The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Whis in that scene was comparing Goku and Vegeta's powers in general to that of the Gods of Destruction, that's what Whis mean't by the "realm of the gods". He was not comparing their base powers to the SSG form, that just sounds like a desperate attempt to deny the fact that base Goku and Vegeta >>>>> BoG SSG Goku since RoF by projecting false meanings into the dialogue of that scene.

Also, Krillin literally just said that Goku was stronger than before when he was fighting Freeza in base in the scene. There is no way you can deny it at this point.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6553/4794b14ccc0 ... a9e_hq.jpg

I don’t understand how gods in this context means just Gods of Destruction, since we had an entire arc before called “battle of gods”.. Not to mention the several instances that Goku was called a god when he used that power. Also, when Goku fought Jiren, Whis had no qualms on comparing Jiren to a God of Destruction, so if he was really talking about just Gods of Destructions back then he would be specific. What you are claiming about us is quite a strecth, none here has interest in projecting false meaning in anything, this is very dishonest on your part. If you want to stick around here, respect what the others have to say. Or at least don’t bring translations here that don’t belong to legal sources. Despite not being exactly against the rules on your case, Kanzenshuu disapproves any streaming service that is run illegaly. The translation of what Krillin says in Crunchyroll has nothing to do with strength, but with his feeling. For context, Gohan says they have tremendous energy, which doesn’t tell much, and Krillin comments: “Unlike with Beerus, I sense a real indiscribable fear right now”.

Whenever characters generally say "the level of the gods" in the series, they are always talking about the Gods of Destruction unless explicitly stated otherwise. Plus, the fact that Whis was comparing Beerus' castle with a tree makes it obvious that Whis was talking about the Gods of Destruction's power (especially Beerus) compared to Goku and Vegeta's. Its a massive stretch to assume he was talking about SSG because he never actually brings up the form in that scene.

And there was no translation error in the scene with Krillin. Everyone was able to sense Goku's power during his fight with Beerus after absorbing the form. So Krillin has no reason to be wrong. When characters say in this series "that guy feels stronger" they are being literal because they can sense their power levels. To argue otherwise is just an attempt to ignore stated facts.

Plus, there are way too many feats and statements that prove that Goku and Vegeta's bases since RoF are much stronger than BoG SSG Goku. Like base Copy-Vegeta knocking out SSJ3 Gotenks in one casual punch for example. That couldn't have been possible if Goku and Vegeta's bases didn't reach BoG SSG level.

Until you actually prove Whis is only talking about the Gods of Destruction, you don’t have a point. Including SSG is a logical assumption, since he literally says god level.

Again, this Krillin’s line was clarified countless times, he doesn’t say anything about strength. I don’t even know from where you pulled that image. Can you please inform us?

Copy-Vegeta stomping SS3 Gotenks means nothing, since there are several characters in Boo Arc that can do the same thing and they all are weaker than SSG. For example, Gohan, Boo and Vegetto.

[dragon boss z]

Also, Krillin literally just said that Goku was stronger than before when he was fighting Freeza in base in the scene. There is no way you can deny it at this point.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6553/4794b14ccc0 ... a9e_hq.jpg

I'm almost certain multiple people have already told you that isn't the correct translation. He was talking about how he could feel the hate in the air.

Yes they did. For example Goku needed KKx10 just to match Hit in the Champa arc. Later after the Black arc, Goku was able to beat an even stronger Hit without using kaioken at all. This suggest that Goku and Vegeta got at least 10x stronger from the Champa arc to the end of the Black arc. Plus, there is also the additional gains they got training in preparation for the ToP after the rematch with Hit.

He just learned how to counter time skip better. U6 arc SSB Goku was flat out more powerful than Hit to begin with.

In the BoG arc, Goku made it clear that even a Buu arc SSJ3 Vegito couldn't stand a chance against surppressed Beerus

He said nothing about ssj3 Vegito. He said "the only thing that will work is fusion...No that probably won't even be enough". And based how rage ssj2 Vegeta put up a fight against suppressed Beerus, and Beerus said he used 10% of his power to beat Vegeta (which made no sense), ssj3 Vegito should do much better than Vegeta did. Maybe not as good as SSG, but he should still put up a fight against suppressed Beerus.

yet SSG Goku was abled to match that Beerus.

SSG Goku never stood a chance.

Both base Cabba and base Caulifla scale much higher than BoG SSG Goku, since RoF base Goku and base Vegeta surpassed BoG SSG Goku. Later those 2 train in the ROSAT for 3 years after ROF, then Champa arc base Cabba matched base Vegeta in the same arc. And finally Caulifla from the start has a higher base than Cabba's.

Base RoF Goku and Vegeta never surpassed SSG Goku.
And in the movie versions SSG Goku was 60% of Beerus. So obviously SSG was always intended to be a level far beyond the U6 saiyans. They decided to make Beerus stronger in Super, but the U6 saiyans clearly weren't meant to be on SSG level. It was flat out implied Zamasu was weaker than SSG Goku and he made Goku go ssj2.

Just because a character seems weaker than current base Goku doesn't mean they are meant to be weaker than BoG SSG Goku for all the reasons mentioned above. That's like arguing that Guldo can't be stronger than Nappa because Guldo was portrayed as fodder in the Namek arc while Nappa portrayed as high-tier in the Saiyan arc.

That's not the same thing. Guldo was part of the most elite mercenary group of the universe, and he only got there because of his special powers, not because he was strong. Nappa arguably has a higher power level than Guldo as Guldo was much weaker than Gohan and Krillin who were just stated to be "over 10,000" and Nappa was putting up a fight against Goku who was "over 8,000".
And Goku was already the strongest mortal of the universe and he got a new level of power with a god ritual. And you think some young saiyan from U6 in base is stronger than that version of Goku? If he was that strong it would of been explicitly stated. Base Cabba was confirmed weaker than assault form Frost, and Piccolo was strong enough to fight a tired final form Frost. Based off of that Piccolo at the very least should be in the same tier as base Cabba. The u6 tournament took place a couple months after RoF. Piccolo can't go from fodder in the RoF arc to above BoG SSG level in a few months.

[kn83]

Until you actually prove Whis is only talking about the Gods of Destruction, you don’t have a point. Including SSG is a logical assumption, since he literally says god level.

Again, this Krillin’s line was clarified countless times, he doesn’t say anything about strength. I don’t even know from where you pulled that image. Can you please inform us?

Copy-Vegeta stomping SS3 Gotenks means nothing, since there are several characters in Boo Arc that can do the same thing and they all are weaker than SSG. For example, Gohan, Boo and Vegetto.

1. The fact that Whis was discussing Beerus prior to the scene, the fact that Goku and Vegeta were never said to have gotten any weaker after BoG, and the fact that Whis used Beerus's castle as a measuring stick makes it clear that Whis was talking about the Gods of Destruction, not the SSG form. It is pure headcanon and denialism to assume he was talking about SSG.

2. I rewatched DBS ep.24 on Crunchyroll and Krillins line about Goku being stronger than before was there too. There is not a single translation of that episode without that line. You never gave any proof of it being an error.

3. If Goku and Vegeta didn't absorb Goku into their base then there is no way base Copy-Vegeta's feat would have been possible.

Watch this video. It completely debunks any argument about them not absorbing SSG in their base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VnuWEr80tI

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Guys, guys! Stop fighting!

[kn83]

I'm almost certain multiple people have already told you that isn't the correct translation. He was talking about how he could feel the hate in the air.

Wrong. You guys posted no proof of it being mistranslated. Krillin's line was there in the nearly every translation I have watch. It pure denialism on your part.

He just learned how to counter time skip better. U6 arc SSB Goku was flat out more powerful than Hit to begin with.

Wrong. In the anime it was outright stated that Hit and KKx10 Goku were equal in strength, plus Hit was tanking and trading attacks with Goku in that form without much issue.

He said nothing about ssj3 Vegito. He said "the only thing that will work is fusion...No that probably won't even be enough". And based how rage ssj2 Vegeta put up a fight against suppressed Beerus, and Beerus said he used 10% of his power to beat Vegeta (which made no sense), ssj3 Vegito should do much better than Vegeta did. Maybe not as good as SSG, but he should still put up a fight against suppressed Beerus.

Beerus revealed at the end of the BoG arc that he lied about how much power he was using the whole time.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6237/d0e6f1dacb0 ... 599_hq.jpg

the 6-10-15 godscale and stuff about Beerus 70% of his power got retconned in Super. Also since Goku is half of Vegito and knows full well what he is capable of, the fact that he still thought Vegito wouldn't be enough for Surppressed Beerus proves that Buu saga Vegito is fodder to Super.

SSG Goku never stood a chance.

He matched Suppressed Beerus, that was the point.

Base RoF Goku and Vegeta never surpassed SSG Goku.
And in the movie versions SSG Goku was 60% of Beerus. So obviously SSG was always intended to be a level far beyond the U6 saiyans. They decided to make Beerus stronger in Super, but the U6 saiyans clearly weren't meant to be on SSG level. It was flat out implied Zamasu was weaker than SSG Goku and he made Goku go ssj2.

Its was outright stated that they did surpass SSG in base. You are being in denial. This video completely debunks any denial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VnuWEr80tI

The movie versions of BoG and RoF are not canon so they are irrelevant. The lines about Beerus using 70% of his power where revealed to be lies in the end so that got retconned in Super.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6237/d0e6f1dacb0 ... 599_hq.jpg

And no it was not always intended for SSG to be stronger than the U6 saiyans. Nor was it ever implied that any version of Zamasu was weaker than SSG. You are just projecting your biases into the story without showing any proof.

That's not the same thing. Guldo was part of the most elite mercenary group of the universe, and he only got there because of his special powers, not because he was strong. Nappa arguably has a higher power level than Guldo as Guldo was much weaker than Gohan and Krillin who were just stated to be "over 10,000" and Nappa was putting up a fight against Goku who was "over 8,000".
And Goku was already the strongest mortal of the universe and he got a new level of power with a god ritual. And you think some young saiyan from U6 in base is stronger than that version of Goku? If he was that strong it would of been explicitly stated. Base Cabba was confirmed weaker than assault form Frost, and Piccolo was strong enough to fight a tired final form Frost. Based off of that Piccolo at the very least should be in the same tier as base Cabba. The u6 tournament took place a couple months after RoF. Piccolo can't go from fodder in the RoF arc to above BoG SSG level in a few months.

There is no official power level for Guido, and the fact that he was able to survive hits from Gohan and Krillin who were "over 10,000" shows that Guldo is easily at least much stronger than Nappa. Nappa was completely fodderized by base Goku in the saiyan arc who only had a power level of "over 8,000". He was not putting up a fight at all.

Assault Form Frost was never said anywhere in the anime to be stronger than base Cabba, show proof. Final Form Frost was massively wounded when he fought Piccolo so that doesn't really say much about power levels. And it was explicitly stated that base Cabba and base Vegeta matched in both the anime and manga (there is no evidence of Vegeta lying because the people watching also saw the two being equals in base). I've already pointed to the multiple evidence of base Goku and base Vegeta>>>BoG SSG already, so base Cabba is clearly on that level too. There is no way to deny it.

[Hugo Boss]

I rewatched DBS ep.24 on Crunchyroll and Krillins line about Goku being stronger than before was there too. There is not a single translation of that episode without that line. You never gave any proof of it being an error.

I don’t have anything to add to my other comments, you seem to have make up your mind. But oh God this is just absurd. Crunchyroll translated exactly as I said: “Unlike with Beerus, I sense a real indiscribable fear right now”. Unless there is a different version of Crunchyroll, which I don’t believe exists, it’s very easy to see you are using a crap mistranslation, since Krillin doesn’t even tell the names of Goku and Freeza on that sentence.

Guys, guys! Stop fighting!

I’m not fighting. To resume, this tend to start with a common question, which we expect people respond according to this community guidelines. The problem is that some users, specially the new ones, appear to not be familiar with them. Unfortunately, threads like this are lighting rods to low quality discussion and this back-and-forth is just an example.

[dragon boss z]

Wrong. You guys posted no proof of it being mistranslated. Krillin's line was there in the nearly every translation I have watch. It pure denialism on your part.

Episode 24 on crunchy roll, time 4:48
"Unlike with Beerus I sense an indescribable fear right now."

You are the one in denial using fan translations over the official ones. I'll admit I'm wrong if someone like Herms says the translation you are showing is correct.

Wrong. In the anime it was outright stated that Hit and KKx10 Goku were equal in strength, plus Hit was tanking and trading attacks with Goku in that form without much issue.

That was never stated as far as I remember. And it was flat out shown that Blue was stronger. Hit even admitted he wouldn't last long against SSB Goku without time skip.

https://youtu.be/Nw5608X0yCY?t=70

Beerus revealed at the end of the BoG arc that he lied about how much power he was using the whole time.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6237/d0e6f1dacb0 ... 599_hq.jpg

He lied to Goku, but he never said he lied to Vegeta, though he must of since it makes no sense otherwise. Either way if ssj2 rage Vegeta can push Beerus back I don't see why Vegito can't do the same but longer.

the 6-10-15 godscale and stuff about Beerus 70% of his power got retconned in Super.

That was still Toriyama's original vision, and so far the manga actually hasn't really contradicted it. Toriyama clearly wanted god forms to be relevant to a holding back Beerus, but not actually on Beerus' level. Cabba isn't portrayed to even be close to suppressed GoD level.

Also since Goku is half of Vegito and knows full well what he is capable of, the fact that he still thought Vegito wouldn't be enough for Surppressed Beerus proves that Buu saga Vegito is fodder to Super.

Of course Vegito wasn't enough for suppressed Beerus. Nothing they could of done would of been enough. Goku went with SSG becaues it was their only chance. He didn't know if that would work or not either, and it wouldn't of if Beerus was serious.

He matched Suppressed Beerus, that was the point.

Ya and I agree SSG is probably at least a bit above Vegito.

Its was outright stated that they did surpass SSG in base. You are being in denial. This video completely debunks any denial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VnuWEr80tI

That video goes by a lot of assumptions, and I'm pretty sure both Chuck and Seth have admitted Goku heavily held back against the U6 saiyans. I'm pretty sure Seth flat out said he thinks base Goku is at least on par with ssj 2 Caulifla.

The movie versions of BoG and RoF are not canon so they are irrelevant.

There is no canon, the movies are just alternate versions of the anime, just like how the manga is.

The lines about Beerus using 70% of his power where revealed to be lies in the end so that got retconned in Super.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6237/d0e6f1dacb0 ... 599_hq.jpg

How does that image you posted prove this point? It was Whis who said Beerus used 70% in the movie after the were already home. Beerus never told Goku what amount of power he was using in the movie so he never actually lied in the movie. Goku just lost and gave up.

And no it was not always intended for SSG to be stronger than the U6 saiyans.

While I understand why you think what you do, you seriously think the writers think base Cabba is stronger than any version of SSG?

Nor was it ever implied that any version of Zamasu was weaker than SSG. You are just projecting your biases into the story without showing any proof.

When Goku revealed he fought Beerus before Zamasu and Gowasu couldn't believe it.

There is no official power level for Guido, and the fact that he was able to survive hits from Gohan and Krillin who were "over 10,000" shows that Guldo is easily at least much stronger than Nappa. Nappa was completely fodderized by base Goku in the saiyan arc who only had a power level of "over 8,000". He was not putting up a fight at all.

In the manga Guldo didn't take one hit from Gohan or Krillin and he couldn't even react to them. He was only hit once, and it was by Vegeta and it killed him. Maybe it's different in the anime I don't remember. Either way Nappa actually took hits from Goku and Goku used kaioken to beat him quickly.

Assault Form Frost was never said anywhere in the anime to be stronger than base Cabba, show proof. Final Form Frost was massively wounded when he fought Piccolo so that doesn't really say much about power levels. And it was explicitly stated that base Cabba and base Vegeta matched in both the anime and manga (there is no evidence of Vegeta lying because the people watching also saw the two being equals in base). I've already pointed to the multiple evidence of base Goku and base Vegeta>>>BoG SSG already, so base Cabba is clearly on that level too. There is no way to deny it.

Vados calls Frost the most powerful warrior in their universe.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And Frost was barely beat up. Frieza took far more punishment on Namek but was able to keep going, getting punched a few times by a holding back Goku shouldn't be much of a problem.
And in the manga Piccolo and Frost were portrayed as being pretty close. Frost was stronger but Piccolo made him work for it, so final form Frost couldn't stomp Piccolo. Final form Frost at the very least is stronger than base Cabba. That means Piccolo is at the very least comparable to base Cabba. Piccolo at that point was still weaker than Buu as Buu was still the number 3 choice for the team. Goku pretty much flat out said Buu>Piccolo>nerd Gohan.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[kn83]

Episode 24 on crunchy roll, time 4:48
"Unlike with Beerus I sense an indescribable fear right now."

You are the one in denial using fan translations over the official ones. I'll admit I'm wrong if someone like Herms says the translation you are showing is correct.

The translation on Herm's twitter had Krillin's line in it.

That was never stated as far as I remember. And it was flat out shown that Blue was stronger. Hit even admitted he wouldn't last long against SSB Goku without time skip.

https://youtu.be/Nw5608X0yCY?t=70

You are forgetting that Hit in the anime can rapidly boost his strength to adapt to his opponents. That's how he was able to match KKx10 later in the fight.

He lied to Goku, but he never said he lied to Vegeta, though he must of since it makes no sense otherwise. Either way if ssj2 rage Vegeta can push Beerus back I don't see why Vegito can't do the same but longer.

He said he lied to everyone. If he lied about SSG Goku then he logically lied about Vegeta as well.

That was still Toriyama's original vision, and so far the manga actually hasn't really contradicted it. Toriyama clearly wanted god forms to be relevant to a holding back Beerus, but not actually on Beerus' level. Cabba isn't portrayed to even be close to suppressed GoD level.

Original intentions =/= final results. Just because Toriyama originally intended something doesn't mind it remains that way, especially since Toriyama changes his mind all the time. He originally didn't intend for 17, 18 and Cell to exist in the Android arc, so does that mean they canonically don't exist? You see how bad your argument is?

Second, your argument still relies on denying them absorbing the power of SSG into their base which is redundant at this point. And the godscale no longer works since RoF because if SSB Goku is a 6 and full Powered Beerus is a 10, even if SSB was just a 2x boost from SSG that would still make him and Vegeta stronger than Beerus even if you discount the base=god thing. So the godscale just plain doesn't work in any version of Super at this point. And there is absolutely no interview from Toriyama or Toyotaro the suggest anywhere that the U6 saiyans were meant to be as weak as you say. That's just you projecting your biases again.

That video goes by a lot of assumptions, and I'm pretty sure both Chuck and Seth have admitted Goku heavily held back against the U6 saiyans. I'm pretty sure Seth flat out said he thinks base Goku is at least on par with ssj 2 Caulifla.

He used direct statements and guides to prove his points. Also neither Seth nor Chuck has ever said that Goku and Vegeta have ever massively held back against the U6 saiyans. They have said the exact opposite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR7aVCTJi_E

And Seth never said that he thinks base Goku = SSJ2 Caulifla. Plus the show itself contradicts that, as after Caulifla adapts to Goku's fighting skill, her attacks start to have greater power on Goku, forcing him to go SSJ2 also. This reveals that Goku and Caulifla bases aren't that far off, proving again that base Caulfila is god level be scaling in the anime.

There is no canon, the movies are just alternate versions of the anime, just like how the manga is.

There is an official canon, Its the DB/Z/Kai manga and tv anime (without filler), and both versions of Super. The movies, GT and games are not canon.

How does that image you posted prove this point? It was Whis who said Beerus used 70% in the movie after the were already home. Beerus never told Goku what amount of power he was using in the movie so he never actually lied in the movie. Goku just lost and gave up.

That image is from the tv version.

While I understand why you think what you do, you seriously think the writers think base Cabba is stronger than any version of SSG?

Based on the feats they gave Cabba in both version yes. You are once again projecting your desires onto them. You don't know what's in their heads.

When Goku revealed he fought Beerus before Zamasu and Gowasu couldn't believe it.

Zamasu and Gowasu never even seen Goku and Beerus fight in the first, so they have no way of knowing or assuming what form he used. Hell, they didn't even know what a saiyan was before they met Goku as saiyans don't exist in U10. Your arugment here is just baseless assumptions.

In the manga Guldo didn't take one hit from Gohan or Krillin and he couldn't even react to them. He was only hit once, and it was by Vegeta and it killed him. Maybe it's different in the anime I don't remember. Either way Nappa actually took hits from Goku and Goku used kaioken to beat him quickly.

The anime did have Guldo take hits from Gohan and Krillin. Base Goku was version that beat up Nappa.

Vados calls Frost the most powerful warrior in their universe.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Which is clearly false anyway, as that was before Hit revealed his full power and Cabba becomes SSJ. Plus, Frost isn't said to be stronger than Cabba in the anime, which has different scaling.

And Frost was barely beat up. Frieza took far more punishment on Namek but was able to keep going, getting punched a few times by a holding back Goku shouldn't be much of a problem.
And in the manga Piccolo and Frost were portrayed as being pretty close. Frost was stronger but Piccolo made him work for it, so final form Frost couldn't stomp Piccolo. Final form Frost at the very least is stronger than base Cabba. That means Piccolo is at the very least comparable to base Cabba. Piccolo at that point was still weaker than Buu as Buu was still the number 3 choice for the team. Goku pretty much flat out said Buu>Piccolo>nerd Gohan.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

1. The anime and manga have different scaling so using the manga to argue about the anime makes no sense. And don't give me that BS argument about the manga being more "authentic", because both versions are overseen by Toriyama and both follow his outline.

2. Your are assuming that Frost stamina and durability is exactly like Freeza's, which was neither said nor shown to be the case.

3. None of the manga pages you posted say outright say Buu is stronger than Gohan and Piccolo. And its never said anywhere in the anime either. That's just your headcanon. In fact in the anime, both Gohan and Piccolo were recruited for the U6 tournament before Buu was and Gohan only declined because because of his job, not power levels. So its stupid to use that to argue that Buu was ever stronger than them in Super.

[dragon boss z]

[spoiler]

The translation on Herm's twitter had Krillin's line in it.

Post it or link me to it.

You are forgetting that Hit in the anime can rapidly boost his strength to adapt to his opponents. That's how he was able to match KKx10 later in the fight.

He said he improved his time skip, not his actual power.

Original intentions =/= final results. Just because Toriyama originally intended something doesn't mind it remains that way, especially since Toriyama changes his mind all the time. He originally didn't intend for 17, 18 and Cell to exist in the Android arc, so does that mean they canonically don't exist? You see how bad your argument is?

Ya and the original intention was that he wouldn't go SSG anymore because he absorbed the power, but not Goku is going SSG again, so that implies he goes SSG now for the god power.

And the godscale no longer works since RoF because if SSB Goku is a 6 and full Powered Beerus is a 10, even if SSB was just a 2x boost from SSG that would still make him and Vegeta stronger than Beerus even if you discount the base=god thing. So the godscale just plain doesn't work in any version of Super at this point. And there is absolutely no interview from Toriyama or Toyotaro the suggest anywhere that the U6 saiyans were meant to be as weak as you say. That's just you projecting your biases again.

In the movies SSB was a replacement for SSG, not really a transformation above it. SSB was just how they went god without the ritual. The anime and manga changed that, I agree the god scale isn't really relevant to them, though you could argue it still is for the manga, though I actually don't think it is.
For the movies: SSG 6 SSB: 7 Golden Frieza: 7.5 Beerus: 10
Imo for the manga it would be something like SSG: 1-3 SSB: 5 mastered SSB: 7 Beerus 10
And the anime Goku is only around a 5 with his kaioken.

He used direct statements and guides to prove his points. Also neither Seth nor Chuck has ever said that Goku and Vegeta have ever massively held back against the U6 saiyans. They have said the exact opposite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR7aVCTJi_E
And Seth never said that he thinks base Goku = SSJ2 Caulifla. Plus the show itself contradicts that, as after Caulifla adapts to Goku's fighting skill, her attacks start to have greater power on Goku, forcing him to go SSJ2 also. This reveals that Goku and Caulifla bases aren't that far off, proving again that base Caulfila is god level be scaling in the anime.

Actually seth says he thinks they were suppressed against the U6 fighters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMfGz4EXYYU

There is an official canon, Its the DB/Z/Kai manga and tv anime (without filler), and both versions of Super. The movies, GT and games are not canon.

No, there has never been any statement of "canon". The only think that out does everything in terms of "canon" is the original manga. That's it.

Based on the feats they gave Cabba in both version yes. You are once again projecting your desires onto them. You don't know what's in their heads.

No, the story is pretty clear. When Goku goes SSG against Toppo in the manga the GoD of U1 said "they are fighting on the level of us gods". SSG Goku and Toppo are god tier, characters like Cabba and Frost aren't.

The anime did have Guldo take hits from Gohan and Krillin.

I just looked at a youtube video of it and I didn't see them hit Guldo. Can you show me what you are talking about?

Base Goku was version that beat up Nappa.

Base Goku was beating Nappa, but kaioken Goku is the one that finished him off.

Which is clearly false anyway, as that was before Hit revealed his full power and Cabba becomes SSJ. Plus, Frost isn't said to be stronger than Cabba in the anime, which has different scaling.

Hit isn't a warrior, he is an assassin, and Cabba wasn't a ssj at that point so he was still weaker than Frost. And base Cabba seemed weaker than Frost in the anime as well.

1. The anime and manga have different scaling so using the manga to argue about the anime makes no sense. And don't give me that BS argument about the manga being more "authentic", because both versions are overseen by Toriyama and both follow his outline.

Well Toriyama does work closer with Toyotaro than the anime team, and the anime team has multiple writers which makes the scaling kind of messy.

2. Your are assuming that Frost stamina and durability is exactly like Freeza's, which was neither said nor shown to be the case.

He was just punched a few times... Nobody has gotten tired that quickly in dragon ball, lol.

3. None of the manga pages you posted say outright say Buu is stronger than Gohan and Piccolo. And its never said anywhere in the anime either. That's just your headcanon.

"There's no way we can go without Buu! And after that, I was thinking Piccolo." And then Goku called Vegeta nuts for thinking of recruiting Gohan. Clearly Goku thinks Buu is the best. And in the anime during the RoF arc when Buu didn't show up Roshi said "So much for my let Buu handle it plan." Pretty clear Buu is the 3rd strongest fighter they have besides 17 and Gohan after he gets mystic back.

In fact in the anime, both Gohan and Piccolo were recruited for the U6 tournament before Buu was and Gohan only declined because because of his job, not power levels. So its stupid to use that to argue that Buu was ever stronger than them in Super.

Goku thought of Buu before them in the anime as well and he was recruited first. After recruiting Buu Goku said "next stop Piccolo". So now it seems you are just making things up on the fly. Buu was the first choice in both the anime and manga.[/spoiler]

[Zamasu55]

Some new fights:

- Jimeze vs Gotenks (base, Buu arc)

- Maji Kayo vs Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc)
- Katopesla (can use all modes) vs Perfect Cell
- Koichiarator vs Magetta
- Aniraza vs SsjB Goku, SsjB Vegeta and Ssj Rage Trunks (all from the Future Trunks arc; no Genki sword)

- Monna vs Super Buu

- Saonel and Pirina vs Kid Buu
- Kefla (base) vs Ultimate Gohan, 17 and 18 (all from the ToP arc)

- Piccolo (ToP arc) vs 15 Cell Jr's
- True Golden Freeza vs Merged Zamasu (halo)

- Basil, Lavender and Bergamo vs Ssj3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo (all from the Buu arc)

- Obuni vs Buutenks

- Dyspo vs Nuova Shenron
- God of Destruction Toppo vs SsjR Trunks (with Genki sword)

[jeffbr92]

Why kn83 was banned?

[gammabeast21]

Some new fights:

- Jimeze vs Gotenks (base, Buu arc)

- Maji Kayo vs Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc)
- Katopesla (can use all modes) vs Perfect Cell
- Koichiarator vs Magetta

Jimeze vs Gotenks:
-Jimeze wins
Piccolo stated that a SSJ Gotenks could possibly defeat Fat Buu. That makes Base Gotenks between 50 and 10 times weaker than Fat Buu. After Lavenda watched Basil vs Buu he was confident he could defeat Gohan. Through that scaling Base Gohan(DBS) would be relative to Fat Buu. Jimeze basically defeated Base Gohan in the ToP. I say Jimeze would win because he seems like a tactical fighter who exploits blind spots. Gotenks has many techniques but is way too arrogant and sloppy with his guard. Jimeze would methodically beat him and if he couldn't he could just wait out the time of fusion by fleeing with I'm. He also out strategized Gohan who is a more tactical fighter than Gohan.

Maji Kayo vs Ultimate Gohan:
-I Don't Know(Draw)
Maji Kayo basically defeated a suppressed Dyspo. He feels no pain and damage has no permanent affect on him. I put him on a bit stronger than SSG Goku(ToP) level. Personally, I believe Gohan is about equal to 1/3 or 1/4 of SSB Goku(ToP). Maji Kayo plays on opponents emotions by making himself child-like(making opponents hesitant or over confident) or he makes himself look very intimadating. Gohan trained spefically that he wouldn't underestimate his opponents. So victory comes down to if Gohan can stay focused deliver a big enough ki blast to defeat Maji Kayo in one fell swoop. If Maji Kayo captures Gohan or outlasts him then Maji Kayo wins.

Katopesla (can use all modes) vs Perfect Cell
-Katopesla wins
SSJ Vegeta(ToP) used a Final Flash and partially clashed with Katopesla before overpowering him. SSJ Vegeta(ToP) is easlity 100's of times than Perfect Cell. Katopesla easily wins.

Koichiarator vs Magetta
-Koichiarator wins
Koichiarator briefly overpowered Ultimate Gohan. Magetta is possibly stronger SSJ Vegeta(U6 Arc).

[PFM18]

Some new fights:

- Jimeze vs Gotenks (base, Buu arc)

- Maji Kayo vs Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc)
- Katopesla (can use all modes) vs Perfect Cell
- Koichiarator vs Magetta
- Aniraza vs SsjB Goku, SsjB Vegeta and Ssj Rage Trunks (all from the Future Trunks arc; no Genki sword)

- Monna vs Super Buu

- Saonel and Pirina vs Kid Buu
- Kefla (base) vs Ultimate Gohan, 17 and 18 (all from the ToP arc)

- Piccolo (ToP arc) vs 15 Cell Jr's
- True Golden Freeza vs Merged Zamasu (halo)

- Basil, Lavender and Bergamo vs Ssj3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo (all from the Buu arc)

- Obuni vs Buutenks

- Dyspo vs Nuova Shenron
- God of Destruction Toppo vs SsjR Trunks (with Genki sword)

Jimeze wins although I would say it is close if Gotenks goes SSJ3. Gotenks in base is pretty irrelevant at this point

Maji Koyo wins with utmost ease. One shots no problem
Katopesla one shots with a fraction of his power.
Koichiarator stomps easily.

Monna one shots with ease.

Piccolo slaughters the Cell Jrs with a small percentage of his strength.
Merged Zamasu in a close one.

The Trio De Dangers are incredibly confusing as far as where they stand so I am not sure how they would do. I am leaning towards the Buu saga crew that you listed.

Obuni wins fairly easily.

Dyspo wins with mild difficulty in base and slaughters in super speed mode.
I have no idea who would win this one it seems very close. I am slughtly leaning towards Trunks with his Genki sword.

[Kamiccolo9]

Gohan, from the beginning of the fight against Nappa, vs Goku and Piccolo, as of the Raditz fight.

[Hugo Boss]

Some new fights:

- Jimeze vs Gotenks (base, Buu arc)

- Maji Kayo vs Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc)
- Katopesla (can use all modes) vs Perfect Cell
- Koichiarator vs Magetta
- Aniraza vs SsjB Goku, SsjB Vegeta and Ssj Rage Trunks (all from the Future Trunks arc; no Genki sword)

- Monna vs Super Buu

- Saonel and Pirina vs Kid Buu
- Kefla (base) vs Ultimate Gohan, 17 and 18 (all from the ToP arc)

- Piccolo (ToP arc) vs 15 Cell Jr's
- True Golden Freeza vs Merged Zamasu (halo)

- Basil, Lavender and Bergamo vs Ssj3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo (all from the Buu arc)

- Obuni vs Buutenks

- Dyspo vs Nuova Shenron
- God of Destruction Toppo vs SsjR Trunks (with Genki sword)

I think Gohan and Piccolo might have surpassed Gotenks (not counting his SS3 form), so if Jimez can give trouble to Gohan, he probably can beat Gotenks.

Maji Kayo can hold SS Goku but there is no telling about SS2lv+, which Gohan fits in. I think Gohan wins.

Ultimate Katopesla made Vegeta use Super Saiyan and Final Flash, and I’m from the opinion that Vegeta had surpassed Cell in normal conditions. So, if needed Katopesla can combine both speed and power to beat Cell.

Koichiarator incited Gohan to use a super charged kamehameha, while I believe it doesn’t take much more than SS2 to beat Magetta. So, the universe 4 robot wins.

I have the impression Trunks can beat Anilasa by himself if he is careful about the warp attacks.

I don’t think Cabba measures up to Super Boo, at least not until he uses SS2. So, Monna has to work out a bit to be able to challenge this Boo.

Saonel and Pirina can probably outlast Gohan if he doesn’t have a back up, so I think they can probably beat Kid Boo if they work together.

Using a combined strategy of Gohan, No.17 and No.18 might be very effective against Kefla, even if they aren’t quite able to challenge her by themselves.

I think Piccolo has the strength to beat a Cell Jr. but not that much of them. I still think he isn’t quite as strong as SS2 Kid Gohan or even Perfect Cell, given that I don’t believe Gohan was any close to that level when they were training.

Freeza currently can probably beat SSR Goku-Black, but I think Merged Zamas is a bit too much for him, even if this is his weakest state.

I think the wolf brothers from U9 can beat Gotenks and Piccolo with their combination attacks, but if Gohan uses his full power he can beat them by himself.

Obuni has an interesting ability, but I don’t believe he is better than Gohan when he fought Boo, so Boo with Gotenks powers wins.

I have the 4-Star Shadow Dragon at about the same level of a Super Saiyan Blue from Future Trunks Arc if not a bit faster, but if Dyspo can beat True Golden Freeza when he use his full speed, then he can probably beat the dragon too.

The power Trunks used is basically a genkidama, so it’s expected to be a bit greater than kaioken or the evolution of SSB. I don’t think Toppo can destroy that much pure energy, so Trunks wins.

Gohan, from the beginning of the fight against Nappa, vs Goku and Piccolo, as of the Raditz fight.

Considering that Goku and Piccolo can formulate a strategy to beat Raditz, they could probably think about something to beat Gohan too. For example, Piccolo holds Gohan with his stretched arms while Goku charges a kamehameha against him.

[PFM18]

Gohan, from the beginning of the fight against Nappa, vs Goku and Piccolo, as of the Raditz fight.

Wasn't Gohan strong enough to kill a Saibamen during that time? Or am I misremembering?

[Kid Buu]

Gohan, from the beginning of the fight against Nappa, vs Goku and Piccolo, as of the Raditz fight.

Wasn't Gohan strong enough to kill a Saibamen during that time? Or am I misremembering?

His Masenko was at least.

Even with Gohan's higher power level, I'd say his cowardness and lack of experience will probably lead to Goku & Piccolo outsmarting him and winning.

[dragon boss z]

Some new fights:
- Jimeze vs Gotenks (base, Buu arc)

I'll go with Gotenks since Jimeze's best feat is beating on base Gohan. Though I think Jimeze has a chance.

- Maji Kayo vs Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc)

Hard to say but Maji Kayo gave Dyspo and ToP ssj Goku trouble so I guess I'll go with him.

- Katopesla (can use all modes) vs Perfect Cell

Based off of how well he did against ssj Vegeta in the anime, Katoplesa. If it's manga versions Cell stomps as Katoplesa was just fodder.

- Koichiarator vs Magetta

Koickiarator since he went up against 2 SSB and ultimate Gohan.

- Aniraza vs SsjB Goku, SsjB Vegeta and Ssj Rage Trunks (all from the Future Trunks arc; no Genki sword)

If Goku can go kaioken he wins. If he isn't allowed then I guess Anilaza.

- Monna vs Super Buu

Super Buu. Imo he is stronger, and even if he wasn't he just candy beams her as she is a big target.

- Saonel and Pirina vs Kid Buu

If it's after they get used to their fusion each one could solo since they were strong enough to give current ultimate Gohan trouble, and even Buu saga ultimate Gohan could beat kid Buu.

- Kefla (base) vs Ultimate Gohan, 17 and 18 (all from the ToP arc)

The team easily wins. 17 arguably solos. Base Kefla was between a tired SSG and SSB Goku.

- Piccolo (ToP arc) vs 15 Cell Jr's

Based off of his sparring with Gohan before the tournament Piccolo seemed to have finally reached ssj2 tier. Even if it is low ssj2 tier that should be enough, though he may have some trouble.

- True Golden Freeza vs Merged Zamasu (halo)

Merged Zamasu should win quite easily. I think current golden Frieza is comparable to SSR Black.

- Basil, Lavender and Bergamo vs Ssj3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo (all from the Buu arc)

Buu arc team. Basil and Lavender are weaker than Fat Buu, and Bergamo is weaker than current base Goku (though he is arguably above everyone here), but Bergamo won't be enough to carry unless he gets big. In the manga version all the trio de danger are fodder had to team up on base Gohan and Piccolo easily beat Bergamo.

- Obuni vs Buutenks

Buutenks wins. Gohan only had to go mystic because of Obuni's special technique and in mystic form he was tanking his hits. Even if Obuni is stronger than Buu he has no way to put him down.

- God of Destruction Toppo vs SsjR Trunks (with Genki sword)

Genki sword Trunks uses his plot power and cuts through all enemies.

Gohan, from the beginning of the fight against Nappa, vs Goku and Piccolo, as of the Raditz fight.

Goku and Piccolo because they are way better fighters.

[jeffbr92]

- Base Black (vs. SSJ F. Trunks) vs. Super Boo

[Hugo Boss]

- Base Black (vs. SSJ F. Trunks) vs. Super Boo

Considering Base Goku can beat SS3 Gotenks, which was once even with Super Boo, and Black was stronger than SS2 Goku, I would say Black probably wins.