The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[jeffbr92]

- Base Black (vs. SSJ F. Trunks) vs. Super Boo

Considering Base Goku can beat SS3 Gotenks, which was once even with Super Boo, and Black was stronger than SS2 Goku, I would say Black probably wins.

Yes, but saying that is like saying SSJ F. Trunks > SSJ Gotenks, which is absurd.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan, from the beginning of the fight against Nappa, vs Goku and Piccolo, as of the Raditz fight.

If Gohan is in character, he gets solo'd by Piccolo. Bloodlusted Gohan casually rips them both in half though.

[Analytic]

Potara Fusion of Goku and Gohan (restricted to SS1) vs. Vegetto (can go up to SS3)

[Hugo Boss]

- Base Black (vs. SSJ F. Trunks) vs. Super Boo

Considering Base Goku can beat SS3 Gotenks, which was once even with Super Boo, and Black was stronger than SS2 Goku, I would say Black probably wins.

Yes, but saying that is like saying SSJ F. Trunks > SSJ Gotenks, which is absurd.

Well, even if Trunks isn’t quite as strong as Black, it doesn’t seem like he is that much weaker, since he hesitated a bit about admitting inferiority to Black, so I think it’s safe to say at least SS2 Trunks happens to be stronger than Base Goku, which by extension has power enough to eclipse current SS3 Gotenks. The idea wouldn’t be so absurd if we take into account that Goten and Kid Trunks haven’t been training since they fought Boo, which could imply they became weaker and the fusion just made it more evident.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Potara Fusion of Goku and Gohan (restricted to SS1) vs. Vegetto (can go up to SS3)

SSJ Vegetto wins for me. Old Kaioshin did say he was the strongest:

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

[Zamasu55]

New fights:

Rozie and Kakunsa vs Ssj Goten and Ssj Trunks (Buu arc, post RoSaT)

Aniraza vs all U6's ToP team (fusion isn't allowed, so no Kefla)

Ganos (transformed) vs Ginyu Force (no body change)
Majora and Shosa vs Tenshinhan and Yamcha (Buu saga)

Ssj2 Caulifla vs Ssj GT Gohan (Super 17 arc)
Ssj Kefla vs SsjR Goku Black (ep. 64, so he can use his schyte and thus summon his clones)

UI Omen Goku (ep. 110) vs SsjB KKx20 Goku and Ssj Evolution Vegeta (ep. 127, so the ones who fought against FP Jiren)
17 (ToP) vs Golden Freeza (RoF)

[PFM18]

New fights:

Rozie and Kakunsa vs Ssj Goten and Ssj Trunks (Buu arc, post RoSaT)

Aniraza vs all U6's ToP team (fusion isn't allowed, so no Kefla)

Ganos (transformed) vs Ginyu Force (no body change)
Majora and Shosa vs Tenshinhan and Yamcha (Buu saga)

Ssj2 Caulifla vs Ssj GT Gohan (Super 17 arc)
Ssj Kefla vs SsjR Goku Black (ep. 64, so he can use his schyte and thus summon his clones)

UI Omen Goku (ep. 110) vs SsjB KKx20 Goku and Ssj Evolution Vegeta (ep. 127, so the ones who fought against FP Jiren)
17 (ToP) vs Golden Freeza (RoF)

Rozie and Kakunsa one shot them.

Aniraza wins if they don't have Kefla there and Hit can't use his assassination techniques. This is also assuming they don't know about Aniraza's weakness.

The Ginyu Force. If Roshi can beat Ganos then I think the GInyu could do it pretty easily.
I'll take Majora and Shosa in a close one. I don't think Tenshinhan or Yamcha could compete with 18 like Majora did

Caulifla slaughters Gohan in one shot with a minimal amount of power.
Kefla one shots.

I think the duo takes it here. SSB Evolution got a huge power boost in 126 when he figured out how to use all the power from it against Toppo.
17 wins with mild to moderate difficulty.

- Base Black (vs. SSJ F. Trunks) vs. Super Boo

Considering Base Goku can beat SS3 Gotenks, which was once even with Super Boo, and Black was stronger than SS2 Goku, I would say Black probably wins.

Yes, but saying that is like saying SSJ F. Trunks > SSJ Gotenks, which is absurd.

SSJ Future Trunks in DBS? that isn't absurd that is an obvious fact. Trunks' SSJ2 was on par with Goku's SSJ2 when Goku's base can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks

[jeffbr92]

Yes, but saying that is like saying SSJ F. Trunks > SSJ Gotenks, which is absurd.

SSJ Future Trunks in DBS? that isn't absurd that is an obvious fact. Trunks' SSJ2 was on par with Goku's SSJ2 when Goku's base can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks

Of course it is, you're telling me that F. Trunks who did nothing but run from Black got stronger than two hybrid fused Saiyans at their full power? Bullshit, sorry. I think worse than that is believing that SSJ Cabba is stronger than Vegetto.

[dragon boss z]

Rozie and Kakunsa vs Ssj Goten and Ssj Trunks (Buu arc, post RoSaT)

Rozie and Kaunsa stomp. Imo Goten and Trunks are in the namek final form Frieza range, while Rozie and Kakunsa are probably somewhere in the android to buu saga ssj range.

Aniraza vs all U6's ToP team (fusion isn't allowed, so no Kefla)

U6. Hit breaks Anilaza's head thing, and then everyone else works together to push him off.

Ganos (transformed) vs Ginyu Force (no body change)

Ginyu force stomps.

Majora and Shosa vs Tenshinhan and Yamcha (Buu saga)

Probably Majora and Shosa based on how well they did against 18 and current Krillin.

Ssj Kefla vs SsjR Goku Black (ep. 64, so he can use his schyte and thus summon his clones)

Probably ssj Kefla. She seemed at least a bit above SSB Goku who at that point should be above Black.

UI Omen Goku (ep. 110) vs SsjB KKx20 Goku and Ssj Evolution Vegeta (ep. 127, so the ones who fought against FP Jiren)

The team should be enough. UI Omen Goku lacks attack power and if the team could land hits on Jiren they can probably do the same to UIO Goku.

17 (ToP) vs Golden Freeza (RoF)

I think Frieza still has the power advantage, but I think 17 is strong and smart enough to outlast Frieza, so 17 probably wins.

[PFM18]

Yes, but saying that is like saying SSJ F. Trunks > SSJ Gotenks, which is absurd.

SSJ Future Trunks in DBS? that isn't absurd that is an obvious fact. Trunks' SSJ2 was on par with Goku's SSJ2 when Goku's base can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks

Of course it is, you're telling me that F. Trunks who did nothing but run from Black got stronger than two hybrid fused Saiyans at their full power? Bullshit, sorry. I think worse than that is believing that SSJ Cabba is stronger than Vegetto.

I mean that information is laid out pretty clear for us in the series. You can say that you dislike it but it is just a fact that Future Trunks>Gotenks in any given form. Trunks is on par with Goku in the Zamasu Arc, and Goku can beat SSJ3 Gotenks in base with the utmost ease. The series is pretty blatantly showing us that Future Trunks is leaps and bounds above Gotenks. You can call it dumb and that is your opinion but at the end of the day the fact is Future Trunks>Gotenks. And no, SSJ Cabba>SSJ Vegetto is not even a question it is an indisputable fact based on the information that we are given. The question is if Base Cabba >SSJ Vegetto. Me personally, I think Cabba in base is slightly stronger than SSJ Vegetto but that is just my opinion and the other way could be argued, but once you throw the 50x multiplier on it then it isn't even a question at all. Everybody in Super is just astronomically stronger than their Buu saga selves, and if you are a relevant character in Super then you can smack anything we saw in Z and that is just how it is

As far as Trunks running away from Black somehow being a counterargument, that doesn't make sense considering Base Black>>>>>>>>>>Buu or anything from Z.

[Hugo Boss]

And no, SSJ Cabba>SSJ Vegetto is not even a question it is an indisputable fact based on the information that we are given.

Vegeta got stronger since he fought U6 fighters, we don’t know how SS3 Gotenks would fair against a weaker Vegeta. And basing on the moment in which SS Vegeta takes a full power blow from SS Cabba on his forehead with no effect, I think Cabba is in turn much weaker than that Vegeta. Also, SS Vegetto is at least four steps ahead SS3 Gotenks from Boo Arc, it doesn’t seem to be settled.

[PFM18]

And no, SSJ Cabba>SSJ Vegetto is not even a question it is an indisputable fact based on the information that we are given.

Vegeta got stronger since he fought U6 fighters, we don’t know how SS3 Gotenks would fair against a weaker Vegeta. And basing on the moment in which SS Vegeta takes a full power blow from SS Cabba on his forehead with no effect, I think Cabba is in turn much weaker than that Vegeta. Also, SS Vegetto is at least four steps ahead SS3 Gotenks from Boo Arc, it doesn’t seem to be settled.

Vegeta went to Planet Patafu almost immediately after the tournament there wasn't a time skip as far as I am aware. I guess we don't "know" how Gotenks would fair against the previous forms of Vegeta but based on the information we are given with Goku and Vegeta's base, they were far beyond ssj3 Gotenks well before the U6 tournament. The fact that Base Cabba was even with Vegeta, and SSJ Cabba was even with Vegeta, just shows that anything in the Buu saga is nothing compared to either of SSJ Cabba at this point since he is relative to SSJ Vegeta. Vegeta far surpassed Super Saiyan God in his normal Super Saiyan form and Cabba could match it. Vegetto is far beyond SSJ3 Gotenks of course, but if one can dominate SSJ3 Gotenks in their base I would imagine it would not be outlandish to conclude that in their SSJ form(a 50x boost) could beat SSJ Vegetto.

Pretty much any Buu saga fighter is irrelevant when compared to DBS characters right now

[Dragon Ball Gus]

I got two hypothetical questions for today.

1) How strong would Goku Black be if he achieved Super Saiyan Rosé Evolution?

2) How strong would Goku be if he achieved Super Saiyan Blue Evolution? I'm not expecting him to be as strong as his UI counterpart, but would he come pretty close?

[Pantalones]

The fact that Base Cabba was even with Vegeta, and SSJ Cabba was even with Vegeta

I just rewatched the Vegeta vs. Cabba fight and I don't see how anyone thinks they're actually equal.

In base form Vegeta's catching or dodging almost all of Cabba's blows with little apparent effort (meanwhile Cabba seems to be getting a little worn out just from that brief exchange.) Cabba's Gallic Gun is so weak in comparison to Vegeta that he's able to catch it in his hands and then counter it with one of his own that he didn't even need time to charge. When they're both Super Saiyan, Vegeta's having ki blasts rained down on him and just laughs and waves his hand, causing ALL of Cabba's blasts to detonate in midair. He then takes a full-force punch to the forehead with his eyes shut and doesn't even flinch, #16-vs.-Semi-Perfect-Cell style.

Vegeta and Cabba were never anywhere near equal in power. He was holding back the whole time, just making it look relatively even so as to see what Cabba's capable of and then teach him how to go Super Saiyan. Considering that everything else Vegeta says in the fight (up until it's over) is just to get Cabba riled up enough to go Super Saiyan, I don't see why anyone takes his random statement that they're evenly matched in base form seriously -- that was just Vegeta giving Cabba a bit of hope, trying to put the idea of "hey, if I transform like him then I'd be able to beat him!" in his mind before showing him how much stronger Super Saiyan is compared to his base form.

[Paulus42]

It is so sad, that SSJ3 Gotenks vs Base Vegeta in an arc which clearly never happened in Toriyamas outline is apparently the Basis for all the powerscaling, no matter how little sense it makes in context to other fighters (Piccolo lol) and how its not even close to beeing consistent with other showings, such as SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan. Apparently TOEI just forgot in the Potafeu Arc, that they had retconned "Saiyan Beyond God" after the ROF Arc. I see no reason to include such a clear outliner in vs battles. As in the manga Base Goku and Vegeta imo are rather not much stronger in Base in the Super anime than they were in the Buu Arc.

So no someone like Monna does not beat Super Buu.

[Hugo Boss]

And no, SSJ Cabba>SSJ Vegetto is not even a question it is an indisputable fact based on the information that we are given.

Vegeta got stronger since he fought U6 fighters, we don’t know how SS3 Gotenks would fair against a weaker Vegeta. And basing on the moment in which SS Vegeta takes a full power blow from SS Cabba on his forehead with no effect, I think Cabba is in turn much weaker than that Vegeta. Also, SS Vegetto is at least four steps ahead SS3 Gotenks from Boo Arc, it doesn’t seem to be settled.

Vegeta went to Planet Patafu almost immediately after the tournament there wasn't a time skip as far as I am aware.

I don’t know if you check the episodes before posting, but having Crunchyroll at our disposal helps to have a clear assessments of official translations of Dragon Ball Super in its entirety, which unfortunately can’t be said about Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, until of course I acquire the whole stuff legally. For reference, Goku really says Vegeta got stronger when they are fighting in their normal forms.

For the rest of your post, I agree with Pantalones in pretty much everything. I would just add that the notion that Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan God in his regular Super Saiyan form is just a theory.

1) How strong would Goku Black be if he achieved Super Saiyan Rosé Evolution?

2) How strong would Goku be if he achieved Super Saiyan Blue Evolution? I'm not expecting him to be as strong as his UI counterpart, but would he come pretty close?

For the first question, I would say he could become stronger than current SSB Goku but nothing like what Vegeta did in the tournament. For the second, I think he would be equal to Vegeta, which is still weaker than Ultra Instinct Omen in my opinion.

[dragon boss z]

SSJ Future Trunks in DBS? that isn't absurd that is an obvious fact. Trunks' SSJ2 was on par with Goku's SSJ2 when Goku's base can stomp SSJ3 Gotenks

Of course it is, you're telling me that F. Trunks who did nothing but run from Black got stronger than two hybrid fused Saiyans at their full power? Bullshit, sorry. I think worse than that is believing that SSJ Cabba is stronger than Vegetto.

I mean that information is laid out pretty clear for us in the series. You can say that you dislike it but it is just a fact that Future Trunks>Gotenks in any given form. Trunks is on par with Goku in the Zamasu Arc, and Goku can beat SSJ3 Gotenks in base with the utmost ease. The series is pretty blatantly showing us that Future Trunks is leaps and bounds above Gotenks. You can call it dumb and that is your opinion but at the end of the day the fact is Future Trunks>Gotenks.

But then we have ssj kid Trunks fight with base future Trunks and was able to hurt him a bit and scuffed up his face. But kid Trunks was more scuffed up, so base future Trunks>Ssj kid Trunks, but the fact he was hurt at all implies he can't just tank ssj3 Gotenks' attacks.

[PFM18]

Of course it is, you're telling me that F. Trunks who did nothing but run from Black got stronger than two hybrid fused Saiyans at their full power? Bullshit, sorry. I think worse than that is believing that SSJ Cabba is stronger than Vegetto.

I mean that information is laid out pretty clear for us in the series. You can say that you dislike it but it is just a fact that Future Trunks>Gotenks in any given form. Trunks is on par with Goku in the Zamasu Arc, and Goku can beat SSJ3 Gotenks in base with the utmost ease. The series is pretty blatantly showing us that Future Trunks is leaps and bounds above Gotenks. You can call it dumb and that is your opinion but at the end of the day the fact is Future Trunks>Gotenks.

But then we have ssj kid Trunks fight with base future Trunks and was able to hurt him a bit and scuffed up his face. But kid Trunks was more scuffed up, so base future Trunks>Ssj kid Trunks, but the fact he was hurt at all implies he can't just tank ssj3 Gotenks' attacks.

That was not exactly a serious fight and shouldn't be taken seriously from a scaling perspective. It wasn't even really a fight. I don't think that serves to contradict the idea that Trunks could tank SSJ3 Gotenks in base. I think he is pretty close to Goku's base in the Future Trunks arc so he should be able to dominate SSJ3 Gotenks, although maybe not quite to the same extent that Copy Vegeta did or Goku could have

I don’t know if you check the episodes before posting, but having Crunchyroll at our disposal helps to have a clear assessments of official translations of Dragon Ball Super in its entirety, which unfortunately can’t be said about Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, until of course I acquire the whole stuff legally. For reference, Goku really says Vegeta got stronger when they are fighting in their normal forms.

For the rest of your post, I agree with Pantalones in pretty much everything. I would just add that the notion that Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan God in his regular Super Saiyan form is just a theory.

No, I do not check any and every episode that I reference before posting no. I don't think that is really particularly realistic to do on every post. I apologize if I was mistaken on that

And no, Vegtea surpassing Super Saiyan God in regular Super Saiyan is not a theory that is all but explicitly stated to the audience. Goku is ATLEAST equal to SSG in his normal SSJ form at the end of the fight with Beerus. He said he doesn't feel weaker and performs atleast as well as his SSG self just prior. Nothing implied he lost this boost. Then, Vegeta goes to train with Whis first and Goku comments that Vegeta surpassed him. This is something that the story tried to thoroughly emphasize, that being the immense boost that Goku and Vegeta received during this time frame. This is further reinforced several times. So, no I do not think that is a theory as much as it is an accepted fact.

[dragon boss z]

That was not exactly a serious fight and shouldn't be taken seriously from a scaling perspective. It wasn't even really a fight. I don't think that serves to contradict the idea that Trunks could tank SSJ3 Gotenks in base. I think he is pretty close to Goku's base in the Future Trunks arc so he should be able to dominate SSJ3 Gotenks, although maybe not quite to the same extent that Copy Vegeta did or Goku could have

I mean can a filler scene that Toriyama didn't come up with be taken seriously either? It was made pretty clear that Trunks had trouble with Dabura, and I don't think much time passed since then. The manga made it seem Black started his attack right after Dabura was beaten so it was probably only a few years since then for Trunks. So why would he magically go from Buu saga tier to god tier? I agree the years of fighting with black pushed him past Buu saga level, but not his base form. Also it is highly likely the whole point of fighting against ssj3 Goku, which is a form Goku barely uses now, was to show how Trunks stood in power at this point. The anime had him lose badly to ssj3, though Goku absorbed god ki in that version, while in the manga Trunks was actually able to match ssj3 Goku, but casually one shot by SSG showing he isn't god tier. So I would agree that if Trunks goes ssj2 he beats ssj3 Gotenks, and maybe even regular ssj, but I don't think he could in base unless his base is only a few times weaker than his ssj. I could see Trunks maybe being around buu saga Vegito level at max.

[PFM18]

That was not exactly a serious fight and shouldn't be taken seriously from a scaling perspective. It wasn't even really a fight. I don't think that serves to contradict the idea that Trunks could tank SSJ3 Gotenks in base. I think he is pretty close to Goku's base in the Future Trunks arc so he should be able to dominate SSJ3 Gotenks, although maybe not quite to the same extent that Copy Vegeta did or Goku could have

I mean can a filler scene that Toriyama didn't come up with be taken seriously either? It was made pretty clear that Trunks had trouble with Dabura, and I don't think much time passed since then. The manga made it seem Black started his attack right after Dabura was beaten so it was probably only a few years since then for Trunks. So why would he magically go from Buu saga tier to god tier? I agree the years of fighting with black pushed him past Buu saga level, but not his base form. Also it is highly likely the whole point of fighting against ssj3 Goku, which is a form Goku barely uses now, was to show how Trunks stood in power at this point. The anime had him lose badly to ssj3, though Goku absorbed god ki in that version, while in the manga Trunks was actually able to match ssj3 Goku, but casually one shot by SSG showing he isn't god tier. So I would agree that if Trunks goes ssj2 he beats ssj3 Gotenks, and maybe even regular ssj, but I don't think he could in base unless his base is only a few times weaker than his ssj. I could see Trunks maybe being around buu saga Vegito level at max.

I didn't mean serious from a non-universe perspective. I mean as in the fact that Future Trunks was not serious during this altercation I believe it is fair to say he wasn't using much power and it really would be a shitty scene if Kid trunks punched him and it did absolutely nothing. Dabura could have been any time within the 13 years since we have seen Future Trunks in the story so I don't think much can be drawn from that. "God tier" as far as DBS goes doesn't necessarily mean "Super Saiyan God tier" because SSG really isnt very strong in the scope of things. I think he was stronger than SSG but not God tier within the series until he reaches Super Saiyan Rage, prior to that he couldn't touch SSB or even SSJ3 for that matter. It is pretty clear that if he can compete with Goku's SSJ2 at all then he definitely is beyond Vegetto from the Buu saga, it is more of a question of whether you think it is stupid that that is the case or not.