The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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dragon boss z
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:32 pm

supercat wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
supercat wrote:
What happened to not responding to my posts?

Either way, I guess SSJ2 Gohan keeping up with a new-and-improved Ultimate Gohan doesn't mean much since some people like to dismiss Copy Vegeta absolutely putting SSJ3 Gotenks in his place. But oh wait, a for fun sparring match between SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan is all the more accurate way of gauging power.

I love how you use words like "no way" and "incorrect" when this is a discussion thread based on opinions and speculations gathered after going over statements and feats. Yeah, no way I'm going to waste time debating with someone who doesn't have an open minded approach.


Given the openly provocative nature of your post(s) and their specific claims, I felt like trying to make you understand your premises don't really hold up under minimum scrutiny. Plus, I don't think they jibe that well within a post with a clear, if not a tad juvenile, "j'accuse" towards everyone who doesn't share your ideas.

With that being said, the nature of the sparring match is completely irrelevant, since it's not even tangential to my argument: Gohan needs at bare minimum to be above base Goku regardless for the mere reason base Goku transforms to face him. The consequence of your argument is that Goku (1) turns Super Saiyan (50) to increase his power and drops to below-base levels (0,1). He could've lowered his power level in base; and the reason he turned Super Saiyan was obviously not to decrease his strength.

Secondly, Goku can obviously be above SS3 Gotenks - assuming Gotenks didn't regress in power, which we're arbitrarily excluding - and inferior to Ultimate Gohan. Hence, the above is not an irrepairable contradiction. Gohan's power has already been directly stated to be inferior to that; unlike Goku not simply suppressing himself, but behaving irrationally. In any way, Gohan-Buu would simply be above base Goku in any other case.

To reiterate: yes, you are "almost surely" incorrect. If the characters are rational, which is really a natural premise whenever you discuss this kind of stuff in general, you can promptly eliminate the "almost surely".


You can cut the pretentious nonsense out and still debate. There's really no harm in doing so. Plus, I would look into what some of those things you're saying actually means before throwing it around so casually. Otherwise it just sounds silly and again, pretentious. And I'm not the one who responds to every post that I disagree with a lengthy, passive aggressive blurb of jargon that most people probably barely bother skimming through, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it that disappointing to you that Buu is left behind in the dust?


Lol you just described your own post. I'm not sure if you realized it, but you have been responding to two people. A lot of things you say to him sound like they were supposed to be directed at me. And why does everyone who has a different opinion have an alterior motive?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby supercat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:50 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
supercat wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
Given the openly provocative nature of your post(s) and their specific claims, I felt like trying to make you understand your premises don't really hold up under minimum scrutiny. Plus, I don't think they jibe that well within a post with a clear, if not a tad juvenile, "j'accuse" towards everyone who doesn't share your ideas.

With that being said, the nature of the sparring match is completely irrelevant, since it's not even tangential to my argument: Gohan needs at bare minimum to be above base Goku regardless for the mere reason base Goku transforms to face him. The consequence of your argument is that Goku (1) turns Super Saiyan (50) to increase his power and drops to below-base levels (0,1). He could've lowered his power level in base; and the reason he turned Super Saiyan was obviously not to decrease his strength.

Secondly, Goku can obviously be above SS3 Gotenks - assuming Gotenks didn't regress in power, which we're arbitrarily excluding - and inferior to Ultimate Gohan. Hence, the above is not an irrepairable contradiction. Gohan's power has already been directly stated to be inferior to that; unlike Goku not simply suppressing himself, but behaving irrationally. In any way, Gohan-Buu would simply be above base Goku in any other case.

To reiterate: yes, you are "almost surely" incorrect. If the characters are rational, which is really a natural premise whenever you discuss this kind of stuff in general, you can promptly eliminate the "almost surely".


You can cut the pretentious nonsense out and still debate. There's really no harm in doing so. Plus, I would look into what some of those things you're saying actually means before throwing it around so casually. Otherwise it just sounds silly and again, pretentious. And I'm not the one who responds to every post that I disagree with a lengthy, passive aggressive blurb of jargon that most people probably barely bother skimming through, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it that disappointing to you that Buu is left behind in the dust?

So by your logic, Goku going SSJ and SSB against Krillin was because he needed to right? You see how open-ended that whole argument is?


The episode of Krillin vs. Goku already gives you a clear reason: Goku went Blue against Krillin because he wanted to show off the form and test Krillin's resolve. Plus, we already have additional evidence that clarifies that Krillin can't even fight against base Gohan in the very episode; Goku's going Blue and lowering is power is easily inferrable and a way to solve what would otherwise be a contradiction.

Unless you have evidence that gives Goku a clear narrative or logical reason to do the same against Gohan, however, it's just counter-intuitive - other than technically baseless - to argue that Goku turned Super Saiyan for similar reasons.
Furthermore, since Gohan's and Goku's feats also bodes well with Buu defeating an opponent Goku can't exactly fingerpoke, it only makes your argument that Goku needs to astonishly higher than Buu and Basil even more of a backbreaking labor. The intent of the writers is pretty easy to deduce: even if Gohan is not as strong as Goku, he can at least keep up with the current Super Saiyan Goku.

Besides, if you want to veer towards a "this case simply doesn't make sense" conclusion, one may as well go and state the same for Gotenks vs. Vegeta -- that one is the outlier, because everything else is much easier to reconcile.

P.S. I only see a load of passive-aggressiveness and in your posts; while trying to lead your interlocutor into some more petty "pot meet kettle" jab is a remarkable tactic to try and troll whoever is opposing your argument, it usually works well only if you add actual substance to your posts in the form of a logical argument. In turn, it's barely effective when anyone who's reading this exchange will inevitably get the impression you're the one getting increasingly flustered.


I guess we can just forget about Base Gohan > Piccolo and Base Vegeta >>> Tagoma right? Yeah, no point in debating with you. The cherrypicking gave me a good laugh, but it's really not contributing much to this discussion.

Everything makes perfect sense between SSJ3 Gotenks and Base Vegeta. I believe it was something called training with Whis, which had apparently turned Vegeta into a mountain of power he could only dream of back in the Buu saga?

You're not fooling anyone with your going above and beyond to glamorize your posts with fancy wording. A bit atypical for a forum poster, but hey, a few chuckles here and there brighten up the day. Oh and the constant editing done in many of your posts, well that doesn't help refute against it either.

And why would I get flustered over a children's cartoon? I find it funny you're even bringing that up. So perhaps it isn't me that's flustered after all eh?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby supercat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:54 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
supercat wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
Given the openly provocative nature of your post(s) and their specific claims, I felt like trying to make you understand your premises don't really hold up under minimum scrutiny. Plus, I don't think they jibe that well within a post with a clear, if not a tad juvenile, "j'accuse" towards everyone who doesn't share your ideas.

With that being said, the nature of the sparring match is completely irrelevant, since it's not even tangential to my argument: Gohan needs at bare minimum to be above base Goku regardless for the mere reason base Goku transforms to face him. The consequence of your argument is that Goku (1) turns Super Saiyan (50) to increase his power and drops to below-base levels (0,1). He could've lowered his power level in base; and the reason he turned Super Saiyan was obviously not to decrease his strength.

Secondly, Goku can obviously be above SS3 Gotenks - assuming Gotenks didn't regress in power, which we're arbitrarily excluding - and inferior to Ultimate Gohan. Hence, the above is not an irrepairable contradiction. Gohan's power has already been directly stated to be inferior to that; unlike Goku not simply suppressing himself, but behaving irrationally. In any way, Gohan-Buu would simply be above base Goku in any other case.

To reiterate: yes, you are "almost surely" incorrect. If the characters are rational, which is really a natural premise whenever you discuss this kind of stuff in general, you can promptly eliminate the "almost surely".


You can cut the pretentious nonsense out and still debate. There's really no harm in doing so. Plus, I would look into what some of those things you're saying actually means before throwing it around so casually. Otherwise it just sounds silly and again, pretentious. And I'm not the one who responds to every post that I disagree with a lengthy, passive aggressive blurb of jargon that most people probably barely bother skimming through, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it that disappointing to you that Buu is left behind in the dust?


Lol you just described your own post. I'm not sure if you realized it, but you have been responding to two people. A lot of things you say to him sound like they were supposed to be directed at me. And why does everyone who has a different opinion have an alterior motive?


What's wrong with responding to two people? It's a discussion thread. I was going to stop responding to you since it'll just be a huge time waster of going in circles and there's really no point in discussions, but this is a new discussion that I felt deserved separate attention. And I'm pretty sure I remember you responding to quite a few of my posts regarding power. I also seem to recall you bringing in real life strength progressions into a cartoon power level discussion.

Oh and I don't know what this alterior motive you speak of is. I believe the correct term is ulterior motive? I mean do you even know what that means? Judging by how you used it, I feel you don't.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby LowRyder2005 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:03 pm

supercat wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
supercat wrote:
You can cut the pretentious nonsense out and still debate. There's really no harm in doing so. Plus, I would look into what some of those things you're saying actually means before throwing it around so casually. Otherwise it just sounds silly and again, pretentious. And I'm not the one who responds to every post that I disagree with a lengthy, passive aggressive blurb of jargon that most people probably barely bother skimming through, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it that disappointing to you that Buu is left behind in the dust?

So by your logic, Goku going SSJ and SSB against Krillin was because he needed to right? You see how open-ended that whole argument is?


The episode of Krillin vs. Goku already gives you a clear reason: Goku went Blue against Krillin because he wanted to show off the form and test Krillin's resolve. Plus, we already have additional evidence that clarifies that Krillin can't even fight against base Gohan in the very episode; Goku's going Blue and lowering is power is easily inferrable and a way to solve what would otherwise be a contradiction.

Unless you have evidence that gives Goku a clear narrative or logical reason to do the same against Gohan, however, it's just counter-intuitive - other than technically baseless - to argue that Goku turned Super Saiyan for similar reasons.
Furthermore, since Gohan's and Goku's feats also bodes well with Buu defeating an opponent Goku can't exactly fingerpoke, it only makes your argument that Goku needs to astoningshly higher than Buu and Basil even more of a backbreaking labor. The intent of the writers is pretty easy to deduce: even if Gohan is not as strong as Goku, he can at least keep up with the current Super Saiyan Goku.

Besides, if you want to veer towards a "this case simply doesn't make sense" conclusion, one may as well go and state the same for Gotenks vs. Vegeta -- that one is the outlier, because everything else is much easier to reconcile.

P.S. I only see a load of passive-aggressiveness and in your posts; while trying to lead your interlocutor into some more petty "pot meet kettle" jab is a remarkable tactic to try and troll your "verbal opponent", it usually works well only if you add actual substance to your posts in the form of a logical argument. In turn, it's barely effective when anyone who's reading this exchange will inevitably get the impression you're the one getting increasingly flustered.


I guess we can just forget about Base Gohan > Piccolo and Base Vegeta >>> Tagoma right? Yeah, no point in debating with you. The cherrypicking gave me a good laugh, but it's really not contributing much to this discussion.

Everything makes perfect sense between SSJ3 Gotenks and Base Vegeta. I believe it was something called training with Whis, which had apparently turned Vegeta into a mountain of power he could only dream of back in the Buu saga?


Again, this is irrelevant. There's nothing actually suggesting or referencing base Gohan as unambiguously possessing raw power superior to Piccolo's: I believe you're also probably forgetting that Piccolo gets his blows tanked and his arm ripped off by a serious Tagoma, while Gohan lasts five second (before being ridiculed for his supposedly measly power) by a Tagoma-Ginyu who's testing his body and generally clowning his opponents. In more general terms, everyone is quite tired and Piccolo had his weights all the time. There's no way to gauge everyone's power in definitive terms.

Also, although Gohan is stated to be the most troublesome of the bunch, it wouldn't be the first time people are able to feel someone's dormant power (it happened with Ginyu aptly guessing Goku's suppressed power, same for Dabra and base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan).
If the argument doesn't satisfy you, even though there's really nothing directly contradicting it, I could also think that the base Gohan in question is channeling some of his Ultimate power.

Whis' training also doesn't need to turn Goku or Vegeta into actual gods, they could simply have increased their power two or three times, which would be by all means an incredible increase already. #18 is already implied to possess strength far superior to Goku's. Again, it's yet another occasion where the pieces would fit much more easily.
Although most of the occurences here and there can easily be justified through the characters getting much weaker in general, I'm rather inclined to think that the writers quietly retconned the super-powerful base, and that the "Saiyan Beyond God" can only be rationalized in-universe by virtue of being a separate state that Goku and Vegeta simply stopped using. Besides, it still wouldn't help rationalizing Goku vs. Gohan regardless -- which still doesn't make sense unless Super Saiyan Gohan is relative to at least base Goku.
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:12 pm

supercat wrote:What's wrong with responding to two people? It's a discussion thread.


Nothing, I just wasn't sure you realized because you told me to not respond, but then told the other guy you said it to him, unless you said it to both of us.


I also seem to recall you bringing in real life strength progressions into a cartoon power level discussion.


I said the longer you train in the same way the slower your progress is, so you can't just assume dragon ball characters keep getting exponentially stronger. The only time that seems to happen is when they find a new form of training. There are in universe statements that proves this as well, such as Vegeta saying he thinks they won't get much stronger from training in the hyperbolic time chamber.

Oh and I don't know what this alterior motive you speak of is. I believe the correct term is ulterior motive? I mean do you even know what that means? Judging by how you used it, I feel you don't.


You are saying we are making this argument because we want Buu to stay relevant and that we are Buu fanboys. Ya, I meant ulterior motive, but I did use it in a correct way.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby supercat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:36 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:Again, this is irrelevant. There's nothing actually suggesting or referencing base Gohan as unambiguously possessing raw power superior to Piccolo's: I believe you're also probably forgetting that Piccolo gets his blows tanked and his arm ripped off by a serious Tagoma, while Gohan lasts five second (before being ridiculed for his supposedly measly power) by a Tagoma-Ginyu who's testing his body and generally clowning his opponents. In more general terms, everyone is quite tired and Piccolo had his weights all the time. There's no way to gauge everyone's power in definitive terms.

Also, although Gohan is stated to be the most troublesome of the bunch, it wouldn't be the first time people are able to feel someone's dormant power (it happened with Ginyu aptly guessing Goku's suppressed power, same for Dabra and base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan).
If the argument doesn't satisfy you, even though there's really nothing directly contradicting it, I could also think that the base Gohan in question is channeling some of his Ultimate power.

Whis' training also doesn't need to turn Goku or Vegeta into actual gods, they could simply have increased their power two or three times, which would be by all means an incredible increase already. #18 is already implied to possess strength far superior to Goku's. Again, it's yet another occasion where the pieces would fit much more easily.
Although most of the occurences here and there can easily be justified through the characters getting much weaker in general, I'm rather inclined to think that the writers quietly retconned the super-powerful base, and that the "Saiyan Beyond God" can only be rationalized in-universe by virtue of being a separate state that Goku and Vegeta simply stopped using. Besides, it still wouldn't help rationalizing Goku vs. Gohan regardless -- which still doesn't make sense unless Super Saiyan Gohan is relative to at least base Goku.


Feat-wise nothing suggests Gohan > Piccolo, but statements say otherwise. It was first noted by Frieza in RoF, and by Tagoma in Super. There's really no point in dropping names unless it's to give some indication on the power scale. At one point I thought Base Saiyans > Namek Frieza, but after what Beerus said, I immediately changed my stance on that. Maybe Piccolo was suppressing himself lower on the ship than the Base Saiyans were, but against the Frieza Force they were all fighting. Plus Tagoma said nothing after Piccolo powered up. He just ridiculed him as a weakling.

I really doubt Android 18 is stronger than Base Goku, unless she powered up a lot. Until we hear of something that actually suggest a retcon, it's hard for me to believe their bases got weaker. Android 18 only had one feat, which was picking up a guy who could control his weight. We have no real proof he was the same weight when he was on Goku. Other than that, we have Android 18 showing to be only slightly superior to Krillin, which wouldn't make sense if she was stronger than Base Goku, since Krillin was left Base Gohan unscathed, despite the sneak attacks.

Well I could say that the SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan could have been to hype Gohan up, much like how Goku went SSJ against Krillin. It's pretty open-ended and ambiguous.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby supercat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:39 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
supercat wrote:What's wrong with responding to two people? It's a discussion thread.


Nothing, I just wasn't sure you realized because you told me to not respond, but then told the other guy you said it to him, unless you said it to both of us.


I also seem to recall you bringing in real life strength progressions into a cartoon power level discussion.


I said the longer you train in the same way the slower your progress is, so you can't just assume dragon ball characters keep getting exponentially stronger. The only time that seems to happen is when they find a new form of training. There are in universe statements that proves this as well, such as Vegeta saying he thinks they won't get much stronger from training in the hyperbolic time chamber.

Oh and I don't know what this alterior motive you speak of is. I believe the correct term is ulterior motive? I mean do you even know what that means? Judging by how you used it, I feel you don't.


You are saying we are making this argument because we want Buu to stay relevant and that we are Buu fanboys. Ya, I meant ulterior motive, but I did use it in a correct way.


But the thing is, the plot determines power ups, and if a certain character is powered up and there are feats and statements indicating it, I find it pointless to try and debate otherwise just for the sake of it making sense.

Shisami in RoF was giving Piccolo a great fight, yet there was no mention of him training or getting stronger. It's odd and doesn't make much sense, but the plot sort of needed it I suppose. So at the end of the day I just took it as Shisami powering up. Because while that seems farfetched for some, it's not as farfetched as Piccolo suddenly falling to Zarbon-tier.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:17 pm

supercat wrote:But the thing is, the plot determines power ups, and if a certain character is powered up and there are feats and statements indicating it, I find it pointless to try and debate otherwise just for the sake of it making sense.


The characters are definitely getting stronger, I'm just saying it's to early to say 17 is blue tier. I can see him being above Buu, but some people are saying he is above RoF Frieza, which I highly doubt.

Shisami in RoF was giving Piccolo a great fight, yet there was no mention of him training or getting stronger. It's odd and doesn't make much sense, but the plot sort of needed it I suppose. So at the end of the day I just took it as Shisami powering up. Because while that seems farfetched for some, it's not as farfetched as Piccolo suddenly falling to Zarbon-tier.


This just comes down to the writers not knowing what they are doing. They don't seem to care much for power scaling and I'm pretty sure they forgot how strong Piccolo was. And they had Frieza say he would reach a power level of 1.3 million, even though in his second form he was already at a million. Even if he was just talking about his first form that number is extremely low and didn't make much sense. Also lets not forget the Frieza soldiers were giving the group some trouble and like 50 of them at once were eaten by a giant fish and they all gasped when Frieza destroyed a city.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby supercat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:24 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
supercat wrote:But the thing is, the plot determines power ups, and if a certain character is powered up and there are feats and statements indicating it, I find it pointless to try and debate otherwise just for the sake of it making sense.


The characters are definitely getting stronger, I'm just saying it's to early to say 17 is blue tier. I can see him being above Buu, but some people are saying he is above RoF Frieza, which I highly doubt.

Shisami in RoF was giving Piccolo a great fight, yet there was no mention of him training or getting stronger. It's odd and doesn't make much sense, but the plot sort of needed it I suppose. So at the end of the day I just took it as Shisami powering up. Because while that seems farfetched for some, it's not as farfetched as Piccolo suddenly falling to Zarbon-tier.


This just comes down to the writers not knowing what they are doing. They don't seem to care much for power scaling and I'm pretty sure they forgot how strong Piccolo was. And they had Frieza say he would reach a power level of 1.3 million, even though in his second form he was already at a million. Even if he was just talking about his first form that number is extremely low and didn't make much sense. Also lets not forget the Frieza soldiers were giving the group some trouble and like 50 of them at once were eaten by a giant fish and they all gasped when Frieza destroyed a city.


The thing is, if that were Android 17 at full power, it would be pretty clear he isn't SSB-tier. But that was a suppressed Android 17, and between him and SSB Goku, it looked like Goku was putting in more effort.

I don't quite have Android 17 above Golden Frieza (RoF), but I do have him leagues above Final Form Frieza (RoF), who I have leagues above any form of Buu.

I don't know what to say about the 1.3 million thing. But the Frieza Force showing fear when Frieza first destroyed the city could be because they actually got to see Frieza doing something other than sitting around giving orders. The sheer thought of Frieza must be frightening to them, so him actually unleashing an attack, big or small, was probably terrifying.

Goku was also eaten by a fish at the end of the Buu saga, and from what I remember he kinda had a hard time getting out. And that was also a smaller fish.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby pacz360 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:42 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
Base Goku was having problems in a 3v1. So at the very least 3 fat Buus would challenge base Goku.


It was implied that their "danger's triangle" made the combo more powerful than sum of the parts, i.e. more powerful than three Basils or three lavenders. Also, I believe they must have trained very hard for 40 hours and powered up a bit, atleast to about buu level.

Anyways, I don't disagree with three buu's being able to challenge goku thanks to their regeneration and stamina.

Noah wrote:- Strongest character Dr. Rota Hermilla can beat?

If he has good distance, he can beat Base vegeta.

pacz360 wrote:Ribrianne was no where serious fighting ssj Vegeta unlike with 17
17 situation that's puts him blue level is far different than krillin who almost got killed by suppressed ssjb Goku and roshi who base Goku stomped with ease 17 was beginning to stomp ssj Goku until went immediately to blue even stating to 17 didn't think I have to use this form and 17 isn't a idiot considering he can tell if Goku was holding back on him
Toppo traded blows with ssjb Goku and tanked his Kamehameha with ease
Not to mention he was pissed that his suit was torn than any bruises

Ribanne looked serious to me, just not burning with anger.
She never had even the slightest of advantage against SS vegeta. They were shown exact equals, same with #17 and Ribanne. And #17's no-nonsense attitute means it makes sense he wasn't holding back.

#18 kicked away SSB Goku's Kamehameha, and Krillin pushed it back for some time, forcing Goku to use more power, and Goku also went to SS then blue against Krillin.

Kale "tanked" his Kamehameha with ease, not toppo. Compare them side by side. And slightly weaker characters have been able to tank Goku's kamehameha before:

- Piccolo in 23rd TB
- Vegeta against kaioken x4 Goku
- Freeza (50%) against KaioKen x20 Goku (he was strong enough to rush in and punch Freeza before he could even react)
- Pieces of Freeza with no ki left vs SS Goku
- Fat Buu vs SS3 Goku
- Kale vs SSB Goku
- Hit vs KaioKen x10 SSB Goku
And even Bergamo who reached his absorption limit from SS Goku's punches, was able to resist SSBKK Goku's kamehameha.
Toppo has done nothing which even puts him on equal level to Goku / Vegeta / Freeza so far. He only has hype going for him.

And in Super, Goku has been a poor measuring stick. He goes on to go blow for blow with beerus in base (who, at his absolute minimum, was able to finger-poke-of-doom SS3 Goku, Ult Gohan and others) and forces him to power up even further, and then goes blow for blow with Master Roshi, thinking how "unbelievably strong" he is.
Then he copy vegeta absolutely murderstomps SS3 Gotenks who goku matches in base, and is even with SS Gohan in transformed state. The same SS Gohan who trais for several months, transformed into SS2 and is still weaker than Piccolo, who is at best, comparable to base Goku, and inferior to buu arc mystic gohan.

Krillin was smacked by base gohan pre training
Krillin even had to hide from ssj goku and had to rely on tactics for the ring out
Krillin was seconds from getting killed not to mention shaking while goku was fine of it
Ribrianne was again no where serious against vegeta she laughing her ass off during there brawl thatsvlike me saying magetta is equal to toppo despite being obvious he's not going all out
Ribrianne was pissed with 17 and had a reason to get serious while she was no where serious in her clash with vegeta it's obvious as light and day
17 was holding back in his fight against goku
Toppo traded blows with ssjb goku and kept up with him the fucker walked off pissed ssjb goku punches before engaging in high clash battle
The guy tanked his Kamehameha with only a torn suit some bruises while not even using his full power especially when goku himself felt the need to bring kaioken into the equation not mention the grand priest felt the need to stop the match cause either men could die if toppo wasn't around goku level then grand priest wouldn't have stop the match let alone goku would have no reason to seek him along with jiren out in the top
Kale walked through ssjb Kamehameha cause she that strong show me characters far below tiers tanking ssjb goku Kamehameha I'll wait...
Toppo fight with goku he's around goku tier and it's not just hype

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:46 pm

supercat wrote:but I do have him leagues above Final Form Frieza (RoF)


Hopefully we will get an answer to this soon.

Goku was also eaten by a fish at the end of the Buu saga, and from what I remember he kinda had a hard time getting out. And that was also a smaller fish.


If that happened it was filler, but to be fair the fish eating the soldiers didn't come from toriyama either.

And Jaco was able to one shot a shark as big if not bigger than that fish.


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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby supercat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:16 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
supercat wrote:but I do have him leagues above Final Form Frieza (RoF)


Hopefully we will get an answer to this soon.

Goku was also eaten by a fish at the end of the Buu saga, and from what I remember he kinda had a hard time getting out. And that was also a smaller fish.


If that happened it was filler, but to be fair the fish eating the soldiers didn't come from toriyama either.

And Jaco was able to one shot a shark as big if not bigger than that fish.



While anything is possible, I'd say it's quite difficult for Android 17 to be below Final Form Frieza at this point, seeing as how badly he outclassed SSJ Goku and how he gave SSB Goku a pretty good fight. Final Form Frieza was at best Base Goku-tier, so Android 17 should be able to win with a single attack. Even the suppressed version should be sufficient in accomplishing that though.

Yeah the fish scene was a bit random. Haha.

We don't know what Android 17's full potential is, which is the cool thing about him. He could be holding back large amounts of power for all we know. Final Form Frieza on the other hand needs to transform into Golden Frieza to tap into more power.

Golden Frieza should be able to defeat Android 17 after a moderately decent battle though. It wouldn't be an instant win, and one that he would definitely have to work for.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby dragon boss z » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:16 am

supercat wrote:While anything is possible, I'd say it's quite difficult for Android 17 to be below Final Form Frieza at this point, seeing as how badly he outclassed SSJ Goku and how he gave SSB Goku a pretty good fight. Final Form Frieza was at best Base Goku-tier, so Android 17 should be able to win with a single attack. Even the suppressed version should be sufficient in accomplishing that though.


It's possible Frieza was suppressed against Goku. When Goku went blue Frieza attacked him and it seemed like his speed caught Goku off guard, so he may of powered up a bit.

Final Form Frieza on the other hand needs to transform into Golden Frieza to tap into more power.


I wouldn't be that surprised if they brought back buff Frieza. They probably won't, but I could see him powering up that way.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby supercat » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:42 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
supercat wrote:While anything is possible, I'd say it's quite difficult for Android 17 to be below Final Form Frieza at this point, seeing as how badly he outclassed SSJ Goku and how he gave SSB Goku a pretty good fight. Final Form Frieza was at best Base Goku-tier, so Android 17 should be able to win with a single attack. Even the suppressed version should be sufficient in accomplishing that though.


It's possible Frieza was suppressed against Goku. When Goku went blue Frieza attacked him and it seemed like his speed caught Goku off guard, so he may of powered up a bit.

Final Form Frieza on the other hand needs to transform into Golden Frieza to tap into more power.


I wouldn't be that surprised if they brought back buff Frieza. They probably won't, but I could see him powering up that way.


I doubt Frieza was suppressed against Goku. Even if he was suppressed, he probably doesn't have a whole lot more to offer in that form.

His speed did catch Goku off guard a bit, but it's nothing compared to what Android 17 was able to pull off against an SSB Goku who had likely improved since RoF.

Like I said, I think Golden Frieza could defeat Android 17 after a really good fight, but I doubt Final Form Frieza could really do any lasting damage against Android 17.

Basically I see it as the following:

Golden Frieza (current) > Golden Frieza (RoF) > (by a little) Android 17 > Final Form Frieza

I could even see Android 17 doing pretty well against the RoF incarnations of SSB Goku / Vegeta. Although I'm not quite sure he'd win, I feel it could go either way. Keeping in mind, both Goku and Vegeta powered up a lot since RoF.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby Polyphase Avatron » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:14 pm

Jiren vs. Whis

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby Ki Breaker » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:32 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Jiren vs. Whis

Whis..
We are talking about surpassing berrus here for years, whis is the next step..

Alright,
Fresh battle, a new Powerpuff girl is announced and will be added to the team soon, this sparks some interest and nostalgia..

Strongest opponent from db the Powerpuff girls can beat.
1- Individually
2- As a team
sintzu wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:SSB is the past, Goku doesn't care about that form now.


Blue may be old but at least it helps Vegeta keep his arms.


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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby TheSaiyanGod » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:10 pm

Goku Black VS Goku (Saga Tournament of Power)
Goku Black VS Vegeta (Saga Tournament of Power)

1 year (or nearly so) has passed since the Future Trunks Saga and Goku / Vegeta have continued training since then, the two Saiyans could beat Black? (they are individual battles)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby ZombieVito » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:14 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Goku Black VS Goku (Saga Tournament of Power)
Goku Black VS Vegeta (Saga Tournament of Power)

1 year (or nearly so) has passed since the Future Trunks Saga and Goku / Vegeta have continued training since then, the two Saiyans could beat Black? (they are individual battles)


I have all 3 as equals. Goku could just fire up Kaioken and win easily but Vegeta will have a hard time.

New fights:

SSJ Gotenks [Post RoSaT] vs SSJ2 Vegeta [Majin]. Daizenshuu confirmed Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT but can the latter beat the former with his superior fighting skills and experience?

SSJ2 Gotenks vs Fat Boo [no magic or absorption's].

Pure Boo vs Evil Pure Boo. No magic or absorption's.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby dragonball0900 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:49 am

ZombieVito wrote:SSJ Gotenks [Post RoSaT] vs SSJ2 Vegeta [Majin]. Daizenshuu confirmed Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT but can the latter beat the former with his superior fighting skills and experience?

SSJ2 Gotenks vs Fat Boo [no magic or absorption's].

Pure Boo vs Evil Pure Boo. No magic or absorption's.

1. Considering how hyped they were in the manga for Gotenks to defeat Fat Buu and not Super Buu, I'd say that SSJ Gotenks is at least equal to Fat Buu, so the difference would be big between Gotenks and Vegeta, and the fight would be the same as Fat Buu vs Majin Vegeta but with Gotenks instead of Fat Buu.

2. If SSJ Gotenks is on par with Fat Buu, then SSJ2 Gotenks wins with a stomp.

3. Both Evil Pure Buu and Good Buu are stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta but weaker than Fat Buu since the power was split between them. Fat Buu is weaker than SSJ3 Goku, who is around Pure Buu's strenght. That means that Pure Buu wins this match, though the regeneration would do its game for and against him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Postby Zamasu55 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:40 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Jiren vs. Whis

Whis, of course.

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Goku Black VS Goku (Saga Tournament of Power)
Goku Black VS Vegeta (Saga Tournament of Power)

1 year (or nearly so) has passed since the Future Trunks Saga and Goku / Vegeta have continued training since then, the two Saiyans could beat Black? (they are individual battles)


At the start of the saga, both Goku and Vegeta got rusty. This means they're slightly weaker than their selves from the Future Trunks arc.

Regarding current Goku and Vegeta... I really don't know.
They might be stronger, but Black Goku can become stronger too during the fight.

I think Black takes both of these, honestly.


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