The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

[dragon boss z]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Goku should win pretty easily imo, I don't think 18 is much stronger than before.

[DestructoDisc]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

18

[Ssjcell]

Well on the cell juniors vs super Buu thing cell juniors would get rolf stomped I think them fused vs SPC is a better match up

[Ssjcell]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

I agree that 18 would win

[Berserker1921]

Goku vs anime heroes

1. Kid Goku (Jackie chun fight) vs Luffy 4th gear?
2. Kid Goku (piccolo sr) vs kenshiro?
3. Teen Goku vs ichigo (max)?
4. Goku (saiyan saga, no kaioken, allowed) vs Naruto (buroto
5. Goku (namek) vs Yuske (full power)?
6. Ssj2 Goku vs Saitama?
7. God Goku vs Vampire hunter D?
8. ssjblue Goku vs God cloth Seiya?

[ricky84]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

18 one-shots casually

[ricky84]

Goku vs anime heroes

1. Kid Goku (Jackie chun fight) vs Luffy 4th gear?
2. Kid Goku (piccolo sr) vs kenshiro?
3. Teen Goku vs ichigo (max)?
4. Goku (saiyan saga, no kaioken, allowed) vs Naruto (buroto
5. Goku (namek) vs Yuske (full power)?
6. Ssj2 Goku vs Saitama?
7. God Goku vs Vampire hunter D?
8. ssjblue Goku vs God cloth Seiya?

1. Luffy wins. 4th gear Luffy could make it in the 23th tenkaiichi
2. Kenshiro wins. He is Saibamen level
3. Ichigo wins. He is Saiyan Saga Vegeta level (no Oozaru) at his peak
4. Naruto wins. Saiyan saga Goku would need at least KKx2 to beat Hokage Naruto
5. I consider EoS Yusuke to be equal to Base Goku when he fought Freeza on Namek
6. SSJ2 Goku stomps. Saitama is at best Android 16 level with wank
7. D wins, too much hax. Goku would need at least Champa arc SSB levels of power to safely kill him
8. God cloth Seiya at his best is a little stronger than the 1st Omen but much weaker than the 2nd one.

[RandomGuy96]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Goku swats her like a bug. Outside of inconsistent Toei-specific scenes, no one in Super actually seems drastically stronger than in the Buu arc outside of new forms, Freeza, or 17.

Goku also contemplated fusing with Mr. Satan. I wouldn't put mic stalk in that.

That was the Potara fusion. Anyone can fuse with that. To do the dance fusion however, you need to have someone close to your power:

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

The difference between Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta in the early Buu arc is noticeable but relatively minor, hence why any combination of them were fusion candidates.

I agree with this, but the daizenshuu and the anime are both official sources. The only real 100% canon source is the orignal manga by Toriyama himself. The daizenshuu and anime are both supplementary material.

The Daizenshuu guidebooks are usually manga-specific while the anime, of course, only has relevance to the anime's continuity.

Goku actually brought up brining Goten and Trunks, but Vegeta shot it down. So Goku doesn't seem to have a problem bringing them in and he chose Piccolo over them. Goku was also the one who tried to let the fate of the world rest in their hands against Buu, so it would be out of character for him to think it's not ok for them to fight in a tournament.

You quoted this but didn't respond, so I'll re quote i case you want to get to this.

Yeah, sorry about that. Re-reading the manga, Goku never actually mentions a reason why he picks who he does, except for Buu. He actually suggests Piccolo second over even Gohan; when Vegeta says that Gohan would be a better choice, Goku responds that he doesn't want Gohan because Gohan isn't training anymore and became a bookworm. There's not the anime-only conversation about how the boys can't use fusion either. This implies to me that he wouldn't bother asking Goten and Trunks because he didn't think they'd be interested, which is backed up by the EOZ where it's stated that they haven't been training.

I can see it being interpreted multiple ways. The anime and old funk dub seemed to interpret it the way I did, but I do agree that doesn't make it right. I also think that Goten and Trunks were originally hyped up to be strong, but it seems now that was kind of almost retconned and now they are pretty much useless.

Maybe. But I think that's mostly anime-only stuff. In the Super manga, and probably Toriyama's original draft (the only reason I use the manga is because it seems to add less stuff than Toei's version) they just outright don't show up much. That fight with the Cell Juniors is, I think, the first time they actually fought anything since one-shotting Abo and Kado.

Piccolo forgetting about a place he spent a year of his life doing harsh training seems kind of strange, lol.

Well, it happened. Piccolo's not very bright.

It could have been considered stronger due to the longer time limit but I see your point.
In yo son Goku and his friends return Ssj Goku stopped a guy the kids had to go Gotenks against, which should be another indication they aren't near Goku/Vegeta level.

They didn't take any real damage when he beat on them in their base forms, and Goku and Vegeta were not remotely worried for them. I think they could've beaten him easily with just Super Saiyan, but chose to use Gotenks to show off. That was, after all, the entire point of the fight.

And can you really see Goten even standing a chance against Dabura like Gohan did?

Well no, but I think that Dabra is SS2-tier anyway (something also stated in the guidebooks, as well as the anime if you care about that).

If I were to high ball Goten and Trunks I would probably put them at semi perfect Cell tier, as that's enough to easily beat 18 and together be stronger than Piccolo, I don't see a reason to put them higher than that.

Their spars with Gohan and Vegeta don't work if they're that weak, even ignoring guidebooks stating that they're close to Gohan. I also don't think Piccolo is that weak, he could at least stand against a Cell Junior.

[ricky84]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Goku swats her like a bug. Outside of inconsistent Toei-specific scenes, no one in Super actually seems drastically stronger outside of new forms, Freeza, or 17.

Which is clearly false. For example both KKx20 Goku and SSB Vegeta from ep.122 onward were much stronger than the KKx20 Goku from the hour special and had surpassed the 1st Omen in power in ep.123. And this was explicitly acknowledged in dialogue from the cast (especially Jiren himself) and the narrator as them getting stronger as the ToP went on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TC3xq6AnjM

[RandomGuy96]

Which is clearly false. For example both KKx20 Goku and SSB Vegeta from ep.122 onward were much stronger than the KKx20 Goku from the hour special and had surpassed the 1st Omen in power in ep.123. And this was explicitly acknowledged in dialogue from the cast (especially Jiren himself) and the narrator as them getting stronger as the ToP went on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TC3xq6AnjM

Outside of inconsistent Toei-specific scenes,

[ricky84]

Which is clearly false. For example both KKx20 Goku and SSB Vegeta from ep.122 onward were much stronger than the KKx20 Goku from the hour special and had surpassed the 1st Omen in power in ep.123. And this was explicitly acknowledged in dialogue from the cast (especially Jiren himself) and the narrator as them getting stronger as the ToP went on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TC3xq6AnjM

Outside of inconsistent Toei-specific scenes,

Where is the inconsistency? Just because you don't like something don't mean its an inconsistency, especially when said "inconsistency" was accounted for in the show itself.

[RandomGuy96]

Where is the inconsistency? Just because you don't like something don't mean its an inconsistency, especially when said "inconsistency" was accounted for in the show itself.

I've ranted a lot about Super's inconsistencies and don't really feel like going back over the same points on a thread ill-suited for it. Let's just say I don't care about Toei's productions and call it a day.

[dragon boss z]

That was the Potara fusion. Anyone can fuse with that. To do the dance fusion however, you need to have someone close to your power:
The difference between Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta in the early Buu arc is noticeable but relatively minor, hence why any combination of them were fusion candidates.

There powers being close is relative. Ssj Goku and Vegeta would easily beat ssj Gohan, but Gohan could still be considered relative to him. Just like how cell games Goku was way above Vegeta, but I think Vegeta would still be close enough to fuse with him. Goku would just need to drop his power to match them.

The Daizenshuu guidebooks are usually manga-specific while the anime, of course, only has relevance to the anime's continuity.

The daizenshuu does have some things about the anime and movies I believe, and even if it was manga only, guide books are always secondary canon to the actual manga, unless it was a direct quote from the author.

Yeah, sorry about that. Re-reading the manga, Goku never actually mentions a reason why he picks who he does, except for Buu. He actually suggests Piccolo second over even Gohan; when Vegeta says that Gohan would be a better choice, Goku responds that he doesn't want Gohan because Gohan isn't training anymore and became a bookworm. There's not the anime-only conversation about how the boys can't use fusion either. This implies to me that he wouldn't bother asking Goten and Trunks because he didn't think they'd be interested, which is backed up by the EOZ where it's stated that they haven't been training.

I highly doubt the kids who snuck in to a tournament as mighty mask wouldn't' want to join this one. Their teenager versions (more Goten's than Trunks if I remember correctly) didn't seem that interested in fighting, but that was their teen versions and these versions are designed and act like their kid versions.

Maybe. But I think that's mostly anime-only stuff. In the Super manga, and probably Toriyama's original draft (the only reason I use the manga is because it seems to add less stuff than Toei's version) they just outright don't show up much. That fight with the Cell Juniors is, I think, the first time they actually fought anything since one-shotting Abo and Kado.

I agree the manga is most likely closer to Toriyama's vision and for the most part far more consistent, I just don't think their is enough evidence to prove how strong they are at this point. From what I've seen they could be anywhere from final form Frieza tier to cell jr tier, and am usually conservative when it comes to power rankings. The biggest problem with Goten and Trunks is they've never actually beaten or dominated a fight against a strong opponent.

Well, it happened. Piccolo's not very bright.

Sadly that seems to be the case. He even forgot to use his ears in the ToP and for some odd reason it was 17 who heard the bug, lmao.

They didn't take any real damage when he beat on them in their base forms, and Goku and Vegeta were not remotely worried for them. I think they could've beaten him easily with just Super Saiyan, but chose to use Gotenks to show off. That was, after all, the entire point of the fight.

Possibly, though when they went full power in the Buu saga Piccolo was impressed but Goku didn't seem surprised at all implying they really weren't in his league.

Well no, but I think that Dabra is SS2-tier anyway (something also stated in the guidebooks, as well as the anime if you care about that).

I would say Dabra is more buu saga ssj Goku/Vegeta tier than ssj tier. In the manga ssj2 Trunks pretty much wrecked Dabra, while Dabra was beating him as a ssj but it was a much closer fight, so I would say that back that up. I think Gohan's ssj2 level actually dropped low enough to where it could even be lower than buu saga ssj Goku/Vegeta, at least if we go by them saying they could deal with Dabra (before they revealed ssj2 for them).

Their spars with Gohan and Vegeta don't work if they're that weak, even ignoring guidebooks stating that they're close to Gohan. I also don't think Piccolo is that weak, he could at least stand against a Cell Junior.

Vegeta was already tired and most likely wasn't going all out, plus Trunks didn't damage him while one punch from him while holding back knocked Trunks and hurt him pretty bad.
As for Gohan he was pretty rusty at that point. When Trunks and Goten fought the audience was able to follow them, Goku didn't seem too surprised at their performance and just said they were pretty good.
While I definitely respect your opinion on where you have them and agree it's possible, I need more proof than them sparring with family members to put them above characters who have proved their strength.

[PFM18]

Outside of inconsistent Toei-specific scenes, no one in Super actually seems drastically stronger than in the Buu arc outside of new forms, Freeza, or 17

This is just false and I think you have misinterpreted the differences between the two mediums as a whole. Goku/Vegeta have consistently been portrayed as being massively stronger than their previous counterparts without even considering their new forms. This is not an inconsistency becasue they have been constantly portrayed this way, this is just an inherent difference in the power scaling in the two mediums. In the anime, Goku retains the level of power he had as a SSG as a SSJ, then Veegtea equals or even surpasses this level by training with Whis for 6 months while Goku was farming. This sequence of events didn't happen in the manga they just kind of stay the same. Characters being portrayed as being drastically stronger than in the Buu arc are not simply Toei inconsistencies but rather something that was thoroughly established during the story. Nothing inconsistent about it. The manga doesn't portray them as drastically stronger, and that is fine, that is just a choice the manga made when compared to the anime.

[ricky84]

Take these 11 antagonists, equalize their stats, take away zenkai's and immortality, and put them in a battle royale. How comes out on top?:
Freeza, Cell, Kid Buu, Buuhan, Omega Shenron, Beerus, Hit, Evil 21, Goku Black, Merged Zamasu and Demigra

[theherodjl]

Take these 11 antagonists, equalize their stats, take away zenkai's and immortality, and put them in a battle royale. How comes out on top?:
Freeza, Cell, Kid Buu, Buuhan, Omega Shenron, Beerus, Hit, Evil 21, Goku Black, Merged Zamasu and Demigra

Beerus wins if he just Hakais everyone else.

[AvatarReiko]

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta vs ROF Base Vegeta
Manga Zamasu vs Anime Zamasu

1. Luffy wins. 4th gear Luffy could make it in the 23th tenkaiichi
2. Kenshiro wins. He is Saibamen level
3. Ichigo wins. He is Saiyan Saga Vegeta level (no Oozaru) at his peak
4. Naruto wins. Saiyan saga Goku would need at least KKx2 to beat Hokage Naruto
5. I consider EoS Yusuke to be equal to Base Goku when he fought Freeza on Namek
6. SSJ2 Goku stomps. Saitama is at best Android 16 level with wank
7. D wins, too much hax. Goku would need at least Champa arc SSB levels of power to safely kill him
8. God cloth Seiya at his best is a little stronger than the 1st Omen but much weaker than the 2nd one.

I strongly disagree with these two points

Saiyan Saga Vegeta at max power can wipe out planets the size of earth and is 10x stronger in his Ozaruu form. Even Pre-training Piccolo could bust moons casually in one shot. No bleach character has shown anywhere near that level of power. Ichigo at the end of the manga is EOS dragon Ball level at best and that is with a bit of highballing. He would get slapped by anyone beyond. The only bleach character you could maybe make an argument for is Yhwah due to the ridiculous amount of hax he has with the Almighty, which is easily one the most broken powers in battle shonen

Base Form Namek Frieza could planets in his sleep. Saitama would get rekt by anyone beyond this point and that is being generous. SSJ2 is massively overkill and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Saitama

[Hugo Boss]

Android 18 (Survival Arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Goku swats her like a bug. Outside of inconsistent Toei-specific scenes, no one in Super actually seems drastically stronger outside of new forms, Freeza, or 17.

Which is clearly false. For example both KKx20 Goku and SSB Vegeta from ep.122 onward were much stronger than the KKx20 Goku from the hour special and had surpassed the 1st Omen in power in ep.123. And this was explicitly acknowledged in dialogue from the cast (especially Jiren himself) and the narrator as them getting stronger as the ToP went on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TC3xq6AnjM

They got stronger in the tournament, but I don’t see how you can compare some of these instances. For example, how exactly did SSB Vegeta surpass Kaioken SSB on ep.122 and Ultra Instinct on ep.123?

[ricky84]

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta vs ROF Base Vegeta
Manga Zamasu vs Anime Zamasu

1. Luffy wins. 4th gear Luffy could make it in the 23th tenkaiichi
2. Kenshiro wins. He is Saibamen level
3. Ichigo wins. He is Saiyan Saga Vegeta level (no Oozaru) at his peak
4. Naruto wins. Saiyan saga Goku would need at least KKx2 to beat Hokage Naruto
5. I consider EoS Yusuke to be equal to Base Goku when he fought Freeza on Namek
6. SSJ2 Goku stomps. Saitama is at best Android 16 level with wank
7. D wins, too much hax. Goku would need at least Champa arc SSB levels of power to safely kill him
8. God cloth Seiya at his best is a little stronger than the 1st Omen but much weaker than the 2nd one.

I strongly disagree with these two points

Saiyan Saga Vegeta at max power can wipe out planets the size of earth and is 10x stronger in his Ozaruu form. Even Pre-training Piccolo could bust moons casually in one shot. No bleach character has shown anywhere near that level of power. Ichigo at the end of the manga is EOS dragon Ball level at best and that is with a bit of highballing. He would get slapped by anyone beyond. The only bleach character you could maybe make an argument for is Yhwah due to the ridiculous amount of hax he has with the Almighty, which is easily one the most broken powers in battle shonen

Base Form Namek Frieza could planets in his sleep. Saitama would get rekt by anyone beyond this point and that is being generous. SSJ2 is massively overkill and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Saitama

Good points, though I've always considered top-tier Bleach characters like Aizen, Yhwah and EoZ Ichigo to be Saiyan saga level.

The reason why I put Saitama around early Android arc levels is because Boros is debatably a star-buster if you go by the official OPM guides, and Saitama only used a fraction of his power to beat him.