Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Yet Goku was fighting him in base which implies that his base is several of times stronger than Freeza. I don't believe for one minute that Goku's base has reached his limit ever since going SSJ for the first time. If you train your SSJ stages, your base also grows stronger with them by default. With all that training, how is Goku still weaker than Freeza in base?
Where was any of that stated? His base barely grew at all after the Cell saga. We have confirmation that Freeza>Goku Base. Oob slowly brought out his power, Notice how during the Kiai his eyes changed color to symbolize that's when he used a lot more of his hidden power.
His base barely growing contradicts the multipliers. Unless your willing to believe that multipliers don't apply to going SSJ and something else happens. Besides, I thought it was common sense that training with your SSJ levels increases your base by default.
It's not stated anywhere.
SSJ Kid Gohan wasn't much stronger than SSJ Goku at the Cell games. After training for seven years in the Other World Goku is not that much stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan, meaning he didn't increase his base strength up that much. This is confirmed when Piccolo says Majin Vegeta who is equal to SSJ2 Goku is perhaps stronger than Gohan was back then. Vegeta says Goku is stronger then Gohan was back then. This confirms that Goku's base barely went up at all and that Goku is still in the same realm of power that SSJ2 Kid Gohan had.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
hleV wrote:↑ It's unknown how much Gohan's rage boosted his SS2, so you can't say that Goku didn't increase his base much in 7 years.
I doubt Gohan had any more than a 2x boost at best.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
I doubt Gohan had any more than a 2x boost at best.
I don't care whether you doubt it or not. It's simply unknown so you can't make a valid estimation that would prove your point.
It's arguable if Gohan had a rage boost on top of SSJ2 at all. Several lists don't even include one.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Ask Kaboom. He's one of the guys who doesn't include the boost. Gohan was said to be holding back in beam struggle as well So that would mean he was using even less ki. You can even say the rage boost only came during the Kamehameha struggle. You can say Gohan only overcame Cell because of the distraction before Cell could put in more power.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Yet Goku was fighting him in base which implies that his base is several of times stronger than Freeza. I don't believe for one minute that Goku's base has reached his limit ever since going SSJ for the first time. If you train your SSJ stages, your base also grows stronger with them by default. With all that training, how is Goku still weaker than Freeza in base?
Oob probably didn't went full power (aka Pure Boo/SS3 Goku tier) from the moment he got angry. IMO, his power slowly increased over time, and he powered-up to full power when he used the Kiai (Daizenshuu 7 states that his power increased when he used the Kiai).
hleV wrote:↑ It's unknown how much Gohan's rage boosted his SS2, so you can't say that Goku didn't increase his base much in 7 years.
We do know that the increase is less than x2. As I told you before:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
hleV wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Cell Games SS Goku was less than 2 times weaker than Cell Games SS Gohan, and Boo arc SS Goku was less than 2 times stronger than Boo arc SS Gohan.
How?
For Cell Games Goku & Gohan: It's obvious that there is not a huge difference in their powers, since Goku was mainly relying on Gohan's hidden powers.
For Boo arc Goku & Gohan: Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are treated as being in the same category by Dabra & Kaioshin, and Goku considered to use Fusion with Gohan, so there isn't a very huge difference in their powers.
Except if I'm wrong somewhere.
dbzfan7 wrote:It's arguable if Gohan had a rage boost on top of SSJ2 at all.
How? Gohan wanted to get angry so that he could be as strong as he was back in the Cell Games in Boo arc. And SP Cell wasn't as strong as SS Gohan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
dbzfan7 wrote:It's arguable if Gohan had a rage boost on top of SSJ2 at all.
How? Gohan wanted to get angry so that he could be as strong as he was back in the Cell Games in Boo arc. And SP Cell wasn't as strong as SS Gohan.
Ask Kaboom. His list has no rage boost for Gohan.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Just because there is no canon that does not mean something can't be canon to the manga or anime. A lot of franchises have no canon as well, but not everything can exist in the same continuity. When it comes to manga/anime that something not created by the original creator or has his/her involvement in it then it's not view as canon expect for a few from what I've seen. It's different with American series like Marvel, DC, Image and Star Wars because those are still on going and are control by the company. They can move on past their original creator while manga can end at anytime.
Rocketman wrote:Is it in the 42 volumes? No? Then it can choke itself on its own shit and die.
So stuff can't be added to the continuity of something now?
Not when it's as terrible as BoG.
That's entirely subjective.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Never said it wasn't. It's just the notion that something shouldn't be canon if you don't like it, that's what I don't agree with. The Star Wars prequels are canon, and that's not changing anytime soon.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Rocketman wrote:Star Wars specifically has a canon, though. Dragonball does not.
I'm aware, I'm just saying disregarding what you don't like isn't the way things should be done.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Eh... It just doesn't seem right to disregard something simply because you dislike it. I borderline dislike the Buu arc, yet I acknowledge it's place in the continuity.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I borderline dislike the Buu arc, yet I acknowledge it's place in the continuity.
Thats because you have too... its part of the manga.
When it comes to Dragon Ball and Canon the only things that are "Subjective" are the things that didn't happen in the Manga be it movies, specials, games or anime continuations.
The manga is the only one true canon, everything else is subjective.
Battle of Gods, Yo Son Goku and his friends return, The Other World Tournament... those thing were never shown in or talked about in the manga so people can pick and choose what they want to add to the original story.
Personally I like just about everything and consider whatever doesn't contradict with the manga too much to be canon.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels
goku the krump dancer wrote:Thats because you have too... its part of the manga.
In the manga or not, no one really has to acknowledge anything.
You'd be surprised at the number of people I used to know who didn't consider anything after Freeza part of Dragon Ball's story. Not sure if they have changed their tune the the past couple of years though, been out of touch.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)
