The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dragon boss z]

Either Kefla or Vegito kill him effortlessly. A God of Destruction level foe was already thrashed by Vegeta let alone these 2.

There is nothing proving Kefla is above GoD Toppo or current Vegeta. And not all GoD are the same level. Beerus is stronger than Toppo and Vegeta.

Imo
Kefla<Toppo<Vegeta<Beerus<=UI Goku

Also you should quote the person you are replying to so they get a notification.

[kn83]

Either Kefla or Vegito kill him effortlessly. A God of Destruction level foe was already thrashed by Vegeta let alone these 2.

There is nothing proving Kefla is above GoD Toppo or current Vegeta.

There's allot actually. The fact that Kefla could potentially kill UI Omen Goku with her energy beams, that she was equal to the U7 spirit bomb in her SSJ1 state while neither God Toppo or current Vegeta were anywhere stated to be relative or above that, etc.

[Helios518]

Either Kefla or Vegito kill him effortlessly. A God of Destruction level foe was already thrashed by Vegeta let alone these 2.

There is nothing proving Kefla is above GoD Toppo or current Vegeta.

There's allot actually. 1) The fact that Kefla could potentially kill UI Omen Goku with her energy beams, that she was equal to the U7 spirit bomb in her SSJ1 state while neither 2) God Toppo or current Vegeta were anywhere stated to be relative or above that, etc.

1) Kafla was pushing power she normally doesn't hav in that final attack to kill Goku. Similar to Vegeta's FF against Cell.

2) GoD Toppo is far above SSJBE Vegeta (tied with SSJBKKx20). It wasn't until SSJBE Vegeta got amped, was he able to defeat Toppo.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Beerus just so conveniently happens to be stronger than Toppo and Vegeta according to what?
I don't know where the idea that every God is massively below Beerus came from but it isn't stated.
All of the Gods are on the same plane, with small-modest differences between them at most and that's made obvious in their fights against each other. And Toppo is stated to be no different than any of them.

And Vegeta and Toppo are more than flies to Kefla according to what? She surpassed UI Goku's earlier level whom was equal to suppressed Jiren, whom was already stated by Whis to be showing destroyer-like power. The same power that had Beerus sweating wondering how anyone could have so much power.

And Vegeta showed equal performance with Kaioken Goku after his "amp", so it would follow that he was weaker before according to the logic that people here use. There's a reason Toppo went after Vegeta instead of going after Goku. He left Goku to Jiren for a reason which was already stated. He wasn't sure if he could win.

The most likely chain in terms of raw power

Jiren(Full Power)>=Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku>Ultra Instinct Omen Goku(2nd Fight Against Jiren)>Jiren(True Power)>SSJ2 Kefla(Rage Boost)>Ultra Instinct Goku(Against Kefla)>SSJ2 Kefla>Ultra Instinct Omen Goku(1st Fight with Jiren)>Final Explosion>=Full Power Energy of Destruction Ball>SSJ Kefla>SSB Evolution Vegeta>Toppo<=>Beerus, with "<=>" meaning relative to each other with Toppo or Beerus being able to win against each other.

[Helios518]

1) Beerus just so conveniently happens to be stronger than Toppo and Vegeta according to what?
2) I don't know where the idea that every God is massively below Beerus came from but it isn't stated.
3) All of the Gods are on the same plane, with small-modest differences between them at most and that's made obvious in their fights against each other. 4) And Toppo is stated to be no different than any of them.
And Vegeta and Toppo are more than flies to Kefla according to what? 5) She surpassed UI Goku's earlier level whom was equal to suppressed Jiren, 6) whom was already stated by Whis to be showing destroyer-like power. 7) The same power that had Beerus sweating wondering how anyone could have so much power.
8 ) And Vegeta showed equal performance with Kaioken Goku after his "amp", so it would follow that he was weaker before according to the logic that people here use. There's a reason Toppo went after Vegeta instead of going after Goku. He left Goku to Jiren for a reason which was already stated. He wasn't sure if he could win.

1) Because a professional GoD for over many millenniums is likely above one that's still in training. There's no

2) I never heard about this idea until now.

3) Nowhere was it stated, that GoDs have a modest difference in power at most from each other.

4) That was in the context of the Energy of Destruction.

5) This was never said. If you're talking about Piccolo, then Piccolo was referring to the tired SSJBKK that Goku was just in because the wording implied a much more recent event.

6) Whis didn't say that Geran was showing GoD-like power. Whis said Geran appears to be the "mortal that surpasses the GoD" seeing as how casually he's stopping the Genki-Dama.

7) Beerus's line was clearly referring to mortals, otherwise the line holds makes no sense because he already know the angels, Grand Priest, and Zeno have that much power and beyond.

8 ) What? No. The amp only lasted long enough for Vegeta to defeat Toppo. Without it, SSJBE looks to be on par with SSJBKKx20.

Also can you quote the comments that you're replying to?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It doesn't matter if Beerus has been a God for longer. Toppo is no different from any other God of Destruction. And no, being no different from a God of Destruction refers to everything. No different means no different and that includes the tier of power that all of the Gods share. The Gods not being far apart is literally shown in their fight where everyone is battered equally.

No Piccolo isn't talking about Kaioken. Kefla was already put above Kaioken when she was stated to be equal to the Spirit Bomb. Earlier level just means the power he used earlier. And since Kefla was already stated to be stronger than Kaioken before going SSJ2, there's only one level of power that's being referred to.

Whis literally stated that Jirens power was like a God of Destruction after Shin describes his power, so no.

I'm not seeing the significance of Jiren being a mortal other than it being used to describe him in the correct term. Saying that the scene shows anything else other than shock value at Jiren's strength is an assumption. There isn't any reason that Beerus being baffled by someone having Jiren's level of energy somehow contradicts his knowledge of stronger beings, putting the assumption of the Angels being stronger than Jiren aside which I see no reason why they would be.

No, Vegeta's amp wasn't temporary since Jiren stated that he could tell why Vegeta could beat Toppo based on his punch.

I don't see why I should quote anything. You're not really saying anything and it's really just me correcting you since you're saying that things that were stated verbatim weren't stated or that the statements mean something outside of their textbook definition, such as Toppo being no different than any other God only means that he has Hakai energy.

[Helios518]

Again, you're still using that line out of context because the conversation was triggered when Toppo's Energy of Destruction was shot at and they even talked about the energy more in the scene. Also the manga is in a separate continuity from the anime so whatever happens in the manga doesn't apply to the anime.

Evidence? Because in translation that's obviously not the case. [spoiler][/spoiler]

Whis just said that the rumor appeared to be true not that he was emitting GoD level outputs in the scene. If that was the case, then they wouldn't just mention that UI Goku may have surpassed Beerus next episode. The only way that statement could make sense, is if, they only just surpassed GoD level, or, if following your logic that 110 Geran was GoD level, Beerus is massively above the other GoDs.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, the statement was made when Toppo transformed and the definition of the statement still remains the same. And the manga is the anime's stated supplementary material so saying that it can't be used under any condition sounds ridiculous.

I don't see what that translation proves. Earlier means earlier, not 1 second earlier or 1 minute earlier and Kefla was already put above Kaioken when she was stated to be equal to the Spirit Bomb. Goku went UI only minutes ago, so "a little time ago" doesn't contradict anything.

Shin: He's strong. Plain and simple.
Whis: I daresay like a God of Destruction.

"May be stronger" doesn't equate to "barely stronger". That isn't the definition of the word. "May" by definition is simply used to bring up a possibility, not to put anything in quantifiable terms. Goku's thoughts were decreasing UI's offensive power, so his offensive power doesn't have to be above what Beerus can output before perfecting Ultra Instinct.

[Helios518]

Again, you’re still ignoring context of the statement and choosing to believe what you want.

The translate implies the most recent power up same way how RoF Gohan’s line on Tagoma “rivaling me at my best” means Gohan when he’s at peak currently not his all time peak.

Like doesn’t mean “same as”, it means “similar to”. suppressed Geran and GoDs both have capabilities to casually stop the Genki-Dama but doesn’t mean they both have the same full-power. I.E Cell and Boo could both casually stop an all-out attack from Ginyu but that doesn’t stop the fact, that Boo is way above Cell.

“May be stronger” is used if there’s a question if one is stronger than another not if the answer is clear. If 110 Geran is GoD/Beerus level than there would be no question if UI Goku is stronger than Beerus or not, it would be as clear as day that UI Goku is stronger than Beerus. You wouldn’t say a mountain “may be bigger” than an anthill, you would say mountain A may be bigger than mountain B.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I gave you the definition of the Belmod's statement already. You're giving me a context that doesn't exist, a context you made up in your own head. No different means no different. Toppo literally is no different from any of the other 12 Gods of Destruction. He isn't the lone one that's conveniently fodder tier for the sake of you wanting to elevate Beerus.

Yeah, no. I don't see why Piccolo's statement has to refer to SSB Kaioken when Kefla as an SSJ was already stated to be stronger than that. And I don't see the similarity between it and Gohan's statement either. And I don't see how the Gohan statement could be misconstrued to mean Tagoma=Ultimate Gohan. Especially not when a powered up Tagoma lost to a vastly weaker Gohan.

I'm not even seeing your point. It doesn't matter whether you try to use "similar" or "same" here. Jiren as he was then was stated to be strong like a God of Destruction. Whatever power a God can possibly output, Jiren's was similar to that, otherwise he wouldn't be like a God of Destruction. He would be much weaker which runs contrary to what was stated.
You're just trying to argue semantics. No the Gods and Jiren don't have the same full power. Jiren is stronger than all of them.

I gave you the definition of "might". You just gave one situation in which it's used. It's defintion isn't equivalent to "barely". So saying that UI Goku and Beerus were deemed comparable is baseless and runs contrary to the defintion of the word itself.

[Helios518]

The context was literally the Energy of Destruction. The conversation was sparked because of Toppo’s power, it happen because they just witnessed the Energy of Destruction.

Despite CR’s translation, Kafla being like the Genki-Dama wasn’t because referring to its power, it was referring to how she’s the catalyst for UI”O” much like the Genki-Dama.

Saying something is like something else doesn’t mean they’re same. Considering Whis was able to tell that Geran is far from his limits, Whis clearly can judge Geran’s full power through his suppression.

Stop strawmanning. I never mentioned “might” and “barely”. Again, you still wouldn’t use “may be” if the answer was clear which isn’t the case here.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The context is Toppo in general. The Energy of Destruction is part of his power. Again, no different means no different.

I already saw this supposed translation. It says nothing of the sort. Every translation says that Kefla's power rivals that Spirit Bomb.

The Whis point is baseless and it doesn't matter anyway. And you're still arguing semantics for whatever reason.
Shin: He's strong. Plain and simple.
Whis: I daresay like a God of Destruction.
If he's weaker than the God of Destruction realm here, then he isn't like a God of Destruction. Plain and simple.

You're inherently claiming that the gap is small with the logic you're using which leads to UI Goku barely being stronger. Though once again that isn't the definition of "might" making it moot.
Toppo was no different than any other God and he lost to Vegeta. Jiren stated that power that Vegeta beat Toppo with wouldn't work against him and this is when he was far from full power.
Jiren while far from full power knocked out Vegeta, Goku and 17 simultaneously just by flaring his aura, 2 of which are capable of defeating a God.

[Helios518]

If the context was just Toppo then they would’ve just started the conversation as soon as his transformation finished not after he gets attacked.

The narrator explicitly states that the battle was a trigger for the transformation. If Kafla’s power was that strong then she would’ve triggered the transformation with a single attack not an entire battle. It also doesn’t make sense to believe she’s that strong, if you take into account that U6 was worried about SSJB and Champa was even happy that Goku’s stamina was down enough to turn the tide in his favor. On top of that, if it wasn’t for the situation SSJBKK Goku was in, he would’ve won that fight.

Saying I’m arguing semantics and repeating the point I already refuted isn’t a good counter argument.

I still never used “might”. Geran also never said that the power SSJBE Vegeta just used wouldn’t work on him. You still have yet to refute my argument on “may be stronger” without resorting to strawmans.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Them talking after Toppo getting attacked doesn't prove anything. It still doesn't change the fact that Toppo is stated to be no different from a God of Destruction. Destruction Energy is part of that.

The kick to the head was part of the battle. Another case of pointless semantics.

You didn't prove anything. You said that Jiren at that point was weaker than a God and tried to back it up by changing the statement along with baseless speculation. Whis said otherwise and if that's the only statement I need to make you're argument fall apart like a house of cards, then it's more likely that you simply don't know what you're talking about or you're just too biased to think clearly.

It doesn't matter if you never specifically said the word "might". And that isn't even the point. You're equating "might and may" with "barely" even though they aren't synonyms and don't have the same meaning.
Would be like if I stated that Raditz would stomp Whis in a straight up fight, then when someone brings it up I just say that I never specifically used the verbiage "Raditz is stronger". It's nonsense.
You're argument inherently adheres to the concept that UI Goku is at most barely stronger than Beerus since you stated yourself that UI Goku isn't much stronger because of the wording.
And as I already said, the definition of "might or may" puts nothing in quantifiable terms, so I don't need to disprove anything. The way you quantify "might or may be stronger" is as baseless as anything else.

[Helios518]

Yes, it does because the convo started because of the energy not the power. In context, Toppo’s no different than a God of Destruction in the Energy of Destruction aspect, there’s zero mention on anything else besides that.

If they wanted to say the kick to the head was the trigger than they would’ve said it but they went out of their way to say the entire battle not a single part of it.

My argument is that “like” doesn’t mean “same” like you’re implying which you’ve continue to not refute but instead use loaded words to seem like you have a counter. Saying I’m biased isn’t a good argument either quite the contrary actually, it’s the ad hominem fallacy.

No, my argument would be “UI Goku has to be around or stronger than Beerus” if it’s unclear on who’s better. It’s nice to know you didn’t even know my argument. To restate what I said previously, if the answer was as clear 110 Geran is GoD level and UI Goku is way above that, then there would be no question about UI being stronger, it would be definite.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Because it's one of the things that Toppo has which makes him no different than a God. The statement says what it says. It isn't going to change.

The kick was part of the battle so no distinction is necessary.

You don't have an argument. "Like", "same" and "similar" are interchangeable and all convey the same idea. It's very clear that you're grasping at straws here because you don't want to admit that you're wrong.
Because according to you it makes sense that Jiren's power is like a God of Destruction yet at the same time nowhere near it.
I'm just going to say it as it is. You look like you've already committed to this argument and are trying to salvage it in order to not look like an idiot though you look more ridiculous by even arguing this, but you do you.

Like
having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to:
synonyms: similar to · the same as · identical to

If Jiren was weaker than that tier of power, then he wouldn't be strong like a God of Destruction. A very simple 1+1=2 conclusion stated by Whis.

That's exactly what I said. You don't even understand what you're posting and since I have to spoon feed you and carry the entire debate, this is the last time I'm wasting my time responding to this nonsense. You're claiming that UI Goku is at most barely stronger than Beerus due to the wording. The wording says "Might be stronger".
Yet for some reason you then claimed to have never said this, then you backtracked to this same stance a post later. You're merely posting examples in which the word "might" would be used. The word itself by definition puts nothing in quantifiable terms. You are using the word to quantify the gap which is baseless since it isn't stated that Goku is around Beerus' level, it doesn't state that he's only a bit stronger, it only says that he could be stronger.

You don't really seem to have any knowledge on the series itself or the words you yourself are using. Jiren stated in 127 that he could see how Vegeta beat Toppo based on his punch yet he wouldn't be able to beat Jiren with that power and proceeds to punch him out of Blue. Yet you're claiming that it didn't happen. Another reason why this is a waste of time. From the story we get Ultra Instinct Goku>Suppressed Jiren>Vegeta>Gods.

[Helios518]

You're adding a part that wasn't stated. There was no mention of power only his energy.

There's a difference between a part of the battle and the entire battle.

"Similar" isn't "Same". Similar literally means "resembling without being identical" and I notice how you bold "same" or "identical" in that definition but not "similar to". May you quote the part that I said something like "Geran's power is like a God of Destruction yet at the same time nowhere near it"?

I see, the translation used “might” but the point still stands. I'm pretty sure you need to know the definition of a phrase or a word to understand what it means and how it's being used. Sure, it means Goku "could" be stronger than Beerus but it's unclear whether if he is or not because unassumingly they have similar levels of power. If you're using "might be" in a sentence in which the answer is clear than you're using it wrong. In your case you try to fit the statement to something akin to this, UI Goku (who stomped a GoD+ level opponent) is might be stronger than Beerus (GoD level). The equivalent of that example would be saying "The jet (over 400 mph) might be faster than a snail (0.03mph). See? It doesn't work. I don’t understand how you see that statement way differently than the majority here.

So SSJBE Vegeta was always capable of defeating Toppo then why did Vegeta allow himself to get dominated at the start? This only makes sense if Vegeta got amped after his speech, or he was holding back power the entire time until that point. One of these reasons is inline with what Vegeta does in DBS, while the other one is out of character.

[Berserker1921]

*New Fights*

1. GoD Toppo vs Ssj2 Kefla?
2. Kkx20 Goku vs Aniraza?
3.SSBE Vegeta vs Goku Black and Golden Frieza?
4. Bergamo vs SS17?
5. Goku (GT, After Fusing Dbs, 100 years later) vs Ssjgod Goku?

[Helios518]

*New Fights*

1. GoD Toppo vs Ssj2 Kefla?
2. Kkx20 Goku vs Aniraza?
3.SSBE Vegeta vs Goku Black and Golden Frieza?
4. Bergamo vs SS17?
5. Goku (GT, After Fusing Dbs, 100 years later) vs Ssjgod Goku?

1. GoD Toppo wins with moderate difficulty. Toppo casually emitted the same if not higher level of feats than Genki-Dama, which SSJ2 Kafla is double of.

2. Aniraza's attack seemed to be close to stalemating a combined attack from 5 SSJB tiers (probably lower because Goku wasn't at peak condition, and Gohan and 17 are probably lower than SSJB). SSJBKKx20 Goku win with low difficulty.

3. SSJBE Vegeta is on par with SSJBKKx20 while Black and Golden Freeza are each SSJB level. Vegeta stomps with no problem.

5. Honestly, GT Goku is featless but I'm going to go with the SSJG Goku considering he said he never thought SSJG level was achievable at all and cause he can destroy the universes in a few punches something in which Omega can't even come close to.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

All right guys time for another hypothetical question. Yes I know it's a bit early for this, but I just couldn't wait any longer. And this time, I got two.

1. How strong would a Golden Frost be, and who would be the strongest person he would defeat?

2. How strong would Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Android 18 be if they had trained with Whis? I'd imagine 18 and Krillin being the strongest of the four, but would Yamcha and Ten be at least, at the very least be stronger than most Buu Saga characters? First talk about Krillin, then 18, then Yamcha, then Ten.