The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[ricky84]

Kefla should be leaps and bounds stronger than Vegeta in that scenario. She shouldn't even need SSJ3 she could win with SSJ2. SSJ3 is just overkill. SSJ2 is relative to the 2nd UI Omen and Vegeta is inferior to that.

Hit is definitely not stronger than Freeza. Freeza is even with current SSB Goku and from what we saw against Dyspo/Pride Troopers, Hit is closer to SSG than he is to SSB. SSB Goku defeated him before and he has gotten stronger since then.

1. Both KKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta in ep.123 surpassed the first two UI Omens in power. This is because they were able to force Jiren to use far more against them then he did against even the 1st UI Omen. Belmod even said that Jiren was using more power in that episode than he had ever seen him use in years. So even before the power boost he got from the Toppo fight, SSBE Vegeta should be at or above SSJ2 Kefla level.

2. Neither Hit nor Dyspo were at full power when they fought each other. Hit in the anime was able to put up much better fight against Jiren than KKx20 Goku did in the hour special. That puts him WAY above the likes of True Golden Freeza and Light Speed Dyspo. Then when you factor in Hit's Pure Progress ability, it's a guaranteed win for him.

This is just speculation and wasn't made entirely clear. They were fighting Jiren 2v1 and Jiren used more power. This was simply a component of the two fighting him and as Whis stated, they were giving Jiren a hard time because they were so uncoordinated. That doesn't even indicate that they had surpassed the frist Omen, let alone the 2nd.

This isn't a matter of Hit vs Dyspo individually, when it was Goku and Hit vs Dyspo and the other Pride Trooper, it was portrayed as Dyspo, Hit and SSG Goku all being around the same level. With Goku overpowering Dyspo when he went SSB.

Jiren power-ed up against Goku and Vegeta before they started attacking him with their uncoordinated moves. This means Jiren clearly saw them as stronger than at least the 1st UI Omen (maybe even the 2nd also) before the 2 on 1 fight began. If they weren't stronger than the 1st Omen then Jiren wouldn't have felf the need to use more of his raw power because in DB raw power>everything else if the gap is big enough

Again, neither Hit nor Dyspo were at full power when they fought. Full Power Dyspo was shown to be at best Golden Freeza level, which is too low to even hurt a suppressed Jiren. Hit managed to put out a way better fight against Jiren than KKx20 Goku, there is no way a character that is only SSG level could do that.

[ricky84]

Let's see if fusion can shake things up!

BoZ Goku/Piccolo fusion dance vs Nappa.
Goku/Piccolo Potara vs Oozaru Nappa.
Saiyan arc Krillin/Gohan fusion dance vs Vegeta using galick gun.
Krillin/Gohan Potara vs Oozaru Vegeta.
Namek arc Yamcha/Tenshinhan fusion dance vs Freeza 2nd form.
Yamcha/Tenshinhan Potara vs Final Form Freeza(starting power).
Android arc Base Gogeta vs Android 19 or 20.
Base Vegetto vs Android 16.
Cell Games Base Vegeta/Trunks fusion dance vs Imperfect Cell(post absorption of earthlings).
Base Vegeta/Trunks Potara vs Perfect Cell(degree of power used against FPSSJ Goku).
Boo arc SSJ Vegeta/Gohan(NOT Ultimate) fusion dance vs Super Boo.
SSJ Vegeta/Gohan Potara vs Boohan(say he just teleported in from an alternate timeline after absorbing his timeline's Ultimate Gohan).
BOG arc SSJ3 Gogeta(after absorbing Gohan, Goten, and Trunks' Ki) vs Beerus(degree of power he used against SSJG Goku).
SSJ3 Vegetto vs Beerus(same deal).

1. Nappa loses
2. Nappa wins
3. Fusion wins
4. Fusion wins
5. fusion wins
6. fusion wins
7. Base Gogeta solos the Android arc
8. Base Vegito solos the Android arc
9. fusion solos
10. fusion wins
11. fusion wins
12. Beerus one shots
13. Beerus on shots

[ricky84]

Spirit Sword Trunks vs Black arc Vegito (no time limit)
Mastered Berzerk Kale vs Base Black (no scythe)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gotenks (Buu arc)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Late Black arc SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta
True Golden Freeza and ToP Gohan vs all of U2 & U9

[Berserker1921]

Spirit Sword Trunks vs Black arc Vegito (no time limit)
Mastered Berzerk Kale vs Base Black (no scythe)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gotenks (Buu arc)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Late Black arc SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta
True Golden Freeza and ToP Gohan vs all of U2 & U9

1. Vegito, superior fighter and he weakned Zamasu of at least tired him out enough for trunks to finish the job. He beats trunks rather easily. Also Zamasu was too full of himself and underestimated trunks again.

2. Black. Kale is about high tier ssj3. Black was at least god level in his base when he first tussled with Vegeta.

3. If gotenks doesn’t screw around he wins, he is super buu level. While Cell is barely ssj3 level or less.

4. They slaughter 17, I personally have 17 to be high-tier god-to low tier ssjblue. And before you argue that he did well against Jiren. That was because of 17’s shield haxs and unlimited energy. Had he not had any of those, Toppo would have easily taken him out.

5. They kill the teams. The only real threat is Bergamo, however Frieza wouldn’t power him up like Goku did and would go for the kill.

[Hulk10]

The DBH game claims that SSB Goku is a step above than SS4 Goku and the DBH manga seems to say that too, but I don't buy that.

[DestructoDisc]

Spirit Sword Trunks vs Black arc Vegito (no time limit)
Mastered Berzerk Kale vs Base Black (no scythe)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gotenks (Buu arc)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Late Black arc SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta
True Golden Freeza and ToP Gohan vs all of U2 & U9

4. They slaughter 17, I personally have 17 to be high-tier god-to low tier ssjblue. And before you argue that he did well against Jiren. That was because of 17’s shield haxs and unlimited energy. Had he not had any of those, Toppo would have easily taken him out.

Yet Ribrianne easily managed to destroy that shield somehow

[Berserker1921]

Spirit Sword Trunks vs Black arc Vegito (no time limit)
Mastered Berzerk Kale vs Base Black (no scythe)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gotenks (Buu arc)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Late Black arc SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta
True Golden Freeza and ToP Gohan vs all of U2 & U9

4. They slaughter 17, I personally have 17 to be high-tier god-to low tier ssjblue. And before you argue that he did well against Jiren. That was because of 17’s shield haxs and unlimited energy. Had he not had any of those, Toppo would have easily taken him out.

Yet Ribrianne easily managed to destroy that shield somehow

Yet GoD Toppo couldn’t? There is a difference in power. I am ste he didn’t see ribrianne as a threat. So why use a full power shield against someone you believe to be weaker. Also if we go by your statement, Jiren broke through his shield. So ribrianne is Jiren level? Lol. It’s inconsistent. However I don’t feel 17 is that powerful.

[dragon boss z]

Two Cell Juniors fused together should be considerably weaker than SS Gotenks, as the Cell Juniors are weaker than SS Goten and SS Trunks. as Piccolo was able to somewhat hold his own against a Cell Junior one-on-one and he's a pathetic weakling compared to Kaioshin, who himself admits that he's weaker than any of the adult Super Saiyans. Goten and Trunks meanwhile were clearly on that level; Goten could make Gohan work up a sweat in sparring and Trunks could land a hit on Vegeta.

Supporting this is a page in the Super manga which depicts Goten and Trunks fending off some Cell Juniors (who have presumably grown stronger) while outnumbered 4-1, though with visible effort suggesting their levels aren't dimensions apart.

Gohan and Vegeta weren't going all out against the kids. Base Goten and Trunks were getting casually beat by 18 who was weaker than Piccolo, who was stronger than base Goku and Vegeta, who had strength that shocked the supreme Kai. The supreme Kai was also around for when Goten and Trunks fought during the prelims and yet he was still surprised at Goku and Vegeta's strength. The kids are not even close to the adults in power. Goten and Trunks would get one shot by Dabura who Gohan was able to fight.

[RandomGuy96]

Two Cell Juniors fused together should be considerably weaker than SS Gotenks, as the Cell Juniors are weaker than SS Goten and SS Trunks. as Piccolo was able to somewhat hold his own against a Cell Junior one-on-one and he's a pathetic weakling compared to Kaioshin, who himself admits that he's weaker than any of the adult Super Saiyans. Goten and Trunks meanwhile were clearly on that level; Goten could make Gohan work up a sweat in sparring and Trunks could land a hit on Vegeta.

Supporting this is a page in the Super manga which depicts Goten and Trunks fending off some Cell Juniors (who have presumably grown stronger) while outnumbered 4-1, though with visible effort suggesting their levels aren't dimensions apart.

Gohan and Vegeta weren't going all out against the kids. Base Goten and Trunks were getting casually beat by 18 who was weaker than Piccolo, who was stronger than base Goku and Vegeta, who had strength that shocked the supreme Kai. The supreme Kai was also around for when Goten and Trunks fought during the prelims and yet he was still surprised at Goku and Vegeta's strength. The kids are not even close to the adults in power. Goten and Trunks would get one shot by Dabura who Gohan was able to fight.

Yeah I'm going to go ahead and take the official material and art over your poorly formatted and subjective assertions.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah I'm going to go ahead and take the official material and art over your poorly formatted and subjective assertions.

There is no official material that says kid Goten and Trunks are above Piccolo... When defused Piccolo became dominant in Super Buu, and Piccolo has spared with Gohan before as well. So what you meant to say is you are taking your own interpretation of official material and pretending it is a fact. Official material also has Goten being forced to go ssj by Chichi, and like I said, nothing anywhere says ssj Goten and Trunks are above Piccolo.
Actually official material says the opposite as Piccolo was chosen as a fighter in the U6 tournament, Goku even thinking he would be better than rusty Gohan, and Vegeta saying without fusion Goten and Trunks would be useless.
Not to mention they had trouble with Abo and Cado who should only be first form Frieza level meaning they are weaker than namek Goku, and in the Super anime when Bulma says her son killed Frieza Jaco said that's impossible a kid can't beat Frieza, and she said of course it was her son from the future. There is also the direct statement from Beerus saying post buu saga base Goku isn't enough to beat Frieza. Also in the anime ssj Goten and Trunks together seemed about even with 18.

Can two cell juniors fused together fight Super Buu evenly?
I don't think they can... Some say they can...

Depends on how the fusion boost works on the. I believe they are above ssj Goten and Trunks, so if the boost is the same for them I think they would be above ssj Gotenks. However they may not be stronger than a hypothetical ssj3 Goten and Trunks, so they may not be ssj3 Gotenks level.

Let's see if fusion can shake things up!
BoZ Goku/Piccolo fusion dance vs Nappa.
Goku/Piccolo Potara vs Oozaru Nappa.
Saiyan arc Krillin/Gohan fusion dance vs Vegeta using galick gun.
Krillin/Gohan Potara vs Oozaru Vegeta.
Namek arc Yamcha/Tenshinhan fusion dance vs Freeza 2nd form.
Yamcha/Tenshinhan Potara vs Final Form Freeza(starting power).
Android arc Base Gogeta vs Android 19 or 20.
Base Vegetto vs Android 16.
Cell Games Base Vegeta/Trunks fusion dance vs Imperfect Cell(post absorption of earthlings).
Base Vegeta/Trunks Potara vs Perfect Cell(degree of power used against FPSSJ Goku).
Boo arc SSJ Vegeta/Gohan(NOT Ultimate) fusion dance vs Super Boo.
SSJ Vegeta/Gohan Potara vs Boohan(say he just teleported in from an alternate timeline after absorbing his timeline's Ultimate Gohan).
BOG arc SSJ3 Gogeta(after absorbing Gohan, Goten, and Trunks' Ki) vs Beerus(degree of power he used against SSJG Goku).
SSJ3 Vegetto vs Beerus(same deal).

Fusions win all rounds except against final form Frieza and Beerus.

Spirit Sword Trunks vs Black arc Vegito (no time limit)
Mastered Berzerk Kale vs Base Black (no scythe)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gotenks (Buu arc)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Late Black arc SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta
True Golden Freeza and ToP Gohan vs all of U2 & U9

-Vegito
-Could go either way, manga Kale probably wins unless she gets tired out, but I would lean Black in the anime.
-Cell based off of my numbers
-Goku and Vegeta
-Frieza and Gohan

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah I'm going to go ahead and take the official material and art over your poorly formatted and subjective assertions.

There is no official material that says kid Goten and Trunks are above Piccolo...

Daizenshuu 7 says they're close to Gohan, AKA far above Piccolo.

When defused Piccolo became dominant in Super Buu,

No he didn't. The kids still had more influence as they were actually morphing his body. Piccolo just added a cape. We see another Piccolo Buu later that looks completely different.

and Piccolo has spared with Gohan before as well.

No he hasn't.

Actually official material says the opposite as Piccolo was chosen as a fighter in the U6 tournament, Goku even thinking he would be better than rusty Gohan, and Vegeta saying without fusion Goten and Trunks would be useless.

The middle is anime only shit. The rest is down to their immaturity. Gohan didn't want them to fight Freeza either even though Roshi was allowed to come.

Not to mention they had trouble with Abo and Cado who should only be first form Frieza level meaning they are weaker than namek Goku,

Nope. They one shotted Abo and Kado in the manga version.

and in the Super anime when Bulma says her son killed Frieza Jaco said that's impossible a kid can't beat Frieza, and she said of course it was her son from the future.

I don't care what Toei says, they have no impact on the manga's continuity.

Interestingly enough another Toei production (movie 11) at least depicts the kids as dimensions above #18. They were beating on Bio Broly and inflicted real damage while #18 couldn't budge him.

Also in the anime ssj Goten and Trunks together seemed about even with 18.

In the manga, Goten outright stated that they had to hold back so as not to kill #18 with one attack. And apparently they still didn't hold back enough because 18 was sweating bullets after narrowly dodging one attack.

When Gohan and Vegeta seemingly die, Piccolo also outright says that Trunks and Goten (not him) are Earth's best remaining defense, and this was before he learned about fusion.

[ZombieVito]

This is pretty fun lol. I got a few more.

U7 top 3 (MUI Goku, SSBE Vegeta & 17) vs U11 top 3 (LB Jiren, GoD Toppo & LS Dyspo) in a death match
Cabba, Caulfila and Kale (no fusion) vs all U2 & U9 fighters
SSBE Vegito (Post-ToP) vs MUI Goku & LB Jiren
Goku (no kaioken) vs Vegeta (equal stats)
ToP Krillin, Tien and Roshi vs Super Buu
SSJ3 Raditz vs Early Namek arc Goku

Freeza >> 17. Still team U7 wins.
No U2 or U9 fighter can compete with a Super Saiyan from U6. U6 wins easily.
Vegetto wins very easily. He could even defeat the GP.
Goku I guess.
Unless Roshi seals him with the Mafuba, Boo kills them easily.
Raditz would be at 600,000. Goku has no chance.

SSJ Nappa vs the entire Ginyu Force (no body change)
Android 18 vs Trio de dangers
Merged Zamasu (halo) vs Hit (ToP)
SSG Vegito (ToP) vs GoD Toppo
True Golden Freeza vs RoF SSB Goku & Vegeta

Nappa would be at 200,000. The Ginyu force might take this if they fight together.
18 loses. The Trio's teamwork forced Goku and Vegeta to use Super Saiyan.
Hit can't do anything. Not only is he way weaker but if he manages to destroy Zamasu's body then the later will turn into Infinite Zamasu and kill him.
SSG? Toppo murders.
Freeza wins easily.

So, killing would be allowed, anything goes in these fights.

WHO WINS?

Hit vs Goku (Omen)
Hit vs Jiren (Full power: But NOT "limit breaker")
Hit vs Kefla (base)
Hit vs Kefla ( ssj)

The only fight Hit wins here is against base Kefla. Every other fighter is way out of his league.

MUI Vegito (Post-ToP) vs Whis
Aniraza vs Base Toppo and SSJR Trunks
SSJ4 Goku (Buu Saga) vs Buuhan
Base Black (Prime) vs SSJ2 Caulifla and Cabba

MUI Vegetto would destroy anyone not named Zeno or Zamasu.
Aniraza wins easily.
I have no idea about GT.
Black kills them in one second.

Hop VS android 18

18 takes this. Hop is weaker than Ribrianne who 18 beat.

You're free to do so, but to me it holds no more legitimacy than GT did, and has much of the same power scaling issues. Battle performance never seems to actually be indicative of anything in Toei's DB. Anyone can do anything to anyone else. I can no more trust that Vegetto and Zamasu should actually be having a good fight than Zamasu giving Blue Goku a hard time, and SS1/2 Trunks getting the better of Rose Goku Black and killing someone stronger than Blue Vegetto. When it had already been well established that Zamasu was no more than on par with SS2 Goku, and that Trunks couldn't even handle base-form Goku Black or SS3 Goku, who wiped him out in one hit. I can no more trust that Hit should be on par with SSB Goku x 20 than Piccolo taking on a guy stronger than Freeza's fourth form about a week after getting one-shotted by Freeza's 1st form. I can no more trust that Ultimate Gohan is on par with SSB after a day of training than Kale beating the shit out of Blue, dropping a statement that she’s gotten stronger, and losing decisively 2v1 against Red.

A lot of wrong here. Let's see:

1.- You are forgetting that Zamasu got a massive boost thanks to his Light of Justice. That makes him reach Vegetto's level.
2.- Trunks managed to hit SSR Black once. Woah, he must be equal to him, fantastic logic there.
3.- Trunks absorbed the power of the people, Earth and Goku/Vegeta into himself, not to mention that Zamasu was slower and could have been weaker since he was falling apart. I see no issue here.
4.- Are you forgetting Ikari?
5.- Hit shouldn't be on par with Kaioken x20... What are you talking about?
6.- Piccolo trained with Gohan, Frost was tired and Piccolo ran from the entire match, once Frost hit him he got one shotted. I see no issue here.
7.- Gohan broke his limits fighting Goku. I agree it's a bit of a stretch but eh so is Goku getting stronger by drinking water.
8.- You need to watch the episodes again because Goku said that he would use "A little more power" while turning Blue. He was not going all out.

I'm honestly baffled that you prefer the manga seeing how shit Toyo has treated every single character not named Goku or Vegeta.

SSJ3 Kefla vs SSBE Vegeta (Post-ToP)
Hit (ToP) vs ToP Gohan & True Golden Freeza
SSJR Goku Black (Scythe) vs Full Power Base Toppo
KKx20 Goku (Post-ToP) vs 2nd Omen Goku
SSJ Rage Trunks (first transformation) vs SSB Copy-Vegeta

Kefla takes this unless Vegeta tires her out since SS3 has stamina issues.
Since Freeza had the skill to predict Jimeze's IT, I can see him dealing with Hit with Gohan's help.
Goku Black was stated to be the strongest non fused character in E65 and since we don't see Goku or Vegeta making big gains after the arc, I have them as equals. Add the clones to the fight and Toppo would need to use his GoD power.
UI Omen still wins.
Trunks has this with mild difficulty.

SSJ3 Kefla vs 3rd Omen Goku
SSBE Vegeta (Post-ToP) vs The rest of team U11 (minus Jiren & Toppo)
Aniraza vs SSJ1 Vegito (ToP)
Super Baby 1 vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu arc)
Piccolo (Champa arc) vs SSJ2 Goku (Buu arc)
SSJ3 Future Gohan vs Semi-Perfect Cell

Same has with your battle with Vegeta.
Vegeta laughs while beating all of them to a pulp.
Aniraza wins.
I have no idea.
Piccolo wins.
Cell wins after a good fight.

Can two cell juniors fused together fight Super Buu evenly?

I don't think they can... Some say they can...

We have no idea what the fusion boost would be. I still gives this to Boo personally.

Spirit Sword Trunks vs Black arc Vegito (no time limit)
Mastered Berzerk Kale vs Base Black (no scythe)
KKx20 Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gotenks (Buu arc)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Late Black arc SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta
True Golden Freeza and ToP Gohan vs all of U2 & U9

Vegetto has this after a good fight.
Black wins. He's SSG tier in base.
Cell only needs regular Kaioken to win.
Anyone from team B murders 17 in seconds.
Gohan and Freeza don't even need to use their final forms to beat them.

[RandomGuy96]

1.- You are forgetting that Zamasu got a massive boost thanks to his Light of Justice. That makes him reach Vegetto's level.

It's literally just "I'm stronger now" with nothing else to it.

You ignored the point about Zamasu's fluctuating strength in relation to Goku, from SS1 tier to SSB tier with no noted change in power and no reason for why got stronger. God forbid I mention Chaozu paralyzing Goku. Or Piccolo and co tiring themselves out fighting Freeza soldiers. Or a bunch of them getting eaten by a wild animal. Or Goku and Trunks doing more damage to Fused Zamasu on their own than Blue Vegetto. Or Krillin forcing Goku into Super Saiyan Blue. Or Beerus's "10%" line. Or Gohan and Goku fighting on par form for form. Or Black jobbing to gas grenades. Or Basil being dimensions below Mr. Buu yet also able to engage the supposedly Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto+ tier SS Vegeta and trade blows for a while (and even force him into SSB alongside his brothers) instead of instantly getting wiped out by an errant counter. Or having Caulifla simultaneously be Goku’s peer, but also unable to overwhelm, or even touch his base form as a Super Saiyan.

2.- Trunks managed to hit SSR Black once. Woah, he must be equal to him, fantastic logic there.

Never said that they were equal, and yes, it's complete nonsense for Trunks to engage in a protracted battle with, and land a good hit on, Rose Black when a few hours ago he was one-shot fodder material against Black's base form. At least, nonsensical by manga logic. By Toei logic, where base Goku can smack around Ultimate Gohan, it's par for the course.

3.- Trunks absorbed the power of the people, Earth and Goku/Vegeta into himself, not to mention that Zamasu was slower and could have been weaker since he was falling apart.

Tens of thousands of humans (all that was left after the androids were through) would be an utterly negligible addition to his power and Goku/Vegeta were dozens of times weaker than Zamasu at least and half-dead. Come on man, you know it, I know it. The scene is completely nonsensical unless you're going by Toei logic where half-dead base Vegeta giving Goku his energy lets the latter go Saitama on Broly. Which is appropriate since the entire Super anime goes on Toei "logic."

4.- Are you forgetting Ikari?

No, I am not.

5.- Hit shouldn't be on par with Kaioken x20... What are you talking about?

He was fighting on par with Goku's Kaio-Ken.

6.- Piccolo trained with Gohan,

For 1 month or so. After 12 straight years of training produced absolutely no noticeable results.

Frost was tired and Piccolo ran from the entire match, once Frost hit him he got one shotted.

Except that's wrong and you know it, he managed to block a bunch of punches from Frost (who was still at least stronger than the base saiyans and therefore above anime!4th form Freeza) and restrain him with one arm. Frost had to cheat to win, he outright admitted that he would have lost fairly.

7.- Gohan broke his limits fighting Goku. I agree it's a bit of a stretch but eh so is Goku getting stronger by drinking water.

"It's comparable to the stupidest plot point in the manga" is never a defense for Toei's consistently nonsensical power scaling. It doesn't even pretend to make sense.

8.- You need to watch the episodes again because Goku said that he would use "A little more power" while turning Blue. He was not going all out.

Completely your own assumption, he made an ambiguous statement about how much stronger Blue made him, never outright said he was only using a fraction of his power. This seems to be the Super fan's response to everything, everyone was holding back all the time against everyone else, except when they weren't.

I'm honestly baffled that you prefer the manga seeing how shit Toyo has treated every single character not named Goku or Vegeta.

Anime ain't any better (in fact it's considerably worse just because of pacing) and I don't think either of them are good at all. One is just more consistent and has less shit added on it so it makes it easier to distinguish between Toei additions and what was in the outline, and it's generally less of a headache.

[dragon boss z]

Daizenshuu 7 says they're close to Gohan, AKA far above Piccolo.

Close is a relative term and Gohan is much weaker than before, we don't know how he stands compared to Piccolo or if he is still stronger than a Cell jr.

No he didn't. The kids still had more influence as they were actually morphing his body. Piccolo just added a cape. We see another Piccolo Buu later that looks completely different.

Piccolo was the first thing anyone would think when looking at that version of Buu, and you also have to take into consideration there are two of them and only one Piccolo.

No he hasn't.

In Super he did.

The middle is anime only shit. The rest is down to their immaturity. Gohan didn't want them to fight Freeza either even though Roshi was allowed to come.

I doubt Goku cares about that and his 2nd pick after Buu was Piccolo.

In the manga, Goten outright stated that they had to hold back so as not to kill #18 with one attack. And apparently they still didn't hold back enough because 18 was sweating bullets after narrowly dodging one attack.

I'm looking at two different translations right now and that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing Trunks saying 18 won't be killed by their ki attacks and Goten just reminding him to hold back. 17 was just shocked at their power. I would be shocked if an 8 year old benched 200 pounds, that doesn't mean the 8 year old benches more than me. Plus kids with that much power is scary. It's like 8 year olds with access to nukes and 18 has her daughter in the stands.

When Gohan and Vegeta seemingly die, Piccolo also outright says that Trunks and Goten (not him) are Earth's best remaining defense, and this was before he learned about fusion.

They are. Piccolo is pretty much useless while Goten and Trunks could get massively stronger with their potential.

[RandomGuy96]

Close is a relative term and Gohan is much weaker than before, we don't know how he stands compared to Piccolo or if he is still stronger than a Cell jr.

We do actually. Kaioshin says SS Gohan is stronger than him. Kaioshin is far stronger than Piccolo according to Daizenshuu 7, Daizenshuu 4, and Piccolo himself in the manga.

Piccolo was the first thing anyone would think when looking at that version of Buu, and you also have to take into consideration there are two of them and only one Piccolo.

Doesn't make them right. It's irrelevant anyway because we see that the kids are in their base forms inside Buu's body.

In Super he did.

In the anime. In his base form. SS Goten sparred with SS Gohan and made him break a sweat. SS Trunks sparred with SS Vegeta and landed a hit on him. That indicates they're not too far apart, and it's far above what Piccolo could manage.

I doubt Goku cares about that and his 2nd pick after Buu was Piccolo.

Except when it comes time to pick fighters for the next tournament, Goten and Trunks are excluded in favor of Roshi and Tenshinhan, explicitly because of their immaturity. So apparently he does.

I'm looking at two different translations right now and that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing Trunks saying 18 won't be killed by their ki attacks and Goten just reminding him to hold back.

That's exactly what they mean. They're holding back because they don't want to kill her, which they openly acknowledge as a possibility. That's why Trunks assures Goten that she'll survive "if [they] do it appropriately."

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “We’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

18 also outright says that the fight is dangerous for her after seeing that heavily held back ki blast, and she clearly doesn't care about innocent bystanders:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

They are. Piccolo is pretty much useless while Goten and Trunks could get massively stronger with their potential.

Except Buu was rampaging right now. They didn't have any time. If Piccolo was stronger than they were, someone would have noted it, as that would have made him Earth's strongest remaining warrior. Instead he openly admits that Trunks and Goten are Earth's best remaining defense. He's pretty much totally irrelevant power-wise at this point in the series.

[dragon boss z]

We do actually. Kaioshin says SS Gohan is stronger than him. Kaioshin is far stronger than Piccolo according to Daizenshuu 7, Daizenshuu 4, and Piccolo himself in the manga.

Was it stated ssj Gohan was stronger than Kaioshin? I would believe it, but I don't remember that being stated. Ssj Goku/Vegeta and ssj2 Goku were definitely stronger than him though.

In the anime. In his base form. SS Goten sparred with SS Gohan and made him break a sweat. SS Trunks sparred with SS Vegeta and landed a hit on him. That indicates they're not too far apart, and it's far above what Piccolo could manage.

He did beat ssj2 Gohan in that one scene before the ToP.

Except when it comes time to pick fighters for the next tournament, Goten and Trunks are excluded in favor of Roshi and Tenshinhan, explicitly because of their immaturity. So apparently he does.

Goku actually brought up brining Goten and Trunks, but Vegeta shot it down. So Goku doesn't seem to have a problem bringing them in and he chose Piccolo over them. Goku was also the one who tried to let the fate of the world rest in their hands against Buu, so it would be out of character for him to think it's not ok for them to fight in a tournament.

That's exactly what they mean. They're holding back because they don't want to kill her, which they openly acknowledge as a possibility. That's why Trunks assures Goten that she'll survive "if [they] do it appropriately."

I don't see the appropriately part in the scans I'm looking at, and 18 still seemed to think she could take them.

Except Buu was rampaging right now. They didn't have any time. If Piccolo was stronger than they were, someone would have noted it, as that would have made him Earth's strongest remaining warrior. Instead he openly admits that Trunks and Goten are Earth's best remaining defense. He's pretty much totally irrelevant power-wise at this point in the series.

They had the ROSAT. And there is no point in bringing up Piccolo being the Earth's strongest remaining warrior anywyas as it is not relevant or important to the plot. He pretty much had to be talking about their potential as without fusion Goten and Trunks were absolute fodder to Buu. Even base Gotenks was fodder.

Also lets look at fusion for a second. Base Vegito was stated to be stronger than ssj3 Goku, which means even if we highball Gotenks, his ssj would at best be slightly above base Vegito, but I think most people actually have base Vegito above ssj Gotenks, and some above even ssj3 Gotenks. Lets say base Vegito is ssj Gotenks tier. Shouldn't that mean base Goku and Vegeta would be around ssj Goten and Trunks tier? And it was confirmed their ssj form was still weaker than ssj2 kid Gohan meaning they were less than 2x stronger than kid Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

You ignored the point about Zamasu's fluctuating strength in relation to Goku, from SS1 tier to SSB tier with no noted change in power and no reason for why got stronger. God forbid I mention Chaozu paralyzing Goku. Or Piccolo and co tiring themselves out fighting Freeza soldiers. Or a bunch of them getting eaten by a wild animal. Or Goku and Trunks doing more damage to Fused Zamasu on their own than Blue Vegetto. Or Krillin forcing Goku into Super Saiyan Blue. Or Beerus's "10%" line. Or Gohan and Goku fighting on par form for form. Or Black jobbing to gas grenades. Or Basil being dimensions below Mr. Buu yet also able to engage the supposedly Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto+ tier SS Vegeta and trade blows for a while (and even force him into SSB alongside his brothers) instead of instantly getting wiped out by an errant counter. Or having Caulifla simultaneously be Goku’s peer, but also unable to overwhelm, or even touch his base form as a Super Saiyan.

1) Zamasu is not SSB level...
2) What's wrong with Chaozu paralyzing Goku for a few seconds? I see nothing wrong with him having better mental abilities than physically ones. Did you complsined when Tenshinhan held Cell back with the Kikoho?
3) Well they will get tired since they are suppressing themselves to not kill.
4) Them getting eaten by that fish didn't happen in Super. Still, there's nothing wrong with that.
5) Well duh, they were fighting a weaker Zamasu.
6) No he didn't.
7) I'll give you the 10% line.
Goku was just playing around. That fight wasn't serious at all.
9) Are you seriously going to complain about the gas grenades? It's practically the same thing as Trunks using the Tayioken.
10) Nowhere is it stated that Basil is dimensions apart from Boo.
11) Base Goku beating SS2 Caulifla was explained in the show...

Never said that they were equal, and yes, it's completely nonsense for Trunks to engage in a protracted battle with, and land a good hit on, Rose Black when a few hours ago he was one-shot fodder material against Black's base form. At least, nonsensical by manga logic. By Toei logic, where base Goku can smack around Ultimate Gohan, it's par for the course.

Explain Kuririn evading Nappa. He's not even half of as powerful as Nappa so he shouldn't be able to do that according to "power levels". Or better yet, explain how in the Super manga Zamasu was able to dodge Blue Goku's attacks.

Tens of thousands of humans (all that was left after the androids were through) would be an utterly negligible addition to his power and Goku/Vegeta were dozens of times weaker than Zamasu at least and half-dead. Come on man, you know it, I know it. The scene is completely nonsensical unless you're going by Toei logic where half-dead base Vegeta giving Goku his energy lets the latter go Saitama on Broly. Which is appropriate since the entire Super anime goes on Toei "logic."

Trunks absorbed the energy. That never is an addition. See movie 7, 8 or BoG.

He was fighting on par with Goku's Kaio-Ken.

No. He did not. He was getting destroyed until he improved his Time Skip.

For 1 month or so. After 12 straight years of training produced absolutely no noticeable results.

8 months. They used the Dragon Balls again in E29.

Except that's wrong and you know it, he managed to block a bunch of punches from Frost (who was still at least stronger than the base saiyans and therefore above anime!4th form Freeza) and restrain him with one arm. Frost had to cheat to win, he outright admitted that he would have lost fairly.

Just because you restrain someone doesn't mean you are stronger. See Goku on Raditz or Giran on Goku.

Completely your own assumption, he made an ambiguous statement about how much stronger Blue made him, never outright said he was only using a fraction of his power. This seems to be the Super fan's response to everything, everyone was holding back all the time against everyone else, except when they weren't.

No. It literally is that. He's using just a little more power than SS2 with Blue. There's no issue here.

[RandomGuy96]

Was it stated ssj Gohan was stronger than Kaioshin? I would believe it, but I don't remember that being stated. Ssj Goku/Vegeta and ssj2 Goku were definitely stronger than him though.

Kaioshin admitted inferiority to SS1 Goku and SS1 Goku was able to get him to back down by threatening him. Goku stated that Gohan was close to his strength (hence why they could do the fusion dance).

He did beat ssj2 Gohan in that one scene before the ToP.

Again, in the anime. As I noted above, the anime version of Super just does whatever it wants in regards to power scaling, so I don't really use it.

Goku actually brought up brining Goten and Trunks, but Vegeta shot it down. So Goku doesn't seem to have a problem bringing them in and he chose Piccolo over them. Goku was also the one who tried to let the fate of the world rest in their hands against Buu, so it would be out of character for him to think it's not ok for them to fight in a tournament.

I don't see the appropriately part in the scans I'm looking at, and 18 still seemed to think she could take them.

I just posted the quote. And 18 explicitly cannot take them, which is why she said "this is dangerous, I have to end this now", which she does by cutting their costume so she doesn't actually have to fight them.

They had the ROSAT. And there is no point in bringing up Piccolo being the Earth's strongest remaining warrior anywyas as it is not relevant or important to the plot. He pretty much had to be talking about their potential as without fusion Goten and Trunks were absolute fodder to Buu.

Piccolo outright forgot about the ROSAT's effects, I would be surprised if he was actually remembering it in this instance.

In any case he admitted that Goten and Trunks were "a very slim hope" (i.e. they had basically no chance against Buu), but they were still worth more than him.

Also lets look at fusion for a second. Base Vegito was stated to be stronger than ssj3 Goku, which means even if we highball Gotenks, his ssj would at best be slightly above base Vegito, but I think most people actually have base Vegito above ssj Gotenks, and some above even ssj3 Gotenks. Lets say base Vegito is ssj Gotenks tier. Shouldn't that mean base Goku and Vegeta would be around ssj Goten and Trunks tier? And it was confirmed their ssj form was still weaker than ssj2 kid Gohan meaning they were less than 2x stronger than kid Gohan.

Well no, because Potara fusion is a lot stronger than the dance fusion. We've never seen a Potara fusion of Goten and Trunks.

[RandomGuy96]

-snip-

Taking it to the relevant thread.

[dragon boss z]

Kaioshin admitted inferiority to SS1 Goku and SS1 Goku was able to get him to back down by threatening him. Goku stated that Gohan was close to his strength (hence why they could do the fusion dance).

Goku also contemplated fusing with Mr. Satan. I wouldn't put mic stalk in that.

Again, in the anime. As I noted above, the anime version of Super just does whatever it wants in regards to power scaling, so I don't really use it.

I agree with this, but the daizenshuu and the anime are both official sources. The only real 100% canon source is the orignal manga by Toriyama himself. The daizenshuu and anime are both supplementary material.

Goku actually brought up brining Goten and Trunks, but Vegeta shot it down. So Goku doesn't seem to have a problem bringing them in and he chose Piccolo over them. Goku was also the one who tried to let the fate of the world rest in their hands against Buu, so it would be out of character for him to think it's not ok for them to fight in a tournament.

You quoted this but didn't respond, so I'll re quote i case you want to get to this.

I just posted the quote. And 18 explicitly cannot take them, which is why she said "this is dangerous, I have to end this now", which she does by cutting their costume so she doesn't actually have to fight them.

I can see it being interpreted multiple ways. The anime and old funk dub seemed to interpret it the way I did, but I do agree that doesn't make it right. I also think that Goten and Trunks were originally hyped up to be strong, but it seems now that was kind of almost retconned and now they are pretty much useless.

Piccolo outright forgot about the ROSAT's effects, I would be surprised if he was actually remembering it in this instance.

Piccolo forgetting about a place he spent a year of his life doing harsh training seems kind of strange, lol.

Well no, because Potara fusion is a lot stronger than the dance fusion. We've never seen a Potara fusion of Goten and Trunks.

It could have been considered stronger due to the longer time limit but I see your point.
In yo son Goku and his friends return Ssj Goku stopped a guy the kids had to go Gotenks against, which should be another indication they aren't near Goku/Vegeta level.
And can you really see Goten even standing a chance against Dabura like Gohan did?
If I were to high ball Goten and Trunks I would probably put them at semi perfect Cell tier, as that's enough to easily beat 18 and together be stronger than Piccolo, I don't see a reason to put them higher than that.