Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Saiga » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:29 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I know Gero has a power scanner, but I wonder if it actually reads powers accurately. He says that Goku's Super Saiyan power is well beyond the calculated level for Goku, but I still wonder if his scanner has a limit. Even as Piccolo was kicking his ass, he was still wondering why he was losing. Or maybe his power scanner couldn't get a good read of Piccolo's power.
I was actually going to put forward this idea. It'd be hilarious if it had a cap, like the scouters but instead of exploding (because that was a terrible design flaw) it simply didn't read anything beyond that.

Like Gero has a PL equivalent of 90,000,000 and anything over 100,000,000 is only read as 100,000,000.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:23 am

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about his power scanner. I always thought once it went beyond the calculated limits, everything else after that point was nothing more than a guess.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:25 am

Well for one, Vegeta doesn't seem awfully concerned. It's not like he's begging Piccolo to not lose to Gero because then they will be doomed.

So I try to be fair and have them add up to somewhat close to Vegeta, but I definitely don't think it would match Vegeta or be superior.

Even so, the 10x boost would be required to make it possible to even close such a gap as suggested. Just getting Gero in range would require a 10x gap...

I personally haven't read through all of the Gero stuff to in depth, but I'm pretty sure Gero's calculations are more or less ok.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:05 am

Saiga wrote:So Lash & DBZGTKOSDH, could you give me more information on how you believe FPSS1 works? I have trouble getting where you're coming from. Maybe it would help if you used numbers xD
It could work like this:

First of all, I consider the two Grade forms as sub-transformations of the Super Saiyan form, and Super Saiyan Full Power an upgraded form of the Super Saiyan. Now, let's say that the normal Super Saiyan form is using the 50% of the Super Saiyan form. Grade 2 could be using 75%, and Grade 3 could be using 95%, or even 100% if you prefer. (It's like Muten Roshi's & Freeza's power ups). By mastering the Super Saiyan form, and upgrading it into Super Saiyan Full Power, the user can use the 100% of the Super Saiyan form without increasing his muscles or putting any strain to the body. Not only the user can use the 100% of the form, but he can also freely control his battle power, and even lower it to zero.

And don't forget, the numbers I used are symbolic, not literal.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Saiga » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:46 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Saiga wrote:So Lash & DBZGTKOSDH, could you give me more information on how you believe FPSS1 works? I have trouble getting where you're coming from. Maybe it would help if you used numbers xD
It could work like this:

First of all, I consider the two Grade forms as sub-transformations of the Super Saiyan form, and Super Saiyan Full Power an upgraded form of the Super Saiyan. Now, let's say that the normal Super Saiyan form is using the 50% of the Super Saiyan form. Grade 2 could be using 75%, and Grade 3 could be using 95%, or even 100% if you prefer. (It's like Muten Roshi's & Freeza's power ups). By mastering the Super Saiyan form, and upgrading it into Super Saiyan Full Power, the user can use the 100% of the Super Saiyan form without increasing his muscles or putting any strain to the body. Not only the user can use the 100% of the form, but he can also freely control his battle power, and even lower it to zero.

And don't forget, the numbers I used are symbolic, not literal.
Yeah, but my problem is how does that work with the official multiplier? Does that mean up until FPSS it's only been 25x base? Or is it now 100x base for FPSS?
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:18 am

No, Super Saiyan is x50, while Super Saiyan Full Power is x50, plus Grade 2 & 3, and maybe some additional power as well.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Saiga » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:25 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, Super Saiyan is x50, while Super Saiyan Full Power is x50, plus Grade 2 & 3, and maybe some additional power as well.
That just doesn't make sense to me. It's either 50x or it's not.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:22 am

Saiga wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, Super Saiyan is x50, while Super Saiyan Full Power is x50, plus Grade 2 & 3, and maybe some additional power as well.
That just doesn't make sense to me. It's either 50x or it's not.
The thing is, you consider. SS and SSFP one and the same, if I'm not wrong. I don't. I consider SSFP an upgraded version of the SS form.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Bussani » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:43 am

You still haven't really answered his question, though. Are you saying Super Saiyan is x50 and Full Power Super Saiyan is higher? And how does it fit with the other multipliers we're given, if at all?
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:00 am

Bussani wrote:You still haven't really answered his question, though. Are you saying Super Saiyan is x50 and Full Power Super Saiyan is higher? And how does it fit with the other multipliers we're given, if at all?
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, Super Saiyan is x50, while Super Saiyan Full Power is x50, plus Grade 2 & 3, and maybe some additional power as well.
As for how it affects the others, it doesn't. SS2 is x2, and SS3 is x4.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Saiga » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:02 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Saiga wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, Super Saiyan is x50, while Super Saiyan Full Power is x50, plus Grade 2 & 3, and maybe some additional power as well.
That just doesn't make sense to me. It's either 50x or it's not.
The thing is, you consider. SS and SSFP one and the same, if I'm not wrong. I don't. I consider SSFP an upgraded version of the SS form.
No, it's not about me thinking SS and SSFP as the same. Even if they're not the same, I can't understand how you're saying SSFP would work.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:16 am

What I'm saying is, the SSFP is equal, or stronger than Grade 3.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Bussani » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:47 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:As for how it affects the others, it doesn't. SS2 is x2, and SS3 is x4.
So x2 and x4 Full Power Super Saiyan? Okay.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by hleV » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:26 am

At one moment I also had thought of a possibility that FPSSJ actually uses the power of Grade II/III. Basically because Vegeta, after seeing Goku and Gohan leaving the ROSAT as SSJs, told Trunks that they had mastered the SSJ and thus can use the power without transforming further (unless I got it wrong).
However, we have official multipliers that don't work with this theory, as SSJ2 is 2x SSJ, not 2x FPSSJ. So I just stick with Goku increasing his power enough to avoid using Grade forms.
Regarding the aura, perhaps it depends on the strength of a SSJ.

EDIT: By the wording in Strength Checker, it's more up to an interpretation.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
[ ]
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:56 pm

Now that you mentioned the SEG, how exactly are the multipliers worded? Because if. it has, for example, SS = Base x 50, SS2 = SS x 2, and SS3 = SS2 x 4, then I'll have to abandon the theory...
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:45 pm

Well lets see here. If we go off my original theory, as well as Bussani's, that FPSSJ raises the base power then it should work like this:
SSJ: x50
SSJG2: x75
SSJG3: x100, this form is incredibly slow therefore it is impractical in battle.
FPSSJ: x50, this form just increases the users base power after having SSJ maintained for so long. This also gives complete control over the SSJ state itself.
SSJ2: x100, this form has all the benefits of SSJG3 but loses the unnecessary bulk making for a much much faster form.
SSJ3: x400
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Bussani » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:12 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Now that you mentioned the SEG, how exactly are the multipliers worded? Because if. it has, for example, SS = Base x 50, SS2 = SS x 2, and SS3 = SS2 x 4, then I'll have to abandon the theory...
It more or less is like that.

Super Saiyan is fifty times the battle power of the regular state.
Super Saiyan 2 is twice the strength of Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 4 is four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2.

It's notable that the guide uses battle power for the first line, but strength for the other two. Is that just because numerical battle powers went away at that point, or is there some other meaning behind it? What were the writers of the guide trying to tell us? No one knows for sure, but considering battle power and strength are often used interchangeably anyway, they probably all mean the same thing...
hleV wrote:Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”
Hmm, yeah. I suppose this line could be taken either way. On the one hand, he berates Trunks and tells him they won't transform because they've judged this to be their best state, which to me has always meant that they choose not to transform again, not that they can't--and as I said, that's enough of an explanation for me. But that other line about them raising their power...I can sort of see how it might mean that they could bring out the same power as the grades, but without bulking up the muscles? I'll say this at least: the idea of Full Power Super Saiyan being a larger multiplier seems a bit more plausible to me now than it has for a while.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:39 pm

I don't know what to believe now... :?

As for Vegeta's comment, by raising the battle power, he could also mean powering up from extremely suppressed to full power.

But I can't understand why Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks didn't use Grade 2 against Cell and the Cell Jrs. I observed the Vegeta vs Cell battle, and neither Vegeta, nor Trunks showed any strain, or ki decrease, or small speed, or anything significant that could cost their battle. Sure, it most likely consumes a lot of ki, but still I didn't see any problem in the form.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Bussani » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:25 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I don't know what to believe now... :?

As for Vegeta's comment, by raising the battle power, he could also mean powering up from extremely suppressed to full power.
That's what I always thought it meant, personally, but I'm giving some real thought to the alternatives.
But I can't understand why Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks didn't use Grade 2 against Cell and the Cell Jrs. I observed the Vegeta vs Cell battle, and neither Vegeta, nor Trunks showed any strain, or ki decrease, or small speed, or anything significant that could cost their battle. Sure, it most likely consumes a lot of ki, but still I didn't see any problem in the form.
I know what you mean. The drawbacks don't seem to cause any major problems on the surface, but Goku seems to think they're there and that it's better to avoid them.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:55 pm

Well, Super Saiyan Grade 2 is weaker than Super Saiyan 2, so Grade 2 doesn't even double the user's strength. Maybe against Cell & the Cell Jrs, Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks decided not to use the form because it wasn't worth to sacrifice energy because it still wouldn't be enough to beat them.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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