Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

[singsing]

I remembered something Toriyama said recently which may render the entire "debate" even more moot than it already is. Not only are power level gap rules baloney in general, but it seems they're a little extra baloney when it comes to Saiyans:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

"I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."

This seems to apply perfectly to Nappa vs Goku to me.

When Piccolo won against someone 4x him?

Against Raditz, of course. His PL of 408 won against a PL of 1,500 thanks to backup (Goku and Gohan) and being amplified by a potent technique (the Makankosappo). Which shouldn't have been possible if some proportional comparison of starting powers was all that mattered in a fight.

In the same way, Nappa (4,000) had a chance at beating Goku (8,000) by means of his "toughness" letting the fight be prolonged enough that his strength would gradually catch up to Goku's. Heck, maybe it was already starting to, since his mouth-blast ultimate attack presumably could have hurt Goku.

This shiz is so freakin' easy as soon as you let go of all the "but A is only X% of B so he can't do Y" nonsense.

It's been years and every time this thread comes up it's always only you fighting the good fight for some reason... I can't understand why people can't seem to accept something official that was stated over and over and over again.

[Ash57]

I remembered something Toriyama said recently which may render the entire "debate" even more moot than it already is. Not only are power level gap rules baloney in general, but it seems they're a little extra baloney when it comes to Saiyans:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

"I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."

This seems to apply perfectly to Nappa vs Goku to me.

When Piccolo won against someone 4x him?

Against Raditz, of course. His PL of 408 won against a PL of 1,500 thanks to backup (Goku and Gohan) and being amplified by a potent technique (the Makankosappo). Which shouldn't have been possible if some proportional comparison of starting powers was all that mattered in a fight.

In the same way, Nappa (4,000) had a chance at beating Goku (8,000) by means of his "toughness" letting the fight be prolonged enough that his strength would gradually catch up to Goku's. Heck, maybe it was already starting to, since his mouth-blast ultimate attack presumably could have hurt Goku.

This shiz is so freakin' easy as soon as you let go of all the "but A is only X% of B so he can't do Y" nonsense.

Sigh.

Piccolo never tried to take Raditz head on, you're trying to use things that don't fit in your argument. Piccolo just sitted there, charging his energy. Also, Piccolo's arm was ripped off with only one strike. This only shows how distant and hopeless Piccolo was vs. Raditz.

You mean, Nappa's toughness? The same toughness that Goku one-shotted in Recoome?
There is no way that Nappa would take a hit from Goku with a pl of 4k, it's simple to understand.

[Kaboom]

There is no way that Nappa would take a hit from Goku with a pl of 4k...

Of course, there's no way someone could just get back up and keep fighting after taking hits from someone twice as strong as them. Not to even mention hits from someone twenty times stronger than them.

[Analytic]

I can't understand why people can't seem to accept something official that was stated over and over and over again.

Perhaps because they don't have to? Nappa's battle power of 4,000 is only within guidebooks and Q&As. It's not in the manga and it's never directly stated by Toriyama; thus, people are free to disregard the figure if they wish.

[Kaboom]

I can't understand why people can't seem to accept something official that was stated over and over and over again.

Perhaps because they don't have to? Nappa's battle power of 4,000 is only within guidebooks and Q&As. It's not in the manga and it's never directly stated by Toriyama; thus, people are free to disregard the figure if they wish.

This is 100% true. But on the flipside, they also have no authority or grounds to claim that it's "wrong" or "impossible" in any factual way.

[LightBing]

I'm not claiming anybody is right or wrong regarding this, nobody will ever be. Unless Mr.Toriyama clears it up.

However, the arguments to put his power level closer to Goku's 8000 are much stronger.

We see Freeza's forces(which includes Saiyans) trusting on their scouters as if it were the gospel. Nappa is no exception and he knows Goku's has 5000 (first) and then power's up to 8000 plus. He proceeds to receive a beat-down and still trusts he can win. Vegeta supports him with the following quote.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P14.2
Context: after Goku has been outclassing Nappa
Vegeta: “Nappa!!!! Get a hold of yourself, fool!!!! He’s not an opponent you can’t take if you keep your head!!! Calm down!!!!”

The same Vegeta also has another quote(sooner) which places his reasoning in numbers. Since we know Raditz is in the 1200-1500 range.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P10.1
Context: Vegeta talking about Raditz losing to Goku and co.
Vegeta: “"Geez, what a pitiful guy... To be killed by guys with battle powers slightly over 1,000 at most...”

It's true that Goku calls Nappa "tough", an ambiguous adjective in the context. It could refer to power or what Kaboom was saying.

Then we have fight's where we know, factually the relative gaps and the outcomes. Talking about Vegeta against Kiwi, Dodoria and Zarbon(first fight). Besides Vegeta vs Goku were there's examples of gaps and exchanges. I underline, power levels aren't the only thing that influences a fight.
But what all these fight's have in common, is the loser inside a closer range than Nappa against Goku and yet they performed much worse.

Now answering Kaboom's arguments. Nowhere in the manga it says Nappa can't beat Goku, yes. Does it say he can? You pushed forward Piccolo's example. Let me quote the green fellow:

Spoiler:

Chapter: 198 (DBZ 4), P10.2-5
Piccolo: “You should be well aware that his strength is on a whole different level. [ ] He’s not an opponent you or I could oppose on our own…but if we join forces, there’s a slight chance we could defeat him!”

He's has an attack that killed an immobilized and damaged Raditz. Three way effort, not single effort which is what we are discussing.

Regarding Mr.Toriyama's quote, I don't think it should brought up in a in-Universe forum. Still I'll say something. The same way you think it applies to this case, I don't. Why? It's was made xx years after the Saiyan Arc, by a man who admits to be constantly forgetting stuff and most prevalent, he seems to be talking only regarding BoG, I don't believe it stretches more than that.

Concluding, like Kaboom said - in other words - opinions aren't facts. I just see my opinion with a solid foundation in the manga, contrary to the opposing view.

[Khin]

It wouldn't make sense for him to shit himself for Goku's mere 5,000 Power level if his PL is around 7,000.

[Kuririn Fan]

The thread title is misleading, "The old debate" could mean anything. And shouldnt this be in power levels thread, all of the power level guys from there are here too.

[Ash57]

There is no way that Nappa would take a hit from Goku with a pl of 4k...

Of course, there's no way someone could just get back up and keep fighting after taking hits from someone twice as strong as them. Not to even mention hits from someone twenty times stronger than them.

Two very different scenarios bro. Freeza was toying with Goku, while Goku and Nappa were all-out.

[Ash57]

It wouldn't make sense for him to shit himself for Goku's mere 5,000 Power level if his PL is around 7,000.

This one is old and responded. Nappa wasn't shitting himself, he was surprised that Goku powered up of 400 to 5,000 in much less than one year.

[Khin]

This one is old and responded. Nappa wasn't shitting himself, he was surprised that Goku powered up of 400 to 5,000 in much less than one year.

Except that they wasn't sure if it was Goku who is arriving.It was only said that someone with a Battle Power of 5,000 is arriving.It was only the next line where Vegeta confirmed that it was indeed Goku.

Chapter: 221 (DBZ 27), P14-3
Piccolo: “What?! What’s this ki?! A tremendous ki is approaching from afar!!”
Gohan: “It’s true. It’s…It’s an incredible, but familiar ki.”

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”

And also you don't need to double post,just edit your previous post and put your additional post there.

[Analytic]

It wouldn't make sense for him to shit himself for Goku's mere 5,000 Power level if his PL is around 7,000.

Not only had Nappa seen every Z-Fighter before him increase their initial battle power, but was explicitly told by Vegeta that these were the type of guys who hid their true power. Why would he expect 5,000 to be Goku's max?

If Nappa "shitting himself" automatically means inferiority, then Vegeta must be weaker too, since he also "shit himself."

[Khin]

Not only had Nappa seen every Z-Fighter before him increase their initial battle power, but was explicitly told by Vegeta that these were the type of guys who hid their true power. Why would he expect 5,000 to be Goku's max?

If Nappa "shitting himself" automatically means inferiority, then Vegeta must be weaker too, since he also "shit himself."

Vegeta only reminded him with their ability to hide there battles power right after the line where Nappa shitted himself.And there's nothing in the line i posted above that suggested that Vegeta is also scared of Goku.Heck,he even smiled when Goku arrived.

[apex_pretador]

I put him at 6000.
He can't be THAT far from goku nor he can be THAT close to goku.

Vegeta nor nappa believed in over 8000 for goku , but the manga seems to indicate that nappa is superior to goku's "5000" at least.

Piccolo flat out said he had no hope of winning (and he had krillin , gohan with him). All the fight was nappa toying with them , & he was shown to be able to one shot all them.

BUT

This shiz is so freakin' easy as soon as you let go of all the "but A is only X% of B so he can't do Y" nonsense.

this ^^^


Power levels are only indicators of who will win in a fight (Or who has a higher chance to win)

[LightBing]

It wouldn't make sense for him to shit himself for Goku's mere 5,000 Power level if his PL is around 7,000.

Then Vegeta tells him Goku's at 8000 and he still fights believing he can win, Vegeta further supporting this. It's all in my post right before yours...

[Khin]

Then Vegeta tells him Goku's at 8000 and he still fights believing he can win, Vegeta further supporting this. It's all in my post right before yours...

There's no line i saw that suggest that Nappa still believe he can beat Goku,even his best attack didn't work and was easily countered.And even so,they are a warrior race,do you expect him to just simply give up and let himself be killed ? I pretty much agree with Kaboom here,it's possible that Nappa got stronger while fighting Goku,but that doesn't mean he have a BP of around 7,000 from the get go.

[Kuririn Fan]

Nappa is 4000.

[Khin]

Nappa is 4000.

Great explanation.

It's just a joke obviously.

[LightBing]

I'm answering directly to your point above. You said it didn't make sense because of the 5000 line. Like I said, he and Vegeta both know Goku's at 8000 plus. Nappa still decides to fight, he gets a beat-down. Then Vegeta says this:

Spoiler:

Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P14.2
Context: after Goku has been outclassing Nappa
Vegeta: “Nappa!!!! Get a hold of yourself, fool!!!! He’s not an opponent you can’t take if you keep your head!!! Calm down!!!!”

Chapter: 226, (DBZ 32), P1.1
Nappa: “I really had lost my head. Now it’s time for me to show you what I'm really capable of.”

So yeah, both still believed Nappa had a shot. After another exchange were Nappa and Goku were even, which finished with Goku blocking his opponent's best attack with a kamehameha.
Only then did Vegeta said, you're done I'm gonna have to intervene.

[Gorou]

Nappa is first wounded by people with a level of 1000, or a little more.
It impressed because Goku has a level of 5000.

Then, relaxing, he fights almost on par with Goku. The last about says that "so do not end up more."

Therefore, a Nappa not concentrate has 4000.
A Nappa mentally shiny and concentrate has 7000.