Goku's Feats

[Polyphase Avatron]

Zeno is a weak piece of shit, he has universal haxxx but by all rights he can logically get blitzed by Dyspo since he's too fast for him.

Even if Dyspo could punch Zeno a billion times before he could even blink, it would be pointless since none of his attacks could actually hurt him. As soon as Zeno realized that he was being attacked, Dyspo would get erased.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

I literally said that's how I enjoy it. You guys seem to cherrypick a lot of the stuff Í´m saying. Don´t bash how others enjoy a show.

[Rakurai]

That may work in series, but if you try to scale Goku to people outside of dragon ball, that won't work. Like for example, Goku vs Superman. Since no one in Dragon ball has fought anyone from the DC universe, your method fails. And it's only inconsistent if you don´t know what you are doing. Any competent powerscaler can do it in a way so that its accurate to the series. Based on the A > B > C, so A> C method, Goku being universal has no proof. He´s not been directly shown to be stronger than beerus, he's definitely not stronger than Zeno. Without using my method, Goku can´t legitimately be scaled to universal.

I really don't care about planet or universal classifications or comparing DB to any other series. I only really care about how strong characters are relative to each other within the DB franchise, whenever possible. Characters are not meant to ever be compared outside of their continuities, or classified as "universal," that's all fandom talk in the end.

You're making the same mistake that Goku made when Whis told him off about gauging Zeno's power.

What I get from this is ¨I don´t care how strong he is, I just want cool fights.¨ If that's how you want to watch the series, by all means, go for it. I can´t stop you from enjoying something how you want to enjoy it. I, on the other hand, love logic puzzles and doing complicated math to solve problems. Dragon ball is a gold mine of physics theories just waiting to be solved, so I find enjoyment in that. Although I can get behind a good fight or two.

Sorry but how the fuck did you get "I only want cool fights" from saying I care about how strong characters are relative to each other.

You do you, but DB objectively speaking is not a logic puzzle nor does it provide us a complex math problem to solve. It's not a physical theory and as a research scientist, I find it highly insulting to even consider it as one. You are deluding yourself to think of it like that, and this is me speaking as a research scientist. It's a franchise that is created by multiple authors/directors, is being constantly retconned, and ultimately tries to tell an action story. It's not mindless fun all the time, it's entertaining to watch its characters grow and get stronger and fight in new settings and narratives but in no way is it supposed to ever be scaled to any other series, or use classifications such as planet tier, galaxy tier, universal tier, etc.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

I really don't care about planet or universal classifications or comparing DB to any other series. I only really care about how strong characters are relative to each other within the DB franchise, whenever possible. Characters are not meant to ever be compared outside of their continuities, or classified as "universal," that's all fandom talk in the end.

You're making the same mistake that Goku made when Whis told him off about gauging Zeno's power.

What I get from this is ¨I don´t care how strong he is, I just want cool fights.¨ If that's how you want to watch the series, by all means, go for it. I can´t stop you from enjoying something how you want to enjoy it. I, on the other hand, love logic puzzles and doing complicated math to solve problems. Dragon ball is a gold mine of physics theories just waiting to be solved, so I find enjoyment in that. Although I can get behind a good fight or two.

Sorry but how the fuck did you get "I only want cool fights" from saying I care about how strong characters are relative to each other.

You do you, but DB objectively speaking is not a logic puzzle nor does it provide us with a complex math problem to solve. It's not a physical theory and as a research scientist, I find it highly insulting to even consider it as one. You are deluding yourself to think of it like that, and this is me speaking as a research scientist. It's a franchise that is created by multiple authors/directors, is being constantly retconned, and ultimately tries to tell an action story. It's not mindless fun all the time, it's entertaining to watch its characters grow and get stronger and fight in new settings and narratives but in no way is it supposed to ever be scaled to any other series, or use classifications such as planet tier, galaxy tier, universal tier, etc.

So you find it insulting that I enjoy a show different than you? I think that's very idiotic of you and shows your age a lot. I see everything as a mathematical problem. It just how my brain is wired to think. So If anything, I find it extremely insulting that you're telling me how I´m allowed to enjoy a TV show.

[Nokra]

I think the only real "tier" in fiction is "plot tier"

[Sanity's_Theif]

Since I've started taking physics classes for engineering, all these debates seem so silly.

Like now I'll see, "superman can move faster than light because of x" and just think, no, that's not an explanation, it makes no sense, you're just using big words without knowing what they mean lol.

If you really look at claims for any comic book/manga character of how they can move faster than light, or how they're so strong they can lift a planet (please), you can debunk EVERYTHING.

I can sit here and come up with factual explanations for how superman isn't faster than light, and they're legitimate. In fact you can make a more realistic case that they're all mentally ill people who just believe they can do these things but they're all in a psych ward together.

So I don't get how people just pick which stuff to apply and where. I've seen how D.C. tries to use science to explain things and I just can't accept those, they're complete bs from top to bottom.

It's actually just easier for me to accept when an author just doesn't try to explain it and it's either just plainly stated, or someone just points something simple out and says hey this must mean this, and I'm just like, well I guess so lol.

Like with the whole Piccolo blowing up the moon thing, it's easier for me to just think, "well he's shooting a light beam and people say x amount of time passed so it means it was travelling at light speed." I can just tag along with that easier, but when people get into the "well because that was faster than light here's this thing that happens which because of the first thing means this" I just think people are going too much into it at that point. It's just a cartoon world. Just accept the first part and the rest is just for fun.

But still, all of that gives me far less of a headache than the "scientific explanations" some comic books try to give, in which all of my instincts just say, no, that's not even close to an explanation, let alone proof, you don't know science so don't try to use it.

[Rakurai]

So you find it insulting that I enjoy a show different than you? I think that's very idiotic of you and shows your age a lot. I see everything as a mathematical problem. It just how my brain is wired to think. So If anything, I find it extremely insulting that you're telling me how I´m allowed to enjoy a TV show.

I find it insulting that you would consider Dragon Ball as a gold mine of physical theories and a complex mathematical problem, given my daytime job consists of using actual physics and mathematics I learned in undergrad AND grad school to understand real world phenomenon and solve engineering problems. The reason I find it insulting is exactly because that is my career. Say to someone who is a doctor, that One Piece is a gold mine of human anatomy discoveries waiting to be uncovered. Implying that what you learned in 4-5 years of med school was just the tip of the iceberg cause there's soooo much more to learn by reading One Piece. Like, just no.

It's not an age question. If I told my advisor I consider Looney Tunes to be a gold mine of physical theories waiting to be solved or a complex math problem, he would call me stupid and ask what is wrong with me. It's about separating fiction from real life.

[Polyphase Avatron]

So you find it insulting that I enjoy a show different than you? I think that's very idiotic of you and shows your age a lot. I see everything as a mathematical problem. It just how my brain is wired to think. So If anything, I find it extremely insulting that you're telling me how I´m allowed to enjoy a TV show.

I find it insulting that you would consider Dragon Ball as a gold mine of physical theories and a complex mathematical problem, given my daytime job consists of using actual physics and mathematics I learned in undergrad AND grad school to understand real world phenomenon and solve engineering problems. The reason I find it insulting is exactly because that is my career. Say to someone who is a doctor, that One Piece is a gold mine of human anatomy discoveries waiting to be uncovered. Implying that what you learned in 4-5 years of med school was just the tip of the iceberg cause there's soooo much more to learn by reading One Piece. Like, just no.

It's not an age question. If I told my advisor I consider Looney Tunes to be a gold mine of physical theories waiting to be solved or a complex math problem, he would call me stupid and ask what is wrong with me. It's about separating fiction from real life.

It's not about learning stuff from it, some people just like to try to use math and science and see if they can apply it to fictional settings where it doesn't really make complete sense. I guess because the challenge is trying to get it to make sense as much as possible. Like jamming a square peg into a round hole, except you can actually make a bit of progress sometimes. Some people find that kind of thing entertaining.

[theherodjl]

I might be remembering this wrong, but didn't Piccolo in the anime subs say that "it feels like the universe is shaking!" when Perfect Cell began to power up to his full strength? With hyperbole being quite so obvious just for the tier of Perfect Cell, I'd say that the hyperbole of "Goku shaking the entire world of void!" is just another example of the series emphasizing that the latest character is just really strong, and not literally meaning that Goku is shaking an 'infinite' realm of nothingness(lawl).

[Rakurai]

So you find it insulting that I enjoy a show different than you? I think that's very idiotic of you and shows your age a lot. I see everything as a mathematical problem. It just how my brain is wired to think. So If anything, I find it extremely insulting that you're telling me how I´m allowed to enjoy a TV show.

I find it insulting that you would consider Dragon Ball as a gold mine of physical theories and a complex mathematical problem, given my daytime job consists of using actual physics and mathematics I learned in undergrad AND grad school to understand real world phenomenon and solve engineering problems. The reason I find it insulting is exactly because that is my career. Say to someone who is a doctor, that One Piece is a gold mine of human anatomy discoveries waiting to be uncovered. Implying that what you learned in 4-5 years of med school was just the tip of the iceberg cause there's soooo much more to learn by reading One Piece. Like, just no.

It's not an age question. If I told my advisor I consider Looney Tunes to be a gold mine of physical theories waiting to be solved or a complex math problem, he would call me stupid and ask what is wrong with me. It's about separating fiction from real life.

It's not about learning stuff from it, some people just like to try to use math and science and see if they can apply it to fictional settings where it doesn't really make complete sense. I guess because the challenge is trying to get it to make sense as much as possible. Like jamming a square peg into a round hole, except you can actually make a bit of progress sometimes. Some people find that kind of thing entertaining.

If the writers of this franchise put even a moment's worth of serious thought into the physics of things, then you might have a point. But when the show consistently defies basic physics, all bets are off.

Anyways, to my original point, which is that shaking an infinite void makes zero sense and is unquantifiable. Quantifying infinity is absurd in math and physics for a good reason, and the reason why there are normalization rules to get rid of them. You cannot scale how strong Goku is to other ToP players in his realm off of that either, anymore than you can scale how strong Beerus is with comparison to kid Buu from destroying planets, because both could do that real easy.

[Polyphase Avatron]

If the writers of this franchise put even a moment's worth of serious thought into the physics of things, then you might have a point. But when the show consistently defies basic physics, all bets are off.

But that's just it. The challenge is to try to make a best fit even if the writers never intended it. It's really not all that different from writing fanfiction or doing fanart - in each case you're taking the original work and putting your own spin on it, looking at it through a different lens. It can be fun. People who take the calculations and feats way too seriously are annoying, but the same is true of anyone who takes things too seriously in a fandom, like pairings, dub comparisons, continuity, etc.

Anyways, to my original point, which is that shaking an infinite void makes zero sense and is unquantifiable. Quantifying infinity is absurd in math and physics for a good reason, and the reason why there are normalization rules to get rid of them. You cannot scale how strong Goku is to other ToP players in his realm off of that either, anymore than you can scale how strong Beerus is with comparison to kid Buu from destroying planets, because both could do that real easy.

Well there are ways to quantify infinities in mathematics, but as I said before, they don't really apply to most fictional settings like this.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

So you find it insulting that I enjoy a show different than you? I think that's very idiotic of you and shows your age a lot. I see everything like a mathematical problem. It just how my brain is wired to think. So If anything, I find it extremely insulting that you're telling me how I´m allowed to enjoy a TV show.

I find it insulting that you would consider Dragon Ball as a gold mine of physical theories and a complex mathematical problem, given my daytime job consists of using actual physics and mathematics I learned in undergrad AND grad school to understand the real-world phenomenon and solve engineering problems. The reason I find it insulting is exactly that that is my career. Say to someone who is a doctor, that One Piece is a gold mine of human anatomy discoveries waiting to be uncovered. Implying that what you learned in 4-5 years of med school was just the tip of the iceberg cause there's too much more to learn by reading One Piece. Like, just no.

It's not an age question. If I told my advisor I consider Looney Tunes to be a goldmine of physical theories waiting to be solved or a complex math problem, he would call me stupid and ask what is wrong with me. It's about separating fiction from real life.

You can take anything I say and twist it into a bad thing, can´t you? You ignored most of what I said and cherrypicked what you wanted to hear, and try to make an argument over this. You are a genuine idiot for comparing me scaling things like destroying a planet in Dragon Ball, to pretending like the clearly cartoonish things in Looney Tunes are facts. Like, you are a retard if you think those two things are the same. Because they are not. And its hilarious considering how much bragging you were doing about learning physics and mathematics, that you can lack so much common sense. And if this is your career, god help your employer. I literally said in my post that thats how my brain sees The World. So your ¨Separating Fiction from real life¨ claim is not only a logical fallacy because that´s not what I´m talking about in the first place, but it also shows just how much of a Dumbass you are. To put it in terms your incredibly slow brain will understand, If I can solve something with math and physics, I will try. No ifs, ands, or buts. Thats how my brain works. If you have a problem with that, you can talk to god about it when you pass. Although, I doubt you´ll be going that way.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You are a genuine idiot for comparing me scaling things like destroying a planet in Dragon Ball, to pretending like the clearly cartoonish things in Looney Tunes are facts.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, there have been planets destroyed in Looney Tunes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M9Q1QDhqAU

So some kind of comparison could be made...

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

You are a genuine idiot for comparing me scaling things like destroying a planet in Dragon Ball, to pretending like the clearly cartoonish things in Looney Tunes are facts.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, there have been planets destroyed in Looney Tunes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M9Q1QDhqAU

So some kind of comparison could be made...

Read the part of my post about it being a CLEARLY CARTOONISH THING in Looney Tunes. Notice the use of goddam dynamite to destroy the planet. Are you saying that people being able to destroy planets in Dragon Ball is just as ludicrous as Daffy Duck being able to do it with a few sticks of dynamite?

[Polyphase Avatron]

You are a genuine idiot for comparing me scaling things like destroying a planet in Dragon Ball, to pretending like the clearly cartoonish things in Looney Tunes are facts.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, there have been planets destroyed in Looney Tunes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M9Q1QDhqAU

So some kind of comparison could be made...

Read the part of my post about it being a CLEARLY CARTOONISH THING in Looney Tunes. Notice the use of goddam dynamite to destroy the planet. Are you saying that people being able to destroy planets in Dragon Ball is just as ludicrous as Daffy Duck being able to do it with a few sticks of dynamite?

Well according to real life physics, yes. But my point is that, even in silly situations like that, there are some parallels. It would probably be easier to run the math for a planetary explosion from DB than to do it for that one, but it could still be attempted.

Besides, it's futuristic space dynamite from the 24 1/2 century

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Besides, it's futuristic space dynamite from the 24 1/2 century

I doubt even in 333 years we could make explosions equivalent to 16,000 Tzar Bombas- The most powerful Nuclear Weapon to have ever been made by mankind- and make them into the size of Marvin the Martian.

If the writers of this franchise put even a moment's worth of serious thought into the physics of things, then you might have a point. But when the show consistently defies basic physics, all bets are off.

So what you are saying is that stuff that defies the laws of physics is disregarded when it comes to scaling? In that case, Every feat of strength from Goku tanking bullets as a kid to fighting a god are gone. I know thats not what you mean, but you are an idiot so someone could make that claim based on how its worded. I never stated for this to be fact. I like doing physics and will find any excuse to do so. Deal with it. As I said before, you guys can´t just go around telling people they can't enjoy a show any way they like. I use my love of physics as a general excuse for why I still watch this show. Aside from cool fights, Modern Dragon ball has nothing going for it. The characters pretty much ended at the end of Z and what they are now are hollow copies of themselves. They are bland and the worst traits of them all are cranked to the max ( Except Vegeta, I like family man Vegeta), Especially Goku. So my putting Physics into a show with none in it to make this Dumpster fire of a show entertaining again is my choice to make, not yours.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Besides, it's futuristic space dynamite from the 24 1/2 century

I doubt even in 333 years we could make explosions equivalent to 16,000 Tzar Bombas- The most powerful Nuclear Weapon to have ever been made by mankind- and make them into the size of Marvin the Martian.

There aren't going to be talking ducks and pigs either. Point is, you have to suspend disbelief, sometimes more than other times. Ki doesn't exist IRL after all, so you can't exactly call DB powers realistic or plausible. But you can try to measure what they have shown to be able to do.

[Rakurai]

Only that this is not meant to be Like I said, you do you.

You can take anything I say and twist it into a bad thing, can´t you? You ignored most of what I said and cherrypicked what you wanted to hear, and try to make an argument over this. You are a genuine idiot for comparing me scaling things like destroying a planet in Dragon Ball, to pretending like the clearly cartoonish things in Looney Tunes are facts. Like, you are a retard if you think those two things are the same. Because they are not. And its hilarious considering how much bragging you were doing about learning physics and mathematics, that you can lack so much common sense. And if this is your career, god help your employer. I literally said in my post that thats how my brain sees The World. So your ¨Separating Fiction from real life¨ claim is not only a logical fallacy because that´s not what I´m talking about in the first place, but it also shows just how much of a Dumbass you are. To put it in terms your incredibly slow brain will understand, If I can solve something with math and physics, I will try. No ifs, ands, or buts. Thats how my brain works. If you have a problem with that, you can talk to god about it when you pass. Although, I doubt you´ll be going that way.

Looney Tunes is fiction. Dragon Ball is fiction. Neither are rooted in real world physics nor mathematics. It is that simple. Also I don't believe in god.

I never told you to stop what you are doing. I simply called out the facts and the best that you can resort is to calling me names like retard or dumbass and assume things you don't even know about me.

You said three things:

1. "That may work in series, but if you try to scale Goku to people outside of dragon ball, that won't work."

2. "You do know that in fictional scaling there are tiers to infinity, right?"

3. "Dragon ball is a gold mine of physics theories just waiting to be solved"

The facts are that:

1. DB was not written to be compared to other series/franchises.

2. There is no such thing as tiers in DB.

3. Real world physics/mathematics do not apply to DB.

Like I said, you do you. You can apply the equations/logic of statics/dynamics, EM, fluid mechanics/dynamics, thermodynamics, relativity, QM, whatever you want to DB. But know that most if not all of it is an absurd and a fruitless exercise that doesn't garner any meaningful results even within the context of DB because writers aren't thinking about the fundamental concepts. Rule of cool =/= physics.

[Rakurai]

If the writers of this franchise put even a moment's worth of serious thought into the physics of things, then you might have a point. But when the show consistently defies basic physics, all bets are off.

But that's just it. The challenge is to try to make a best fit even if the writers never intended it. It's really not all that different from writing fanfiction or doing fanart - in each case you're taking the original work and putting your own spin on it, looking at it through a different lens. It can be fun. People who take the calculations and feats way too seriously are annoying, but the same is true of anyone who takes things too seriously in a fandom, like pairings, dub comparisons, continuity, etc.

Anyways, to my original point, which is that shaking an infinite void makes zero sense and is unquantifiable. Quantifying infinity is absurd in math and physics for a good reason, and the reason why there are normalization rules to get rid of them. You cannot scale how strong Goku is to other ToP players in his realm off of that either, anymore than you can scale how strong Beerus is with comparison to kid Buu from destroying planets, because both could do that real easy.

Well there are ways to quantify infinities in mathematics, but as I said before, they don't really apply to most fictional settings like this.

I simply find it baffling that people would watch DB for physics, which is what the other poster said his reason was. If someone gets offended for another person telling them that DB =/= physics problem (which I personally find insult, but that's just me), then that person is not cut out for a career in science. Rule of cool =/= physics.

I just want to understand how strong characters are relative to each other. Whatever else they do to the environment is flash and nice, but should not be the main criterion for determining conclusions like "Oh yeah UI Goku stomps Beerus, SSG Goku soloes GT" that kind of shit argument.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

As I said, you do you. You can apply the equations/logic of statics/dynamics, EM, fluid mechanics/dynamics, thermodynamics, relativity, QM, whatever you want to DB. But know that most if not all of it are an absurd and a fruitless exercise that doesn't garner any meaningful results even within the context of DB because writers aren't thinking about the fundamental concepts. Rule of cool =/= physics.

This is my problem. You are trying to pretend like I don't know this. You're trying to pretend like I´m some little kid trying to prove why Bugs Bunny is real. That pisses me off. I know this shit is fake, I never said it wasn't. You keep bending what I say to be able to make an argument over it . So let me make this absolutely clear so we don't have to do this song and dance again. I DO THIS FOR FUN.I find physics fun and like doing it. And like I said, If I want to figure how these obviously fictional characters, whose authors most likely know as much about science and physics as a toddler, blow up planets and shake infinite voids just to get a kick about of it, then i should be able to without dealing with guys like you who take offence from people having fun doing what you do for a living.

Besides, it's futuristic space dynamite from the 24 1/2 century

I doubt even in 333 years we could make explosions equivalent to 16,000 Tzar Bombas- The most powerful Nuclear Weapon to have ever been made by mankind- and make them into the size of Marvin the Martian.

There aren't going to be talking ducks and pigs either. Point is, you have to suspend disbelief, sometimes more than other times. Ki doesn't exist IRL after all, so you can't exactly call DB powers realistic or plausible. But you can try to measure what they have shown to be able to do.

I was being sarcastic. Sorry if that wasn't clear