against the U6 saiyans. Evidence of this is ssj Cabba all of a sudden not even being able to budge Vegeta, and base Goku fighting Frieza, base Vegeta preparing to fight Frost (who was stronger than base Cabba), base Goku fighting Buu, and of course base copy Vegeta stomping ssj3 Gotenks. Pretty much every one of these characters besides maybe final form Frost would stomp base Cabba, yet they couldn't stomp base Goku.

Your evidence is faulty, since you start from an assumption that all those characters would stomp Cabba, but that's not something proven. It's a rather circular argument.

I'd admit that U6 sayians might be bit hard to scale since they didn't have many fights against people other than Goku and Vegeta (who re notorious for being inconsistent in their showings) but every time they fought those two using the same transformation level they were if not equal, at least in the same general tier. And I think that if what we were supposed to get from those fights was something like "Oh Goku and Vegeta are Super Sayians, but they are actually using less power than in their Base Forms" that would be indicated pretty hard, but it wasn't so I don't assume that.

[Roronoa-pt]

SSJ2 Caulifa vs Buuahn
SSJ Caba vs Ribrianne
17 VS Ult Gohan
Frieza vs Toppo

SSJ2 Caulifla is, at best, SSJ2 Gohan ( Cell Games ) level. She didn't even properly mastered SSJ state yet, let alone SSJ2. SSJ2 Goku wasn't even serious when he fought her. Buuhan one shots.
We've to see more of Cabba in ToP to properly answer this. Altough U6 saga's Cabba has no chance to win against Ribriane.
They seem equal right now. Ultimate Gohan fought very well against a ( serious ) SSJB Goku. A surpressed #17 was as strong as a surpressed SSJB Goku.
Frieza wins after a good battle.

[dragon boss z]

Her fight with Nappapa lasted like five seconds and she defeated him withouth even throwing a punch, so we can't even tell how much stronger she was than him except "a lot".

He pushed her back pretty far and she strained when throwing him off. She isn't that far above him in ssj, but in ssj2, ya she is a lot stronger.

Your evidence is faulty, since you start from an assumption that all those characters would stomp Cabba, but that's not something proven. It's a rather circular argument.

Well just going off what I've seen, final form Frieza should be above ssj U6 saiyans, and it would only make sense for ss3 Gotenks to at least be around their level if not above.

I'd admit that U6 sayians might be bit hard to scale since they didn't have many fights against people other than Goku and Vegeta (who re notorious for being inconsistent in their showings)

Yep

but every time they fought those two using the same transformation level they were if not equal, at least in the same general tier.

I wouldn't call this almost equal

And I think that if what we were supposed to get from those fights was something like "Oh Goku and Vegeta are Super Sayians, but they are actually using less power than in their Base Forms" that would be indicated pretty hard, but it wasn't so I don't assume that.

I don't think their base can become stronger than ssj (though their full power base may be above suppressed ssj level), I think that they may of be able to raise their base power to almost ssj level if they keep all of their ki in. Goku has been shown to alter his base power, as with the fight with Ribrianne in 109 he said that he'll fight with power power now, and he stayed in base.

[ZombieVito]

Kid Gohan [Cell Games] vs Gohan [Black arc].

No Super Saiyan allowed.