Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

[TheMightyOzaru]

lash's post has made me rethink my own thoughts on this matter, which I'm really happy about. It seems Daizenshuu 3 really does use the name the way fans use it. I'd thought for a while now it was mostly a fan term, but there you go--it really does come from somewhere. That's awesome.

But as for the multiplier being different, I still don't think that's necessarily the case, and it's not the explanation I prefer. Like some of the others, I like to think of "Full Power Super Saiyan" as Super Saiyan when it's more controlled, efficient, and less wasteful. The reason Goku is so much stronger than anything else, in my opinion, is simply that his existing power has increased dramatically.

I do like Fox's interpretation of the "draws out his power" comment, too.

I think a case can be made for 10x considering Gero's statements as well as Toriyama's interview.

What does Gero say that makes x10 seem plausible?

So in other words you think that maintaining SSJ increases the base power? That was my original thought process and the Daizenshuu seem to support this.

[lash]

This may not mean an increase in power per say, but rather it allows Goku to draw out the power, which is already available, of the Super Saiyan to its limit without any penalties. Thus allowing Goku to fight at his maximum without worry about maintaining the energy in a prolonged battle. Power doesn't need to directly correlate to the strength of the form. Power in this case could mean, as said by definition of the word "power", the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. This is how I see FPSSJ, as others do. Its just a highly tuned form of the regular SSJ form without the implications on the Saiyan's energy reserves.

Alright, fair enough.
You could think of it like that.

There are still plenty more points that need to be defeated though, before my Devil Advocate's mode concedes.
If they can't all be defeated(or at least made to satisfy FPSSJ = SSJ, somehow) thoroughly, I'll be forced to make the conclusion: FPSSJ can hold the same transformation multiplier as SSJ OR it can hold a higher transformation multiplier, if one so desires.

[Bussani]

So in other words you think that maintaining SSJ increases the base power? That was my original thought process and the Daiz seem to support this.

I think that might be part of it, yeah. Overcoming the original strain of Super Saiyan may have had a similar effect to overcoming the strain of high gravity--or something like that. But there's possibly another factor: once you've overcome the problems of Super Saiyan you should be able to fight, and train, a lot more efficiently as one. You should be able to spar at your best for longer before wearing yourself out. Throw in the Room of Spirit and Time's higher (than Earth's) gravity and its other challenges, as well as a sparring partner who's about as strong as you are, and I don't think it's surprising that he and Gohan would gain a lot of base power.

If they can't all be defeated(or at least made to satisfy FPSSJ = SSJ, somehow) thoroughly, I'll be forced to make the conclusion: FPSSJ can hold the same transformation multiplier as SSJ OR it can hold a higher transformation multiplier, if one so desires.

Do you mean that it becomes a matter of opinion and that both points of view are valid? If so, yeah, I don't think there's anything that makes the higher multiplication impossible. It's just not the explanation I prefer. Plus, none of the guides with multipliers in them make mention of it.

[lash]

Yea I agree with that. It's not a new form, it's an old form perfected. Which is why I prefer the fan term of Mssj.

But that's the problem. Who cares about a weaker, slower, and older form?
Goku didn't get multiple near death powerups on Namek only to fight in his normal...stamina-friendly-state all the time. No. He busted out his highest Kaioken when he needed to... knowing full well how inefficient such a technique is.

The flaws of SSJG3 are obviously apparent. The underlying issue with FPSSJ = SSJ, is SSJG2.

Again, just look at SSJ3. It's pretty much in the same exact situation as SSJG2 here. It's faster, stronger, has more Ki than SSJ...but the stamina and energy consumption is worse.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Goku thinking of fighting Majin Boo 1 on 1 with his stamina friendly SSJ1 state, using the excuse(I'm quoting exactly) "...it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…” I'm just lmao thinking about how hard Boo would have handed his ass to him if he tried that bullshit.
So the question is...why would Goku stick to SSJ/FPSSJ if SSJG2, like SSJ3... is powerwise, a higher end form?
...Unless SSJG2 isn't faster and stronger than FPSSJ...dun dun dun.

Do you mean that it becomes a matter of opinion and that both points of view are valid? If so, yeah, I don't think there's anything that makes the higher multiplication impossible. It's just not the explanation I prefer. Plus, none of the guides with multipliers in them make mention of it.

Yeah. Most things turn out to be opinions one way or another. But I'm the kinda guy who likes to be on the 'more than likely side' if you get what I'm saying. Whichever side has more support, no unexplainable criticism, and overall likelihood... will be shown and made blatantly apparent for all to see.

[Bussani]

So the question is...why would Goku stick to SSJ/FPSSJ if SSJG2, like SSJ3... is powerwise, a higher end form?

Possibly because the gap between him and Cell wasn't so big (at the time) that it would be worth any of the trade offs (whatever they are). The difference between Super Saiyan and Grade II must be much smaller than the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 (or even the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3), so Super Saiyan 3--like really high Kaioken multipliers--seems a lot more tempting, not to mention completely necessary against the overwhelmingly powerful opponents in the Buu arc.

...Unless SSJG2 isn't faster and stronger than FPSSJ...dun dun dun.

That's still possible. Would Super Saiyan 2 then be double Full Power Super Saiyan, rather than double regular Super Saiyan? I guess it would have to be.

It also makes me wonder other things. If the multiplier for Grade II is smaller than the multiplier for Full Power, does that mean the two are incompatible? You'd have to power down from Full Power in order to use Grade II? It could also work how others have suggested: the multiplier for Super Saiyan remains the same, but the ability to become Grade II is lost for one reason or another.

Yeah. Most things turn out to be opinions one way or another. But I'm the kinda guy who likes to be on the 'more than likely side' if you get what I'm saying. Whichever side has more support, no unexplainable criticism, and overall likelihood... will be shown and made blatantly apparent for all to see.

I'm that way too, but while I might sometimes have an explanation I prefer or feel is the most likely, I'm completely okay with not having that as well. Often, simply having a bunch of potential explanations is enough for me, and I like being shown new ones I hadn't thought of before.

[Rocketman]

Lol. I don't think you can tell me how to think, you may have a different opinion, but there is a plausible case for Super Saiyan being a 10x boost following the Freeza Saga. The fandom is split more or less on the issue.

Most of the fandom is pretty dumb, sad to say. If SS1 is only x10, then Kaioken x20 is the same power as Super Saiyan 2.

[dbzfan7]

Lol. I don't think you can tell me how to think, you may have a different opinion, but there is a plausible case for Super Saiyan being a 10x boost following the Freeza Saga. The fandom is split more or less on the issue.

Most of the fandom is pretty dumb, sad to say. If SS1 is only x10, then Kaioken x20 is the same power as Super Saiyan 2.

Exactly why 10 times for SSJ makes no sense. Why would Freeza have a hard time beating SSJ Goku if he was 10x base. Freeza already decimated 10x Kaioken Goku.

[Mjb1985]

Agreed 10x makes no sense considering Kaioken.

But people couple Gero's statements with AT writing the manga Super Saiyan as a 10x boost in his mind to make a strong case why it could be 10x even though there's logic against it.

Personally I don't have a problem with 50x, but I do see the problems associated with it regarding the Gero stuff.

The only way to explain away the Gero implications would be to say Gero doesn't know what he's talking about, or consider the possibility that absorption doesn't work in a strictly additive way. Considering Cell's couple of hundred thousand humans absorbed resulting in several hundred million in additional power level we can conclude that AT isn't all the good with math here or perhaps absorption works differently than we thought.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Which Gero statements are you referring to?

[Mjb1985]

I don't have the quotes off hand but it was basically regarding who Gero had to absorb to become powerful enough to defeat Vegeta.

Gero said he needed to absorb Gohan , Tien , and Kuririn to topple Vegeta , or he could just absorb Piccolo again.

So it works out that the distance between Gero and Vegeta , which was sizable , could be closed by Tien , Gohan and Kuririn , which would mean going by an additive theory, they would have to be pretty damn powerful.

A 50x boost wouldn't cut it in this situation. Heck, even a 10x boost doesn't work either but it gets the claim within reasonable proportions. Vegeta doesn't take Gero all that seriously either which is why I go with that as well.

[Saiga]

So the question is...why would Goku stick to SSJ/FPSSJ if SSJG2, like SSJ3... is powerwise, a higher end form?

Because the power just might not be worth it. How much stronger is Grade II than SS1? We don't know, because although Grade II Vegeta roflstomped second-form Cell, he got a lot stronger in general after his RoSaT training. Meanwhile, we know SS3 is 4x SS2. That makes it worth the trade-off in energy draining.

[Mjb1985]

I think of it differently than FPSSJ being a higher boost than Grade 2 .

Think of it this way.

If you take the Grade 2 route, you will be able to tap into x amount of potential.

But, if you take the Ssj route , you will be able to tap into your complete potential.

Hence why Vegeta and Trunks Super Saiyan power was only around Semi Cell's power and Gohan and Goku's Super Saiyan power being around a large percentage of Cell's Perfect form.

Sure you can transform off of your Super Saiyan, but does it make sense if your Super Saiyan is far weaker than it would have been if you just trained your Super Saiyan straight through?

[lash]

Possibly because the gap between him and Cell wasn't so big (at the time) that it would be worth any of the trade offs (whatever they are). The difference between Super Saiyan and Grade II must be much smaller than the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 (or even the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3), so Super Saiyan 3--like really high Kaioken multipliers--seems a lot more tempting, not to mention completely necessary against the overwhelmingly powerful opponents in the Buu arc.

Goku: “Seems he’s stronger than I imagined…If I let my guard down just a little bit, I’ll be done in instantly...”

If Goku could raise his power, speed, and Ki(which would raise overall defenses) that would certainly be a better way to reduce such dangerous circumstances. Energy consumption shouldn't even be an excuse here. Considering Goku wasted as much Ki as he could trying to pull off a one-hitter-quitter warp Kamehameha. If Goku could raise his power any further, I'm sure he would have against Cell. If he could.

That's still possible. Would Super Saiyan 2 then be double Full Power Super Saiyan, rather than double regular Super Saiyan? I guess it would have to be.

It also makes me wonder other things. If the multiplier for Grade II is smaller than the multiplier for Full Power, does that mean the two are incompatible? You'd have to power down from Full Power in order to use Grade II? It could also work how others have suggested: the multiplier for Super Saiyan remains the same, but the ability to become Grade II is lost for one reason or another.

Apparently SSJG2 as well as FPSSJ are just variations of SSJ. So I'd assume you'd either pick the FPSSJ route, or the Grade state route. I don't think they would be compatible.

If we analyze how others have suggested, you pretty much still have the same issue. Why go on a weaker form's route... ending up having no access to a stronger form(pre SSJ2)...when you could just toughen up your base and regular SSJ1 state until its as good as a FPSSJs...then just apply the SSJG2 form. That would've the smartest and more efficient way to do go about it. The excuse of stamina or energy consumption benefits isn't really going to cut it, as I explained with the same why-didn't-goku-use SSJ1 instead of SSJ3 to fight Pure Boo relation.

SSJG2 is so much more faster and stronger than SSJ1, that if it was your strongest state, you'd be foolish not to use it:

A power-up where every nerve is concentrated, sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiyan.

If one honestly thinks FPSSJ is just regular old SSJ1 with better stamina and lower energy consumption(as in, that's ALL you think is the difference) then there's really nothing logically stopping a FPSSJ from applying the SSJG2 state on top of that too, right?

Because the power just might not be worth it. How much stronger is Grade II than SS1? We don't know, because although Grade II Vegeta roflstomped second-form Cell, he got a lot stronger in general after his RoSaT training. Meanwhile, we know SS3 is 4x SS2. That makes it worth the trade-off in energy draining.

It's certainly worth it:

A power-up where every nerve is concentrated, sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiyan.

[Mjb1985]

I see it the same as Lash.

You are a regular Super Saiyan. You have two roads you can take. The Grade road or the Super Saiyan road. The Grade road only gets you so far. The Super Saiyan road allows you to maximize your potential.

[Bussani]

You make good points, lash, but some of them rely on your own interpretations of things, like how energy consumption shouldn't be an excuse, or how you're sure Goku would have done this or that. I just don't have much trouble believing that he didn't use the forms because he'd already dismissed them as not being the best way, and because Grade II isn't worth the trade offs for the (relatively) small increase in power it might give. That said, I don't think there are any technical problems with looking at it the way you're proposing, either.

The excuse of stamina or energy consumption benefits isn't really going to cut it, as I explained with the same why-didn't-goku-use SSJ1 instead of SSJ3 to fight Pure Boo relation.

I really don't think they're the same thing. Despite what Goku said about Cell being tougher than he thought, they were still very close in power at the time. It's nothing like being eight times weaker than your opponent.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't have the quotes off hand but it was basically regarding who Gero had to absorb to become powerful enough to defeat Vegeta.

Gero said he needed to absorb Gohan , Tenshinhan , and Kuririn to topple Vegeta , or he could just absorb Piccolo again.

So it works out that the distance between Gero and Vegeta , which was sizable , could be closed by Tenshinhan , Gohan and Kuririn , which would mean going by an additive theory, they would have to be pretty damn powerful.

A 50x boost wouldn't cut it in this situation. Heck, even a 10x boost doesn't work either but it gets the claim within reasonable proportions. Vegeta doesn't take Gero all that seriously either which is why I go with that as well.

Don't forget that Dr. Gero would add Gohan's, Kuririn's, and Tenshinhan's energy to his own power. So, it would be Dr. Gero + Gohan + Kuririn + Tenshinhan = Super Saiyan Vegeta.

[Saiga]

So Lash & DBZGTKOSDH, could you give me more information on how you believe FPSS1 works? I have trouble getting where you're coming from. Maybe it would help if you used numbers xD

[Fionordequester]

You know, about Dr. Gero, I wonder, "is he really a reliable source of information?" Because for someone who's so smart, he shows himself to be a bit of a fool, with mistakes such as...

1) Underestimating Goku's strength.

2) Being COMPLETELY wrong about Piccolo's strength.

3) Yelling and threatening beings who could literally crush him in a second with how he was going to deactivate them RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACES!

I mean really, are we totally sure that Dr. Gero wasn't just deluding himself when saying that he could absorb the others to match SSJ Vegeta? Plus, there's the fact that he had already drained a huge energy blast from Vegeta before absorbing the others, so that could account for the 50x multiplier if the battle against Frieza didn't already disprove the x10 theory.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I know Gero has a power scanner, but I wonder if it actually reads powers accurately. He says that Goku's Super Saiyan power is well beyond the calculated level for Goku, but I still wonder if his scanner has a limit. Even as Piccolo was kicking his ass, he was still wondering why he was losing. Or maybe his power scanner couldn't get a good read of Piccolo's power.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I don't have the quotes off hand but it was basically regarding who Gero had to absorb to become powerful enough to defeat Vegeta.

Gero said he needed to absorb Gohan , Tenshinhan , and Kuririn to topple Vegeta , or he could just absorb Piccolo again.

So it works out that the distance between Gero and Vegeta , which was sizable , could be closed by Tenshinhan , Gohan and Kuririn , which would mean going by an additive theory, they would have to be pretty damn powerful.

A 50x boost wouldn't cut it in this situation. Heck, even a 10x boost doesn't work either but it gets the claim within reasonable proportions. Vegeta doesn't take Gero all that seriously either which is why I go with that as well.

Don't forget that Dr. Gero would add Gohan's, Kuririn's, and Tenshinhan's energy to his own power. So, it would be Dr. Gero + Gohan + Kuririn + Tenshinhan = Super Saiyan Vegeta.

Obviously Gero's an idiot. Even with all combined energy from everybody, he wouldn't even be able to lay a finger on Vegeta.