SSJ multiplier

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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:14 am

Rocketman wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:If kiri converted 1:1 to battle power
Celsius and Fahrenheit don't even convert 1:1...
Exactly. I don't believe in it either, since we're given no real basis for the conversion. It was just a throwaway scene that basically sums up to "Woah, this guy's much stronger than this guy".
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:When Gokuu transforms into a Super Saiyan against Yakon, and Bobbodi reads his battle power off a kiri meter (akin to his brand of scouter) as 3,000 kiri, as opposed to Yakon's 800. If kiri converted 1:1 to battle power, then, going by the x50 multiplier, base Gokuu would be 600 kiri, yet he was able to hold his own against Yakon.
Well, Goku is a Super Saiyan Full Power, not a normal Super Saiyan. His Super Saiyan form isn't just a multiplier anymore, since he can lower his battle power to, let's say, only 5 while on Super Saiyan.
I know, which is where the highly plausible theory of SS Gokuu merely suppressing his power (because he only transformed to give light to the area) comes into play.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by LiamKav » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:23 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:If kiri converted 1:1 to battle power
Celsius and Fahrenheit don't even convert 1:1...
Exactly. I don't believe in it either, since we're given no real basis for the conversion. It was just a throwaway scene that basically sums up to "Woah, this guy's much stronger than this guy".
I hate it when stuff gets cut off the bottom of the page...

Celsius and fahrenheit DO convert 1:1. Or rather, °C = (°F - 32) / 1.8. They are both measuring temperature, so there is an exact method for converting between them. It's a bad comparison because we don't know if kiri and battle power are measuring the same thing, whereas we do in the case of celsius and fahrenheit.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Bussani » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:33 am

LiamKav wrote:Celsius and fahrenheit DO convert 1:1. Or rather, °C = (°F - 32) / 1.8. They are both measuring temperature, so there is an exact method for converting between them. It's a bad comparison because we don't know if kiri and battle power are measuring the same thing, whereas we do in the case of celsius and fahrenheit.
Does that count as 1:1? Maybe it does. I really don't know. But I think the point is this:

8,000 Celsius = 14,432 Fahrenheit.

8,000 x 50 = 400,000.
14,432 x 50 = 721,600

400,000 Celsius =/= 721,600 Fahrenheit.

In other words, battle power multipliers like Kaioken, Oozaru, and Super Saiyan wouldn't work the same with kiri if the relationship between battle powers and kiri was like the relationship between Celsius and Fahrenheit.*

Personally, I like to think of kiri are a logarithmic scale like decibels, because a) kiri meters look like decibel meters, and b) it makes it so different from battle powers that directly comparing them becomes difficult, which fits perfectly since, in my opinion, Toriyama never expected them to be.

*Of course, 400,000 Celsius is close to 721,600 Fahrenheit...but that's not the point!
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by LiamKav » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:10 am

Bussani wrote:Does that count as 1:1? Maybe it does. I really don't know. But I think the point is this:
Well, it is a direct conversion. It's not 1:1, but then 1:1 is not a conversion, it's the exact same thing. It's 1 apple = 1 apple. Unless you mean that something like Kelvin to Celsius (where Celsius = Kelvin + 273).

Logarithmic scales are perfectly convertable too. Of course, we have no idea if battle power is a logarithmic scale. And it really needs a unit name, too. Freeza's second form level is a million... what? We know he's several thousand Raditzs, but I don't think that's a SI unit.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Bussani » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:39 am

LiamKav wrote:Well, it is a direct conversion. It's not 1:1, but then 1:1 is not a conversion, it's the exact same thing. It's 1 apple = 1 apple.
What people mean is that it's different from, say, 1 Raditz = 1,500 battle powers. With a conversion like that, the same multipliers can still be used. Doubling Raditzes and doubling battle power is the same thing. If the conversion is more like Celsius and Fahrenheit, on the other hand, then that isn't the case. It's a difference worth pointing out since this is all about applying the Super Saiyan multiplier to a unit of measurement that we're not sure it works with. Of course, the fact that Goku probably wasn't powered up to the max in base or Super Saiyan just adds to the uncertainty even more.
Logarithmic scales are perfectly convertable too.
Of course they are. I'm just trying to show that there are more options than "1 kiri = ______ battle power", and that some of these options can't just have the same multipliers slapped on them. Even if they're measuring the same thing, doubling one's battle power may not cause one's kiri to double.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Rocketman » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:14 pm

LiamKav wrote:
Bussani wrote:Does that count as 1:1? Maybe it does. I really don't know. But I think the point is this:
Well, it is a direct conversion. It's not 1:1, but then 1:1 is not a conversion, it's the exact same thing. It's 1 apple = 1 apple. Unless you mean that something like Kelvin to Celsius (where Celsius = Kelvin + 273).
Yeah, that's what I meant. 1 degree in Celsius is 1.8 degrees in Fahrenheit.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Fox666 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:23 pm

Shouldn't 1º Celsius be 33.8º Fahrenheit?

Whatever, I guess the conclusion is that we don't know how Kiri works, nor if Goku was using all of his power, so it doesn't prove anything in regard of Super Saiyan multiplier.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Hitiro » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:39 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Well, Goku is a Super Saiyan Full Power, not a normal Super Saiyan. His Super Saiyan form isn't just a multiplier anymore, since he can lower his battle power to, let's say, only 5 while on Super Saiyan.
I'm sorry, but it seems like Goku could always manipulate his battle power in SSJ. Because the SSJ form is a multiplier it just influences his base battle power, if he lowers his base battle power then it would have the same effect in SSJ. Super Saiyan Full Power is really just a fan term and it doesn't really accurately describe the upgrade (if you can call it that) to the form. We've been told that Goku and Gohan have just learnt to hold the transformation without having it put too much of a strain on them, this just means that while they are in SSJ they will have an increased stamina compared to a fresh SSJ or a SSJ like Vegeta. This allows them to use their Ki more effectively in the battle as they won't need to worry about their Ki reserves as much. That's all it basically did.

If Goku was in his base form and his battle power was at 3 million while he wasn't doing anything, but lets say his maximum battle power was something close to Frieza's 50%, then if he were to go into SSJ straight off the bat without raising his power then he would have a battle power of 150 million. Of course once he is in SSJ he can choose to increase his power, if he so chooses. I am not sure, and people will shoot me in the back for this because I have mentioned before that I don't believe a character is increasing his power in battle unless he lets out a Kiai(The shout, not the one we see blowing opponents away). But it seems Goku increased his power even throughout the battle with Frieza a multiple amount of times. I am still unsure about whether he actually increased his power or he was just annoyed but people seem to think he was holding back against Frieza.

More on the topic of the whole Kiri thing, it may be that as the Kiri gauge increases the more difficult it is to reach the next digit. The Richter scale uses is an example of scale which is exponential so in the case of Kiri, for example, it would look like this if we're going by how the Richter scale works:

1 Kiri = 10 Battle Power
2 Kiri = 100 Battle Power
3 Kiri = 1,000 Battle Power
4 Kiri = 10,000 Battle Power
5 Kiri = 100,000 Battle Power
6 Kiri = 1,000,000 Battle Power
7 Kiri = 10,000,000 Battle Power
8 Kiri = 100,000,000 Battle Power
9 Kiri = 1,000,000,000 Battle Power
10 Kiri = 10,000,000,000 Battle Power

^I probably didn't need to do it all the way to 10 to get my point across but as you can see this is how it would look if we use the Richter scale as an example. Of course it might work differently.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Rocketman » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:30 pm

Fox666 wrote:Shouldn't 1º Celsius be 33.8º Fahrenheit?
No, not the temperature reading, the actual unit called a "degree".

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Kaboom » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:37 pm

"Super Saiyan Full Power" isn't a fan-term. It's from, albeit only from, Goku's "Growing Up" biography in Daizenshuu 2. And while some amount of control over one's power while in Super Saiyan may have been seen before, only after the FPSSj training were Goku and Gohan able to restrain themselves to such a perfect degree that they were just walking around and chilling in the form as if it were their normal states, putting out next to zero energy all the while. That amount of control was unheard of before then.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Bussani » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:13 pm

Hitiro wrote:I'm sorry, but it seems like Goku could always manipulate his battle power in SSJ. Because the SSJ form is a multiplier it just influences his base battle power, if he lowers his base battle power then it would have the same effect in SSJ. Super Saiyan Full Power is really just a fan term and it doesn't really accurately describe the upgrade (if you can call it that) to the form. We've been told that Goku and Gohan have just learnt to hold the transformation without having it put too much of a strain on them, this just means that while they are in SSJ they will have an increased stamina compared to a fresh SSJ or a SSJ like Vegeta. This allows them to use their Ki more effectively in the battle as they won't need to worry about their Ki reserves as much. That's all it basically did.

If Goku was in his base form and his battle power was at 3 million while he wasn't doing anything, but lets say his maximum battle power was something close to Freeza's 50%, then if he were to go into SSJ straight off the bat without raising his power then he would have a battle power of 150 million. Of course once he is in SSJ he can choose to increase his power, if he so chooses. I am not sure, and people will shoot me in the back for this because I have mentioned before that I don't believe a character is increasing his power in battle unless he lets out a Kiai(The shout, not the one we see blowing opponents away). But it seems Goku increased his power even throughout the battle with Freeza a multiple amount of times. I am still unsure about whether he actually increased his power or he was just annoyed but people seem to think he was holding back against Freeza.
The idea that they couldn't control their battle power as Super Saiyans before is based on what's said when Goku and Gohan exit the Room of Spirit and Time.
Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P6.1-2
Context: Goku and Gohan emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time
Vegeta (to self): “…What’s with them?!...Is that Super Saiyan…!? No…It has a slightly different atmosphere…They’re being so natural in that state…”
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Some people take this to mean that walking around without your ki blazing out as a Super Saiyan is unusual. Of course, that's just one interpretation.

As for me, I'm not sure I agree with what you're saying about Goku being able to control his battle power as a Super Saiyan by controlling his battle power in his regular form. It could be that going Super Saiyan without mastering it is an all or nothing sort of thing, automatically taking them to their maximum output. I think a few people believe that, at least. But again, it's just one interpretation.
More on the topic of the whole Kiri thing, it may be that as the Kiri gauge increases the more difficult it is to reach the next digit.
Yeah. I was suggesting the same concept when I compared kiri to decibels.
Kaboom wrote:"Super Saiyan Full Power" isn't a fan-term. It's from, albeit only from, Goku's "Growing Up" biography in Daizenshuu 2. And while some amount of control over one's power while in Super Saiyan may have been seen before, only after the FPSSj training were Goku and Gohan able to restrain themselves to such a perfect degree that they were just walking around and chilling in the form as if it were their normal states, putting out next to zero energy all the while. That amount of control was unheard of before then.
He probably means that how people use it is a bit of a fan term. I've come to believe that "Super Saiyan Full Power" isn't even a name of anything--it's just a subsection name. It refers to the point that Goku revealed his full power to Cell (in the chapter "Son Goku at Full Power" no less) and nothing more. It's fans who use that subsection title as the name for everything Goku and Gohan could do once they left the Room of Spirit and Time. However, it is at least convenient to use it as the name for, "Goku and Gohan as Super Saiyans after the Room of Spirit and Time training," because that doesn't roll off the tongue very well.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Hitiro » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:56 pm

Kaboom wrote:"Super Saiyan Full Power" isn't a fan-term. It's from, albeit only from, Goku's "Growing Up" biography in Daizenshuu 2. And while some amount of control over one's power while in Super Saiyan may have been seen before, only after the FPSSj training were Goku and Gohan able to restrain themselves to such a perfect degree that they were just walking around and chilling in the form as if it were their normal states, putting out next to zero energy all the while. That amount of control was unheard of before then.
Does Daizenshuu 2 actually call it Super Saiyan Full Power? I'm surprised they called it that as I don't recall it ever been mentioned as that apart from on forums. Does the biography also explain about the "upgrade"? Because in the manga it only says that Goku and Gohan have found a way to reduce the strain on their Ki. I'm pretty sure it never states about them having problems restraining their power, but rather getting the right balance of Ki consumption for maintaining the transformation. They may be walking around as if SSJ is their normal state but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have done that before.
Bussani wrote:
Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P6.1-2
Context: Goku and Gohan emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time
Vegeta (to self): “…What’s with them?!...Is that Super Saiyan…!? No…It has a slightly different atmosphere…They’re being so natural in that state…”
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Some people take this to mean that walking around without your ki blazing out as a Super Saiyan is unusual. Of course, that's just one interpretation.

As for me, I'm not sure I agree with what you're saying about Goku being able to control his battle power as a Super Saiyan by controlling his battle power in his regular form. It could be that going Super Saiyan without mastering it is an all or nothing sort of thing, automatically taking them to their maximum output. I think a few people believe that, at least. But again, it's just one interpretation.
See, what you stated there doesn't say to me that they couldn't control their battle power before this but rather there was a state of uneasiness, or rough feeling if you will, to the atmosphere they gave off when they used the transformation. We have seen throughout the story people mentioning a certain aspect to a persons atmosphere, such as, killing intent, and how its interpreted through the individuals Ki. We know that the way Ki emits from someone can give you a rough idea of who it is, for example, Gohan quickly picks up on the fact that Goku is not himself when Ginyu has taken his body because his Ki feels more sinister.

Also I don't subscribe to it meaning a Saiyan can walk around without their ki blazing. There is nearly a whole chapter when Goku is fighting Frieza where Goku doesn't even have an Aura, only for it to come back again after he went to his base form and transformed yet again to deal with Frieza's own version of the Kienzan.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Bussani » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:49 pm

Hitiro wrote:See, what you stated there doesn't say to me that they couldn't control their battle power before this but rather there was a state of uneasiness, or rough feeling if you will, to the atmosphere they gave off when they used the transformation. We have seen throughout the story people mentioning a certain aspect to a persons atmosphere, such as, killing intent, and how its interpreted through the individuals Ki. We know that the way Ki emits from someone can give you a rough idea of who it is, for example, Gohan quickly picks up on the fact that Goku is not himself when Ginyu has taken his body because his Ki feels more sinister.
Like I said, it was just one interpretation.
Also I don't subscribe to it meaning a Saiyan can walk around without their ki blazing. There is nearly a whole chapter when Goku is fighting Freeza where Goku doesn't even have an Aura, only for it to come back again after he went to his base form and transformed yet again to deal with Freeza's own version of the Kienzan.
Sorry, I didn't mean visually blazing (that is to say, I wasn't assuming it had to be visible to be "blazing out"). It's hard to put this stuff into words sometimes.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Kaboom » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:06 am

Hitiro wrote:Does Daizenshuu 2 actually call it Super Saiyan Full Power? I'm surprised they called it that as I don't recall it ever been mentioned as that apart from on forums. Does the biography also explain about the "upgrade"? Because in the manga it only says that Goku and Gohan have found a way to reduce the strain on their Ki. I'm pretty sure it never states about them having problems restraining their power, but rather getting the right balance of Ki consumption for maintaining the transformation. They may be walking around as if SSJ is their normal state but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have done that before.
Yep, and as far as I know, that's the only place it's ever been named as such. Its only real purpose seems to have been to differentiate this new "absolute calmness and control" state he attained from his earlier uses of regular Super Saiyan against Freeza and the Androids, which had its own little section in the same bio. It's from Goku's entry, but Gohan's bio just calls him a regular Super Saiyan, even though we know Gohan achieved the same thing.

All in all, it's still just Super Saiyan, only with a practically zero stress or waste and much more precise and free control over the power. So beyond the context of the Cell arc there's really no need to call it anything different. It's handy that we have an official term for it for the sake of these in-universe discussions, though.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Saiga » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:52 am

Kaboom wrote:
Yep, and as far as I know, that's the only place it's ever been named as such. Its only real purpose seems to have been to differentiate this new "absolute calmness and control" state he attained from his earlier uses of regular Super Saiyan against Freeza and the Androids, which had its own little section in the same bio. It's from Goku's entry, but Gohan's bio just calls him a regular Super Saiyan, even though we know Gohan achieved the same thing.

All in all, it's still just Super Saiyan, only with a practically zero stress or waste and much more precise and free control over the power. So beyond the context of the Cell arc there's really no need to call it anything different. It's handy that we have an official term for it for the sake of these in-universe discussions, though.
I disagree with this. I think Bussani's got it right, and there is no term for the state Goku and Gohan achieved. Honestly, his way of looking at it makes a lot more sense to me.
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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Mystic Gohan » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:48 am

I don't think Goku was using his FP SSJ against Yakon. His kili meter is read at 3000. Dabura states that he can beat 3 fighters at a kili meter of 3000. He then proceeds to fight evenly with SSJ Gohan, who we know is weaker than Goku at this point.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by hleV » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:22 am

Mystic Gohan wrote:I don't think Goku was using his FP SSJ against Yakon.
OBVIOUSLY he wasn't. Not only the fact that Goku can freely control his power as a SSJ, but also that he didn't transform for power in the first place.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by Fox666 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:01 am

hleV wrote:OBVIOUSLY he wasn't.
It's open for interpretation.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by hleV » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:44 am

Fox666 wrote:
hleV wrote:OBVIOUSLY he wasn't.
It's open for interpretation.
How is it open for interpretation when him being at full power (for a non-existant reason) outright contradicts the official SSJ multiplier? What would even be the reason to think that he was at full power? That's something I fail to understand.

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Re: SSJ multiplier

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:18 pm

hleV wrote:How is it open for interpretation when him being at full power outright contradicts the official SSJ multiplier?
How does it contradict anything when we don't even know how the kiri unit relates to battle power?
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