The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:59 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:48 pm

So in the 7 year gap, before the Buu Saga, we know that Teen Gohan got weaker than his Kid self from the Cell Saga. The question is, how much weaker?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:49 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:So in the 7 year gap, before the Buu Saga, we know that Teen Gohan got weaker than his Kid self from the Cell Saga. The question is, how much weaker?
He outperformed Dabra, who's comparable to the Cell who tooled Goku. He likely still leaps and bounds above what his father was by the Cell Games.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:54 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:So in the 7 year gap, before the Buu Saga, we know that Teen Gohan got weaker than his Kid self from the Cell Saga. The question is, how much weaker?
Given that the Daizenshuu said he didn't got that much weaker and only lost what would be the rage boosts, then I'd say he didn't lose that much power at all, he only got rusty and lacked more skills, as well as his rage boosts. Also considering that SSJ Gohan is stronger than Kaioshin, who is dimensions above Piccolo (who at this point would have to be around the same tier of a Cell Jr after 7 years of training), then Gohan should still be pretty high in terms of strenght. All of that means that he would still be stronger than Cell Games SSJ Goku.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:10 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:So in the 7 year gap, before the Buu Saga, we know that Teen Gohan got weaker than his Kid self from the Cell Saga. The question is, how much weaker?
Given that the Daizenshuu said he didn't got that much weaker and only lost what would be the rage boosts, then I'd say he didn't lose that much power at all, he only got rusty and lacked more skills, as well as his rage boosts. Also considering that SSJ Gohan is stronger than Kaioshin, who is dimensions above Piccolo (who at this point would have to be around the same tier of a Cell Jr after 7 years of training), then Gohan should still be pretty high in terms of strenght. All of that means that he would still be stronger than Cell Games SSJ Goku.
I'm not sure about that. Goku was strong enough to actually push Cell and Toriyama admitted if it wasn't for the plot whole he made, then Goku would of flat out beat Cell since he blew his head off with his regen core. Ssj Goku did better than ssj Gohan against Cell as well. You are also speculating Piccolo's strength. Technically there is no proof he even surpassed imperfect Cell post absorption.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:34 pm

dragon boss z wrote:I'm not sure about that. Goku was strong enough to actually push Cell and Toriyama admitted if it wasn't for the plot whole he made, then Goku would of flat out beat Cell since he blew his head off with his regen core. Ssj Goku did better than ssj Gohan against Cell as well. You are also speculating Piccolo's strength. Technically there is no proof he even surpassed imperfect Cell post absorption.
Tbf Goku charged the hell out of that Kamehameha and caught Cell of guard, so not really.
And Gohan's performance was far, far better than Goku's. Goku wasn't doing much better than Handsome Zarbon did against Vegeta, whereas Cell couldn't land a finger on Gohan and had to increase his speed, but still failed to do anything besides cosmetic damage.
dragonball0900 wrote:Given that the Daizenshuu said he didn't got that much weaker and only lost what would be the rage boosts, then I'd say he didn't lose that much power at all, he only got rusty and lacked more skills, as well as his rage boosts. Also considering that SSJ Gohan is stronger than Kaioshin, who is dimensions above Piccolo (who at this point would have to be around the same tier of a Cell Jr after 7 years of training), then Gohan should still be pretty high in terms of strenght. All of that means that he would still be stronger than Cell Games SSJ Goku.
I'm not sure if the Daizenshuu can be taken at value here. Vegeta is at worst slightly weaker than Kid Gohan but thinks Teen Gohan is horse shit. Not to mention nothing implies Piccolo is actually reaching a Cell Jr. He may have not even reached Initial Semi Cell. He's definitely at least #16 level though.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:21 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: And Gohan's performance was far, far better than Goku's.
Ummm I think you need to re read the fights. Gohan literally only landed one blow and got beat up the rest of the time. The fight also only lasted 2 chapters while Goku's fight lasted 6.
Goku wasn't doing much better than Handsome Zarbon did against Vegeta,
Handsome Zarbon fought Vegeta for 6 chapters straight?
whereas Cell couldn't land a finger on Gohan and had to increase his speed,
Cell didn't power up though, he just decided to mess around. Like lets say he was at 80% power. He just decided to use his full 80% power speed.
Even after he had to go faster against Gohan he told Goku to fight him again, which means even after speeding up he though Goku was better than Gohan, so that really isn't a good argument. If Cell accpeted Gohan was better at that point you would be right, but he didn't. Most likely the full speed he used on Gohan was the full speed he was using on Goku.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
but still failed to do anything besides cosmetic damage.
That's all he did to Goku as well.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:22 am

dragon boss z wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:So in the 7 year gap, before the Buu Saga, we know that Teen Gohan got weaker than his Kid self from the Cell Saga. The question is, how much weaker?
Given that the Daizenshuu said he didn't got that much weaker and only lost what would be the rage boosts, then I'd say he didn't lose that much power at all, he only got rusty and lacked more skills, as well as his rage boosts. Also considering that SSJ Gohan is stronger than Kaioshin, who is dimensions above Piccolo (who at this point would have to be around the same tier of a Cell Jr after 7 years of training), then Gohan should still be pretty high in terms of strenght. All of that means that he would still be stronger than Cell Games SSJ Goku.
I'm not sure about that. Goku was strong enough to actually push Cell and Toriyama admitted if it wasn't for the plot whole he made, then Goku would of flat out beat Cell since he blew his head off with his regen core. Ssj Goku did better than ssj Gohan against Cell as well. You are also speculating Piccolo's strength. Technically there is no proof he even surpassed imperfect Cell post absorption.
Gohan watched Goku fight and basically thought he was weak as shit. He couldn't understand why everyone was so impressed by Goku's power. Like Goku said, he was comparing his power to his own

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:45 am

AvatarReiko wrote: Gohan watched Goku fight and basically thought he was weak as shit. He couldn't understand why everyone was so impressed by Goku's power. Like Goku said, he was comparing his power to his own
He didn't think Goku was weak, he thought Goku wasn't at full power. In Gohan's mind he thought his dad was much stronger than him, but he actually wasn't. They are most likely around the same strength when Gohan isn't mad. Maybe Gohan is a bit stronger but he isn't nearly as good as a fighter and would almost certainly lose. After testing Gohan Cell said he wanted to fight Goku again, implying Goku was the better match. Look above for the scan.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:14 am

dragon boss z wrote: Ummm I think you need to re read the fights. Gohan literally only landed one blow and got beat up the rest of the time. The fight also only lasted 2 chapters while Goku's fight lasted 6.
I just reread them. Cell deals with Goku on a similiar way Vegeta dealed with Zarbon: He blitzes him and smacks him around a bit. On the other hand, Gohan dodged everything Cell tried.
Handsome Zarbon fought Vegeta for 6 chapters straight?
The length is irrevelant because Zarbon transformed as soon as he could. The peak of the fight was for only two chapters (205-206) as before neither of them were at their best (Before it was the warm up, after Cell was fatigued by the regeneration). The two chapters of the fight's peak didn't show Goku performing well:
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Cell landed four from the six blows he tried, whereas Goku only landed one from the three he tried.
Cell didn't power up though, he just decided to mess around. Like lets say he was at 80% power. He just decided to use his full 80% power speed.
Even after he had to go faster against Gohan he told Goku to fight him again, which means even after speeding up he though Goku was better than Gohan, so that really isn't a good argument. If Cell accpeted Gohan was better at that point you would be right, but he didn't. Most likely the full speed he used on Gohan was the full speed he was using on Goku.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Cell would clearly hold his speed back against Goku. Goku was barely able to keep up with that Cell, a even faster one would instantly KO Goku and he wouldn't even it coming. There's no reason to assume he held back on Gohan initally, considering Cell admited Gohan was stronger than Goku.
That's all he did to Goku as well.
Differece being: He had to exercise himself more against Gohan.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:17 am

dragon boss z wrote: I'm not sure about that. Goku was strong enough to actually push Cell and Toriyama admitted if it wasn't for the plot whole he made, then Goku would of flat out beat Cell since he blew his head off with his regen core. Ssj Goku did better than ssj Gohan against Cell as well. You are also speculating Piccolo's strength. Technically there is no proof he even surpassed imperfect Cell post absorption.
The story clearly says that Gohan would've done pretty much everything Goku did against Cell, and even better. Then we have Cell increasing his speed against Gohan, and Gohan tanking hits that Cell made that were very dangerous to Goku. Not to mention that everyone where shocked of Gohan's strength.

As for Piccolo, he held his own against the Cell Jrs, who are equal to SSJ Vegeta post 2nd ROSAT. Imperfect Cell would never do that and would end up pretty much the same as the humans.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: I'm not sure if the Daizenshuu can be taken at value here. Vegeta is at worst slightly weaker than Kid Gohan but thinks Teen Gohan is horse shit. Not to mention nothing implies Piccolo is actually reaching a Cell Jr. He may have not even reached Initial Semi Cell. He's definitely at least #16 level though.
Then maybe Vegeta is stronger than Kid Gohan? I mean, Vegeta is weaker than Kid Gohan with his rage boosts that's for sure, but what about normal Kid Gohan? There's nothing that contradicts that he surpassed him. I can see Gohan (Buu) < Gohan (Cell) < Vegeta (Buu) < Angry Gohan (Cell) with no problem.

As for Piccolo, he was clearly holding his own against the Cell Jr. Android 16 would never do that since he was stomped by Semi Perfect Cell with a simple kick, and ASSJ Vegeta was playing with him. Then Initial Perfect Cell toyed with that ASSJ Vegeta, and then SSJ Vegeta after the second ROSAT would defeat that Cell, that Vegeta is equal to the Cell Jr. Piccolo was not able to fight the Cell Jr, but at least he wasn't stomped at all like the humans.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:26 am

dragonball0900 wrote: Then maybe Vegeta is stronger than Kid Gohan? I mean, Vegeta is weaker than Kid Gohan with his rage boosts that's for sure, but what about normal Kid Gohan? There's nothing that contradicts that he surpassed him. I can see Gohan (Buu) < Gohan (Cell) < Vegeta (Buu) < Angry Gohan (Cell) with no problem.
Yeah, it's possible. I don't think Gohan had a rage boost during the Cell Games, but that definitely works.
As for Piccolo, he was clearly holding his own against the Cell Jr. Android 16 would never do that since he was stomped by Semi Perfect Cell with a simple kick, and ASSJ Vegeta was playing with him. Then Initial Perfect Cell toyed with that ASSJ Vegeta, and then SSJ Vegeta after the second ROSAT would defeat that Cell, that Vegeta is equal to the Cell Jr. Piccolo was not able to fight the Cell Jr, but at least he wasn't stomped at all like the humans.
Cell defeated 16 with a blast btw.

The fact Piccolo wasn't stomped doesn't mean much. The Cell Jrs were toying, as evidences by the fact that the earthlings and Goku weren't killed or put down respectively after multiple blows and the fact Cell acknowledged so. Piccolo could've just got back on his feet by that panel for all we now.

You know, judging a fight off a panel is the reason Trunks thought Vegeta was on pair with 18.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:20 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Cell would clearly hold his speed back against Goku. Goku was barely able to keep up with that Cell, a even faster one would instantly KO Goku and he wouldn't even it coming. There's no reason to assume he held back on Gohan initally, considering Cell admited Gohan was stronger than Goku.
Like I said, after speeding up against Gohan Cell still thought Goku was more of a challenge as the scan I posted was post speed up. You are just assuming he started with the same speed as he did against Goku and then speed up. And I just read through the fight and I don't remember Cell once saying Gohan was stronger. If he did could you post the scan?
dragonball0900 wrote: The story clearly says that Gohan would've done pretty much everything Goku did against Cell, and even better.
With an anger boost, yes.
Then we have Cell increasing his speed against Gohan, and Gohan tanking hits that Cell made that were very dangerous to Goku. Not to mention that everyone where shocked of Gohan's strength.
As the scan I already posted shows, Cell even after post speed up, thought Goku was the better fighter since even post speed up he said stop with the games and asked to fight Goku again. Maybe Gohan was stronger and faster, but what he showed to Cell wasn't it. However it is highly possible Gohan is stronger but mentally holding himself back. If anything that is probably it.
As for Piccolo, he held his own against the Cell Jrs, who are equal to SSJ Vegeta post 2nd ROSAT. Imperfect Cell would never do that and would end up pretty much the same as the humans.
Didn't Cell ask the Cell jr.'s to hold back? But ya thinking about that I do think that is enough to prove Piccolo is at least semi perfect Cell level.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:09 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Like I said, after speeding up against Gohan Cell still thought Goku was more of a challenge as the scan I posted was post speed up. You are just assuming he started with the same speed as he did against Goku and then speed up. And I just read through the fight and I don't remember Cell once saying Gohan was stronger. If he did could you post the scan?
He doesn't outright says it, but Goku says Gohan is stronger than both of them and Cell says Goku is right, except for Gohan being stronger than him (Cell).

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Herms:
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Goku also told Gohan he'd make him stronger than him in the Rosat:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P8.3-5
Context: as Goku and Gohan start training in the Room of Spirit and Time
Gohan: “Dad, am I going to get in the way of your training?”
Goku: “At first, yeah. But once you’re able to become a Super Saiyan, you’ll really come in handy as a training partner, Gohan. That’s my ideal, anyway. Obviously I intend to obtain power surpassing Super Saiyan. I want to be stronger than anyone, after all. But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me.

Didn't Cell ask the Cell jr.'s to hold back? But ya thinking about that I do think that is enough to prove Piccolo is at least semi perfect Cell level.
Actually he only said the Jrs to stop holding back if they want to:
Image

It's important to note Gohan went berserk two pages later.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:34 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: He doesn't outright says it, but Goku says Gohan is stronger than both of them and Cell says Goku is right, except for Gohan being stronger than him (Cell).

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Herms:
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Goku also told Gohan he'd make him stronger than him in the Rosat:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P8.3-5
Context: as Goku and Gohan start training in the Room of Spirit and Time
Gohan: “Dad, am I going to get in the way of your training?”
Goku: “At first, yeah. But once you’re able to become a Super Saiyan, you’ll really come in handy as a training partner, Gohan. That’s my ideal, anyway. Obviously I intend to obtain power surpassing Super Saiyan. I want to be stronger than anyone, after all. But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me.
Ya but Cell said that because he realized Gohan's power wasn't a joke, and later on it was stated multiple times that the power Goku was betting on was Gohan's rage power, not his normal power. Gohan's normal power is definitely in Goku's league, and maybe a bit above, but if they fought Goku would most likely win due to being a better fighter and Gohan mentally holding back.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:18 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Cell defeated 16 with a blast btw.

The fact Piccolo wasn't stomped doesn't mean much. The Cell Jrs were toying, as evidences by the fact that the earthlings and Goku weren't killed or put down respectively after multiple blows and the fact Cell acknowledged so. Piccolo could've just got back on his feet by that panel for all we now.

You know, judging a fight off a panel is the reason Trunks thought Vegeta was on pair with 18.
Well it was still just a blast anyway.

The Cell Jrs were toying yes, but if that's the case then they would've stomped Piccolo just like how they stomped the humans, the gap between a Cell Jr and Semi Perfect Cell is very large. Goku was tired, but he was still stomped, surely a tired Goku wouldn't be just a 1/10 of his power right, or even 1/5? I put tired Goku at 1/3 his full power, with Piccolo surpassing that. Then we have that page where everyone were shown, all 3 Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo were standing, while Goku and the earthlings were there on the floor. I really, seriously doubt that Semi Perfect Cell would be standing against a Cell Jr. Maybe ASSJ Vegeta but barely.

Then we have that Piccolo was already stronger than the SSJs before the ROSAT, surely after a second ROSAT he would be pretty much come out still stronger than them (before the 2nd ROSAT). With my numbers and using the same boosts for the 1st ROSAT training for both Vegeta and Piccolo, the latter comes up just a bit stronger than ASSJ Vegeta, and I'm really fine with that, I mean, the only direct statement for Piccolo's power in the Cell Games is that he is still below Initial Perfect Cell (the one who stomped ASSJ Vegeta), so I can say that Piccolo is stronger than ASSJ Vegeta but weaker than Initial Perfect Cell, much closer to the former though.
dragon boss z wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote: The story clearly says that Gohan would've done pretty much everything Goku did against Cell, and even better.
With an anger boost, yes.
Then we have Cell increasing his speed against Gohan, and Gohan tanking hits that Cell made that were very dangerous to Goku. Not to mention that everyone where shocked of Gohan's strength.
As the scan I already posted shows, Cell even after post speed up, thought Goku was the better fighter since even post speed up he said stop with the games and asked to fight Goku again. Maybe Gohan was stronger and faster, but what he showed to Cell wasn't it. However it is highly possible Gohan is stronger but mentally holding himself back. If anything that is probably it.
As for Piccolo, he held his own against the Cell Jrs, who are equal to SSJ Vegeta post 2nd ROSAT. Imperfect Cell would never do that and would end up pretty much the same as the humans.
Didn't Cell ask the Cell jr.'s to hold back? But ya thinking about that I do think that is enough to prove Piccolo is at least semi perfect Cell level.
You forgot that after Cell told Goku to fight again, Gohan appeared pretty much unhurted, surprising Cell. What happened is that Gohan was stronger than Goku at the time, only that he didn't want to fight, but his ki was still stronger than Goku. Cell even stated and admitted that Goku was right when he said that Gohan was stronger than him, the only problem was Gohan's lack of wanting to fight. So yeah, he would mentally holding himself back, but his strength was already surpassing Goku so we can both agree in that.

As for Piccolo, what I wrote above is the answer, I seriously doubt that Semi Perfect Cell would stand against a Cell Jr like how Piccolo did.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:40 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: You forgot that after Cell told Goku to fight again, Gohan appeared pretty much unhurted, surprising Cell. What happened is that Gohan was stronger than Goku at the time, only that he didn't want to fight, but his ki was still stronger than Goku. Cell even stated and admitted that Goku was right when he said that Gohan was stronger than him, the only problem was Gohan's lack of wanting to fight. So yeah, he would mentally holding himself back, but his strength was already surpassing Goku so we can both agree in that.
Cell said there was some truth to what Goku said, but he never flat out said Gohan was stronger. He very well could of though, but if he was it must of at least been pretty close.
As for Piccolo, what I wrote above is the answer, I seriously doubt that Semi Perfect Cell would stand against a Cell Jr like how Piccolo did.
Ya, I agree.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Onibaku » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Yurin versus Chichi in her youth?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by MainJPW » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:49 pm

Onibaku wrote:Yurin versus Chichi in her youth?
Chi Chi should stomp.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by kn83 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:07 pm

Base Vegito (Black arc) vs SSJB Goku (ToP)

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