The Common Enemy
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
The Common Enemy
Goku has been known for becoming friends with his enemies after teaming up against a stronger opponent, or doing something that requires another's help.
Goku and Yamcha became friends after fighting against Pilaf and Co.
Goku and Kuririn became friends after enduring Muten Roshi's training together, which humbled a cocky kuririn.
Goku and Tenshinhan, along with Chaozu, became friends after teaming up against King Piccolo, Goku had earned Tenshinhan's respect, but they were hardly friends.
Goku and Piccolo worked together against Raditz and would've held off their feud against the Saiyans until he died. By the time Piccolo fused with Nail he had no desire to kill Goku.
Goku and Vegeta worked together through the Android Saga, and became friends after the Buu Saga.
These are all examples of common enemies and challenges causing the Z-senshi to befriend one another.
Given the right Circumstances, do you think with a common enemy, Freeza and Cell could've changed? Vegeta did and after being in awe time after time of greater powers, even though he was still cocky, he eventually became somewhat humbled and much less malevolent.
Goku and Yamcha became friends after fighting against Pilaf and Co.
Goku and Kuririn became friends after enduring Muten Roshi's training together, which humbled a cocky kuririn.
Goku and Tenshinhan, along with Chaozu, became friends after teaming up against King Piccolo, Goku had earned Tenshinhan's respect, but they were hardly friends.
Goku and Piccolo worked together against Raditz and would've held off their feud against the Saiyans until he died. By the time Piccolo fused with Nail he had no desire to kill Goku.
Goku and Vegeta worked together through the Android Saga, and became friends after the Buu Saga.
These are all examples of common enemies and challenges causing the Z-senshi to befriend one another.
Given the right Circumstances, do you think with a common enemy, Freeza and Cell could've changed? Vegeta did and after being in awe time after time of greater powers, even though he was still cocky, he eventually became somewhat humbled and much less malevolent.
- RandomGuy96
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
- Location: San Diego, California, USA
Re: The Common Enemy
Freeza had a business to run; he'd be doing so his whole life and I doubt he'd ever leave it for anything. So no, I don't think he was ever going to stop being a genocidal prick. Truth be told, neither did Vegeta, really, it's just that unlike Freeza he didn't have a place to go, and so thought that Earth would be a nice place to stay. He expresses no regret for his actions and goes back to being evil the first time being the strongest is in his reach.
Cell would at best just go back to fighting the heroes after it was all over. Didn't he say he was "programmed" to be evil?
Cell would at best just go back to fighting the heroes after it was all over. Didn't he say he was "programmed" to be evil?
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
- Monkey D Goku
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:44 am
- Location: Other world
Re: The Common Enemy
I think Vegeta had a connection with Earth. Even if he never consciously thought about it. Maybe the Z fighters reminded him of the sayians.
Frieza seems far too malevolent to change. He was always born with power and therefore probably never faced any struggles in his life until Goku came up.
All most every single Z fighter who was once evil faced some kind of struggle.
Cell is in the same boat as Frieza.
Frieza seems far too malevolent to change. He was always born with power and therefore probably never faced any struggles in his life until Goku came up.
All most every single Z fighter who was once evil faced some kind of struggle.
Cell is in the same boat as Frieza.
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear Leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering - Yoda
I use to be a adventurer like you,till I took an arrow in the knee - Generic Skyrim Guard
I use to be a adventurer like you,till I took an arrow in the knee - Generic Skyrim Guard
Re: The Common Enemy
There is a fanfiction regarding change for Cell, it's called Honor Trip. In the final battle, SSJ2 Gohan kicks him in the head in the exact same place Son Goku landed on as a baby. Alternatively I suppose if Cell was able to be captured and Bulma experimented, they could find a way to make him good, since it's his programming that makes him act that way.
Freeza is a lost cause. You'd have to take everything, throw him at rock bottom, and maybe he would change in a couple decades. And Bulma's love and his children at least kept Vegeta from killing everyone on Earth.
Freeza is a lost cause. You'd have to take everything, throw him at rock bottom, and maybe he would change in a couple decades. And Bulma's love and his children at least kept Vegeta from killing everyone on Earth.
- Hellspawn28
- Patreon Supporter
- Posts: 15200
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
- Location: Maryland, USA
Re: The Common Enemy
Buu and #18 also became good as well. Someone like Freeza would not become good since his whole family was evil and Cell was born evil as well. I think the other villains like Bebi, the Shadow Dragons and the movie DBZ villains (maybe possibly Broli) are in the same boat as well.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
- RandomGuy96
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
- Location: San Diego, California, USA
Re: The Common Enemy
I don't think Buu really counts, since he only becomes good by expelling the physical embodiment of his evil. Anyone could become good if they had that ability. Though now I'm wondering if Super Buu ever could've stopped being evil (or at least could've agreed not to kill everyone/switch sides) without physically regressing into another form. Probably not.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: The Common Enemy
I think given Freeza and Cell's alpha mentality (Cell's coming in no small part from Freeza himself) would prevent them from actually being friends even if there were a common enemy because the relationship would dissolve shortly after their united efforts with anyone. Unless they could become equal in strength in the end their relationship would really have disolved given Freeza's need for self identification with being stronger than others, unless Freeza had a change of heart which seems diametrically opposed to that character's structuring.
"You might think you know everything there is to know about me, but really, you're not even CLOSE."
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." ~ Sir Winston Chruchill / Dragon Ball Z in a nutshell
How I enjoy the anime:
"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." ~ Sir Winston Chruchill / Dragon Ball Z in a nutshell
How I enjoy the anime:
Spoiler:
- Cursed Lemon
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1377
- Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:29 pm
- Location: Location, Location
- Contact:
Re: The Common Enemy
Vegeta became an ally due to a somewhat tragic backstory - his evil was the result of a vast amount of psychological baggage. Cell and Freeza are straightforwardly malicious.
I suppose Android 18 is a good example of goodness coming out of what was originally bloodlust, since nothing actually changed 18s heart aside from Krillin's compassion (and perhaps the fact that by the end of the Cell saga, everybody could whomp on her).
I suppose Android 18 is a good example of goodness coming out of what was originally bloodlust, since nothing actually changed 18s heart aside from Krillin's compassion (and perhaps the fact that by the end of the Cell saga, everybody could whomp on her).
Special Beam Cannon!
(゚Д゚)σ 弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌⊃
(゚Д゚)σ 弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌⊃
- Polyphase Avatron
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 6643
- Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am
Re: The Common Enemy
Will probably happen with Bills in the next movie.
Then he can get into an eating contest with Goku and Vegeta.
Then he can get into an eating contest with Goku and Vegeta.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147
-
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 348
- Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:52 am
Re: The Common Enemy
Throw Buu and Yajirobe in as well
- TheMightyOzaru
- Banned
- Posts: 6255
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:50 pm
- Location: Capsule Corp
Re: The Common Enemy
I highly doubt Freeza would have changed to be honest. Cell, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, but it's still a long shot. Last I checked Cell was "programmed" to be evil so....
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
Youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Re: The Common Enemy
Cell I could eventually becoming a ally in the same way Vegeta did. Cell loved to fight and test himself and he'd have seen Goku (or Gohan) as a rival to surpass.
Frieza however no I don't think he'd have ever have turned good.
Frieza however no I don't think he'd have ever have turned good.
- Polyphase Avatron
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 6643
- Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am
Re: The Common Enemy
I read a fanfic where he decided not to attack Goku at the end of their fight and flew into space to survive and turned good.Bullza wrote:Cell I could eventually becoming a ally in the same way Vegeta did. Cell loved to fight and test himself and he'd have seen Goku (or Gohan) as a rival to surpass.
Freeza however no I don't think he'd have ever have turned good.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147
Re: The Common Enemy
I don't see Freeza "Turning good", per se, but a fragile Enemy Mine type alliance, or maybe eventually just annoying him until he realizes his reputation would do better if he let Goku quietly fade into the shadows rather than get attention for fighting him... I could see Freeza not-dying that way, at least.
It would be hard to pull off without seeming contrived, though. For example, say Freeza has to deal with Buu attacking his territories, and Goku and co are already involved. Freeza seems like the type to betray Goku at great risk to himself, a little like Vegeta going Majin (I see Freeza unwilling to give Babidi authority over his empire just for beating Goku, unless he already had one foot in the grave, but there are plenty of ways to betray someone.).
Freeza's real problem is his inability to know when he's beaten. Even Vegeta, famous for his pride and arrogance, got the hell out of dodge when he was sufficiently roughed up on Earth. Freeza refused to retreat, like, ever, which says a lot about resources and military happenings over his career. (Or maybe it just says "Most powerful being in the universe does what it wants".)
Possibly, a good way to handle FRENEMY!Freeza would be to get him caught up in the mess with Gero, instead of lathe'd by Trunks. I say possibly; I'm not sure how that wouldn't just end in Freeza offering Gero a position in his army if he can kill Goku, or something.
But, yeah, if Freeza wound up enemies with Gero/his creations, I could see him leaving after Goku dies in the Cell Games, passing it off as his victory, and leaving no one the wiser.
It would be hard to pull off without seeming contrived, though. For example, say Freeza has to deal with Buu attacking his territories, and Goku and co are already involved. Freeza seems like the type to betray Goku at great risk to himself, a little like Vegeta going Majin (I see Freeza unwilling to give Babidi authority over his empire just for beating Goku, unless he already had one foot in the grave, but there are plenty of ways to betray someone.).
Freeza's real problem is his inability to know when he's beaten. Even Vegeta, famous for his pride and arrogance, got the hell out of dodge when he was sufficiently roughed up on Earth. Freeza refused to retreat, like, ever, which says a lot about resources and military happenings over his career. (Or maybe it just says "Most powerful being in the universe does what it wants".)
Possibly, a good way to handle FRENEMY!Freeza would be to get him caught up in the mess with Gero, instead of lathe'd by Trunks. I say possibly; I'm not sure how that wouldn't just end in Freeza offering Gero a position in his army if he can kill Goku, or something.
But, yeah, if Freeza wound up enemies with Gero/his creations, I could see him leaving after Goku dies in the Cell Games, passing it off as his victory, and leaving no one the wiser.
Dr Gero, in Budokai 2 wrote:Go, my Saiba Rangers!
Akira Toriyama, in Son Goku Densetsu wrote:You really can’t go by rumors (laughs).
- RandomGuy96
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
- Location: San Diego, California, USA
Re: The Common Enemy
Could Super Buu ever have allied with the protagonists, or is it just in his nature to always be evil? I'm wondering that, because Super Buu himself only exists because he's the evil form of Fat Buu. Could he convinced to have an uneasy alliance with the protagonists even while staying evil, kind of like Vegeta?
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
- Hellspawn28
- Patreon Supporter
- Posts: 15200
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
- Location: Maryland, USA
Re: The Common Enemy
If Buu won against Grey Buu then maybe he could have turn into a good version of Super Buu. It would make a pretty cool what if story though.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
- Jackal puFF
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:24 pm
- Contact:
Re: The Common Enemy
Cell has more of chance of becoming good than Frieza that's for sure. Can someone really be programed to be evil? Maybe brainwashed by Gero's Computer. I mean the androids were supposed to be evil but yeah...
Listen to my new song
https://open.spotify.com/artist/11ztclIGl8JomGApKSvECe
https://open.spotify.com/artist/11ztclIGl8JomGApKSvECe
- PolatGuy92
- Newbie
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:40 pm
- Location: The Netherlands
Re: The Common Enemy
It's kinda hard for me to imagine the major villains as good guys especially Frieza! I mean Frieza a good guy? yikes...
Cell on the other hand don't know since he was programmed to be evil but maybe he can be a good guy if someone like Bulma and her father try to convince him to be a good guy
Not really a opinion about the Evil/Super Buu and Kid Buu was pure evil and later reincarnated into Uub but Super Buu had some goodness since the Fat Majin Buu was inside and I thought the Supreme kais also had to do with him to make him less evil.
Cell on the other hand don't know since he was programmed to be evil but maybe he can be a good guy if someone like Bulma and her father try to convince him to be a good guy
Not really a opinion about the Evil/Super Buu and Kid Buu was pure evil and later reincarnated into Uub but Super Buu had some goodness since the Fat Majin Buu was inside and I thought the Supreme kais also had to do with him to make him less evil.
- Steven Perry
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1186
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:27 am
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Re: The Common Enemy
Well Freeza and Cell seem like pretty close buddies down in HFIL, don't they team up to try and take Goku down in GT? Perhaps getting killed and doing time in Hell changes even the most hardened of villians, and is perhaps the only circumstance under which change and willingness to team up could ever come about for one. I can't see Freeza putting his ego aside to enlist the help of Cell.
- RandomGuy96
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
- Location: San Diego, California, USA
Re: The Common Enemy
Presumambly, Mr. Buu would just be Fat Buu again if that happened.Hellspawn28 wrote:If Buu won against Grey Buu then maybe he could have turn into a good version of Super Buu. It would make a pretty cool what if story though.
Someone needs to write a fan fiction on this. I mean Freeza and Cell both have redemption fics, why not Super Buu?
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.