The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

kn83
Banned
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by kn83 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:02 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: Yet he still thought he could be a match to Beerus and beat him as a SsjG. Trying to ignore something the show has already given us is not really an argument.
When did he say this?
If all you're gonna do is ignore the refutes then sorry, but you're repeating yourself. I'll continue arguing with you as soon as you start arguing with me properly. Not trying to be offensive but this should be a fair argument. I'm not using headcanon or anything, you ignored this as well: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17060&p=1463404#p1463404
All you are doing is abusing statements that are literally just made up by the episode writter that weak. That stuff isn't coming from Toriyama. If you want to take all statements 100% literally you have to admit current final form Frieza's supernova is only planet level and everyone weaker than that move isn't planet level.
NOT ONCE has this even been mentioned. That's utter headcanon. I don't even know where you got that from. This isn't an argument if you have zero evidence to support yourself with
I do have evidence.
1. Goku would of went ssj2 or ssj3 on Beerus and made himself stronger if he could of. Since he didn't that means he couldn't at the time.
2. In an interview Toriyama said Goku wouldn't go SSG again because he absorbed the power, but now he is going SSG again so that means he must not of absorbed all of the power.
3. In the BoG movie Goku had to go SSG one last time to stop Beerus' attack, meaning SSG was the strongest power he had.
4. Goku and Vegeta went ssj on Frost, the trio de danger, and a bunch of other fodder. If you really think any of those fodder are above SSG level, I really don't know what to say.
That's even more assumption. His Power NEVER lowered down but instead started to gradually increase. Again, you're assuming something happened out of thin air
During the fight it was, but afterwards it looked like his power went back down as Krillin was able to survive a full power base punch to his face, and Vegeta caught up with him after 4 months. Training for 4 months isn't nearly enough time for their base to go from below Frieza level to above SSG. Even Frieza, who never trained a day in his life and is a prodigy only grew about that much. The saiyans have been training for their whole lives, they can't make magic gains like that anymore.
I don't understand where you're getting all this. I've clarified all of this in my refute, but you ignored it. Again, you're just assuming this happened when in fact something else happened, which I showed evidently
Like I said, SSG had to of been Goku's max power because if not that means he could of multiplied ssj3 to try and Beerus, but even with his world on the line he didn't. And in the movie version SSG Goku was confirmed to be 60% of Beerus, so if Goku truly absorbed all of the power into his ssj form, then if he would of went ssj2 or ssj3 he would of been stronger than Beerus. But Goku clearly couldn't of done that or he would of.

Even if I completely accept Goku absorbing SSG into his ssj form, that only means his ssj form is SSG level. His base form would still be weaker.
Because Beerus is far stronger than Goku and he was holding back which I showed in my refute in the first part which includes Goku's training with Vegeta. Many evidences show that Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG. Goku is far too weak in comparison to Beerus, as SsjG Goku BoG was fodder to him. Goku realized that at the end of the battle and by Whis.
I know Beerus was heavily holding back, but how would Goku know by how much?
Nice assumption. Issue is, though, Goku wouldn't challenge someone many times above him. Beerus is shown to be far above Goku
And tell me how Goku would know Beerus is hundreds of times stronger than him? Beerus never told him that and actually told Goku he was going all out. Obviously we as the audience knows, but Goku shouldn't know.
And in base form as well. I already clarified this, but you obviously didn't read it all and just skimmed through it. Maybe it was too long?
Yes, it was too long. You should try and make your points more concise. But I did read the part you are talking about and Beerus never said "base form" just because they were in their base when he said it means nothing. He was clearly talking about their full power.
Even more speculation. Had trouble with Rusty base Gohan? When? What? If you mean When Goku fought Gohan on Episode 75 then that proves nothing. Goku would obviously holding back, and 1 easily arguable evidence is not disproving over 50 solid evidences
I agree that episode made no sense, but so does a lot of Super.
Roshi has gotten stronger in the Tournament of Power that he reached a level where he can sense God Ki. As much as it doesn't make sense, it's proven, so disregarding it because "I don't believe it!" isn't an argument (Goku was also holding back against Roshi. Roshi only made Goku's fist tingle, which at the very least makes Roshi far beyond Gotenks Ssj3 and probably any thing above in DBZ)
This is the reason we can't see eye to eye. Roshi clearly isn't mean to be that strong. You are one of the few people who would say Roshi is probably beyond anything in Z. Roshi can't just secretly train and become stronger than ssj3 Goku or ssj Vegito.
Frost is a God Tier Character for being able to combat with Base Goku. Stop trying to assume the level of characters without any Basis. What makes you think Frost isn't a God Tier if he fought Base Goku? Nothing.
Piccolo almost beat Frost, and Frost was stated to be no match for final form Frieza by Champa.
Fit Buu >>>>>>>>>>>> Good "fat" Buu. Comparing Both is an invalid argument.
Buu only trained for a few hours. At best he would a couple times stronger than before.
Trio De Dangers? The only character I remember being able to fight Base Goku truthfully is Bergamo, and the rest is just obviously a demonstration of Goku holding back against them, unless they got stronger. That would make Basil > Bergamo, by your logic, despite Base Goku kicking Bergamo easily.
Goku and Vegeta went ssj against the trio and then they even went SSB to finish them off. 2 of them are weaker than Fat Buu, and one of them is stronger. So Goku and Vegeta went SSB against 3 opponents, two of which are weaker than Fat Buu, lol.
You don't choose what's to be right and what's to be wrong and meant. What we're given and shown is what we follow. Kefla's base being above SsjG means their base forms are God Tier considering that Base Goku > SsjG BoG, and if their bases are Buu Saga Tier they'd he Vegito Buu Saga Level which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case. Saiyan Beyond God Theory is not even possible in the slightest as it's contradicted on multiple occasions
I don't think I sad the U6 saiyans were Buu saga tier. Imo they are above that, but definitely not god tier. Also Kefla was so strong because of Kale's hidden potential.
Goku's base being above SsjG is proven and is never contradicted directly. Most new characters are written to be a match for Goku and Vegeta this way, SHOWN by how Whis stated that if Goku and Vegeta don't get "this" strong, they won't be able to see the world which lies ahead, which is where we are now
It was never proven.
Bad writing isn't an excuse to refute something or anything. Since it's bad writing, we have to Roll with it
We have to roll with feats. You are talking statements out of context and trying pretty much wanking every character to as strong as they could possibly be.

If Goku's base is really SSG tier or higher, he just holds back on everyone, period. It's also possible they decided to retcon his base being SSG level and bring back the SSG form like the manga did.
Characters like Frost clearly aren't supposed to be SSG tier and all the fodder in Super aren't magically above everyone from Z. Fat Buu beat a powered up Basil, Gohan and Goku said Krillin couldn't even beat base Basil, Krillin pushed Goku to go ssj. That's enough proof that Goku goes ssj against people who are even weaker than fat Buu.
1. Base Goku and Vegeta absorbing and surpassing SSJG in their base has been literally stated multiple times in both the anime and manga. There is nothing to debate at this point, with base Copy-Vegeta one-shotting SSJ3 Gotenks, then base Goku matching him and other feats.

2. Current Fat Buu is much stronger than he was in the Buu saga. You are forgetting that transformations in this series are multipliers, not set tiers. Just because Buu didn't use his fit form against Basil doesn't mean their power levels are only in the Buu saga range.

3. The fact that base Cabba was shown to be anywhere near base Vegeta (as admitted by Vegeta himself in both the anime and manga) is enough proof that the U6 saiyans are god tier.

4. Just because a character uses a transformation doesn't necessarily mean they needed to, since DB characters can suppress their powers in any form. As shown by MSSJ Goku and Gohan during the 10 day wait for the Cell Games. Goku was clearly holding back with Krillin and 18, but 17 is definitely SSJB tier especially with his feats in the ToP.

5. Frost is clearly WAY stronger than Z-Frieza, as his fight with U6 arc Piccolo (who scales to at least Mystic Gohan) shows.

Its pretty clear by that by now all of Z is fodder compared to the majority of the ToP fighters.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:28 pm

kn83 wrote: 1. Base Goku and Vegeta absorbing and surpassing SSJG in their base has been literally stated multiple times in both the anime and manga. There is nothing to debate at this point, with base Copy-Vegeta one-shotting SSJ3 Gotenks, then base Goku matching him and other feats.
It was said Goku's body addapted tot he experience, and it was said he didn't feel differernt when he was a ssj. It was never said they had the power of SSG while in base.
And it never even happened in the manga, you completely made that up. Goku fought as a SSG the entire fight and never lost the power and it was never stated he absorbed it into his base. You completely made that up. Y
2. Current Fat Buu is much stronger than he was in the Buu saga. You are forgetting that transformations in this series are multipliers, not set tiers. Just because Buu didn't use his fit form against Basil doesn't mean their power levels are only in the Buu saga range.
That is your head canon. Buu has no reason to be any stronger than before. Dragon ball z characters don't just magically get stronger because it's the next arc. Buu is Buu tier unless stated other wise. Only fit Buu is stated to have gotten stronger.
3. The fact that base Cabba was shown to be anywhere near base Vegeta (as admitted by Vegeta himself in both the anime and manga) is enough proof that the U6 saiyans are god tier.
In the manga Goku and Vegeta didn't absorb god ki into their base as mentioned above, and as for the anime it turned out that Vegeta was holding back when he no sold Cabba's punch to his face and when Frieza completely clowned Cabba.
Also it is pretty clear they had Buu get disqualified because he would sweep most of U6. If Buu would of lost to them they would of just had him fight, but they had to get rid of him because he was too OP. Same reason he wasn't there for RoF. Buu is too strong and would mess up the plot. Only Hit would of beaten Buu.
4. Just because a character uses a transformation doesn't necessarily mean they needed to, since DB characters can suppress their powers in any form. As shown by MSSJ Goku and Gohan during the 10 day wait for the Cell Games. Goku was clearly holding back with Krillin and 18, but 17 is definitely SSJB tier especially with his feats in the ToP.
Yes, and this is a possibility.
5. Frost is clearly WAY stronger than Z-Frieza, as his fight with U6 arc Piccolo (who scales to at least Mystic Gohan) shows.
Yes, I know that. Imo Frost is perfect Cell to Super Buu tier. I meant he wasn't RoF/ToP final form Frieza tier.
Its pretty clear by that by now all of Z is fodder compared to the majority of the ToP fighters.
Not sure what you are saying here. Imo a majority of the ToP fighters are below Buu tier.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:Toriyama didn't "fuck up there" because that was utterly intended. Goku's reason to lie was to let Goten and Trunks have a shot against Buu, and the fact that the next generation should take care of things, as Goku is dead:

Spoiler:View


That's not "Fucking up", because this was the purpose of Goku's lie.
Boo asked Goku if the guy who was gonna fight him as strong, and Goku flat out ignored him and left. I'm sure Toriyama made a mistake there.
You know, i'm generally unwilling to call something a inconsistence, but considering this is the same arc everyone thinks Gohan is gone forever even though he never died...

Your "Goku was lying" argument also has no base other than you using one or two odd statements to say Goku was a liar and doomed everyone. Goku is one of the bluntest characters of the series. When something is going to have a bad outcome, he admits so.
What? Goku > Fat Buu, and he could have beated him:

Spoiler:View


And Gotenks was states capable of beating Buu, despite Goku specifying 2 Days:

Spoiler:View


Goku originally wanted 3 Days, but because he didn't want to delay the time of killings, he wanted it 2 Days to happen as fast as possible so that Goten and Trunks will become powerful enough.

Goku originally gave the impression that he is no match for Buu, and that as a Ssj3 he just didn't try to beat him:

Spoiler:View


So everyone thinks Goku is fodder to Fat Buu at 100% of his power, and there's no reason to lie. Goku's statement to Piccolo, despite it saying "Think", it is also stated he "thinks" so because he didn't try.

Most of the statements which Goku was hyping Hypothetical Gotenks with were before Goku seeing Goten and Trunks's Full powers. Goku is absolutely not impressed with Goten and Trunks and implies he expected more:

Spoiler:View


Hence, he states later on this:

Spoiler:View


Then Goku says that he told buu Gotenks is stronger than him? Non of this adds up and it contradicts the fact that he in fact never told him that, which means Goku is calming Piccolo down. Goku's Gamble is about Gotenks's power, because he already knows that Buu will not destroy earth.

Goku thought Gotenks could beat Buu before sensing their energy, despite having no time and no certainty when would Babidi destroy earth, or any of that sort, yet Goku later suggests they need training?

Goku didn't even think about leaving the job for Goten and Trunks, and wanted to fuse himself with either Gohan or Vegeta. He probably forgot, but anyways it still doesn't change the fact that he didn't consider it at first.

Piccolo saying that they need to Room of Spirit And Time is above Learning fusion, not train. Originally, Piccolo is saying that it will take time to learn the technique:

Spoiler:View


Hence Piccolo asks him

Goku was pressured by the fact that they have no time, and still was even after Babidi admitted that they'll wait for 5 days:

Spoiler:View


So Goku had 5 days, after sensing Goten and Trunks's power. But it was still a gamble, however its immoral to leave Buu killing people irrationally, thus he minimized the time needed. Before any time limit is mentioned, Goku implied that the kids might need it later, and this is them while Goku is saying that they don't have time, hence they might need more time later on using the ROSAT:

Spoiler:View


Goku's statement is General, so Goten and Trunks might need the ROSAT later for power usage any time.

Goku says that they might beat Buu in 30 minutes before sensing their Ki but later it's shown he overestimated them:



Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”



All of Goku's statement contradict Goku's original thoughts. He mentions that they will beat Buu in no time at all, despite implying they need time? Obviously Goku is trying to ease Piccolo and the rest, and that was what the atmosphere depended on.

Piccolo was worried about the humans on earth, and that's why Goku said not to go and die as Gotenks will be enough to beat him:

Spoiler:View


No statement about Gotenks has been mentioned without it being for a reason to establish, not literally.

Even in that same scan, Goku says that Babidi will destroy Earth either way so Piccolo should not care, and this also shows that Goku back then is uncertain of when will Babidi destroy earth, so he's just being hopeful, which is supported all the way

Another good point is this:



Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”



1) This confirms the atmosphere to be all worried of the circumstances which are yet to happen with many doubts.

2) Goku says "perfect" the technique. The only time Gotenks perfects the technique was in the ROSAT, and even then they haven't trained as much as Piccolo AND Goku wished for. Though he did get stronger than before than he can beat Fat Buu, nothing suggests he's above Goku

All these arguments show that Goku's Gamble is in fact true and that we shouldn't expect much from Gotenks as he's too early. Daizenshuu even has Gotenks Pre ROSAT below Vegeta which makes sense with the context

Piccolo wanted Gotenks to TRAIN despite knowing he can go Ssj:

Spoiler:View


The Viz translation is not clear with Piccolo's statement, but it is similar to the original.

Look at the following:



Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P7.5
Context: as Gotenks is about to fight Boo
Piccolo: “Pl-please…Let there be a miracle…”



This statement did occur when super buu was around, however Krillin doesn't know that this Buu has gotten astronomically stronger than Fat Buu, since he still was believing in the possibility that Gotenks could go against Him. He thought Gotenks could take him on like Goku was telling them, despite Goku referencing the fact that they need time to train. Piccolo states "even in just 1 hour", meaning he wanted more:

Spoiler:View


Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train as much as possible for Fat Buu:

Spoiler:View


This would mean Piccolo would have possibly placed Gotenks in the ROSAT either way, which supports Goku's statement.

This also renders your second argument invalid:

Spoiler:View
[/spoiler]
Except Goku said he was no match for him before revealing Super Saiyan 3. After that he and Boo fought toe to toe and Piccolo even thought it was worth it asking if Goku was really unable to beat Boo.

On the gamble thing, you do realize on the own scan you posted Goku says he's gonna take the gamble based on the boys' power, right? Even though the boys aren't as strong as he expected them to be, he recovers his confidence after testing the water with Boo. When did he suggest they need training? He flat out told Piccolo to don't send the boys to the Rosat because they might need for future threats, He doesn't change his mind about the boys not using the Rosat, and still tells Chi-Chi Goten will win if he fuses with Gotenks.

Also, the kids didn't master fusion on Rosat, they mastered it when they fused as Super Saiyans:
Time passed...The wizard Babidi awakened Majin Boo, who began killing all life on Earth. In order to defeat this mighty foe, Goten and Trunks at last perfected Fusion. However, just as Majin Boo befriended Satan and was about to give up killing, a terrible change occurred...!!
viewtopic.php?p=969068#p969564

On Rosat they only powered up further. And why you're even bringing up Super Boo? He's way stronger than Fat Boo.

As for Piccolo telling them to train, it was right after Gotenks returned from his fight with Boo, so he wasn't sure if the fusion could turn Super Saiyan yet. Also, Piccolo never even mentioned the Rosat, nor he send them there until Super Boo was born. Don't wanna sound like a dick here (And sorry if i sound like one) but saying Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train on Rosat even before he saw SSJ Gotenks is the worst argument you pulled off by far, it's based on nothing but conjecture and it contradicts what the manga shows.
The Original Manga says nothing of Gotenks being near Goku even except post ROSAT. Gotenks's Ki as a Ssj hasn't even crossed distances between Earth and the Kaioshin Realm unlike Fat Buu, Ssj3 Goku, Super Buu and Gohan. Never has it been shown that Gotenks Pre > Ssj3 Goku, except misinterpreted nitpicked lines. Piccolo is out of the formula, as Ssj Goten or Trunks alone > him, Gohan Post Z Sword is far stronger than before.

Never ONCE has it been stated or even shown that Gotenks > Vegeta. Nothing says that, and nothing implies that. Using Piccolo's confidence over Gotenks's power is not evidence of anything, because it just shows that he quite is powerful and it's possible to enhance his strength through training. It mentions absolutely nothing about Piccolo referring to Gotenks now, and since it's vague, you can't use it at all here.

Gohan Post Z Sword training >>>> Gohan Pre Z Sword Training.

Gohan was training with The Z Sword as a Ssj2/Ssj just so that he would get used to it, but later he's shown capable of moving with it in base form:

Spoiler:View


Fat Buu's Ssj3 Power is stated by Piccolo to be beyond what they can imagine, yet he still scales Gotenks's Power (except Post ROSAT):

Spoiler:View


Fat Buu's power reached the Kaioshin Realm, Gotenks's didn't:

Spoiler:View


Proving all my points right. Gotenks is inferior to Goku by a shit ton.
If anything this solidifes even more my argument about the Daizenshuu entry being flawed. Gohan was already out of the equation by the moment Gotenks was born, he already finished his Z Sword training and was stronger than Goku, who couldn't lift the sword as easily as Gohan. "Vegeta and the others" after Vegeta it's the kids. Gotenks being weaker than the kids pretty much beats the point of the fusion.

I don't think the lack of reactions from Gotenks' Ki on the Other World means much. It could've happened off screen for all we know. And Goku does look confused by the fact that he can't sense Gotenks' Ki when Gotenks is on Rosat:
Image

Nothing implies Gotenks > Vegeta? Even Base Gotenks was treated as a much bigger deal than Vegeta, let alone Super Saiyan Gotenks who's stated several times to be stronger than Fat Boo.
That doesn't mean anything. Piccolo asked him because as I showed above, Ssj3 Goku is out of his imagination and can't properly scale it, so he had to ask Goku.

Piccolo pressed it on Goku because Goku said he "thinks" and didn't "try" despite it being a desperate case like this:

Spoiler:View
Of course it does. Piccolo saying Goku's power is beyond what he can imagine doesn't mean Goku is so strong he can't sense properly, only that Goku's power is stronger than anything Piccolo could imagine. That said, my point still stands.
The "ordinary" level is not "holding back", but it is mastered Super Saiyan, in which they're living normally as Super Saiyans. Your point absolutely contradicts what Vegeta was hinting at, since it wasn't about holding back power at all.

And What? No one has suppressed their energy before as Super Saiyan?

Trunks held back against Goku:

Spoiler:View


Goku's Super Saiyan > 100% Final Form Frieza yet he was pushed and pained by Frieza by weaker levels, then Goku powers up and heard Frieza, and that happens before Frieza's power starts to decline due to Goku:

Spoiler:View


Piccolo, before sensing Goku increase his power as Ssj3, mentions that he can't beat Fat Buu (although as I showed, he starts to doubt it). Meaning Goku held back, and since Piccolo doubted it, it also means that Goku against kid buu was far above himself when he fought Fat Buu:

Spoiler:View


So it's still builds up an assumption.
Piccolo says they're on a "Ordinary, everyday level" what clearly is about holding back power. What Vegeta says doesn't contradict Piccolo's statement at all, it only complements Piccolo's statement about the benefits of mastering the transformations.

And based on Piccolo being surprised at Goku and Gohan's ability to suppression, it's clear the examples you cited aren't about holding back power, but effort. On the original dialogue Goku says Trunks "Wasn't serious, after all", what can refer to efforts as well. Freeza never hurted Goku, he just pushed him away with a Kiai. Goku saying he could've killed Boo doesn't mean he was suppressed when he said he couldn't, just that their power are close enough to a point Goku can at lest hide his chances of winning. I mean, he also said he could beat Pure Boo, but it was because he could create a Kamehameha strong enough to obliterate him. The same applies to Fatso here.
kn83 wrote: People seriously need to stop wanking Buu saga Goku. SSJ Gotenks (Pre-ROSAT) was already stated by both Goku and Piccolo to be strong enough to easily beat Fat Buu, while Goku could only do this as a SSJ3 (with or without full power). This means Pre-ROSAT Gotenks was already at least rivaling (if no surpassing)
SSJ3 Goku at that point. After training in the ROSAT, SSJ Gotenks should easily stomp both Kid Buu and especially SSJ3 Goku, since SSJ doesn't have the same stamina problems as SSJ3.
I completely agree. Everyone and their mother imply Gotenks > Goku, while nothing implies Goku > Gotenks at all.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

kn83
Banned
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by kn83 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:06 pm

SSJ3 goku (yargrat) vs android saga 17
Dodoria vs KKx3 Goku (saiyan arc)
Guldo vs Nappa and 5 saibamen
Tien (Buu saga) vs Mecha Frieza
Krillin (late Namek arc) vs Recoome

dragonball0900
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:37 pm

kn83 wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:
3. Kid Buu wins with ease since he was equal to SSJ3 Goku, who should be stronger than SSJ Gotenks. The only thing SSJ Gotenks surpassed after the ROSAT at least is Fat Buu's and suppressed SSJ3 Goku's power.
People seriously need to stop wanking Buu saga Goku. SSJ Gotenks (Pre-ROSAT) was already stated by both Goku and Piccolo to be strong enough to easily beat Fat Buu, while Goku could only do this as a SSJ3 (with or without full power). This means Pre-ROSAT Gotenks was already at least rivaling (if no surpassing)
SSJ3 Goku at that point. After training in the ROSAT, SSJ Gotenks should easily stomp both Kid Buu and especially SSJ3 Goku, since SSJ doesn't have the same stamina problems as SSJ3.
The thing is, Goku was suppressed when he fought Fat Buu because he later says he could've defeated him easily. SSJ Gotenks can defeat Gotenks too, but that doesn't mean he surpasses SSJ3 Goku when he is in his full power. The only thing we know about Pre ROSAT Gotenks is that he should be able to surpass Fat Buu AND the SSJ3 Goku that fought him without using his full power.

Now that I think of it, I think I confused Pre with Post ROSAT Gotenks, it was Pre ROSAT the one who would lose with ease against Kid Buu. In my list I have Kid Buu and Post ROSAT Gotenks as equals, so the battle would be closer, but Gotenks is way too inexperienced and doesn't take things seriously, and Kid Buu can regenerate a lot, which makes Kid Buu having a good advantage. SSJ3 Goku would win against SSJ Gotenks though, not only because using his full power would make him stronger than Kid Buu, but there is also no confirmation that Gotenks surpassed him at all with his SSJ.

dragonball0900
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:40 pm

kn83 wrote:SSJ3 goku (yargrat) vs android saga 17
Dodoria vs KKx3 Goku (saiyan arc)
Guldo vs Nappa and 5 saibamen
Tien (Buu saga) vs Mecha Frieza
Krillin (late Namek arc) vs Recoome
1. Goku wins easily. Android 17 should be twice as strong as this Goku, putting him 8 times stronger and we know the results.

2. Goku wins again. Dodoria, while being stronger than Vegeta, is less skilled and we don't know how durable he might be against Goku's kamehameha, seeing that he doesn't have that saiyan durability.

3. Guldo should win using his techniques. Without them he is probably in trouble because being numbered.

4. Mecha Frieza wins easily. Tien is weaker or close to Krillin, who doesn't surpass Base Saiyans from the Android arc at all, who are way weaker than Frieza.

5. Krillin with ease. He is 75,000 against 2nd Form Frieza, and his power kept increasing, making him stomping Recoome probably even easier than what Goku did.
Last edited by dragonball0900 on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:40 pm

kn83 wrote:SSJ3 goku (yargrat) vs android saga 17
Dodoria vs KKx3 Goku (saiyan arc)
Guldo vs Nappa and 5 saibamen
Tien (Buu saga) vs Mecha Frieza
Krillin (late Namek arc) vs Recoome
-Goku massively stomps.
-Goku would be stronger, but his body wouldn't hold out long enough. Dadoria wins.
-Nappa and 5 saibamen should win. Guldo is probably weaker than Nappa tbh, but his special powers could give him the win. However the 5 saibamen would be too much extra to deal with.
-Mecha Frieza kills him in one shot. Tien at best can beat 3rd form Frieza.
-Recoome stomps unless Krillin gets him with a destructo disc.

User avatar
Almighty Majin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:18 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Almighty Majin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:52 pm

kn83 wrote:SSJ3 goku (yargrat) vs android saga 17
Dodoria vs KKx3 Goku (saiyan arc)
Guldo vs Nappa and 5 saibamen
Tien (Buu saga) vs Mecha Frieza
Krillin (late Namek arc) vs Recoome
I don't know if Goku could hold SSJ3 long enough at this point to beat 17 but I think he could.
KKx3 Goku can win if he makes it quick.
If an angry Saiyan saga Krillin was able to destroy all the Saibamen, Guldo can do the same easily and could beat Nappa with his special techniques.
Mecha Freeza wins unless Tien Shin Kikoho's his ass to oblivion.
Krillin wins easily.

User avatar
jeffbr92
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:49 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:46 pm

Mastered UI Goku vs. Whis


ekrolo2 wrote:Goku, who gets his potential unlocked by Old Kai giving him Ultimate, and can upgrade himself to KKX20 vs SS2 Kefla.
Kefla still wins IMO
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

User avatar
DB▪Magnum-Expert
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:20 am

I noticed you say this:
dragon boss z wrote:It was never proven
You're just ignoring everything I've given you, which factually shows statements, feats and Implifications. Saying it isn't proven while ignoring everything without even trying to support yourself is not going to even remotely change the fact that Base Goku > SsjG Goku. Just because you don't want to believe It, doesn't mean you judge it based on your unsupported opinion. You're trying too hard not to believe Base > SsjG to the point where you speculated almost most scenarios in the show.
dragon boss z wrote:When did he say this?
Again, read my post. Goku got up thinking that he would still want to beat Beerus. SsjG Goku also thought he could win against Goku as implied by him trying to win and confidence at first, since Goku knows that If he loses earth is gone, but if he wins Beerus won't destroy earth.
dragon boss z wrote:All you are doing is abusing statements that are literally just made up by the episode writter that weak. That stuff isn't coming from Toriyama. If you want to take all statements 100% literally you have to admit current final form Frieza's supernova is only planet level and everyone weaker than that move isn't planet level.
Here you go Again, trying to bash everything. Anime is not the same as Manga. Manga scaling differs completely from Anime scaling, and here I'm arguing about the anime which you clearly know. All statements are to be taken based on their context. You don't have the obligation to nitpick what's to be taken literally and what's Not to be so. Frieza's planet level attack is a contradiction to the feats and scaling, while Base Goku > SsjG is never contradicted except by the logic of "He can't be stronger than SsjG because it's crazy! I have no proof but come on!"
dragon boss z wrote:I do have evidence.
1. Goku would of went ssj2 or ssj3 on Beerus and made himself stronger if he could of. Since he didn't that means he couldn't at the time
This is not an evidence. Goku not going Ssj2 or Ssj3 is just a reconfirmation of what has already been mentioned by Akira that Ssj2 and Ssj3 are just power ups which aren't dependable (Although that was changed later but it still applies in BoG), and the fact that Goku in the first place didn't realise he became Ssj. Goku himself thought he never went back to Ssj.

What you showed doesn't suggest his Ssj2 and Ssj3 form to be equal to his Ssj form.
dragon boss z wrote:2. In an interview Toriyama said Goku wouldn't go SSG again because he absorbed the power, but now he is going SSG again so that means he must not of absorbed all of the power
I guess.... Namek Saga Ssj Goku > Current Base Goku because he went Ssj? Goku not going SsjG is a contradiction, but that's because it was supposed to be a time-limit form. Goku absorbed all of its power AND the transformation itself. What you showed only proves that Goku can go SsjG.
dragon boss z wrote:3. In the BoG movie Goku had to go SSG one last time to stop Beerus' attack, meaning SSG was the strongest power he had.
SsjG As a transformation. Then Again, BoG movie implies that if you want SsjG, then it's a given that the SsjG power will be absorbed by the Saiyan, but you won't necessarily lose that form. SsjG being the strongest transformation aside from SsjB is true, but it means nothing when it comes to power, as SsjG is a multiplier. SsjG is its multiplier × Base Form.
dragon boss z wrote:4. Goku and Vegeta went ssj on Frost, the trio de danger, and a bunch of other fodder. If you really think any of those fodder are above SSG level, I really don't know what to say.
You don't have to say anything because you have no evidence to support yourself other than "It can't be!!!". Whis quite clearly states that the world beyond (which is The new characters) is something Goku can't ever grasp unless he trains his base to surpass anything previously and enter far further into the God Realm.
dragon boss z wrote:During the fight it was, but afterwards it looked like his power went back down as Krillin was able to survive a full power base punch to his face, and Vegeta caught up with him after 4 months
Ultimate Gohan rivaled SsjB Goku in a couple of hours, And Frieza caught up to Goku in 4 months, so your argument is invalid considering it's a fault made by Toei. Krillin surviving his hit means nothing since Goku wouldn't kill him, and Base Goku survived Merged Zamasu's attack and Jiren's attack which is "stronger than any energy he encountered before".
dragon boss z wrote:Training for 4 months isn't nearly enough time for their base to go from below Frieza level to above SSG
Base Vegeta Buu Saga > Frieza. That's for another debate though. Piccolo in couple of hours went from being High tier Buu Saga level into Saonel and Pirina level who comvated ultimate Gohan
dragon boss z wrote:Even Frieza, who never trained a day in his life and is a prodigy only grew about that much. The saiyans have been training for their whole lives, they can't make magic gains like that anymore.
Like argued above, training logic = broken. And Frieza got as strong as SsjB Goku ToP by image training in 2 years. That speaks for itself. Frieza also had awakened his potential, that's why his power is that far.
dragon boss z wrote:Like I said, SSG had to of been Goku's max power because if not that means he could of multiplied ssj3 to try and Beerus, but even with his world on the line he didn't.


Goku back then lost the SsjG Form and didn't even realize he revered back. That alone brings this sentence down.
dragon boss z wrote:And in the movie version SSG Goku was confirmed to be 60% of Beerus, so if Goku truly absorbed all of the power into his ssj form, then if he would of went ssj2 or ssj3 he would of been stronger than Beerus. But Goku clearly couldn't of done that or he would of.
The God scale has long been deserted. In DBS it was retconned and no percentage was ever mentioned. Current Beerus > SsjB Vegito Future Trunks arc, yet by your logic he's 60% SsjG Goku BoG.
dragon boss z wrote:Even if I completely accept Goku absorbing SSG into his ssj form, that only means his ssj form is SSG level. His base form would still be weaker.
Yet again you ignore the rest of the proofs which show that Base Goku surpassed his Ssj counterpart directly after BoG and on Episode 14. You're kind of messing the whole thing
dragon boss z wrote:I know Beerus was heavily holding back, but how would Goku know by how much?
Characters can tell whether an opponent is heavily holding back against them. Whis even implies that Goku's fight was just a warm up for Beerus. Goku also told Beerus he's no match for him, meaning he knows Beerus's level.
dragon boss z wrote:And tell me how Goku would know Beerus is hundreds of times stronger than him? Beerus never told him that and actually told Goku he was going all out. Obviously we as the audience knows, but Goku shouldn't know.
Goku knew he could beat Fat Buu and Final Form Frieza and so on. He also knew Cell is far beyond him, and so on. Goku figured out that when Beerus fought Goku at the very end. They realized their inferiority. There's no reason for why they wouldn't know.
dragon boss z wrote:Yes, it was too long. You should try and make your points more concise. But I did read the part you are talking about and Beerus never said "base form" just because they were in their base when he said it means nothing. He was clearly talking about their full power.
I never said he said that. The reference was about how their bases originally grew far beyond SsjG Goku BoG and Beerus then states that they got stronger based on that. Vegeta back then had no SsjG and Goku lost his SsjG power, until they were thrown into the dimension which Whis creates through his Staff.
dragon boss z wrote:This is the reason we can't see eye to eye. Roshi clearly isn't mean to be that strong. You are one of the few people who would say Roshi is probably beyond anything in Z. Roshi can't just secretly train and become stronger than ssj3 Goku or ssj Vegito.
I could be the only person out there, but I wouldn't care (although there are many who agree). Roshi is shown to be that strong and he was made that way. You don't suggest whether Roshi can or can't get that strong. Android 17 trained secretly in an island and surpassed Golden Frieza easily.
dragon boss z wrote:Piccolo almost beat Frost, and Frost was stated to be no match for final form Frieza by Champa
Piccolo also fought with Pirina and Saonel who combated ultimate Gohan, and has become God Tier. Piccolo, Frost and Frieza got far stronger than their previous counterparts. You're assuming they didn't get stronger despite the fact they did which I showed in my post but you didn't read due to its length
dragon boss z wrote:Buu only trained for a few hours. At best he would a couple times stronger than before.
Using your logic golden Frieza is Super Perfect Cell level at best
dragon boss z wrote:Goku and Vegeta went ssj against the trio and then they even went SSB to finish them off. 2 of them are weaker than Fat Buu, and one of them is stronger. So Goku and Vegeta went SSB against 3 opponents, two of which are weaker than Fat Buu, lol.
Obviously means they're holding back. Unless you want to imply that Basil > Bergamo? Even though Base Goku knocked Bergamo many times. Lavender > Buu. Goku was spamming SsjB throughout all the Tournament, so Goku going SsjB is invalid and was for hype and no other reason
dragon boss z wrote:I don't think I sad the U6 saiyans were Buu saga tier. Imo they are above that, but definitely not god tier. Also Kefla was so strong because of Kale's hidden potential.
Kefla was strong because of both Caulifla's and Kale's powers. Base Kale and Base Caulifla got that got them to their levels, and trying to deny it is futile, since it can't be more obvious that it already is. Potara isn't Potential breaker.
dragon boss z wrote:We have to roll with feats. You are talking statements out of context and trying pretty much wanking every character to as strong as they could possibly be.
I'm not taking statements out of context. Out of all the 20+ proofs in the show, you're just denying without evidence of anything because you don't want to believe it. Look mate, if all you're doing is speculating, then that's no argument. No matter how much you try to deny It, if you only deny the evidence in front if you, then it's useless. You're not providing any reliability in the first place. I'm not wanking anybody. This is EXACTLY this they were shown, you're just trying to invent another scale just so that it supports your speculative opinion which contradicts everything in the show, to the point you tried to use retconned scales, speculations, deny all the anime and then say I haven't proveoroven anything despite it being obvious the burden of proof is on you.
dragon boss z wrote:If Goku's base is really SSG tier or higher, he just holds back on everyone, period. It's also possible they decided to retcon his base being SSG level and bring back the SSG form like the manga did.
See what you're doing? That's no argument. You're just trying to stick to your opinion as much as possible to the point you're speculating. There's no problem with having everybody beyond SsjG, as this is what's supposed to be logical based on Whis' s statements and the she's Implification
dragon boss z wrote:Characters like Frost clearly aren't supposed to be SSG tier and all the fodder in Super aren't magically above everyone from Z
You don't judge who's fodder and who's not because you don't want to believe they are that strong. All you're doing is claiming your opinion to be correct while ignoring all the show, nice
dragon boss z wrote:Fat Buu beat a powered up Basil, Gohan and Goku said Krillin couldn't even beat base Basil, Krillin pushed Goku to go ssj. That's enough proof that Goku goes ssj against people who are even weaker than fat Buu.
Fat Buu beating Basil isn't proving your point in the slightest. And now you're ignoring what the Episode has showed us, since Gohan thought Krillin cannot enter the Tournament, but Goku told him you're wrong, because he was referencing episode 75 and 76 when Krillin improved. Goku was holding back, as even Android 18 who's aware of Krillin's power didn't want Krillin to fight Goku at all, which means Goku had to hold back.

Look mate, you can Agree to Disagree and stick to your opinion, but claiming that this case isn't proven is absolutely wrong and frankly denial. It honestly annoyed me how you're speculating and ignoring just so that you stick to your opinion and claim I'm wrong. This isn't even a debate
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:

User avatar
DB▪Magnum-Expert
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:22 am

dragon boss z wrote:
kn83 wrote: 1. Base Goku and Vegeta absorbing and surpassing SSJG in their base has been literally stated multiple times in both the anime and manga. There is nothing to debate at this point, with base Copy-Vegeta one-shotting SSJ3 Gotenks, then base Goku matching him and other feats.
It was said Goku's body addapted tot he experience, and it was said he didn't feel differernt when he was a ssj. It was never said they had the power of SSG while in base.
And it never even happened in the manga, you completely made that up. Goku fought as a SSG the entire fight and never lost the power and it was never stated he absorbed it into his base. You completely made that up.
It was stated that Goku absorbed all the power and made it his own, and stated multiple times he started to get stronger than be already was with other evidences and proof that Base Goku > SsjG Goku. He Even matched Beerus made him enjoy himself far more than he did before. He didn't make that up, frankpy you're the one who made the experience thing up. We're not arguing about The Manga, We're arguing about the ANIME
dragon boss z wrote:That is your head canon. Buu has no reason to be any stronger than before. Dragon ball z characters don't just magically get stronger because it's the next arc. Buu is Buu tier unless stated other wise. Only fit Buu is stated to have gotten stronger.
Fit Buu was capable of combating against Base Goku who got serious against Him. You're not the one who judges power increases considering the fact that Characters like Frieza and Gohan have become SsjB Tier in a couple of hours.
dragon boss z wrote:In the manga Goku and Vegeta didn't absorb god ki into their base as mentioned above, and as for the anime it turned out that Vegeta was holding back when he no sold Cabba's punch to his face and when Frieza completely clowned Cabba.
Stop comparing Manga with anime as each have their own respective scales. Vegeta directly states that they're equals and both fought equally:

[spoiler]Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]

Vegeta blocking Ssj Cabba is an example of Mastered Super Saiyan that's all. This is partly shown In the Tournament of Power, in which Base Vegeta fought katopesla at one form, but when katopesla got 300x before, Vegeta overpowered him as Ssj.

Goku also implies that mastering a form would make you stronger, shown by how Caulifla mastered Ssj2 and got stronger to the point she pushed Goku as a Ssj and Ssj2
dragon boss z wrote:Also it is pretty clear they had Buu get disqualified because he would sweep most of U6. If Buu would of lost to them they would of just had him fight, but they had to get rid of him because he was too OP. Same reason he wasn't there for RoF. Buu is too strong and would mess up the plot. Only Hit would of beaten Buu.
No, Gohan as a Ssj could combat with Buu in RoF arc and First form Frieza could erase Buu. According to Vegeta, Buu is fodder and isn't worthy to come to the Tournament:

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]

Only his anger and abilities are worth noting, anything else is useless.
dragon boss z wrote:Yes, I know that. Imo Frost is perfect Cell to Super Buu tier. I meant he wasn't RoF/ToP final form Frieza tier.
He isn't ToP final form Frieza Tier, but he is above that if it's from RoF.
dragon boss z wrote:Not sure what you are saying here. Imo a majority of the ToP fighters are below Buu tier.
In your opinion, which contradicts everything, lmao
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5900
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:46 am

Super Saiyan Anger Future Trunks (E63) vs Super Saiyan Blue Enraged Goku (E61).

Who wins? Goku's anger boost is permanent.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:04 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: You're just ignoring everything I've given you, which factually shows statements, feats and Implifications. Saying it isn't proven while ignoring everything without even trying to support yourself is not going to even remotely change the fact that Base Goku > SsjG Goku. Just because you don't want to believe It, doesn't mean you judge it based on your unsupported opinion. You're trying too hard not to believe Base > SsjG to the point where you speculated almost most scenarios in the show.
No you just think what you are showing are facts. If we just go off of statements alone, all we know is ssj Goku surpassed his SSG state. When Goku destroys the final blast in base form that was just a moment of him reaching deep down to stop the blast, it was never stated "base Goku surpassed SSG".
Again, read my post. Goku got up thinking that he would still want to beat Beerus. SsjG Goku also thought he could win against Goku as implied by him trying to win and confidence at first, since Goku knows that If he loses earth is gone, but if he wins Beerus won't destroy earth.
Of course he would try to win, and if they transformed to Vegito he would of tried to win as well. And I do agree SSG is above Vegito, I just don't think it's by too much.
Here you go Again, trying to bash everything. Anime is not the same as Manga. Manga scaling differs completely from Anime scaling, and here I'm arguing about the anime which you clearly know. All statements are to be taken based on their context. You don't have the obligation to nitpick what's to be taken literally and what's Not to be so. Frieza's planet level attack is a contradiction to the feats and scaling, while Base Goku > SsjG is never contradicted except by the logic of "He can't be stronger than SsjG because it's crazy! I have no proof but come on!"
No, I showed you plenty more logic than that. Base Goku was hurt by a bullet because he got "rusty", Krillin made him go ssj, Frost made him go ssj, Buu beat him in their sparring match, he can still go SSG, Krillin survived his punch to the face, he had trouble with the trio de danger, ect. There are plenty of examples of him being below SSG in base and I mentioned them before, you just brush it off as everyone is SSG level... That clearly isn't the intention Toriyama had in mind.
dragon boss z wrote:2. In an interview Toriyama said Goku wouldn't go SSG again because he absorbed the power, but now he is going SSG again so that means he must not of absorbed all of the power
I guess.... Namek Saga Ssj Goku > Current Base Goku because he went Ssj? Goku not going SsjG is a contradiction, but that's because it was supposed to be a time-limit form. Goku absorbed all of its power AND the transformation itself. What you showed only proves that Goku can go SsjG.
That would only be the case if Vegeta can go SSG too, but that is never shown. If Goku is the only one who can go SSG that means he is using power from the ritual to go SSG.
It is shown in the manga that Vegeta can go SSG, but SSG never had a time limit in the manga.
You don't have to say anything because you have no evidence to support yourself other than "It can't be!!!". Whis quite clearly states that the world beyond (which is The new characters) is something Goku can't ever grasp unless he trains his base to surpass anything previously and enter far further into the God Realm.
Whis was referring to gods, not every random fodder from other universes.
Base Vegeta Buu Saga > Frieza. That's for another debate though.
Except that there is a statement that flat out says base Goku can't beat Frieza, so that proves that you ignore some statements to. And don't say "because it is contradicted" because base Goku being above SSG is contradcited as well in some cases. I agree in his fight with Beerus wearing the Monaka costume he did seem SSG level, but then at other times he doesn't. This is the problem of different writers working on different episodes.
Piccolo in couple of hours went from being High tier Buu Saga level into Saonel and Pirina level who comvated ultimate Gohan
Saonel and Pirina only became ultimate Gohan level after powering up, and when they did that Piccolo became fodder to them. Only his special beam canon could really injure them.
And Frieza got as strong as SsjB Goku ToP by image training in 2 years. That speaks for itself. Frieza also had awakened his potential, that's why his power is that far.
You act like that's impressive. Golden Frieza was already above SSB Goku in the RoF arc, so Frieza probably didn't have to get that much stronger to catch back up. He probably got a couple times stronger at most.
Goku back then lost the SsjG Form and didn't even realize he revered back. That alone brings this sentence down.
Yes I know, which is why I do think it is possible for his ssj form to be SSG level. But he never said that while in base.
The God scale has long been deserted. In DBS it was retconned and no percentage was ever mentioned. Current Beerus > SsjB Vegito Future Trunks arc, yet by your logic he's 60% SsjG Goku BoG.
I know, you missed the point. The point was that if Goku went ssj3 he would of been stronger than Beerus in the movie version. However he didn't do that. The only logical explanation is that he couldn't. So even though in the Super version where Beerus was way more than 8x stronger than him, if Goku couldn't even get from 60% of Beerus to over 100% of Beerus in the movie version, it is possible he couldn't power up the same way in the anime version.
Yet again you ignore the rest of the proofs which show that Base Goku surpassed his Ssj counterpart directly after BoG and on Episode 14. You're kind of messing the whole thing
Stopping that attack in base was just a cinematic choice that was supposed to be epic. It wasn't the writers intent to show "hey look base Goku is stronger than ssj Goku now".
Goku knew he could beat Fat Buu and Final Form Frieza and so on. He also knew Cell is far beyond him, and so on. Goku figured out that when Beerus fought Goku at the very end. They realized their inferiority. There's no reason for why they wouldn't know.
That's because Goku felt Buu's max power, Frieza told Goku exactly how much power he was using, and Goku went all out against a suppressed Cell who had regeneration, so of course he knew how he stood against them. And I know Goku know's he couldn't beat Whis after Beerus told him he wasn't on that level, but if Goku really got hundreds of times stronger since his fight with Beerus he would want to at least try and fight again.
I could be the only person out there, but I wouldn't care (although there are many who agree). Roshi is shown to be that strong and he was made that way. You don't suggest whether Roshi can or can't get that strong.
The problem is Roshi getting that strong that quick is story breaking. Roshi was confirmed to be just namek tier in the RoF arc, so that means in just a couple years of training he surpassed all of Z? That means if they put Roshi in the hyperbolic time chamber he could of defeated Buu... It means if he decided to train earlier he could of solod every DBZ villain...
Android 17 trained secretly in an island and surpassed Golden Frieza easily.
I don't think 17 is stronger than Golden Frieza, and according to a DBS writer and one of the guide books he isn't.
Using your logic golden Frieza is Super Perfect Cell level at best
Ummm no. How did you come to this conclusion? Imo super perfect Cell is only about 10x stronger than 100% Frieza. Frieza could of surpassed that after a few weeks of training.
Obviously means they're holding back. Unless you want to imply that Basil > Bergamo? Even though Base Goku knocked Bergamo many times.
What? Goku and Vegeta went ssj on all 3 of them, not just Basil. But all 3 are around Buu tier as even Basil on steroids is weaker than Buu.
Lavender > Buu.
No, Lavender is stronger than Basil, but not roid Basil, and Buu is stronger than roid Basil
Goku was spamming SsjB throughout all the Tournament, so Goku going SsjB is invalid and was for hype and no other reason
This is true and I agree with it. My point is that you can't judge everyone's strength off of Goku and Vegeta because they power up for no reason half the time.
Kefla was strong because of both Caulifla's and Kale's powers. Base Kale and Base Caulifla got that got them to their levels, and trying to deny it is futile, since it can't be more obvious that it already is. Potara isn't Potential breaker.
Both base Kale and Caulifla are weaker than base Goku and Vegeta, that is made clear.
I'm not taking statements out of context. Out of all the 20+ proofs in the show, you're just denying without evidence of anything because you don't want to believe it. Look mate, if all you're doing is speculating, then that's no argument. No matter how much you try to deny It, if you only deny the evidence in front if you, then it's useless. You're not providing any reliability in the first place. I'm not wanking anybody. This is EXACTLY this they were shown, you're just trying to invent another scale just so that it supports your speculative opinion which contradicts everything in the show, to the point you tried to use retconned scales, speculations, deny all the anime and then say I haven't proveoroven anything despite it being obvious the burden of proof is on you.
No, it's not what's shown. I actually kind of believe that originally Goku was supposed to have absorbed all of the SSG power but Toriyama changed his mind because it made them too strong. That is probably the reason Toyotaro decided to have Goku just keep the SSG form instead of absorbing it.
And there is also the fact that King Kai was afraid that Goku had the power of a god without the ritual, and I know you brought this up and said that he didn't mean power, but he literally said "power" and why else would he be afraid? He was clearly afraid of the universe destroying power of a god.
See what you're doing? That's no argument. You're just trying to stick to your opinion as much as possible to the point you're speculating. There's no problem with having everybody beyond SsjG, as this is what's supposed to be logical based on Whis' s statements and the she's Implification
I already told you the argument. Things like Roshi and Krillin pushing base Goku is impossible if he is way above SSG level unless he is holding back. Those characters clearly aren't supposed to be god tier. If you told Toriyama you think Roshi is above ssj3 Goku from the buu saga he would think you are crazy. I know what you are saying could make sense if you just take every feat and statement trying to make them as strong as possible, but that is not the author's intent. Those characters were never meant to be god level. Even people like Seththeprogrammer who high balls like crazy only thinks Krillin is namek to androids saga ssj tier.
You don't judge who's fodder and who's not because you don't want to believe they are that strong.
I'm not judging who is fodder. Do you even know the definition of fodder? All the characters who are knocked off without dialog, are really weak compared to other characters, and only have a couple minutes of screen time are fodder.
All you're doing is claiming your opinion to be correct while ignoring all the show, nice
I'm not ignoring the show, and the writers would most likely agree with me so your statement above seems kind of ironic.
Fat Buu beating Basil isn't proving your point in the slightest.
Why not? Basil was one of the strongest in universe 9. Buu beat up a powered up version of Basil. That means besides Bergamo Buu is stronger than every person on universe 9's team.
And just so you know feats hold more weight that implied statements.
And now you're ignoring what the Episode has showed us, since Gohan thought Krillin cannot enter the Tournament, but Goku told him you're wrong, because he was referencing episode 75 and 76 when Krillin improved. Goku was holding back, as even Android 18 who's aware of Krillin's power didn't want Krillin to fight Goku at all, which means Goku had to hold back.
Goku said he would be usefull because of his skill, not strength.
Look mate, you can Agree to Disagree and stick to your opinion, but claiming that this case isn't proven is absolutely wrong and frankly denial. It honestly annoyed me how you're speculating and ignoring just so that you stick to your opinion and claim I'm wrong. This isn't even a debate
No, just what you think are facts are not facts. And stop acting like you are the superior debater. Make a comic vine account and lets do a CaV of SSG Goku (BoG arc) vs current base Goku. Other members vote on who they think debated better and not who they think would actually win. I bet you I would be the winner so if you want to keep up your "I'm the superior debater" attitude then take up my challenge. If not stop claiming your argument blows min out of the water.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:21 pm

kn83 wrote:SSJ3 goku (yargrat) vs android saga 17
Dodoria vs KKx3 Goku (saiyan arc)
Guldo vs Nappa and 5 saibamen
Tien (Buu saga) vs Mecha Frieza
Krillin (late Namek arc) vs Recoome
1. Goku stomps. The gap between SSJ Goku and 17 should be 3x at best going by Future 17's implications, so SSJ3 would be overkill. I think SSJ3 Goku would be on pair with Half-Power SSJ Goku from the Cell Games.

2. Goku is a good bit stronger, but lacks the stamina to finish Dodoria. His only way to win is via an amplified Kamehameha.

3. It's necessary someone quick, smart thinking to overcome Gurdo's time stop, which Nappa and the Saibamens lack. Gurdo even may be able to beat Nappa hand to hand.

4. Even by FnF, Kuririn (Who is Tenshinhan's superior) thinks Freeza stills a huge deal, so Tenshinhan gets stomped here unless he fires a Shin Kikoho.

5. When? By the Freeza fight? He stomps. Vegeta considered him useful vs Freeza and called power as a factor, so Kuririn should be able to beat even Ginyu pretty easily.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:26 pm

kn83 wrote:SSJ3 goku (yargrat) vs android saga 17
Dodoria vs KKx3 Goku (saiyan arc)
Guldo vs Nappa and 5 saibamen
Tien (Buu saga) vs Mecha Frieza
Krillin (late Namek arc) vs Recoome
Goku. That multiplier is too large.
Dodoria. Vegeta didn't surpass him till after the zenkai he got from surviving the blast.... When he was weaker.
Guldo . he's probably stronger than people give him credit for, he never got speedblitzed before using his powers when going up against planets that require the ginyu force. We know he's weaker than Kuririns 10k probably. But he can certainly kill Nappa and the saibas with time stop and tk, maybe even with regular power...
Tenshinhan is weaker than base bog Goku who is weaker than namek 100% Freeza. But he's easily capable of killing him with a kikoho or kaioken if he knows it.
Kuririn ends up at like 75k and all the mid tier ginyus are about 42k. Kuririn slaughters.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Dragon Ball Gus
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:51 pm
Location: Planet Sadla

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:27 pm

Man, I love asking these hypotheticals. So today, I'm asking about a hypothetical potara fusion between Goku and Freeza. Freeku. How strong would he be, and who'd be the strongest character he'd defeat?
Caulifla best girl! :)

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:45 pm

TobyS wrote: Kuririn ends up at like 75k and all the mid tier ginyus are about 42k. Kuririn slaughters.
That number isn't actually canon or in the daizenshuu so I would take it with a grain of salt.
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Man, I love asking these hypotheticals. So today, I'm asking about a hypothetical potara fusion between Goku and Freeza. Freeku. How strong would he be, and who'd be the strongest character he'd defeat?
In base form SSB level. If they went Golden god form they could beat Jiren and probably any GoD. If they went ultra instinct they could possibly be angel level.

User avatar
Berserker1921
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:46 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:14 am

New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)

kn83
Banned
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by kn83 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:35 pm

Berserker1921 wrote:New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)
1. Vegito Blue wins. He was implied to be Beerus level in the manga while LB Vegeta is only equal to SSB KKx20

2. Kefla wins. At LSSJ1 she'll be too strong for Hit's time hax to work.

3. Merged Zamasu wins. God Toppo lost to a SSB KKx20 level fighter, which is definitely weaker than Merged Zamasu.

4. Goku godstomps. BoG SSJG Goku solos all of GT easily.

5. Whis trained Goku wins due to getting superior training.

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:38 pm

Berserker1921 wrote:New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)
1. Vegito stomps
2. Kefla easily
3. Destruction Toppo according to Toriyama, Zamasu according to anime.
4. Gogeta SSJ4 wins in fraction of second. You can't be serious with this question...
5. GT Goku. DBS SSJ Goku was still struggling with Ultimate Gohan, but base GT Goku could beat SSJ GT Gohan who was stronger than DBS Ultimate Gohan.
So in base power levels, GT Goku is far above DBS Goku.
DBS Goku might be better trained, but in raw power he would be fodder to GT Goku.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

Post Reply