Saiyan Saga plot hole?

[Polyphase Avatron]

They tried using Shenron to wish to kill Nappa and Vegeta, but he couldn't, since they were stronger than Kami.

But then why didn't they instead wish for their ships to disappear/explode, which would make them suffocate to death in space?

Did they just not think of that?

[Blade]

They tried using Shenron to wish to kill Nappa and Vegeta, but he couldn't, since they were stronger than Kami.

But then why didn't they instead wish for their ships to disappear/explode, which would make them suffocate to death in space?

Did they just not think of that?

It's just another case of the "Why not just wish for more wishes?" conundrum - in that either the characters in Dragonball are deliberately supposed to be so unintelligent as to never consider the idea, or the likely reason, that Toriyama wrote the story on-the-fly without any real thought for the wider implication of events in the narrative.

I mean, Toriyama at least made some effort to limit the power of the Dragonballs by throwing in rules here and there, but at the end of the day the guy's writing is basically a narrative history of a cascade of deus ex machina. He was never going to be able to rein things in comprehensively - as it just went against how he worked.

[rereboy]

They tried using Shenron to wish to kill Nappa and Vegeta, but he couldn't, since they were stronger than Kami.

But then why didn't they instead wish for their ships to disappear/explode, which would make them suffocate to death in space?

Did they just not think of that?

In universe, they simply weren't clever enough to think of that.

Out of universe, because of plot reasons.

"Why not just wish for more wishes?" conundrum -

Well, I doubt that that wish could be granted. That only really works when there's no limit for the wishes. But there's really no reason for why wishing for the destruction of their ships would not work.

[Blade]

Well, I doubt that that wish could be granted.

Based on what? It's never stated whether it would or wouldn't work, but what we do know is that no one ever tries. If the Dragon has the power to restore a whole planet, revive the dead or grant immortality - then why is it implausible that it's beyond its power to grant extra wishes?

But there's really no reason for why wishing for the destruction of their ships would not work.

My point, rereboy, is that there are a lot of occasions when the Dragon could have been utilised differently - but a combination of Toriyama never fully exploring or wanting to elaborate on the extent of the Dragon's capabilities mean that there are many instances where we can question the reasons as to why wishes weren't handled differently - the example I gave just being one of these.

But there are, of course, many others - such as (but in no way restricted to): "Increase my power by X amount", "Seal X enemy away somewhere where he can't harm anyone anymore", "Erase X enemy's memories and make him forget why he wants to cause harm", "Give X enemy (or cure X protagonist of) an incurable heart disease (see what I did there?)" and so on...

[rereboy]

Based on what? It's never stated whether it would or wouldn't work, but what we do know is that no one ever tries. If the Dragon has the power to restore a whole planet, revive the dead or grant immortality - then why is it implausible that it's beyond its power to grant extra wishes?

Because its very well defined that there are limits to what can be granted. That particular logic works only when there are no limits to the wishes. Its like: "I will grant you one wish!" "Will you grant me anything?" "Yes, you can ask anything at all!" "Then, I wish for more wishes".

In DB its not like that. Its more like: "Will you grant me anything?" "No, I can't grant you things that surpass the power of my creator, I can't grant the same exact wish more than once, if the wish is to revive a large number of people, I can only revive the ones who died at most one year ago, etc". "Then I suppose asking for more wishes wouldn't work, huh?" "Nope".

[Blade]

In DB its not like that. Its more like: "Will you grant me anything?" "No, I can't grant you things that surpass the power of my creator, I can't grant the same exact wish more than once, if the wish is to revive a large number of people, I can only revive the ones who died at most one year ago, etc". "Then I suppose asking for more wishes wouldn't work, huh?" "Nope".

Whilst it's established that there are limits, they are are poorly defined, never fully explored or retconned as the story progresses.

Besides, to say that the power of the Dragonballs cannot exceed the power of their creator would be imply that Kami could restore people to life, and that Guru could revive entire planets - which we already know isn't true, that's totally beyond their power. Back when Kami literally was God as far as Toriyama was concerned, that particular logic would make sense - but as we know it was more or less superseded and retconned as the story progressed.

Basically: the in-universe logic is tangled and flawed. You can't really argue with what I'm saying using in-universe examples that are already contradictions, you're wasting your time.

[rereboy]

Whilst it's established that there are limits, they are are poorly defined, never fully explored or retconned as the story progresses.

Besides, to say that the power of the Dragonballs cannot exceed the power of their creator would be imply that Kami could restore people to life, and that Guru could revive entire planets - which we already know isn't true, that's totally beyond their power. Back when Kami literally was God as far as Toriyama was concerned, that particular logic would make sense - but as we know it was more or less superseded and retconned as the story progressed.

Basically: the in-universe logic is tangled and flawed. You can't really argue with what I'm saying using in-universe examples that are already contradictions, you're wasting your time.

I stated that I doubted that it would work. Not that it would definitely fail. And I based my opinion on the fact that your example is thought up for wishes without limits, while the wishes granted by the Dragon Balls are grounded in their power by various limitations, which makes the chances of the Dragon Balls being able to grant something as abusive of their own power as granting more wishes fairly slim, IMO.

So, I don't think I'm wasting any time by stating my opinion, which happens to be perfectly reasonable and logical.

[Pantalones]

They couldn't wish for Shenlong to destroy their ships because it would be essentially the exact same thing as just wishing for the Saiyans to die, which was already established as something Shenlong couldn't do. I'm guessing that you just can't "cheat" your way around the rule like that.

But yeah, the "within the creator's power" rule is kind of iffy considering all the things the Dragonballs get used for later on. I guess it'd probably make more sense to say that the power of the Dragonballs is proportional to the creator's power, and that (just like the Dragon Clan Nameks who made them) they're a lot better at creation/healing than they are at destruction (hence being able to restore a life or even an entire planet, but at the same time not being able to kill a couple of guys with a power level in the multi-thousands.) To put it in numbers, you could say their destructive potential caps out somewhere in the 300-600 power level range (closer down to where Kami himself probably is), while their potential for granting wishes of creation/restoration goes way, way, waaaay beyond that level.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Did they even know that the Saiyans were traveling for 1 year?

[Polyphase Avatron]

They couldn't wish for Shenlong to destroy their ships because it would be essentially the exact same thing as just wishing for the Saiyans to die, which was already established as something Shenlong couldn't do. I'm guessing that you just can't "cheat" your way around the rule like that.

But it wouldn't be the power of the dragonballs killing them, it would be the lack of oxygen in space.

[UltimateHammerBro]

This reminds me so much of DBZ Abridged.
You know, you could just ask ME, the Magical Dragon, to send them to an asteroid field.

[Kamiccolo9]

They couldn't wish for Shenlong to destroy their ships because it would be essentially the exact same thing as just wishing for the Saiyans to die, which was already established as something Shenlong couldn't do. I'm guessing that you just can't "cheat" your way around the rule like that.

But yeah, the "within the creator's power" rule is kind of iffy considering all the things the Dragonballs get used for later on. I guess it'd probably make more sense to say that the power of the Dragonballs is proportional to the creator's power, and that (just like the Dragon Clan Nameks who made them) they're a lot better at creation/healing than they are at destruction (hence being able to restore a life or even an entire planet, but at the same time not being able to kill a couple of guys with a power level in the multi-thousands.) To put it in numbers, you could say their destructive potential caps out somewhere in the 300-600 power level range (closer down to where Kami himself probably is), while their potential for granting wishes of creation/restoration goes way, way, waaaay beyond that level.

I thought that the Dragon Balls were incapable of killing Nappa and Vegeta because they were so much stronger than Kami was. Was it ever said that the Dragon Balls could not kill anyone?

[thatdbzguy]

They'd never be able to wish Goku back if they did.

But yeah, DBZ is Plot-Hole Central. Considering how it's one of the worst written mangas ever, finding plot holes shouldn't be much of a shocking thing.

[Gaffer Tape]

They'd never be able to wish Goku back if they did.

Sure they would. As Oolong says, they could just wish him back next time.

[Kaboom]

But yeah, DBZ is Plot-Hole Central. Considering how it's one of the worst written mangas ever, finding plot holes shouldn't be much of a shocking thing.

This is gettin' old, man. Discussing it in your own thread is one thing, but it seems you're just spamming this "point" at every minuscule opportunity. It's borderline trolling by its purest definition.

[thatdbzguy]

They'd never be able to wish Goku back if they did.

Sure they would. As Oolong says, they could just wish him back next time.

No they couldn't. "Next time" they'd be able to use the Dragon Balls, it'd be well over a year.

Shenlong can't revive people who've been dead for over a year.

[Gaffer Tape]

Untrue. Shenlong is only limited to a year in reviving exceptionally large groups of dead people.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Shenlong can't revive people who've been dead for over a year.

I think this happens only when they wish back a large amount of people. But then, they didn't know about that.

And like I said before, they didn't know that they were traveling for the whole year. They could have been busy for a year, and then come instantly with a spaceship on Earth, because aliens.

[thatdbzguy]

Huh. If that's the case, then there really is no good reason as to why they didn't wish for that.

DBZ relies too much on the obnoxious stupidity of it's characters.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Huh. If that's the case, then there really is no good reason as to why they didn't wish for that.

DBZ relies too much on the obnoxious stupidity of it's characters.

And like I said before, they didn't know that they were traveling for the whole year. They could have been busy for a year, and then come instantly with a spaceship on Earth, because aliens.