The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[supercat]

It's all speculation until it's somehow stated or proven. SSJ Goku retaining the powers of his ritual was directly stated, so you're basically taking a fan theory (that was probably made up to downplay new characters and previous fodders like 17 and Piccolo) and trying to counter something that was actually said to be a thing.

He did absorb the power, but it makes no sense for his ssj to be equal to SSG, that would mean after losing his god power he became 8x stronger because he could go ssj3. At best Goku's 100% max power after losing god power was equal to SSG, meaning his ssj3 from was equal to SSG. There is no way losing god power would make him stronger. So yest he kept god power, but no he did not all of a sudden get 8x stronger for no reason.

Trunks was never equal to any form of Goku during their brief sparring match.

He was near equal with ssj2 Goku. In the anime he one shot Trunks with ssj3 and in the manga he one shot Trunks with SSG (possible evidence anime ssj3 Goku=SSG)

Also, nothing wrong with Trunks coming back with a huge power up. It's been years since he was last shown in action and with all the training and chaos that he had to endure, I could see him at the very least surpassing levels that were once considered great in the Buu Saga. What's wrong with SSJ3 Goku defeating Trunks? Of course at that point, something like that would be the outcome. Goku as an SSJ3 (vs Future Trunks) was likely far above anything he showcased when faced off against Beerus, so why not?

ssj kid Trunks fought base future Trunks and future Trunks got a little scuffed up, though he did win. So base Trunks being above ssj3 Gotenks is most likely not the case.

Piccolo far surpassed Cell by the time he took on Frost. Plus nothing states him and Frost were close in power. Goku even stated Piccolo doesn't have a chance. Frost could be somewhere around Base Goku but notably below SSJ Goku and that would still put him far far above the likes of SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan.

No he didn't. He seemed to have gotten weaker in the RoF arc (he lost to a Frieza soldier and got one shot by first form Frieza) and recently after years of intense training again he was about equal to a ssj2 Gohan who just started training again and got his arm knocked off from one hit of mystic Gohan who was stated to be equal to his mystic form from the Buu saga.

As for the King Kai thing, it's probably because SSJ Goku was the one who kept the powers of the ritual, whereas Base Goku was not quite at that level yet. Toss that in with a brand new transformation and it's not that farfetched for King Kai to be surprised.

It's still a strange thing for him to say.

But keep in mind, even if Base Goku didn't quite have access to all the powers of his ritual he would still likely be well above anything the Buu saga had to showcase, as SSJ is 50x Base and I have the ritually powered up Goku (vs Beerus) around 75x-100x stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu Saga) and around 150-250x stronger than Buuhan.

It has been directly stated while training with Whis that they will become stronger if they keep all of their ki in their body.

So imo their regular base <<<ssj3 Gotenks<<their base while keeping all of their ki in<current ssj(50x regular base)<<<ssj3<=SSG<SSB(50x base while keeping all their ki in AKA ssj form while keeping all ki in).

This would actually explain a lot.

I disagree with every point you made, but I know no matter how much I debate against them with factual things, you'll probably continue downplaying characters by resorting to the whole "huge power ups make no sense" thing that so many people seem so fond of.

First and foremost, I'm not referencing the manga. Secondly, Tagoma was leagues above Base Gohan who was above Piccolo, who by that point should be stronger than Perfect Cell. I love how you and so many others have no issue saying someone got weaker, yet try to find every possible way to disregard power ups. Also, it was never stated that Piccolo got weaker, so once again, speculation and more fan theories.

The problem with SSJ3 Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) is that it was never stated, whereas SSJ Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) actually was. Toss in all the training that took place afterwards and it's very likely that SSJ Goku actually surpassed his ritually powered up self that fought Beerus.

SSJ Goku kept his ritual powers and probably got stronger to the point his SSJ3 was stronger than that. Have you forgotten that they trained with Whis? Seriously, what is wrong with SSJ3 being 8x stronger than the Goku that fought Beerus? Should they all just stay the same strength and continue getting weaker? Would that make the series better?

Really? Piccolo = SSJ2 Gohan? So I guess strangling the SSJ out of him and Gohan literally asking how he got so powerful means they're equal. Whatever you say.

SSJ3 Goku >> SSJ2 Goku > SSJ Goku (Future Trunks) > SSJ Goku (against Beerus) = Ritually Powered Up Goku (against Beerus) >>>>> Base Goku (RoF) > Final Form Frieza >>> SSJ Vegetto > / = First Form Frieza >> Buuhan

The top fighters from the Buu saga are fodders at this point, and so many things indicate it.

Other than that, to save us both time let's just agree to disagree.

[dragon boss z]

I disagree with every point you made, but I know no matter how much I debate against them with factual things, you'll probably continue downplaying characters by resorting to the whole "huge power ups make no sense" thing that so many people seem so fond of.

I'm using facts too... the reason there is a problem is because dragon ball Super is inconsistent and badly witten, especially when it comes to powersclaing. Some of the things I'm saying are guesses, but same with you.

First and foremost, I'm not referencing the manga. Secondly, Tagoma was leagues above Base Gohan who was above Piccolo, who by that point should be stronger than Perfect Cell.

Here you are making assumptions now. It was never stated Piccolo got stronger than Cell and even after the 7 year time skip he was weaker that Dabura who was Cell tier.

I love how you and so many others have no issue saying someone got weaker, yet try to find every possible way to disregard power ups.

You clearly don't know how getting stronger works in real life. You have to train constantly for years to get just slightly stronger, but if you take time off you get weaker quickly. Moral of the story it's much easier to get weaker than stronger. Not to mention this is flat out shown when Goku stopped training with Whis for a few months he got so rusty he got hurt by a bullet.

Also, it was never stated that Piccolo got weaker, so once again, speculation and more fan theories.

Piccolo seemed to be busy baby sitting and base saiyans were stated to be weaker than Frieza, and Gohan was as weak as ever. Imo the writers legit forgot how strong Piccolo was.

The problem with SSJ3 Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) is that it was never stated, whereas SSJ Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) actually was. Toss in all the training that took place afterwards and it's very likely that SSJ Goku actually surpassed his ritually powered up self that fought Beerus.

That's because at the time ssj was equal to god. After losing SSG his ssj was his full power. Going ssj2 or 3 wouldn't change his power much if at all. Literally the same thing happened in the movie. Goku's base absorbed the power and after going ssj he barely got a boost at all.

SSJ Goku kept his ritual powers and probably got stronger to the point his SSJ3 was stronger than that. Have you forgotten that they trained with Whis? Seriously, what is wrong with SSJ3 being 8x stronger than the Goku that fought Beerus? Should they all just stay the same strength and continue getting weaker? Would that make the series better?

The problem with ssj3 being 8x stronger than his ssj or SSG then is that he didn't try to use it to beat the guy he thought was going to kill everyone. Also Goku said he wasn't strong enough to beat Beerus and he used everything he had. That pretty much confirms ssj Goku fighting Beerus was his max power.

Really? Piccolo = SSJ2 Gohan? So I guess strangling the SSJ out of him and Gohan literally asking how he got so powerful means they're equal. Whatever you say.

They were shown to be close. Piccolo won because he is a better fighter. He might of been a bit stronger.

The top fighters from the Buu saga are fodders at this point, and so many things indicate it.

Good Buu>roid basil>regular basil, and regular basil was doing well in the ToP and fought both base and ssj Goku. Krillin made Goku go ssj and did well in the ToP.

Also evidence Caulifla isn't as strong as you think. She was pushed back by Nappapa even as a ssj, who was casually beaten by final form Frieza. Final form Frieza is equal with base Goku, so that should mean base Goku at full power is above ssj Caulifla.

[dragon boss z]

Boo absorbs Goku and Vegeta on the Kai planet and returns to Earth.

R1 - Can Gotenks stop Boogetto?
R2 - Can Gohan stop Boogetto?

Buu stomps them unless he absorbed them while they were in base.

[supercat]

I disagree with every point you made, but I know no matter how much I debate against them with factual things, you'll probably continue downplaying characters by resorting to the whole "huge power ups make no sense" thing that so many people seem so fond of.

I'm using facts too... the reason there is a problem is because dragon ball Super is inconsistent and badly witten, especially when it comes to powersclaing. Some of the things I'm saying are guesses, but same with you.

First and foremost, I'm not referencing the manga. Secondly, Tagoma was leagues above Base Gohan who was above Piccolo, who by that point should be stronger than Perfect Cell.

Here you are making assumptions now. It was never stated Piccolo got stronger than Cell and even after the 7 year time skip he was weaker that Dabura who was Cell tier.

I love how you and so many others have no issue saying someone got weaker, yet try to find every possible way to disregard power ups.

You clearly don't know how getting stronger works in real life. You have to train constantly for years to get just slightly stronger, but if you take time off you get weaker quickly. Moral of the story it's much easier to get weaker than stronger. Not to mention this is flat out shown when Goku stopped training with Whis for a few months he got so rusty he got hurt by a bullet.

Also, it was never stated that Piccolo got weaker, so once again, speculation and more fan theories.

Piccolo seemed to be busy baby sitting and base saiyans were stated to be weaker than Frieza, and Gohan was as weak as ever. Imo the writers legit forgot how strong Piccolo was.

The problem with SSJ3 Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) is that it was never stated, whereas SSJ Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) actually was. Toss in all the training that took place afterwards and it's very likely that SSJ Goku actually surpassed his ritually powered up self that fought Beerus.

That's because at the time ssj was equal to god. After losing SSG his ssj was his full power. Going ssj2 or 3 wouldn't change his power much if at all. Literally the same thing happened in the movie. Goku's base absorbed the power and after going ssj he barely got a boost at all.

SSJ Goku kept his ritual powers and probably got stronger to the point his SSJ3 was stronger than that. Have you forgotten that they trained with Whis? Seriously, what is wrong with SSJ3 being 8x stronger than the Goku that fought Beerus? Should they all just stay the same strength and continue getting weaker? Would that make the series better?

The problem with ssj3 being 8x stronger than his ssj or SSG then is that he didn't try to use it to beat the guy he thought was going to kill everyone. Also Goku said he wasn't strong enough to beat Beerus and he used everything he had. That pretty much confirms ssj Goku fighting Beerus was his max power.

Really? Piccolo = SSJ2 Gohan? So I guess strangling the SSJ out of him and Gohan literally asking how he got so powerful means they're equal. Whatever you say.

They were shown to be close. Piccolo won because he is a better fighter. He might of been a bit stronger.

The top fighters from the Buu saga are fodders at this point, and so many things indicate it.

Good Buu>roid basil>regular basil, and regular basil was doing well in the ToP and fought both base and ssj Goku. Krillin made Goku go ssj and did well in the ToP.

Also evidence Caulifla isn't as strong as you think. She was pushed back by Nappapa even as a ssj, who was casually beaten by final form Frieza. Final form Frieza is equal with base Goku, so that should mean base Goku at full power is above ssj Caulifla.

The power scale seems off to some people because characters are receiving random power ups to the extent of which the fandom is probably not very used to. There is nothing wrong with any of that though. This is Dragon Ball, so obviously new powerful characters appearing while existing ones receive greater than before power ups is what makes the show great.

Actually, I am going off of what was stated. Such as SSJ Goku keeping the powers of his ritual and also getting even stronger than that after training with Whis. Things like SSJ Goku losing access to that power and needing SSJ3 to barely reach it are all fan theories. Maybe his multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 went down, but they weren't big multipliers to begin with, so there's nothing wrong with adding on 2x or even 8x on top of ritual powers.

I love how you're giving me tips on how to get stronger in real life in an anime discussion. Not that it matters, but I happen to be an avid strength training enthusiast myself and know for a fact that real life situations don't really relate to Dragon Ball. I can't believe I even have to clarify that. Besides, power ups have never been consistent anyway. And even in real life, the amount of strength one obtains is never consistent.

If the writers forgot how strong Piccolo was, then they could have forgotten how weak someone like Krillin was and beefed him up. Going by this, we could just assume Krillin magically got strong enough to push Goku to use SSJ. You see how your theories and speculations are so open ended? Wait until someone actually says his time as a babysitter made him weaker before throwing it in debates. Until then, more fan theories.

As for Gohan vs Piccolo, Gohan was completely helpless and would have been destroyed right then and there if it weren't training.

So Piccolo nearly destroys Gohan, but they're are equal, and Caulifla defeats Napapa without a scratch, but she was struggling and deserves a lower spot on the power scale, just because got pushed back a tiny bit. Do you not see the problem with that? The first scenario was a complete stomp as was the second one.

The whole Basil thing was likely due to very good teamwork. Plus, how was Goku struggling? Buu was the moron who got beat around. Sure, it's likely due to his crappy fighting style, but that still doesn't change the fact that he was kicked around like a soccer ball in the beginning. Universe 9 is full of weaklings and even then, they were barely weaker than Buu.

Krillin did well against the fodders. The top fighters and even most of the mid-tier fighters (Frost, Magetta, Cabba) would likely solo the entire Buu saga effortlessly.

[HeroR]

I disagree with every point you made, but I know no matter how much I debate against them with factual things, you'll probably continue downplaying characters by resorting to the whole "huge power ups make no sense" thing that so many people seem so fond of.

I'm using facts too... the reason there is a problem is because dragon ball Super is inconsistent and badly witten, especially when it comes to powersclaing. Some of the things I'm saying are guesses, but same with you.

First and foremost, I'm not referencing the manga. Secondly, Tagoma was leagues above Base Gohan who was above Piccolo, who by that point should be stronger than Perfect Cell.

Here you are making assumptions now. It was never stated Piccolo got stronger than Cell and even after the 7 year time skip he was weaker that Dabura who was Cell tier.

I love how you and so many others have no issue saying someone got weaker, yet try to find every possible way to disregard power ups.

You clearly don't know how getting stronger works in real life. You have to train constantly for years to get just slightly stronger, but if you take time off you get weaker quickly. Moral of the story it's much easier to get weaker than stronger. Not to mention this is flat out shown when Goku stopped training with Whis for a few months he got so rusty he got hurt by a bullet.

Also, it was never stated that Piccolo got weaker, so once again, speculation and more fan theories.

Piccolo seemed to be busy baby sitting and base saiyans were stated to be weaker than Frieza, and Gohan was as weak as ever. Imo the writers legit forgot how strong Piccolo was.

The problem with SSJ3 Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) is that it was never stated, whereas SSJ Goku = Ritually Powered Up Goku (vs Beerus) actually was. Toss in all the training that took place afterwards and it's very likely that SSJ Goku actually surpassed his ritually powered up self that fought Beerus.

That's because at the time ssj was equal to god. After losing SSG his ssj was his full power. Going ssj2 or 3 wouldn't change his power much if at all. Literally the same thing happened in the movie. Goku's base absorbed the power and after going ssj he barely got a boost at all.

SSJ Goku kept his ritual powers and probably got stronger to the point his SSJ3 was stronger than that. Have you forgotten that they trained with Whis? Seriously, what is wrong with SSJ3 being 8x stronger than the Goku that fought Beerus? Should they all just stay the same strength and continue getting weaker? Would that make the series better?

The problem with ssj3 being 8x stronger than his ssj or SSG then is that he didn't try to use it to beat the guy he thought was going to kill everyone. Also Goku said he wasn't strong enough to beat Beerus and he used everything he had. That pretty much confirms ssj Goku fighting Beerus was his max power.

Really? Piccolo = SSJ2 Gohan? So I guess strangling the SSJ out of him and Gohan literally asking how he got so powerful means they're equal. Whatever you say.

They were shown to be close. Piccolo won because he is a better fighter. He might of been a bit stronger.

The top fighters from the Buu saga are fodders at this point, and so many things indicate it.

Good Buu>roid basil>regular basil, and regular basil was doing well in the ToP and fought both base and ssj Goku. Krillin made Goku go ssj and did well in the ToP.

Also evidence Caulifla isn't as strong as you think. She was pushed back by Nappapa even as a ssj, who was casually beaten by final form Frieza. Final form Frieza is equal with base Goku, so that should mean base Goku at full power is above ssj Caulifla.

The power scale seems off to some people because characters are receiving random power ups to the extent of which the fandom is probably not very used to. There is nothing wrong with any of that though. This is Dragon Ball, so obviously new powerful characters appearing while existing ones receive greater than before power ups is what makes the show great.

Actually, I am going off of what was stated. Such as SSJ Goku keeping the powers of his ritual and also getting even stronger than that after training with Whis. Things like SSJ Goku losing access to that power and needing SSJ3 to barely reach it are all fan theories. Maybe his multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 went down, but they weren't big multipliers to begin with, so there's nothing wrong with adding on 2x or even 8x on top of ritual powers.

I love how you're giving me tips on how to get stronger in real life in an anime discussion. Not that it matters, but I happen to be an avid strength training enthusiast myself and know for a fact that real life situations don't really relate to Dragon Ball. I can't believe I even have to clarify that. Besides, power ups have never been consistent anyway. And even in real life, the amount of strength one obtains is never consistent.

If the writers forgot how strong Piccolo was, then they could have forgotten how weak someone like Krillin was and beefed him up. Going by this, we could just assume Krillin magically got strong enough to push Goku to use SSJ. You see how your theories and speculations are so open ended? Wait until someone actually says his time as a babysitter made him weaker before throwing it in debates. Until then, more fan theories.

As for Gohan vs Piccolo, Gohan was completely helpless and would have been destroyed right then and there if it weren't training.

So Piccolo nearly destroys Gohan, but they're are equal, and Caulifla defeats Napapa without a scratch, but she was struggling and deserves a lower spot on the power scale, just because got pushed back a tiny bit. Do you not see the problem with that? The first scenario was a complete stomp as was the second one.

The whole Basil thing was likely due to very good teamwork. Plus, how was Goku struggling? Buu was the moron who got beat around. Sure, it's likely due to his crappy fighting style, but that still doesn't change the fact that he was kicked around like a soccer ball in the beginning. Universe 9 is full of weaklings and even then, they were barely weaker than Buu.

Krillin did well against the fodders. The top fighters and even most of the mid-tier fighters (Frost, Magetta, Cabba) would likely solo the entire Buu saga effortlessly.

It should be noted that Piccolo always trains according to Toriyama and Piccolo implied this in Super when he trained Gohan. So Piccolo may babysit, but he still trains so he wouldn't regressed. Plus, it would make Piccolo a hypocrite for getting on Gohan for letting his body get soft.

So, there're no way Piccolo regressed.

[LowRyder2005]

Regarding Tagoma, it should be noted that the show actually goes at length in implying that the alien should be in the same ballpark of a rested base Gohan per Gohan's own words (Herms himself went at length at clarifying this on his Twitter); a tired and out of shape Super Saiyan Gohan is enough to defeat him effortlessly.

Good Buu>roid basil>regular basil, and regular basil was doing well in the ToP and fought both base and ssj Goku.

That's the gist of it. Goku fights both Lavenda and Basil one on one, and if he was really much more powerful than Buu they could have hit him and left him unfazed. Good Buu being - at least retroactively - made stronger than the base Saiyans (regardless of what happened before) is a complete no-brainer at this point. Basil can still give trouble to base Goku, but not even the powered up Basil can inflict any lasting damage to Good Buu: either that or you have to argue that Good Buu grew stronger off screen.

But anyway, I dare say that Buu acting as a measuring stick is also completely unneeded to prove the point that a retcon (or, well, just some plotholes galore?) or something of the sort took place: the synopsis for ep. 95 stating in very clear terms that "Gohan trains with Piccolo to regain his lost strength", with the episode mentioning the "strength he used to defeat Majin Buu", Gohan being unable to "evoke his original strength", Goku stating that Gohan's showings in the exhibition matches were disappointing compared to what he remembered, and yadda yadda yadda. Even if one wanted to argue that Gohan's Super Saiyan 1 or 2 form was (somehow?) close or near his Ultimate self from the Buu saga thanks to some particular off-screen training that made him grow miraculously and exponentially, it still wouldn't make logical sense: his base form (around 1/50 or 1/100 of Ultimate Gohan) would be weaker than Gotenks (probably around 2/3 of the same Ultimate Gohan, if Buutenks is any indication), and yet the show portrays Gohan as at least a little above base Goku - again, being generous to Goku -, which means that according to the Copy Water arc base Gohan should've been stronger than Gotenks as well.

Base Goku: 49 <- needs to be at least a little weaker than SS Gohan
SS Gohan: 50 <- since Goku turns Super Saiyan to fight him
SS3 Gotenks: 80
SS2 Gohan: 100 <- "Gohan trains with Piccolo in order to regain his lost strength", let's say SS2 Gohan needs to a little below Ultimate Gohan and that Goku was just being gratuitously harsh
Base Goku: 100 <- needs to be untouchable against SS3 Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan: 120

The irony is that, by gathering the bones we have been thrown, even people who go for assertions likes "there's just one base" for the sake of simplicity, you literally end up with Gohan being stronger and weaker than Gotenks at the same time, and with two different base Goku(s). It might be most accurate to say that the show itself represents Goku with very fluctuating levels of strength, at least.

[supercat]

Once SSJ Goku = ritually powered up Goku is accepted, everything simplifies. After all, it was stated, so there's no reason to downplay it or come up with fan theories to try and change it somehow.

Assuming Final Form Frieza (RoF) was using 3% of his power like he was on Namek during his initial clash with Goku.

Buutenks: 0.5
Buuhan: 1
First Form Frieza: 2.8
SSJ Vegetto: 3
Final Form Frieza: 8-14
Base Goku (RoF): 9-15
SSJ Goku: 450 - 750
SSJ2 Goku: 900 - 1,500
SSJ3 Goku: 7,200 - 12,000

Assuming Final Form Frieza was actually using 100% of his power, and was able to access this power without bulking up.

Buutenks: 0.5
Buuhan: 1
First Form Frieza: 2.8
SSJ Vegetto: 3
Final Form Frieza: 320 - 560
Base Goku (RoF): 360 - 600
SSJ Goku: 18,000 - 30,000
SSJ2 Goku: 36,000 - 60,000
SSJ3 Goku: 288,000 - 480,000

SSJ3 Goku >> SSJ2 Goku > SSJ Goku = Ritually powered up Goku (vs Beerus) >>>>>>>>>> Base Goku > / = Final Form Frieza >>>> SSJ Vegetto >/= First Form Frieza > Buuhan > Buutenks

Buu saga power levels seem quite trivial at this point.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't quite understand what's so hard to grasp about the concept: Gohan can't be hundreds of times stronger than his former self if Goku, characters and official material report that he has "less strength" than the Gohan of old. Goku also confesses his disappointment to Piccolo in the episodes following the exhibition matches stating that Gohan had underperformed given the power Goku remembered. These are not fan theories, it's just reporting what the show stated.

We do know Gohan is stronger than base Goku (again, unless we were to theorize Goku is behaving irrationally, like turning Super Saiyan and then powering down to weaker than base levels) and weaker than Ultimate Gohan at the same time; the distance between Gotenks and "prime" Ultimate Gohan couldn't however be more than 50% of Gohan's power or so, given that Super Buu + Gotenks (or just something equivalent to "Super Buu * 2-ish") surpasses and corners that Ultimate Gohan.

Also how do you fit Basil and Lavenda in those numbers? They're around 0.1/ 0.5 and yet "with teamwork" their blows can individually hurt Goku and Vegeta who are thousands of times stronger? Or they're a 400 and yet Basil can't hurt Good Buu who's thousands of times weaker?

[dragon boss z]

The power scale seems off to some people because characters are receiving random power ups to the extent of which the fandom is probably not very used to. There is nothing wrong with any of that though. This is Dragon Ball, so obviously new powerful characters appearing while existing ones receive greater than before power ups is what makes the show great.

No, there are legit plot holes in the power scaling (unless you accept Goku and Vegeta have 2 base powers or hold back all of the time)

For example Piccolo was clearly weaker than Tagoma (who got one shot by base Vegeta) and killed effortlessly by first form Frieza (who is weaker than final form Frieza who was equal to base Goku). 3rd form Frost was about equally fighting with base Goku, possibly even with an advantage (though it did seem like Goku was holding back) but after going final form both Goku and Vegeta went ssj to beat him, so at the very least they couldn't beat final form Frost easily in base. However Piccolo was able to dodge Frost's attacks and even hold him in place and would of won if Frost didn't cheat. Going off of Piccolo's fight Frost should be even weaker than first form Frieza, and going off Goku/Vegeta's fight Frost should be stronger than final form Frieza. And you can't just say Piccolo got a lot stronger because so did Goku and Vegeta (they went into the ROSAT for 3 years, Piccolo didn't go in at all).

The only way I could think to explain this without the two base theory or Goku and Vegeta holding back is if Piccolo really did get Rusty in the RoF arc, and he got his mojo back for the U6 arc.

Actually, I am going off of what was stated. Such as SSJ Goku keeping the powers of his ritual and also getting even stronger than that after training with Whis. Things like SSJ Goku losing access to that power and needing SSJ3 to barely reach it are all fan theories. Maybe his multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 went down, but they weren't big multipliers to begin with, so there's nothing wrong with adding on 2x or even 8x on top of ritual powers.

I'm also pretty sure Goku said he used his max power on Beerus. This is a contradiction if he could go ssj3 and get stronger.

I love how you're giving me tips on how to get stronger in real life in an anime discussion. Not that it matters, but I happen to be an avid strength training enthusiast myself and know for a fact that real life situations don't really relate to Dragon Ball. I can't believe I even have to clarify that. Besides, power ups have never been consistent anyway. And even in real life, the amount of strength one obtains is never consistent.

I never gave you a tip how to get stronger? I just pointed out how in real life it takes longer to get stronger than to get weaker. That isn't strength advice at all, lol. And I know real life is different than dragon ball, but that's why I gave a dragon ball example. Goku stopped training for a few months and got hurt by a bullet. By his own admittance he got weaker, same thing happened to Krillin a couple episodes before that. So that is 2 characters who have been confirmed to have gotten weaker due to lack of training.

If the writers forgot how strong Piccolo was, then they could have forgotten how weak someone like Krillin was and beefed him up. Going by this, we could just assume Krillin magically got strong enough to push Goku to use SSJ. You see how your theories and speculations are so open ended? Wait until someone actually says his time as a babysitter made him weaker before throwing it in debates. Until then, more fan theories.

I do think the writers messed up on the Goku vs Krillin fight. Krillin would should still get rofl stomped by namek Frieza.

As for Gohan vs Piccolo, Gohan was completely helpless and would have been destroyed right then and there if it weren't training.

Gohan and Piccolo were equal before Piccolo caught him off guard.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Litterally the same thing happened to Frost and Frost was way above Piccolo.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Once Piccolo wraps his arms around his opponent he gets the advantage. Piccolo may of been stronger, but like I said, ssj2 Gohan was strong enough to hold his own.

So Piccolo nearly destroys Gohan, but they're are equal,

Addressed above

and Caulifla defeats Napapa without a scratch, but she was struggling and deserves a lower spot on the power scale, just because got pushed back a tiny bit.

She was pushed back across a good portion of the stage and really struggled. And I know ssj Caulifla is stronger than Nappapa, but she should still be weaker than Frieza who casually beat him like he was nothing.

The whole Basil thing was likely due to very good teamwork. Plus, how was Goku struggling?

In a 1v1 he wasn't struggling but if he is as strong as you say he should of one shot all of them without a problem. Also base Goku lost to Fat Buu who trained for one day. Imo full power base Goku is around Buuhan level, which would explain why he and Vegeta are above ssj3 Gotenks, but still have some trouble Buu saga level characters.

Buu was the moron who got beat around. Sure, it's likely due to his crappy fighting style, but that still doesn't change the fact that he was kicked around like a soccer ball in the beginning. Universe 9 is full of weaklings and even then, they were barely weaker than Buu.

Buu was much stronger than Basil. Buu was just playing around. He overpowered roided out Basil who was probably multiple times stronger than usual. I would say Bergamo is around Fat Buu level (before absorbing power), with Basil and Lavender being around android to Buu saga ssj tiers.

Krillin did well against the fodders. The top fighters and even most of the mid-tier fighters (Frost, Magetta, Cabba) would likely solo the entire Buu saga effortlessly.

I disagree here. I think Frost, Magetta, and ssj Cabba are all high Buu saga tier, but I don't think any of them could even solo Buuhan. Maybe they can now, but as the U6 tournament I didn't see anything that would lead me to think they could. Magetta is a tank, but he could easily get hit by a candy beam and he can't fly and is pretty slow. Frost only won by cheating and would of lost to Piccolo if he didn't, and Piccolo can't solo the entire Buu saga, so Frost wouldn't either. And when it comes to Cabba, he probably wasn't anywhere near Vegeta's full power, as he couldn't even phase Vegeta with a full power punch to the face.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So this pretty much means Vegeta was holding back the whole time.

[Chickenchaser]

Cabba (Base/SSJ) VS Maggetta/Botamo/Frost (Champa Saga) who could beat him?

[dragon boss z]

Cabba (Base/SSJ) VS Maggetta/Botamo/Frost (Champa Saga) who could beat him?

He stalemates Botamo (if it's a tournament Cabba wins)
In base he loses to Maggetta and Frost (frost was stated to be the strongest warrior in U6)

In ssj I think he could beat Frost just because ssj seam to be the weakness to Frieza's race, but I'm not sure if he could beat Magetta. He wouldn't really be able to damage, but if it's a tournament he could maybe knock him out. Possible stalemate.

[Dragonballgod19]

The power scale seems off to some people because characters are receiving random power ups to the extent of which the fandom is probably not very used to. There is nothing wrong with any of that though. This is Dragon Ball, so obviously new powerful characters appearing while existing ones receive greater than before power ups is what makes the show great.

No, there are legit plot holes in the power scaling (unless you accept Goku and Vegeta have 2 base powers or hold back all of the time)

For example Piccolo was clearly weaker than Tagoma (who got one shot by base Vegeta) and killed effortlessly by first form Frieza (who is weaker than final form Frieza who was equal to base Goku). 3rd form Frost was about equally fighting with base Goku, possibly even with an advantage (though it did seem like Goku was holding back) but after going final form both Goku and Vegeta went ssj to beat him, so at the very least they couldn't beat final form Frost easily in base. However Piccolo was able to dodge Frost's attacks and even hold him in place and would of won if Frost didn't cheat. Going off of Piccolo's fight Frost should be even weaker than first form Frieza, and going off Goku/Vegeta's fight Frost should be stronger than final form Frieza. And you can't just say Piccolo got a lot stronger because so did Goku and Vegeta (they went into the ROSAT for 3 years, Piccolo didn't go in at all).

The only way I could think to explain this without the two base theory or Goku and Vegeta holding back is if Piccolo really did get Rusty in the RoF arc, and he got his mojo back for the U6 arc.

Actually, I am going off of what was stated. Such as SSJ Goku keeping the powers of his ritual and also getting even stronger than that after training with Whis. Things like SSJ Goku losing access to that power and needing SSJ3 to barely reach it are all fan theories. Maybe his multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 went down, but they weren't big multipliers to begin with, so there's nothing wrong with adding on 2x or even 8x on top of ritual powers.

I'm also pretty sure Goku said he used his max power on Beerus. This is a contradiction if he could go ssj3 and get stronger.

I love how you're giving me tips on how to get stronger in real life in an anime discussion. Not that it matters, but I happen to be an avid strength training enthusiast myself and know for a fact that real life situations don't really relate to Dragon Ball. I can't believe I even have to clarify that. Besides, power ups have never been consistent anyway. And even in real life, the amount of strength one obtains is never consistent.

I never gave you a tip how to get stronger? I just pointed out how in real life it takes longer to get stronger than to get weaker. That isn't strength advice at all, lol. And I know real life is different than dragon ball, but that's why I gave a dragon ball example. Goku stopped training for a few months and got hurt by a bullet. By his own admittance he got weaker, same thing happened to Krillin a couple episodes before that. So that is 2 characters who have been confirmed to have gotten weaker due to lack of training.

If the writers forgot how strong Piccolo was, then they could have forgotten how weak someone like Krillin was and beefed him up. Going by this, we could just assume Krillin magically got strong enough to push Goku to use SSJ. You see how your theories and speculations are so open ended? Wait until someone actually says his time as a babysitter made him weaker before throwing it in debates. Until then, more fan theories.

I do think the writers messed up on the Goku vs Krillin fight. Krillin would should still get rofl stomped by namek Frieza.

As for Gohan vs Piccolo, Gohan was completely helpless and would have been destroyed right then and there if it weren't training.

Gohan and Piccolo were equal before Piccolo caught him off guard.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Litterally the same thing happened to Frost and Frost was way above Piccolo.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Once Piccolo wraps his arms around his opponent he gets the advantage. Piccolo may of been stronger, but like I said, ssj2 Gohan was strong enough to hold his own.

So Piccolo nearly destroys Gohan, but they're are equal,

Addressed above

and Caulifla defeats Napapa without a scratch, but she was struggling and deserves a lower spot on the power scale, just because got pushed back a tiny bit.

She was pushed back across a good portion of the stage and really struggled. And I know ssj Caulifla is stronger than Nappapa, but she should still be weaker than Frieza who casually beat him like he was nothing.

The whole Basil thing was likely due to very good teamwork. Plus, how was Goku struggling?

In a 1v1 he wasn't struggling but if he is as strong as you say he should of one shot all of them without a problem. Also base Goku lost to Fat Buu who trained for one day. Imo full power base Goku is around Buuhan level, which would explain why he and Vegeta are above ssj3 Gotenks, but still have some trouble Buu saga level characters.

Buu was the moron who got beat around. Sure, it's likely due to his crappy fighting style, but that still doesn't change the fact that he was kicked around like a soccer ball in the beginning. Universe 9 is full of weaklings and even then, they were barely weaker than Buu.

Buu was much stronger than Basil. Buu was just playing around. He overpowered roided out Basil who was probably multiple times stronger than usual. I would say Bergamo is around Fat Buu level (before absorbing power), with Basil and Lavender being around android to Buu saga ssj tiers.

Krillin did well against the fodders. The top fighters and even most of the mid-tier fighters (Frost, Magetta, Cabba) would likely solo the entire Buu saga effortlessly.

I disagree here. I think Frost, Magetta, and ssj Cabba are all high Buu saga tier, but I don't think any of them could even solo Buuhan. Maybe they can now, but as the U6 tournament I didn't see anything that would lead me to think they could. Magetta is a tank, but he could easily get hit by a candy beam and he can't fly and is pretty slow. Frost only won by cheating and would of lost to Piccolo if he didn't, and Piccolo can't solo the entire Buu saga, so Frost wouldn't either. And when it comes to Cabba, he probably wasn't anywhere near Vegeta's full power, as he couldn't even phase Vegeta with a full power punch to the face.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So this pretty much means Vegeta was holding back the whole time.

Well vegeta is already a master super saiyan while cabba was just a newbie at it that's why

[Ki Breaker]

Cabba (Base/SSJ) VS Maggetta/Botamo/Frost (Champa Saga) who could beat him?

Base and SS Cabba loses to magetta, unless he decides to insult him

Base and SS Cabba loses to botamo, way too op of a quirk botamo has got

Base cabba loses to frost, SS cabba wins

[Steven Bloodriver]

1) I don't get the reference.

2) Ultra Super Saiyan Future Trunks vs. Semi-Perfect Cell (Kaioken Times Two).

1- it's signifying once a in a blue moon event..
I too don't get your reference? It's titled funny frog ..?

2- Today's episode goku said ultra form isn't good for long battles and cauliflowa literally collapsed after two puches ( even if that's wasn't even a long battle, It takes more time to take a piss, goku.. )
So considering it's weaknesses in a long battle ( take it from the cell saga if you might ) I say, trunks loses way too much mobility to defeat him..

1) I had believed you were mooning me in a clever way, by using the Full Moon. Seems I was mistaken, but the Kitten shared my reaction to your hidden photo of a Blue Moon.

2) Super Gogeta (Trunks Saga) vs. Future Android 17.

3) GT Vegito (Shadow Dragon Saga) vs. Omega Shenron.

[dragon boss z]

Well vegeta is already a master super saiyan while cabba was just a newbie at it that's why

The same could be said about there base forms. There is form is what they trained with Whis and they learned how to keep their ki from leaking.

[Berserker1921]

1) I don't get the reference.

2) Ultra Super Saiyan Future Trunks vs. Semi-Perfect Cell (Kaioken Times Two).

1- it's signifying once a in a blue moon event..
I too don't get your reference? It's titled funny frog ..?

2- Today's episode goku said ultra form isn't good for long battles and cauliflowa literally collapsed after two puches ( even if that's wasn't even a long battle, It takes more time to take a piss, goku.. )
So considering it's weaknesses in a long battle ( take it from the cell saga if you might ) I say, trunks loses way too much mobility to defeat him..

1) I had believed you were mooning me in a clever way, by using the Full Moon. Seems I was mistaken, but the Kitten shared my reaction to your hidden photo of a Blue Moon.

2) Super Gogeta (Trunks Saga) vs. Future Android 17.

3) GT Vegito (Shadow Dragon Saga) vs. Omega Shenron.

1. Gogeta slaughters 17. Remember is they're power added to each other times 2-5 times. In base he could put a good fight for 17. Super gogeta would slaughter him. Would prob be perfect cell level.

2. What Vegito? Ssj1? 2? 3? 4?

Well ssj1, vegito loses. Ssj2, he might win. I would have them being even. Ssj3, Slaughters omega. Probably is more less ssj4 gogeta at this level. Ssj4, Vegito just looks at omega and he is dead. That's over kill. Lol

[Ki Breaker]

Strongest opponent Kale could beat

[AvatarReiko]

- SSJ Kale & Caulifa vs SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan(Buu saga)
- SSJ Ikari Trunks vs Berserk Kale
- SSJ2 Caulifa vs SSJ2 Trunks
- Super 17(GT) vs 17(DBS)
- SSJ4 Goku vs SSJ3 Goku(DBS)

Normal Zamasu(No immortality) runs the Buu gauntlet.
1.) Good Buu
2.) Fat Buu
3.) Kid Buu
4.) Uub
5.) Super Buu
6.) Buuhan
7.) Majuub(GT)

[DBZ Macky]

- SSJ Kale & Caulifa vs SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan(Buu saga)
- SSJ Ikari Trunks vs Berserk Kale
- SSJ2 Caulifa vs SSJ2 Trunks
- Super 17(GT) vs 17(DBS)
- SSJ4 Goku vs SSJ3 Goku(DBS)

Normal Zamasu(No immortality) runs the Buu gauntlet.
1.) Good Buu
2.) Fat Buu
3.) Kid Buu
4.) Uub
5.) Super Buu
6.) Buuhan
7.) Majuub(GT)

- While Kale might be on par with Goku, Caulifla holds a significant advantage over the U7 Saiyans. Kale and Caulifla win.
- SS Ikari Trunks stomps. Goku was holding back a ton against Kale, IMO.
- They're about equal in power, but Trunks wins due to being an actual fighter instead of some goon. And he's probably more used to SS2.
- (Super) 17 wins.
- Both of them are stronger than each other and weaker than each other at the same time. The match never ends as both of them keep "holding back".

Zamasu defeats Good Buu, but loses easily to Fat Buu.

[Lord Beerus]

- SSJ Kale & Caulifa vs SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan(Buu saga)
- SSJ Ikari Trunks vs Berserk Kale
- SSJ2 Caulifa vs SSJ2 Trunks
- Super 17(GT) vs 17(DBS)
- SSJ4 Goku vs SSJ3 Goku(DBS)

Normal Zamasu(No immortality) runs the Buu gauntlet.
1.) Good Buu
2.) Fat Buu
3.) Kid Buu
4.) Uub
5.) Super Buu
6.) Buuhan
7.) Majuub(GT)

- I'd give this to Kale and Caulifla but it would be a close fight
- SSJ Ikari Trunks power is really ambiguous. The best SSJ Ikari Trunks could do was to hold his own against SSJR Goku Black and/or Zamasu but Goku Black kept getting stronger with every fight so whether he could match that is not really conclusive. Especially since we see that Merged Zamasu sent SSJ Ikari Trunks flying with one punch and SSJ Ikari Trunks was desperately trying to prevent himself from getting killing by Bulked Merged Zamasu. We see Berserk Kale walk through a Kamehameha from SSJB Goku, but despite that SSJB wasn't using all of his power given he stated he would used "a little more power" after the initial attempt failed to even stun Berserk Kale. Of course, by this stage, Goku has grown stronger from the events of the Future Trunks arc. I'm not sure how to call this. My brain tell me Berserk Kale would wipe the floor with SSJ Ikari Trunks, but my gut says otherwise.
- Caulifla get stomped into the dirt. Goku needed SSJ3 to take care of SSJ2 Future Trunks.
- The strength is really unclear given the nature of his fight with SSJB Goku. But characters were reserving strength but to how much of a degree they were is uncertain. I guess I gotta with Android 17 because Goku felt he needed to use SSJB.
- SSJ3 Goku gets ground into the dirt. SSJ3 is strong but not that strong.

Normal Zamasu clears the gauntlet. We see that he is very much SSJB tier with how well he performs against SSJB Goku and Vegeta.