SSJ multiplier

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shonenhikada
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SSJ multiplier

Postby shonenhikada » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:18 am

In the Freeza saga we saw that Goku, when he fought with Freeza, was using the kai-o-ken x10 and there was no noticeable change in his appearance from the reader's point of view. He then used the kai-o-ken x20 to combat Freeza when he was 50% his maximum. Now here comes my theory: after using kai-o-ken x20, Goku's ki was said to have shrunk, he then began taking a beating from Freeza which would have lowered his PL even more. But the fact that he survived all this without dying indicates he was still using the kai-o-ken. Now Freeza gets hit by the spirit bomb, pops back out, kills Krillin, and Goku becomes a SSJ. The thing is, Goku could have still been using kai-o-ken x10 with the transformation, which would indicate the SSJ form only increases 5x that of base, which seems to hold true in the later arcs of the series. Also I don't believe Goku was at 150 million when fighting Freeza, because Piccolo commented that Goku's ki got smaller, and he also took that beating which would have reduced his base to below the 3 million mark. Which is why the fight with Freeza dragged on so long despite Freeza being at 120 million.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby hleV » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:04 am

Toriyama confirmed SSJ being a 50x multiplier.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Saiga » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:06 am

And being able to use KK10 with SS1 would make him way stronger than any of the other Saiyans.

He'd be, like, 10 times stronger...
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Mjb1985 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:14 pm

Well to be fair, Toriyama does mention that Super Saiyan was 50x at the time. Which seems to be like he was talking about the Freeza Saga specifically. Toriyama also said he pictured Super Saiyan as being a 10x boost. So depending on how you interpret his interview answers, one could take it in different ways. But Super Saiyan absolutely was 50x against Freeza.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Mystic Gohan » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:19 pm

AT said he wrote the manga with a 10x multiplier in mind, so that's what i think it is.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Mjb1985 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:23 pm

Yea that's what I mean. A good portion of the fandom goes by what Toriyama initially intended , and the other portion goes by what was forced by Toriyama's previous stipulation which forced SSJ to be a 50x multiplier.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Kaboom » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:29 pm

Toriyama's comment comes off more as one of resignation. It could be reworded as, "I didn't picture it as that big of a boost, but if that's what it turned out to be, oh well." Saying that Toriyama "originally intended" a 10x boost as if he had it planned and things were changed or portrayed against his will is reading too much into it, I think. That same pair of books from the interview (the SEGs) went on to reprint the Super Saiyan boost as quite definitively 50x, and I doubt that would be and continue to be the case if the original author actually had any objections to it.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Mystic Gohan » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:38 pm

Meh, i think AT had to go along with the 50x boost, because of the Daiz's PL's plus his approval of it. I still think he wrote the rest of it with a 10x multiplier.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Mjb1985 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:40 pm

Either way it shouldn't effect anything. I'm personally cool with either option.

And yes, Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre is still right in my book. Lol.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Bussani » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:18 pm

shonenhikada wrote:In the Freeza saga we saw that Goku, when he fought with Freeza, was using the kai-o-ken x10 and there was no noticeable change in his appearance from the reader's point of view.

Well, there sort of is. He does this right before Kaio mentions him using Kaioken x10:

Image

It's only the anime that adds in the stuff about him using Kaioken too quickly to be seen.

He then used the kai-o-ken x20 to combat Freeza when he was 50% his maximum. Now here comes my theory: after using kai-o-ken x20, Goku's ki was said to have shrunk, he then began taking a beating from Freeza which would have lowered his PL even more. But the fact that he survived all this without dying indicates he was still using the kai-o-ken. Now Freeza gets hit by the spirit bomb, pops back out, kills Krillin, and Goku becomes a SSJ. The thing is, Goku could have still been using kai-o-ken x10 with the transformation, which would indicate the SSJ form only increases 5x that of base, which seems to hold true in the later arcs of the series. Also I don't believe Goku was at 150 million when fighting Freeza, because Piccolo commented that Goku's ki got smaller, and he also took that beating which would have reduced his base to below the 3 million mark. Which is why the fight with Freeza dragged on so long despite Freeza being at 120 million.

Some other people have put forward this idea as well. It's possible that Goku wasn't at his best, but on the other hand, his fatigue seems to go away the moment he becomes a Super Saiyan, as though he's tapped into a new well of power that he didn't know about. Some people liken it to an adrenaline boost.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Hitiro » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:26 pm

It's been established that the SSJ form is a hard transformation to maintain with its own burdens and strains. I hardly think he would be using a strainful technique on top of a strainful transformation, despite this it would also be apparent that Goku would be the strongest SSJ all throughout the series because if he could use Kaioken on top of his SSJ form then Gohan and Vegeta will always be outclassed even if they might be slightly stronger in their base forms. But we know Gohan surpassed Goku in strength so that can't be the case.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Fox666 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:42 pm

Bussani wrote:Well, there sort of is. He does this right before Kaio mentions him using Kaioken x10:

Image

It's only the anime that adds in the stuff about him using Kaioken too quickly to be seen.

Actually Goku used the Kaio-ken some time before that, when he started to fight Freeza using only his legs.

Image

Of course it's entirely possible that Goku was using only the Kaio-ken times 2 at this point, there is no way to know.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Dabooyaka » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:22 pm

Why people over complicate some things is beyond me. AT said it was 50x, the Freeza saga shows us it was 50x, so as far as I am concerned, it stayed at 50x...

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Piccolo Daimao » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:04 pm

Dabooyaka wrote:Why people over complicate some things is beyond me. AT said it was 50x, the Freeza saga shows us it was 50x, so as far as I am concerned, it stayed at 50x...


Probably because of the whole kiri incident (which contributed to the "SS multiplier decreasing over time" theory). Or the whole Boo arc. Or because people like to make shit up to justify their personal battle power lists.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:06 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Probably because of the whole kiri incident (which contributed to the "SS multiplier decreasing over time" theory)

What incident?
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Piccolo Daimao » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:09 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Probably because of the whole kiri incident (which contributed to the "SS multiplier decreasing over time" theory)

What incident?


When Gokuu transforms into a Super Saiyan against Yakon, and Bobbodi reads his battle power off a kiri meter (akin to his brand of scouter) as 3,000 kiri, as opposed to Yakon's 800. If kiri converted 1:1 to battle power, then, going by the x50 multiplier, base Gokuu would be 600 kiri, yet he was able to hold his own against Yakon.

But the 800/3,000 kiri readings were more symbolic than anything, and since it's really just a throwaway scene, no-one knows exactly how the conversion rate of kiri to battle power anyway.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Rocketman » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:26 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:If kiri converted 1:1 to battle power


Celsius and Fahrenheit don't even convert 1:1...

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:31 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:When Gokuu transforms into a Super Saiyan against Yakon, and Bobbodi reads his battle power off a kiri meter (akin to his brand of scouter) as 3,000 kiri, as opposed to Yakon's 800. If kiri converted 1:1 to battle power, then, going by the x50 multiplier, base Gokuu would be 600 kiri, yet he was able to hold his own against Yakon.

Well, Goku is a Super Saiyan Full Power, not a normal Super Saiyan. His Super Saiyan form isn't just a multiplier anymore, since he can lower his battle power to, let's say, only 5 while on Super Saiyan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby Fox666 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:55 pm

He can make it even 1/100 if he want.

Goku not using all of his power is a reasonable explanation. Afterall according to Darbra that would not be enough to defeat him, despite a little later he was fighting enenly with Gohan who was weaker than Goku. Note: I don't want to disrail the thread with "what was Gohan form" subject.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Postby LiamKav » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:10 am

Rocketman wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:If kiri converted 1:1 to battle power


Celsius and Fahrenheit don't even convert 1:1...

°C = (°F - 32) / 1.8
Of course, we know that fahrenheit and celsius are measuring the exact same thing (temperature), but kiri and battle power could be measuring different things.


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