Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:02 pm

SSJ2 makes the most sense to me.

There's no logical reason for him to be just a SSJ1. That SSJ1 aura is just a mistake.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Reading Rainbow » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:16 am

This is ridiculous, is there no possible way for us to contact toriyama's people and attempt to have this question answered? that'd be cool if we came up with something like "the top 5 dbz questions", that kanzenshuu community would like answered the most and he actually responded.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Diotor » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:03 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:Ssj
If gohan was ssj2
Then ssj majin vegeta (who's implied to be above dabura) would be > ssj2 gohan
Yeah, that's pretty much what is implied. At that point:

Goku > Vegeta > Gohan = Dabra

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Regarder » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:08 am

Looking the same as when he fought Dabura, doesn't Gohan say that he forgot Goku and Vegeta were "fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan"?

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:45 am

Gohan realizes that Goku and Vegeta are likely fighting beyond Super Saiyan because of the amount of damage generated in such a short battle.
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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by RancorSnp » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:50 am

SSJ2.
If he was SSJ 1 Vegeta wouldn't put so much stress on "one" when he said he "could beat Dabura on the stage one"

Visualiation :
- Hey look, SSJ gohan is having hard time with Dabura
- Pathetic! I could beat him on the stage one!

= makes no sense

~~~~
- Hey look, SSJ2 gohan is having hard time with Dabura
- Pathetic! I could beat him on the stage one!

= makes sense

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:19 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:So why was his Super Saiyan 2 aura intense when he showed it to Kibito?
I guess it's intense sometimes, but not always. It doesn't make much sense for him to only be a SS against Dabra, Majin Boo's egg, and Majin Boo. Plus, his SS hairstyle was different when he was training with Goten, while his transformed hairstyle from the 25th TB up to the Z-Sword training is always exactly the same.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Godo » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:26 pm

Zombie wrote:SSJ2 makes the most sense to me.

There's no logical reason for him to be just a SSJ1. That SSJ1 aura is just a mistake.
It would be a mistake if it was only present in, say, one or two panels. But it's present for the whole Dabra vs. Gohan fight, and we have as well Gohan with the same aura fighting Buu, whilst Goku and Vegeta were fighting in pages inbetween that as confirmed (in the manga itself) SSJ2s, aura and sparks present.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by rereboy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:03 pm

I believe that Gohan was technically a SSJ2 but, since he was lacking on anger, he wasn't fully tapping into his SSJ2 state, making him lack sparks in his aura. Previously, at the tournament, since he was angry because of what had happened to Videl, he had no trouble fully tapping into that state.

As for Kaioshin's impressions of his power, Kaioshin only truly understood the extent of Gohan's power when he attacked Buu. Even though Gohan had transformed into SSJ2 at the tournament, fully tapping into that state, the truth is that Gohan didn't expend any of his power, he didn't attack anyone, he just stood there, which made Kaioshin not fully grasp his power until later.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Kaboom » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:11 pm

You know, based on how one interprets Super Saiyan 2 as just being a powered up version of Super Saiyan, you could end up with no real difference between "only at Super Saiyan 1" and "at Super Saiyan 2 but not at full power."

But any way you slice it, I think it's clear that whatever you want to call that juiced-up, 100x base power state... Gohan wasn't in it.
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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by rereboy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Kaboom wrote:You know, based on how one interprets Super Saiyan 2 as just being a powered up version of Super Saiyan, you could end up with no real difference between "only at Super Saiyan 1" and "at Super Saiyan 2 but not at full power."

But any way you slice it, I think it's clear that whatever you want to call that juiced-up, 100x base power state... Gohan wasn't in it.
Yeah, but there's a very significant gap of power between SSJ1 and SSJ2. In my view, Gohan was close to his full SSJ2 power while fighting Dabra, but he just wasn't fully reaching it because he lacked the edge his anger gives him.

I think that fits what happens and what the characters say the best. Vegeta comments that he shouldn't have been having this much trouble with Dabra and that he was stronger as a kid, and Goku agrees that he has indeed been slacking. These comments strike me more appropriate for a Gohan that is struggling to fully reach his SSJ2 state and get angry, but is using significantly more than his SSJ1 state, than a Gohan that is just using his regular SSJ1 state and power.

Vegeta and Goku, on the other hand, have no such problem, and thus their sparks. In fact, Toriyama has used sparks consistently throughout Dragon Ball to symbolize intensity. It makes perfect sense for him to draw Gohan without them to symbolize that he is lacking intensity, even though he is not just a regular SSJ1.

Also the fact that Goku compares Dabra to Cell and then mentions that Dabra is even better than he thought leads me to believe that Gohan needed more than his SSJ1 to face him, even though this is debatable.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Regarder » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:24 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Gohan realizes that Goku and Vegeta are likely fighting beyond Super Saiyan because of the amount of damage generated in such a short battle.
But would he forget about SS2 if he himself was at that level? They'd be fighting at a degree above Gohan's power, yet they are shown constantly crackling with lightning, and even when he goes to full power Gohan never has any lightning. After SS2 was introduced, sparks constantly appear for every depiction where it is outright stated to be SS2, but characters who are stronger (like Buu) don't have constant sparks, so it can't just be the occasional way he used sparks to show intensity from before. Now, sparks constantly appear for every stated SS2, and do not constantly appear for stronger characters who aren't using SS2 or 3 (like Buu for example), so how could it just be strength? Gohan being SS2 would be the unstated exception to this if it were true, but why just believe that?

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:33 am

Regarder wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Gohan realizes that Goku and Vegeta are likely fighting beyond Super Saiyan because of the amount of damage generated in such a short battle.
But would he forget about SS2 if he himself was at that level? They'd be fighting at a degree above Gohan's power, yet they are shown constantly crackling with lightning, and even when he goes to full power Gohan never has any lightning.
That's the thing though. He didn't forget about them fighting at Super Saiya-jin 2. It's not that he knew they were fighting as Super Saiya-jin 2, then forgot, then realized later they were. Goku and Vegeta didn't transform into Super Saiya-jin 2 until after Gohan and Kaioushin descended down into Babi-di's ship, and, as a result, Gohan was oblivious to the level of power they were using to fight one another. It's only when Buu's energy was totally filled that Gohan realized that his dad had to have been fighting at Super Saiya-jin 2 in order for so much energy to have been collected so quick.
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”
He knew that Goku could transform (due to Goku's fight with Yakon), but he didn't have any way of knowing that Goku had transformed for the sake of fighting Vegeta until Buu's energy gathered so quickly.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:45 pm

Galan007 wrote:That said, Buu-era SSJ Gohan certainly wouldn't have been able to do what even his much more powerful self couldn't, and match a Cell-level being.
SSJ Gohan in the Cell Games couldn't match Cell because he wasn't motivated though. There isn't a very good way to prove that SSJ Gohan couldn't beat Cell in his SSJ form due to a power difference because, as Gohan said, he didn't want to fight. Goku showed an excellent fight against Suppressed Cell and then told us that Gohan was stronger than him. So why is it that Gohan couldn't couldn't preform as well as Cell can at 100%? Gohan even confirmed that it looked like Goku and Cell weren't even trying. So Gohan is vastly stronger than his father. Had Gohan actually been trying to kill Cell from the start I feel the fight would have looked a lot different.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Galan007 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:28 pm

Hitiro wrote:
Galan007 wrote:That said, Buu-era SSJ Gohan certainly wouldn't have been able to do what even his much more powerful self couldn't, and match a Cell-level being.
SSJ Gohan in the Cell Games couldn't match Cell because he wasn't motivated though. There isn't a very good way to prove that SSJ Gohan couldn't beat Cell in his SSJ form due to a power difference because, as Gohan said, he didn't want to fight. Goku showed an excellent fight against Suppressed Cell and then told us that Gohan was stronger than him. So why is it that Gohan couldn't couldn't preform as well as Cell can at 100%? Gohan even confirmed that it looked like Goku and Cell weren't even trying. So Gohan is vastly stronger than his father. Had Gohan actually been trying to kill Cell from the start I feel the fight would have looked a lot different.
Cool. Cell-era SSJ Gohan potentially being able to stalemate a full-power Cell, certainly doesn't imply that his much weaker Buu-era self could have done the same--which is my point.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:52 pm

Galan007 wrote: Cool. Cell-era SSJ Gohan potentially being able to stalemate a full-power Cell, certainly doesn't imply that his much weaker Buu-era self could have done the same--which is my point.
About as strong as Cell doesn't mean that he equals Cell though. Just like Gohan getting weaker doesn't mean he can't be about as strong as Cell was. For instance it could be something like this.

SSJ Gohan(Boo arc): 10
Dabra: 10
Cell: 12
SSJ Gohan(Cell Games): 12

^ I can still say Dabra is about as strong as Cell. They aren't going to be completely even. Even assuming Gohan was losing he could be a 9 or 8 in my example. And still put up a fight against Dabra with Dabra having the slight advantage.

Despite this my main point was that you can't assume that Gohan couldn't match Cell during the Cell Games when Gohan did not want to fight so it impaired his combat. We can't know if Gohan could have matched Cell if he actually wanted to fight and kill Cell. I mean there is nothing wrong with you having that opinion. But the way you spoke about it, it seems like you were stating that Gohan couldn't match Cell as a fact.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Galan007 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:04 pm

Hitiro wrote:Despite this my main point was that you can't assume that Gohan couldn't match Cell during the Cell Games when Gohan did not want to fight so it impaired his combat. We can't know if Gohan could have matched Cell if he actually wanted to fight and kill Cell. I mean there is nothing wrong with you having that opinion. But the way you spoke about it, it seems like you were stating that Gohan couldn't match Cell as a fact.
I believe SSJ Gohan could have potentially matched the suppressed Cell whom Goku lost to, but would have been beaten to a pulp by full-power Cell.

Simply put: full-power Cell>SSJ Gohan=suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku. I think that is a fair, and moreover, logical assertion based on the info we were given... But yes, it is just my opinion. :)

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:14 pm

Galan007 wrote:I believe SSJ Gohan could have potentially matched the suppressed Cell whom Goku lost to, but would have been beaten to a pulp by full-power Cell.

Simply put: full-power Cell>SSJ Gohan=suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku. I think that is a fair, and moreover, logical assertion, based on the info we were given. But yes, it is just my opinion. :)
Gohan could beat the suppressed Cell. He confirms this when he said Goku and Cell weren't fighting all out.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”
What we get from this is:

SSJ Gohan > Suppressed Cell = SSJ Goku.

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Galan007 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:57 pm

Hitiro wrote:
Galan007 wrote:I believe SSJ Gohan could have potentially matched the suppressed Cell whom Goku lost to, but would have been beaten to a pulp by full-power Cell.

Simply put: full-power Cell>SSJ Gohan=suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku. I think that is a fair, and moreover, logical assertion, based on the info we were given. But yes, it is just my opinion. :)
Gohan could beat the suppressed Cell. He confirms this when he said Goku and Cell weren't fighting all out.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”
What we get from this is:

SSJ Gohan > Suppressed Cell = SSJ Goku.
Except suppressed Cell was not equal to SSJ Goku--he was more powerful. Hence Cell's statements toward the end of he and Goku's battle:
DBZ:207
Context: Just before Goku surrenders to Cell
Cell: "You've lost a lot of strength... Have one of your senzu, Son Goku... It'll make a more entertaining battle [...] What's wrong? Does your pride prevent you from taking the senzu? I've spent so much of my energy, if you come back up to full power your chances will increase... Slightly. Come on. I want to have more fun!"
Despite being in a significantly weakened state, Cell was still confident that he'd be able to defeat a full power SSJ Goku--to the point that he was actually trolling Goku to take a senzu. If that doesn't suggest that suppressed Cell>SSJ Goku, I don't know what does. /shrug

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Re: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabra

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:03 pm

Cell was above Goku:
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”
Gohan was much stronger than Goku, but I don't think the same difference apply's to Gohan and Cell.

I think the overall plan was to have Gohan crush Cell with his hidden powers. Goku seems to focus too much on his hidden powers for it to have not been something he was considering from the get go:
Goku: “That’s it…That’s fine, Cell! Get Gohan angry…! If you do, you’ll experience true fear for the first time…”
Super Saiyan Gohan was going to be the one to fight Cell, while Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was going to be the one to finish Cell.
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