Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:34 pm

The "new" aura appears only when powering-up. The aura never changed before SSFP was introduced, nor it ever changed when a SSG2, SSG3, SS2 or SS3 power-up. Also, every form has its own aura, unchanged aura, except for the SSFP form, which has two types.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:37 pm

Something tells me Trunks was just grade 1.5 when he fought the androids or something. His aura is a constant stand up-ish style while Goku's is a constant traditional flame aura.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Bussani » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:40 pm

freezamite wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Toriyama confirms in this interview that the Super Saiyan gives a x50 increase.
What this interview say is that Toriyama intended to give the original SSJ a 10x bump over Goku's base state, and that the x50 multiplier is a misinterpretation of the manga.
He just says that he drew it with the sense of Goku being ten times what he was, not that the fifty-fold multiplier was a misinterpretation. The exact same guide that's from even lists the x50 multiplier itself.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:46 pm

@Freezamight
There is no way that SSJ can be a 10x multiplier in the Freeza saga, that would make absolutely 0 sense. Kaioken x20 would make SSJ obsolete if that were true and since Goku could only agitate Freeza with a 20x multiplier there is no way he is beating him with a 10x multiplier.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Fox666 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:09 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Something tells me Trunks was just grade 1.5 when he fought the androids or something. His aura is a constant stand up-ish style while Goku's is a constant traditional flame aura.
Not really, there are some differences beetween the regular Super Saiyan and Grade II.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:13 pm

Fox666 wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Something tells me Trunks was just grade 1.5 when he fought the androids or something. His aura is a constant stand up-ish style while Goku's is a constant traditional flame aura.
Not really, there are some differences beetween the regular Super Saiyan and Grade II.
I don't know what to make of then. I guess it could just be a new art style.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:16 pm

It seems best to stick with the 50x multiplier imo.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:16 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Goku's is a constant traditional flame aura.
Except that it's not. Goku had the same aura Trunks displayed, and even the Daizenshuu acknowledged it as a trait of the Super Saiyan Full Power form.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:56 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Goku's is a constant traditional flame aura.
Except that it's not. Goku had the same aura Trunks displayed, and even the Daizenshuu acknowledged it as a trait of the Super Saiyan Full Power form.
Too bad the manga straight up disagrees with you and the Daizenshuus, look:

http://i15.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/3 ... -70915.jpg
http://i5.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/40 ... -70919.jpg
http://i4.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/40 ... -70920.jpg

I rest my case.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:14 pm

I thought I made my self clear when I said that Super Saiyan Full Power has two types of auras. The old, normal flaming aura, and the new, straight up powering up aura.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:19 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I thought I made my self clear when I said that Super Saiyan Full Power has two types of auras. The old, normal flaming aura, and the new, straight up powering up aura.
Too bad that only shows up when powering up just like it does for any SSJ variation. I've never seen a FPSSJ with a constant stand up-ish aura.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Ketchup_Revenge » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:55 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:@Freezamight
There is no way that SSJ can be a 10x multiplier in the Freeza saga, that would make absolutely 0 sense. Kaioken x20 would make SSJ obsolete if that were true and since Goku could only agitate Freeza with a 20x multiplier there is no way he is beating him with a 10x multiplier.
I agree completely, but you're missing something in your argument.

Evidence to SSj being stronger than 20x Kaioken is that Goku completely outclassed 50% Freeza in Super Saiyan, but 50% Freeza was able to disperse 20x Kaioken Goku's kamehameha with a single hand. His feathers got ruffled a bit, but he really hadn't been damaged or wasn't physically thrown off by the attack at all.

The thing you're missing is that Kaioken is dangerous for Goku to use. Every time he uses it, it can potentially kill him. So even if Kaioken was stronger than Super Saiyan (which it isn't), there really wouldn't be a point in using it unless he had no other alternative. It's kind of like using Genki Dama over Kamehameha. It's not practical because it takes too long, and uses up too much energy.

As for the argument, I don't believe that the Super Saiyan PL is fixed, and that 50x is only a resting "base-line" for it. I believe (like base) PLs can be adjusted while in Super Saiyan, but particularly with FPSSj, and not so much regular. Goku may only be 10x when in a resting state in FPSSj, but when he powers up against Cell, I really believe he was 50x or even higher.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:12 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I thought I made my self clear when I said that Super Saiyan Full Power has two types of auras. The old, normal flaming aura, and the new, straight up powering up aura.
Too bad that only shows up when powering up just like it does for any SSJ variation. I've never seen a FPSSJ with a constant stand up-ish aura.
I carefully examined the manga, and no, it doesn't happen to every variation of the Super Saiyan. It first appears on Goku & Gohan in Cell Games, the first time they used Super Saiyan Full Power in battle, and even the Daizenshuu classifies it as a trait to the SSFP. The same aura surrounds Future Trunks, Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, and Vegeta at latter parts of the series, and Goten even displays the "round eyes", another trait that doesn't appear in any other SS form, except for the SSFP form.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Bussani » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:07 am

I think it's interesting how the Super Saiyan aura changed over time. Originally, it looked a bit like a flame, like this:

ImageImage

Even when Vegeta and Trunks show up to fight Semi-Perfect Cell, they still have auras like this. I think the only real exception is when Vegeta first transforms into a Super Saiyan (that we see, anyway), where he has a thicker aura.

After Goku and Gohan emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time, however, the aura is a bit different. Rather than a dull flame, it now looks like jagged streaks of light being emitted from their bodies:

ImageImage

I don't seem to have a picture handy, but Vegeta and Trunks have this same aura at the Cell Game, too. As we know, though, after this point it's also normal for them to gain something more similar to the Grade II aura when they power up or first transform or whatever. This is sort of how Trunks looks throughout his little epilogue, and I agree with TheMightyOzaru about how that's strange, because normally their auras aren't like that constantly unless they're Grade II. That said, there are a few panels where Trunks's aura looks less thick, like here:

Image

So I don't know. I think I can believe that Trunks was just "Full Power" Super Saiyan and that Toriyama was just being weird by drawing his aura constantly like that. After all, Cell has the same aura when he fights him, despite the fact that Imperfect Cell always had the old style Super Saiyan aura before. But in the past, I also tossed around the idea that he could have been using some kind of "Super Saiyan Grade 1.5", so you're not alone there, TheMightyOzaru.
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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by freezamite » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:00 am

Hitiro wrote:Incorrect, it was said in the interview with Toriyama that he hadn't taken into account Kaioken when he was thinking x10 for SSJ. He says in the interview that it made more sense that SSJ was a x50 increase but he drew the fight as if it was a x10 increase.
If the interview is what was posted above, Toriyama NEVER said that. In fact, the only place where I saw this was here in Kanzenshuu, but it wasn't Toriyama, it was all speculation made by the one that wrote the article.
Hitiro wrote:That means nothing, it is more likely that the technique Freeza used to surpass Goku's Kamehameha was just a stronger technique. Like how Goku's(who was stronger than Piccolo) Kamehameha against Raditz was only at a powerlevel of 924 while Piccolo's Makankosappo was at a powerlevel of 1,330. Freeza got in a few blows but Goku was still getting in more punches than him.
It doesn't mean much, but at least it's something. On the other hand, there is absolutely NOTHING to argue in favor of Goku's SSJ strength being greater than Freezer "peak" 100%.
Hitiro wrote:Its not really proven, the ki felt was similar to Goku's SSJ form, it doesn't mean that the strength or amount of ki was the same.
So what do you mean is that when Mecha Freezer and Cold arrived at earth Toriyama felt the need to explain us that Cold was a bit stronger even when that fact didn't affect what happened afterwards, but when Trunks shows himself with a strength big enough to kill Goku SSJ in a single punch, Gohan not only confuses him with his father but not even say something like "It's my father, but now he is a lot stronger than in Namek!"?
Gohan confuses Trunks ki with Goku's because he is as strong as Goku was in Namek, there is no other way Gohan would say what he said.
Hitiro wrote:Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).
Same means same, in quantity and shape. If Trunks was any stronger than Goku, Gohan would have said it.
Hitiro wrote:but if its all the same there is still no proof that you are correct about Saiyan's having a base limit.
Yes it is, or there are I should say. The main fact that proves this is Vegeta turning into SSJ. He clearly explains that he reached his limits, and this is why he enraged against himself and could transform into SSJ.
Furthermore, there are no more zenkay power after the limit is reached (except for Cell), and the definition of a SSJ is a sayan that surpasses the limits that even the strongest sayans can't surpass (chapter 280).
Hitiro wrote:If they did then what use is there for them to be training in their base form? Goku, if you recall, was training in otherworld with weights.
You can train a whole lot of things besides pure strength. And if you remember how much weight he was training with, you will see that his power is at the same level than when he fought freezer (without kaioh kens).
Hitiro wrote:If he's at his limit in his base form there wouldn't be a need for him to train in it.
Well, this is totally incorrect. Not only because DB is a manga where there are more things to train, but because training is also needed to remain at the limit and not weakening oneself.
Hitiro wrote:Fighting against a stronger opponent does make a Saiyan stronger.
Yeah, but Vegeta showed us that this affirmation is very relative and can be perfectly faked (when he hides nearly all his power in order to let Krilin hurt him). If you can auto-induct the zenkay effect lowering your battle power, then there is no way that it does any difference. What gave sayans their power up was coming from a nearly death state that couldn't be self-inducted, but as long as someone knows how to hide his power he will always be able find "stronger opponents" even between normal humans.

Once the limit is reached, the rules applied to the sayans changes a lot.
Hitiro wrote:And as far as Zenkai's are concerned they didn't disappear, the Saiyan's had just grown so strong that Zenkai's only give small boosts.
Sorry, but that not only isn't said anywhere but it can also be proved false when looking at the zenkay Cell had, which was proportionally equal to the ones Vegeta had in Namek (the first ones, not the later ones where he multiplies his strength by ten in a single zenkay).
Hitiro wrote:This is your own assumption, it isn't stated that Vegeta reached FPSSJ. There is no proof that he did or didn't obtain it. If it was based on having a good SSJ form then Gohan should never have gotten weaker as he would still have good control over the form.
Gohan got weaker because he stopped his training, and this made him weaker in a general sense. I do think that his control over his ki was worse than during the Cell games and also that his body was weaker due to lack of training. Everything counts.
Hitiro wrote:I am not debating Gohan wasn't weaker than Super Perfect Cell, but he still managed to hold off Cell's Kamehameha even with half of his Ki. Gohan at 100% would have been still much stronger than Super Perfect Cell.
I also think that Gohan could be a bit stronger than Cell, but you can't compare things when they weren't shown in the same exact conditions. I mean Cell was playing, everybody sensed that he had a lot more energy than Gohan, and if the difference between them had been that big, then there is no way Cell could injure Gohan with a single attack when Gohan was already at his max power form.

What happens is that Cell fires his KameHame with enough delicacy to not kill Gohan too fast, and while he is playing, Vegeta appears and then Gohan attacks from behind.
Hitiro wrote:You need to read the manga again if you don't think he was holding back. He was picking Fat Boo apart and making it look like nothing. Only to buy time for Trunks. Piccolo even mentions that it seems Goku wasn't trying and asked if he could have defeated Fat Boo if he went all out.
Majin Bu wasn't fighting with his maximum power either. But well, we can also go to the final fight of the manga to put things in perspective.
At that fight we see Fat Boo's strength in comparison to the SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2 without its majin power up, and it is clearly stated that the difference isn't huge. Fat Bu can fight against Kid Bu at a much even level than Dodoria fought against Vegeta, and the difference between them wasn't incredible to say the least.
This is like a normal human limit but exaggerated. I mean, if you have never practised any sports the first days of training you will see great improvements, but as you get stronger, you will also see that it becomes more and more difficult to improve, and if you don't stop your training, you will reach a point where no improvement will be made anymore, and training's only purpose will be to maintain yourself at your peak.
Hitiro wrote:Actually according to the interview Toriyama did he agrees 50x is more reasonable.
Just tell me where, because I highly doubt it. The part I was linked before doesn't say anything in that line. Firstly, because this "50x" doesn't take into account Freezer's injuries at all, but even if we consider that injuries doesn't affect Freezer, with a 50x increase there is no way the fight would have lasted more than 5 seconds. Goku could have killed freezer in a single blow, but again, this contradicts a lot of what is drawn in the manga.
Hitiro wrote:Also as I stated there is no proof he regained his full strength.
He couldn't even stand up after the Genkidama, and then when he distransforms again he not only is able to fly at full speed but also to evade one of freezer's attacks.
And on the other hand, the difference between the "50x" interpretation and the "10x" interpretation is not at the fact of Goku regaining his strength. The 50x theory also puts Goku at 50x the power he had at the start of the fight, the difference is that it magically heals Freezer's bounds.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, what he says is that he was going with the x10 multiplier, because the x50 multiplier seemed too much for him. In the same guide that this interview comes from, the SS multiplier is given to be x50. If Toriyama still believed that SS = Base x10, then he would most likely have the authors correct this, since he was the supervisor of the guidebook.
¿Do you really think that Toriyama checks the whole content of the guide before it is published? ¿Like that other guide that gave Raditz a power of 1500 when Gohan with a power of 1300 nearly killed him in one hit?
Guides are guides, and interviews, interviews. What really matters is what Toriyama thinks about that, and he says he drew the manga with a 10x increase in mind, which has sense when compared to what we see in the manga.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku was even more badly injured than Freeza. And later in the series, in Trunks' Timeline (Timeline 2), Goku killed both Mecha Freeza (who was said to be stronger than he was before), and King Cold (who is said to be inferior to Freeza, but not by much). And Freeza wasn't stated to have gotten significantly weaker, and even if he did, he should have recovered his stamina when going Full Power, since he was... at full power.
Goku has a rage crisis, he clearly powers up, so it's not comparable.
About what you say, it's obvious that killing mecha freezer (less than 1.000.000) is not a problem to Goku. About Cold, we do know he was weaker than his son, I would say he was only at 1/2 of his son's power at the very best, and the manga clearly hints that Goku needed the Kaioh Ken x20 to win that fight.
On the other hand, Freeza clearly refers to his lost strength in at least two panels:
The first and the obvious one is when he reappears after being hit by the Genkidama. He clearly says "I'm badly hurt but I can still kill you all". Of course saying this implies he lost strength.
The other one is when the namekians are resuscitated and the sky gets black because of the dragon balls, just before Goku re-appears.

In the manga it happens a lot that someone gets injured before releasing his full power, and doing that doesn't heal anyone. Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku, and Goku still gave him a senzu bean to heal him because the strength lost during the fight it's not regained in any possible way. In the Buu saga, this strength was absorbed by Babidi's ship, in fact.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, it was never stated such thing.
Not only it is said multiple times, but also it is the reason Vegeta became a super sayan. This limit is there, it's well described and even affects at other sayan abilities that disappear.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Like I said before, every Saiyan transformation has a set multiplier:

Oozaru = base x10 (from the manga)
Super Saiyan = base x 50 (from the Daizenshuu & Super Exiting Guides, including Toriyama's interview)
Super Saiyan 2 = SS x2 = base x100 (from the Super Exiting Guides)
Super Saiyan 3 = SS2 x4 = SS x8 = base x400 (from the Super Exiting Guides)

The Toriyama interview is from the Super Exciting Guides by the way, and he is also a supervisor of the guides.
Toriyama supervised the guides the same way he supervised the other products based on his series, and this is, in any way. In the interview he says he wrote the manga with a 10x increase in mind, and that's what matters if then we can read the manga this way and it makes perfect sense.
About the fixed multiplier... ok, do you really think that Goku stayed in SSJ only because he liked himself more in blonde than in dark? Well then, go ahead, but this wasn't the reason it was given in the manga...
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:SS2 = SS x2. And Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan 2 are two different forms, as it was clearly shown in the manga.
Full Power SSJ is a different form of SSJ, and the forms that Vegeta and Trunks achieved also are different forms of SSJ. But they aren't new transformations, they are variations of the SSJ form, improved upon training. Is like comparing Goku in the piccolo saga against the one in the sayan saga. He was the same, but better.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Gohan wasn't killing Cell because he wanted to torture him. If Gohan was going all out from start, he would have destroyed Cell very easily.
Yeah, but again, the difference between them wasn't that high. Gohan killed cell's sons with one single hit because they weren't worth of anything more. When fighting against Cell, he had to put a bit of effort to at leas counter the full-power KameHame Cell launched against him. This is not the 2x difference that there was between Freezer and Vegeta for example, where Vegeta's strongest attack was replied with a normal kick and easily defeated.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Like I mentioned before, SS3 = SS2 x2. And also, the Daizenshuu stated that SS3 draws a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits.
You mean the same guide that gave Raditz a power of 1500? You have to be very cautious with that kind of guides. They are official, of course, but the same could be said about any filler of the anime ever released.

Regards!
Last edited by freezamite on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by Hitiro » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:47 am

freezamite wrote:If the interview is what was posted above, Toriyama NEVER says that. In fact, the only place where I saw this was here in Kanzenshuu, but it wasn't Toriyama, it was all speculation made by the one that wrote the article.
Whoever posted this interview hasn't bothered to do and exact translation. Also it actually even said that the exact words Toriyama uses are: 10x stronger than he could be to that point. Herms also brings up this point in question.
Herms wrote:
The exact words he uses are: 10x stronger than he could be to that point.

For Japanese readers:

中略

ただ当時、スーパーサイヤ人になると、約50倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの10倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。
That's interesting. And still confusing, since Goku as SSJ is only x5 stronger than he could be up to that point, taking Kaio-ken x10 into account, so Toriyama's idea is actually twice as large as the x50 net increase he thought was so huge. But of course, by his own admission he's forgotten most of the story, so I really shouldn't nitpick so.

Is it really written out スーパーサイヤ人 and not 超サイヤ人 with スーパー furigana, like in the manga?
Considering this and we omit the Kaioken x20 because he only used that for a brief second and he had been fighting the whole battle with x10 then Toriyama saying Goku would be x10 stronger than what he could be at the point, which would be Goku + Kaioken x10, would mean Goku was fighting Freeza as if he was using Kaioken x100(If that existed). As Herms said Toriyama was probably forgetting most stuff as there would be no way Goku would be 2x stronger than what we assume SSJ is right now, which is x50.
freezamite wrote:It doesn't mean much, but at least is something. On the other hand, there is absolutely NOTHING to argue in favor of Goku's SSJ strength being greater than Freezer "peak" 100%.
There is nothing to argue Goku magically healed and gained Ki back when he transformed into a SSJ. You are just going off of assumptions. There is also nothing to argue that Freeza's strength is greater than Goku's SSJ. Just because Freeza pushed past Goku's Kamehameha with a ki technique of his own doesn't mean a thing. Perfect Cell is much stronger than Vegeta, taking Vegeta's blows like they were nothing, and yet Vegeta's Final Flash decimated Cell and would have probably killed him had he not dodged most of the impact. And as I stated Goku who was stronger than Piccolo produced a weaker ki technique than him so your argument that Freeza's strength exceeds Goku's just because he pushed past his Kamehameha is a null point.
freezamite wrote:So you mean that when Mecha Freezer and Cold arrived Toriyama felt the need to explain us that Cold was a bit stronger even when that didn't affect what happened afterwards, but when Trunks shows himself with a strength big enough to kill Goku SSJ in a single punch, Gohan not only confuses him with his father but not even say something like "It's my father, but now he is a lot stronger than in Namek!".
Gohan confuse's Trunks ki with Goku's because he is as strong as Goku was in Namek, there is no other way Gohan would say what he said.
Um, Toriyama doesn't specify Cold is a bit stronger?
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P2.3-4
Gohan: “Ku-Kuririn-san, did you notice it!? F-Freeza and ano-another large ki that resembles Freeza…!!”
Kuririn: “Y-yeah…There’s no way I couldn’t notice…ki this huge and gaudy…”
This is the only quote that barely talks about both Freeza and Cold in the same sentence and it doesn't say anything about Cold being stronger. All mentions of Cold state he has a large Ki and that resembles Freeza's. Do you see what I bolded there? It "resembles" Freeza's ki, not in size, not in amount. It's the same as when Gohan is off training on Kaioshins planet. He's not sensed his father as a SSJ3 so how could he know it was his fathers ki? As I've tried to point out to you ki has a signature or identity that allows people to tell others apart. So yes, Gohan did confuse Trunks' ki with Goku's ki because up to this point Gohan has only sensed one SSJ before. Trunks SSJ ki resembled Goku's SSJ ki so Gohan assumed it was his Fathers.
freezamite wrote:Same means same, in quantity and shape. If Trunks was any stronger than Goku, Gohan would have said it.
Why exactly? Gohan new Goku was injured on Namek so Goku wouldn't be fighting with 100% of his power. So why would Gohan feel it necessary to point out that the ki was larger than Goku's on Namek if Gohan assumed that the ki he was sensing was Goku at 100%?
freezamite wrote:Yes it is, or there are I should say. The main fact that proves this is Vegeta turning into SSJ. He clearly explains that he reached his limits, and this is why he enraged against himself and could transform into SSJ.
It is never stated what Vegeta meant by this line, he said he realized his limits. He might not be saying that he had reached the limit of his power. Before he says this he was on about going through stupendous training over and over again. He may have been saying that he realized the limits of his training, as in he couldn't push himself any harder.
freezamite wrote:Furthermore, there are no more zenkay power after the limit is reached (except for Cell), and the definition of a SSJ is a sayan that surpasses the limits that even the strongest sayans can't surpass (chapter 280).
Do you have proof? Cell recieved a huge Zenkai because in the essence of his near death experience it was on a much larger scale than any Saiyan could ever come across. Getting blasted through the stomach and nearly dying is worlds different from being reduced to a single nucleus and nearly dying. You can't compare Cell's Zenkai to any other character in this series because his near death experience is the largest one in the story.
freezamite wrote:You can train a whole lot of things besides pure strength. And then, if you remember what was the weight he was training with, you will see that his power is at the same level than when he fought freezer.
Explain what you mean by this, regardless of what you believe training in any category increases the Ki in ones body in Dragonball. Goku undergoes weight training all throughout Dragonball and his ki only gets larger. So if Goku is training with weights in his base form then his Ki must increase, otherwise if what you're saying about them reaching their limits in their base form is true there is NO NEED for Goku to be weight training in his regular form.
freezamite wrote:Well, this is totally incorrect. Not only because DB is a manga where there are more things to train, but because training is also needed to remain at the limit and not weakening oneself.
So you're saying that if Goku trains in nothing but his SSJ forms then his base form is going to get weaker from not being trained in? That is a silly argument to make. Maybe if we were considering SSJ4 as he gains a new body entirely but in SSJ1, SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku has the exact same body. So if he trains in a SSJ form his base form SHOULDN'T get weaker. And it seems like you completely ignored my quote with Gohan training with the Z Sword and actually getting stronger in his base form. Even Goku recognises Gohan has gotten stronger by training with the Z Sword but he questions if it is enough.
freezamite wrote:Yeah, but Vegeta showed you that this affirmation is very relative when he hides nearly all his power in order to let Krilin to hurt him. If you can auto-induct the zenkay effect lowering your battle power, then there is no way that it does any difference. What gave sayans their power up was coming from a nearly death state, and as long as someone knows how to hide his power battle he can find "stronger opponents" even between normal humans.
This isn't relative at all, Vegeta powered up from a Zenkai in this example, not from fighting an opponent stronger than himself. Vegeta has explicitly said that both fighting a strong opponent and almost dying are methods for a Saiyan to get vast amounts of strength. The reason why Vegeta took the option of getting a Zenkai in the first place is because fighting against Freeza who is a stronger opponent would be a slower method for him to get stronger.
freezamite wrote:Sorry, but that not only isn't said anywhere but it can also be proved false when looking at the zenkay Cell had, which was proportionally equal to the ones Vegeta had in Namek (the first ones, not the later ones where he multiplies his strength by ten in a single time).
As I said earlier Cell's Zenkai was a special case because of the way he nearly died. Vegeta, Goku or any other Saiyan can't be reduced to a single nucleus for a near death experience. Cell is the only one who can so your point is mute.
freezamite wrote:Gohan got weaker because he stopped his training, and this made him weaker in a general sense. I do think that his control over his ki was worse than during the Cell games and also that his body was weaker due to lack of training. Everything counts.
This is also a silly argument. Ki control doesn't worsen over time otherwise Kame Sennin who hadn't of done anything until Fry-Pan Mountain probably wouldn't have been able to fire a Kamehameha.
freezamite wrote:I also think that Gohan could be a bit stronger than Cell, but you can't compare things when they weren't shown in the same exact conditions. I mean Cell was playing, everybody sensed that he had a lot more energy than Gohan, and if the difference between them had been that big, then there is no way Cell could injure Gohan with that single attack when Gohan was already at his max power form.

What happens is that Cell fires his KameHame with enough delicacy to not kill Gohan too fast, and while he is playing Vegeta appears and then Gohan attacks from behind.
Need I remind you Gohan was also holding back in this Kamehameha battle? Goku noticed that he was holding back trying not to destroy the planet. Of course Cell wasn't going full-out but neither was Gohan who was already only fighting back with only half of his ki.
freezamite wrote:Majin Bu wasn't fighting with his maximum power either. But well, we can also go to the final fight of the manga to put things in perspective.
At that fight we see Fat Boo's strength in comparison to the SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2 without its majin power up, and it is clearly stated that the difference isn't that big. Fat Bu can fight against Kid Bu at a much even level than Dodoria fought Vegeta, and the difference between them wasn't that big.
Well for starters Fat Boo was weaker in this fight than when he thought against SSJ3 Goku as the majority of his power came from the evil energy he had inside of him. That was expelled so he lost a good portion of his power from that event. If you remember Fat Buu's strength only really increased when he was angry but that anger vanished when he got rid of Evil Buu. Secondly, who's saying the Majin power up disappeared? Babidi placed the enslavement spell on Vegeta and he also said he'd also unlock his potential while he's at it. They are two individual spells. There is nothing to prove or disprove he's not as strong as he was when he was Majin Vegeta.
freezamite wrote:This is like a normal human limit but exaggerated. I mean, if you never do any sports the first days of training you will see great improvements, but as you get stronger, you will also see that it becomes more and more difficult to improve, and if you don't stop your training, you will reach a point where no improvement will be made anymore, and training's only purpose will be to maintain yourself at your peak.
This isn't true, in sports athletes are always trying to better themselves. They don't believe in hitting a peak. The only time they consider someone reaching a peak is after they start to get worse from age, in that context their peak was the highest level they obtained in their life.
freezamite wrote:Just tell me where, because I highly doubt it. The part I was linked before doesn't say anything in that line.
Pretty sure it was mentioned on here but I can't find the exact quote at this moment in time, I will look around for it.
freezamite wrote:Firstly, because this "50x" doesn't take into accound Freezer's injuries at all, but even if we consider that injuries doesn't affect Freezer, with a 50x increase there is no way the fight would have lasted more than 5 seconds. Goku could have killed freezer in a single blow, but again, this contradicts a lot of what is drawn in the manga.
There you go again, assuming Goku's injuries don't play a role in the fight. Assuming Goku did heal from the SSJ transformation and it does only give him a x10 boost why does Goku not just revert to his base form and blast Freeza with a Kamehameha in Kaioken x20? You're assuming Goku is on par with Freeza so if he uses Kaioken x20 he'll be nearly 2x stronger than him so he could pick him apart. And why do you assume that if Freeza and Goku were fighting at 100% Goku would decimate Freeza with a x50 increase? a x50 increase would only make him 25% stronger than Freeza. That's practically nothing in comparison to any of the other fights that have happened in DBZ. Raditz was over 1,200 while Goku and Piccolo were a little over 400. Raditz was at most 3x stronger than them. And this also goes back to how damaged Goku was, if he was more damaged than Freeza (Which he was) then that 25% gap is going to be smaller.
freezamite wrote:He couldn't even stand up after the Genkidama, and then when he distransforms again he not only is able to fly at full speed but also to evade one of freezer's attacks.
And on the other hand, the difference between the "50x" interpretation and the "10x" interpretation is not in the fact of Goku regaining his strength. The 50x theory also puts Goku at 50x the power he had at the start of the fight, the difference is that it magically heals Freezer's bounds.
There is a thing called adrenaline that can keep someone moving after they've reached their limit. That doesn't mean his ki instantly shot back up to its original strength. It only means his body was moving a little bit better. And he didn't "evade" Freeza's attack in base form, he turned and it caught his cheek just brushing past him. Not that it matters if he did dodge it or not because as Goku stated before he started flying way from Freeza, Freeza's Ki was beginning to drop fast, we see this as Goku starts to beat on him without any problems in the last couple of panels before this. I also don't see why flying should matter with his bodies condition. The only thing that matters for flying is ki. Do you not recall the fight between Piccolo and Goku and the Tenkaichi Budokai? Goku had his arms and legs destroyed, had practically no energy left and he had a massive hole in his chest yet he still managed to fly with what ki had remaining. In the fight against Raditz he had broken ribs and he was still able to hold an enemy stronger than him.

Finally as I said I don't believe Goku regained his strength from transforming. Goku was injured more than Freeza and Freeza was also injured quite a bit but nothing in comparison to Goku. You seem to be forgetting that Freeza was killing people left, right and centre after the Genki Dama hit him. Its not like he was extremely weakened to the point that he could only use 30% of his power. Even if by some chance SSJ healed Goku and gave him back his ki do you really think its going to give him back 100% of it?
freezamite wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Like I mentioned before, SS3 = SS2 x2. And also, the Daizenshuu stated that SS3 draws a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits.
You mean the same guide that gave Raditz a power of 1500? You have to be very cautious with that kind of guides. They are official, of course, but the same could be said about any filler of the anime ever released.

Regards!
Guides can make mistakes and nothing contradicts Raditz having a powerlevel of 1,500.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 215 (DBZ 21), P1.3
Context: after Tenshinhan beats a Saibaiman
Nappa: “"I'm-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!! Going just by power, he rivals Raditz...!!"
Vegeta: “So [Tenshinhan]'s battle power surpasses that. A simple calculation.”
This says that just by power the Saibaiman's rival Raditz but it doesn't state if they're talking about actual battle power or just power as in strength. And any attacks close to equalling a persons battle power up to this point have been moves that could kill them. So the fact that Raditz died by Piccolo's attack means nothing. I prefer to think of him as around 1,200+ but nothing indicates that he isn't 1,500.

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Re: Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:10 pm

freezamite wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, what he says is that he was going with the x10 multiplier, because the x50 multiplier seemed too much for him. In the same guide that this interview comes from, the SS multiplier is given to be x50. If Toriyama still believed that SS = Base x10, then he would most likely have the authors correct this, since he was the supervisor of the guidebook.
¿Do you really think that Toriyama checks the whole content of the guide before it is published?
It's his job as a supervisor, so yes?

¿Like that other guide that gave Raditz a power of 1500 when Gohan with a power of 1300 nearly killed him in one hit?
Nearly killed him? He didn't even break his bones.

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku was even more badly injured than Freeza. And later in the series, in Trunks' Timeline (Timeline 2), Goku killed both Mecha Freeza (who was said to be stronger than he was before), and King Cold (who is said to be inferior to Freeza, but not by much). And Freeza wasn't stated to have gotten significantly weaker, and even if he did, he should have recovered his stamina when going Full Power, since he was... at full power.
Goku has a rage crisis, he clearly powers up, so it's not comparable.
About what you say, it's obvious that killing mecha freezer (less than 1.000.000) is not a problem to Goku. About Cold, we do know he was weaker than his son, I would say he was only at 1/2 of his son's power at the very best, and the manga clearly hints that Goku needed the Kaioh Ken x20 to win that fight.
Why would Mecha Freeza, who is stated to be stronger than he was before, be less than 1.000.000?

On the other hand, Freeza clearly refers to his lost strength in at least two panels:
The first and the obvious one is when he reappears after being hit by the Genkidama. He clearly says "I'm badly hurt but I can still kill you all". Of course saying this implies he lost strength.
This is what he actually says:
Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P10.3, P12.1
Context: after getting hit with the Genki-Dama
Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, there’s still no way I’ll be done-in by the likes of you!”
You are using the shitty scanlations as you reference? Because you shouldn't, they are terrible.

The other one is when the namekians are resuscitated and the sky gets black because of the dragon balls, just before Goku re-appears.
What he says is that he will loose power from the planet's explosion, which is irrelevant to our discussion.

In the manga it happens a lot that someone gets injured before releasing his full power, and doing that doesn't heal anyone. Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku, and Goku still gave him a senzu bean to heal him because the strength lost during the fight it's not regained in any possible way. In the Buu saga, this strength was absorbed by Babidi's ship, in fact.
But Freeza admitted himself that he was using 100% of his power. That was all of his power. But you are saying that Freeza wasn't using all of his power. True, Freeza most likely lost some power fron the Genki Dama, but he actually recovered all of his strength when he went Full Power.

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, it was never stated such thing.
Not only it is said multiple times, but also it is the reason Vegeta became a super sayan. This limit is there, it's well described and even affects at other sayan abilities that disappear.
Vegeta said that he reached his limit, but later he got stronger. He was wrong, like Kuririn was wrong when he told Saichouro that he has reached his limit, right before Saichouro drew out Kuririn's dormant power, that made Kuririn a lot stronger.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Like I said before, every Saiyan transformation has a set multiplier:

Oozaru = base x10 (from the manga)
Super Saiyan = base x 50 (from the Daizenshuu & Super Exiting Guides, including Toriyama's interview)
Super Saiyan 2 = SS x2 = base x100 (from the Super Exiting Guides)
Super Saiyan 3 = SS2 x4 = SS x8 = base x400 (from the Super Exiting Guides)

The Toriyama interview is from the Super Exciting Guides by the way, and he is also a supervisor of the guides.
Toriyama supervised the guides the same way he supervised the other products based on his series, and this is, in any way. In there intview he says he wrote the manga with a 10x increase in mind, and that's what matters if then we can read the manga this way and it makes perfect sense.
If he really thought that the SS multiplier is x10 instead of x50, then the SEG's authors would have corrected the SS = base x50.
And stop saying that the x10 makes perfect sense, because it doesn't. You are trying to make it seems like it makes sense.

About the fixed multiplier... ok, do you really think that Goku stayed in SSJ only because he liked himself more in blonde than in dark? Well then, go ahead, but this wasn't the reason it was given in the manga...
The reason he stayed like this is to eliminate the two weaknesses of the Super Saiyan form: to stop the ki consumption, and to have a clear mind instead of an enraged mind. And he succeed, along with Gohan.

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:SS2 = SS x2. And Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan 2 are two different forms, as it was clearly shown in the manga.
Full Power SSJ is a different form of SSJ, and the forms that Vegeta and Trunks achieved also are different forms of SSJ. But they aren't new transformations, they are variations of the SSJ form, improved upon training. Is like comparing Goku in the piccolo saga against the one in the sayan saga. He was the same, but better.
In the manga, Grade 2 & 3 are referred as transformations.
When fighting against Cell, he had to put a bit of effort to at leas counter the full-power KameHame Cell launched against him. This is not the 2x difference that there was between Freezer and Vegeta for example, where Vegeta's strongest attack was replied with a normal kick and easily defeated.
Gohan made a small Kamehameha and countered Cell's huge Kamehameha. It almost destroyed Cell. Gohan could kill Cell whenever he wanted, he just didn't do it because he wanted to humiliate him.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Like I mentioned before, SS3 = SS2 x2. And also, the Daizenshuu stated that SS3 draws a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits.
You mean the same guide that gave Raditz a power of 1500? You have to be very cautious with that kind of guides. They are official, of course, but the same could be said about any filler of the anime ever released.
The Adventure Special, the Daizenshuu (except for 3, 5, 6, and parts of 7), the Kanzenban Official Guides, and the Super Exciting Guides are guidebooks exclusively about the manga, while the anime is an adaptation.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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