Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

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Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby TheMightyOzaru » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:55 pm

I was wondering what you guys think it is.
EDIT: FPSSJ not SSJ.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Saiga » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:56 pm

50x base.
So much for that.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby TheMightyOzaru » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:57 pm

Saiga wrote:50x base.


I'm talking FPSSJ not SSJ.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby hleV » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:02 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:
Saiga wrote:50x base.


I'm talking FPSSJ not SSJ.

Full Power Super Saiyan is still a Super Saiyan. So 50x base.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Saiga » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:06 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:
Saiga wrote:50x base.


I'm talking FPSSJ not SSJ.


FPSSJ is SSJ. They're the same form.

To quote Bussani on the matter:

Unpopular opinion: "Super Saiyan Full Power" isn't a thing at all--it's an entry in a timeline.

As I'm sure most people know, the name comes from the Growing Up section of Daizenshuu 2. It describes how Goku at the Cell Game was different from Goku when he fought Freeza. If you look, it says this version of Goku's first appearance is in volume 34, which is where he has his fight with Cell. It's not talking about the moment he stepped out of the Room of Spirit and Time, which happened in volume 33, so this "Super Saiyan Full Power" version isn't the same as saying, "Goku after his training in the RoSaT, where he could control his ki and remain as a Super Saiyan without effort." More importantly, which chapter is the image they use from? 398: Son Goku at Full Power--the chapter where Goku reveals his "full power" to Cell.

People generally use "Full Power Super Saiyan" to mean any Super Saiyan who can freely control their ki, who can stay Super Saiyan with ease, and who has a particular kind of aura. Admittedly, this Goku entry has all of those things, but I think that's a case of coincidence and overlap. I mean, Gohan has all of those things in his regular Super Saiyan entry. This is probably another case of naming something for the sake of convenience, and in that regard I'm okay with it. I just don't think it's what the writers of the Daizenshuu intended when they wrote it. I think all they intended was for Goku to have two Super Saiyan entries, and they needed a name for the second one.
So much for that.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Kaboom » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:22 pm

To parrot what's already been said... "Full Power" Super Saiyan is the same thing as Super Saiyan. The only marked difference, in or out of the manga, is the amount of total ease and control in the form which Goku and Gohan trained for. But it's still Super Saiyan. It's going to be 50 times stronger than however strong the Saiyan's normal form is.

I mean, heck, it's not even meant to be all that different. The only place where the "Full Power Super Saiyan" name is even ever used is in Goku's 'Growing Up' biography in Daizenshuu #2. Never seen again. Even Gohan's entry in the same section is called just "Super Saiyan," even though we know he achieved the same sort of absolute mastery over the form as Goku.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Shineman » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:35 am

Like others have said..

It's 50x. There's no differences in power of Full Power Super Saiyan than a regular Super Saiyan.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby JacobYBM » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:56 am

A neat little analogy I just came up with off the top of my head: 'Full Power Super Saiyan' is Super Saiyan without the leak in the gas line. It's using Super Saiyan without any of the drawbacks that a less experienced user would undergo.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Fox666 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:29 am

Saiga wrote:If you look, it says this version of Goku's first appearance is in volume 34, which is where he has his fight with Cell. It's not talking about the moment he stepped out of the Room of Spirit and Time, which happened in volume 33, so this "Super Saiyan Full Power" version isn't the same as saying, "Goku after his training in the RoSaT, where he could control his ki and remain as a Super Saiyan without effort." More importantly, which chapter is the image they use from? 398: Son Goku at Full Power--the chapter where Goku reveals his "full power" to Cell.

Hah, I never realized that! But looking at it now, in the description it says that after the training, Goku "draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits" which I guess refers to the fact that Goku was supressing his Super Saiyan powers since he left the RoSaT.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Kaboom » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:01 am

That IS a good catch. Just further cements the idea that the forms are really no different aside from the ease and control. It's not even describing the form itself, just pointing out, "oh, this is when Goku finally went full-throttle to fight Cell."
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby lash » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:37 pm

Even though I've always agreed with the same viewpoints most of you hold about the FPSSJ = SSJ in power/multiplier...
I'm going to play Image... for no real good reason other than I'm a no good bastard. I could use a good amusement.

So let the discussion commence.

The Purpose
To find if there actually are other differences between SSJ and FPSSJ. Such as the multiplier.

The Hypothesis

FPSSJ IS stronger than SSJ, multiplier-wise. That in fact, FPSSJ is even stronger than SSJG2...and maybe even SSJG3.

The supporting stuff
:

-FPSSJ demonstrated a change in aura. Despite the fact that most of us are aware that the aura fluctuated back and forth between regular SSJ and FPSSJ as the series progressed...we can not deny the fact that it still altered. It altered enough that it was directly stated in Daizenshuu 2 as a characteristic of FPSSJ. A radical change in aura is already enough grounds to say SSJ =/= FPSSJ.

-The Daizenshuu 2's entry on FPSSJ appearing at vol 34+ is likely only talking about when the maximum power of the FPSSJ state is first being shown. The relaxed SSJ-like states of Goku and Gohan are still called FPSSJs as shown in Daizenshuu 3.

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Herms wrote:Super Saiya-jin
Super Saiya-jin’s biggest distinguishing characteristics are the golden hair that stands up straight, and the green pupils. Also, because they are in a continuous lightly agitated state, their personality also becomes wild. This type is the first grade of Super Saiya-jin, and can be called the base for all Super Saiya-jins.

Variations
Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power time is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this.


-Because it makes the most obvious sense. If FPSSJ is equal to SSJ... SSJG2, which increases power and speed higher than a SSJ is simply the superior choice. 'Balance-wise' is irrelevant. Vegeta didn't pass out after 1 minute when he used the state against Cell. So stamina isn't enough of a problem to disregard the state. There would be no reason not to use a form with higher speed, power, and Ki if you could. Otherwise Goku should never use SSJ2 or SSJ3.

-In addition to the above...Daizenshuu 2's "An unreasonable powerup" is obviously only talking about SSJG3. SSJG2, which is pretty much like a SSJ3 to a SSJ2 except for a SSJ1...obviously isn't unreasonable at all.

-Again Daizenshuu 2 states, Goku draws out the "power of the Super Saiyan to its limit". Doesn't get much clearer than that. It's not talking about Goku's own limit(which had also been temporary reached at that time), it's talking about the SSJ form itself. Meaning irregardless of Goku's base power, FPSSJ should still be superior to any other SSJ-branch like transformations, powerwise.


So I'll let you gentlemen ponder on those for a bit and build up your refutes(if you can). And after I'm done with this final exam, I'll be back to elaborate further. Have fun.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:51 pm

I see Super Saiyan Full Power exactly like lash described it.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Mjb1985 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Super Saiyan and FPSSJ should have the same multiplier. Whether that be 10x or 50x whatever your preference is.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Hitiro » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:41 pm

lash wrote:-Again Daizenshuu 2 states, Goku draws out the "power of the Super Saiyan to its limit". Doesn't get much clearer than that. It's not talking about Goku's own limit(which had also been temporary reached at that time), it's talking about the SSJ form itself. Meaning irregardless of Goku's base power, FPSSJ should still be superior to any other SSJ-branch like transformations, powerwise.
This may not mean an increase in power per say, but rather it allows Goku to draw out the power, which is already available, of the Super Saiyan to its limit without any penalties. Thus allowing Goku to fight at his maximum without worry about maintaining the energy in a prolonged battle. Power doesn't need to directly correlate to the strength of the form. Power in this case could mean, as said by definition of the word "power", the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. This is how I see FPSSJ, as others do. Its just a highly tuned form of the regular SSJ form without the implications on the Saiyan's energy reserves.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Mjb1985 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:47 pm

Yea I agree with that. It's not a new form, it's an old form perfected. Which is why I prefer the fan term of Mssj.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Rocketman » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:53 pm

The "power of the Super Saiyan" is x50.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Mjb1985 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:54 pm

I think a case can be made for 10x considering Gero's statements as well as Toriyama's interview.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Rocketman » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:54 pm

Mjb1985 wrote:I think a case can be made for 10x considering Gero's statements as well as Toriyama's interview.


You think wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Mjb1985 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:55 pm

Lol. I don't think you can tell me how to think, you may have a different opinion, but there is a plausible case for Super Saiyan being a 10x boost following the Freeza Saga. The fandom is split more or less on the issue.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Postby Bussani » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:19 pm

lash's post has made me rethink my own thoughts on this matter, which I'm really happy about. It seems Daizenshuu 3 really does use the name the way fans use it. I'd thought for a while now it was mostly a fan term, but there you go--it really does come from somewhere. That's awesome.

But as for the multiplier being different, I still don't think that's necessarily the case, and it's not the explanation I prefer. Like some of the others, I like to think of "Full Power Super Saiyan" as Super Saiyan when it's more controlled, efficient, and less wasteful. The reason Goku is so much stronger than anything else, in my opinion, is simply that his existing power has increased dramatically.

I do like Fox's interpretation of the "draws out his power" comment, too.

Mjb1985 wrote:I think a case can be made for 10x considering Gero's statements as well as Toriyama's interview.

What does Gero say that makes x10 seem plausible?
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