SSGSS Goku and Vegeta and Rage Boosts and Stuff

[Polyphase Avatron]

Just wondering if any of you guys were ever followers of Bleach, because that series has always been known for messed up powerscaling that makes no sense, and DBS is starting to remind me of it in that respect.

[Khin]

Was Goku with the Kaio-Ken specifically said to be weaker than Beerus? I know about Toriyama's quote saying he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him, but the Kaio-Ken may simply not count in that regard, like how Goku didn't really "surpass" Vegeta with the Kaio-Ken on Earth. Didn't Goku also specifically say he was working on it to beat Beerus in the first place?

Well Goku back in Saiyan Arc can only use the Kaioken for a seconds.In an a fight,he would still lose to Vegeta.If we still put Goku around 70% Beerus,a regular kaioken would put Goku above him,Goku was sustaining Kaioken x10 for a while,so with just x2,he should be able to sustain it long enough to beat the crap out of Beerus.Which in my opinion counts as surpassing someone,well unless you don't think Kaioken Goku didn't surpassed Ginyu when they fought.

[TheMikado]

Just wondering if any of you guys were ever followers of Bleach, because that series has always been known for messed up powerscaling that makes no sense, and DBS is starting to remind me of it in that respect.

This is the exact reason I HATE bleach and refuse to watch it after the time skip.

Bad power scaling destroys the narratives and made it unwatchable for me personally.

[GodVegetto91]

There's one thing that bothers me. And it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you have overlooked that aswell.
After reviewing the episode a couple of times. I noticed that when Beerus was acting all nervous about Goku's kaioken technique.. He was still in his normal Kaioken form(2 x) And that was BEFORE Hit noticed him Tripling, Quadripling and finally making it to 10x kaioken.

[Hitiro]

There's one thing that bothers me. And it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you have overlooked that aswell.
After reviewing the episode a couple of times. I noticed that when Beerus was acting all nervous about Goku's kaioken technique.. He was still in his normal Kaioken form(2 x) And that was BEFORE Hit noticed him Tripling, Quadripling and finally making it to 10x kaioken.

I had already made this assertion but it was shrugged off because a interview that could have happened one or two months ago says that there currently were no plans to make Goku surpass Beerus. At most it was two months ago and two months is plenty of time for this statement to be regarded as null considering that Akira said he didn't plan for it "right now" that doesn't mean that two thirds of the way through the season(As seasons are broken up into 3 months) that couldn't change or that "right now" just meant where they are currently in the anime.

[Khin]

There's one thing that bothers me. And it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you have overlooked that aswell.
After reviewing the episode a couple of times. I noticed that when Beerus was acting all nervous about Goku's kaioken technique.. He was still in his normal Kaioken form(2 x) And that was BEFORE Hit noticed him Tripling, Quadripling and finally making it to 10x kaioken.

Kaio-ken is taught by Kaio.Beerus and Kaio seems close to each that they played racing game,hide and seek etc.So it's possible that Beerus knew about the Kaio-ken and also knew that it multiplies one's power up to 10x,20x etc.So he probably take that into a possibility when Goku turned Kaioken.

[ryan s]

There's one thing that bothers me. And it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you have overlooked that aswell.
After reviewing the episode a couple of times. I noticed that when Beerus was acting all nervous about Goku's kaioken technique.. He was still in his normal Kaioken form(2 x) And that was BEFORE Hit noticed him Tripling, Quadripling and finally making it to 10x kaioken.

I had already made this assertion but it was shrugged off because a interview that could have happened one or two months ago says that there currently were no plans to make Goku surpass Beerus. At most it was two months ago and two months is plenty of time for this statement to be regarded as null considering that Akira said he didn't plan for it "right now" that doesn't mean that two thirds of the way through the season(As seasons are broken up into 3 months) that couldn't change or that "right now" just meant where they are currently in the anime.

the interview was released two weeks ago, it does not matter when it was done, it matters when it was released, they obviously set a release date and the information was obviously still valid at the time so it is shrugged of because it is not logical

[GodVegetto91]

There's one thing that bothers me. And it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you have overlooked that aswell.
After reviewing the episode a couple of times. I noticed that when Beerus was acting all nervous about Goku's kaioken technique.. He was still in his normal Kaioken form(2 x) And that was BEFORE Hit noticed him Tripling, Quadripling and finally making it to 10x kaioken.

I had already made this assertion but it was shrugged off because a interview that could have happened one or two months ago says that there currently were no plans to make Goku surpass Beerus. At most it was two months ago and two months is plenty of time for this statement to be regarded as null considering that Akira said he didn't plan for it "right now" that doesn't mean that two thirds of the way through the season(As seasons are broken up into 3 months) that couldn't change or that "right now" just meant where they are currently in the anime.

the interview was released two weeks ago, it does not matter when it was done, it matters when it was released, they obviously set a release date and the information was obviously still valid at the time so it is shrugged of because it is not logical

Well i think we should definitely wait until next episode for further clarification before jumping to conclusions. Especially considering all the amount of retcons.
Who knows they might make a strength related comment about Goku in regards to Beerus.

[Hitiro]

the interview was released two weeks ago, it does not matter when it was done, it matters when it was released, they obviously set a release date and the information was obviously still valid at the time so it is shrugged of because it is not logical

It does matter when it was done. If he had said "Currently I don't have any plans for Goku to surpass Beerus." When FnF that would have no bearing on current events. Likewise in the interview he stated that he currently didn't have any plans for Goku to surpass Beerus but currently was then, when he made the comment. The now is vastly different. It is illogical to shrug off actual in-universe reactions because of what the Author said a month or a few months ago. Beerus clearly reacted in a manner which indicated he is nervous about this new form. Whis even mocks him and asks if he is afraid of this new technique to which Beerus quickly averts his disposition and tries to palm it off as disappointment that Goku didn't use the technique sooner. Even Vegeta got his word in, even if it was an internal dialogue, that the form is much more fearsome than Beerus was trying to treat it as.

[ryan s]

the interview was released two weeks ago, it does not matter when it was done, it matters when it was released, they obviously set a release date and the information was obviously still valid at the time so it is shrugged of because it is not logical

It does matter when it was done. If he had said "Currently I don't have any plans for Goku to surpass Beerus." When FnF that would have no bearing on current events. Likewise in the interview he stated that he currently didn't have any plans for Goku to surpass Beerus but currently was then, when he made the comment. The now is vastly different. It is illogical to shrug off actual in-universe reactions because of what the Author said a month or a few months ago. Beerus clearly reacted in a manner which indicated he is nervous about this new form. Whis even mocks him and asks if he is afraid of this new technique to which Beerus quickly averts his disposition and tries to palm it off as disappointment that Goku didn't use the technique sooner. Even Vegeta got his word in, even if it was an internal dialogue, that the form is much more fearsome than Beerus was trying to treat it as.

there was no indication that goku had surpassed beerus he even said "as if" sure he was nervous but that does not mean he was surpassed nor did i shrug off in universe reactions even though they are done by toei, when it comes back in a future episode that is going to prove beerus has not been surpassed, i am going to come back here and show you that you should have listened, you can do the same to me if i am wrong, the interview is valid in my mind but not 100% fixed

[dbgtFO]

I struggle to see how Toriyama's statement can be taken to mean as only applying to that point in time they made the interview(late RoF arc or beginning of Champa arc), when their discussion covers future plots as well.
Basically Toriyama has already come up with the next story arc, but still he does not currently have plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
Maybe Toriyama is lying, but I wouldn't take him for a liar and the statement on its own obviously applies the future arcs as well.
Let's not twist every statement just because we want to make an old comment fit.

[MajinBrolyYamcha]

Rage Vegeta < SSG Goku < SSGSSJ Goku = SSGSSJ Vegeta < Beerus < Whis

[Darkprince410]

Rage Vegeta < SSG Goku < SSGSSJ Goku = SSGSSJ Vegeta < Beerus < Whis

Not to play moderator, but posts like this are generally frowned upon on here. If you're going to make posts, it's better to actually put time and effort into actually explaining your points, not making just a single formulaic string and leave it at that.

[ryan s]

nevertheless Akira said what he said and he clearly was past the universe 6 arc,

it was released two weeks ago you don`t release old information, two weeks ago they brought it out to the public to advertise super meaning it is very much valid

yet he still did not see Goku as a problem, he was not scared of Goku as you claim

You release information when it becomes available. They compiled the first 9 chapters along with the Jump Victory Carnival 2015 bonus comic including this interview. Chapter 10 was released March 19th. 2 weeks before this volume, and interview, was released. So what does that tell you? It tells you that this volume was being compiled before the 19th of March or effictively was compiled before the 19th of March to be released at a later date.

If it was a month or two ago then that is, at most 8, episodes ago which is just before the Universe 6 arc. So that is plenty of time for Goku to not be seen as passing Beerus for a while.

And I've checked the episode. Beerus does seem troubled by this new technique that Goku has. He does try to shrug it off at nothing but you can see that he is worried about it.

i think it is safe to say you were wrong, hit being scared of champa, goku thinking monoka can handle hit and not even being shocked at his victory ,i am sure a translation will provide even more evidence though this should not come as a surprise considering the interview came out three weeks ago

[Hitiro]

i think it is safe to say you were wrong, hit being scared of champa, goku thinking monoka can handle hit and not even being shocked at his victory ,i am sure a translation will provide even more evidence though this should not come as a surprise considering the interview came out three weeks ago

Not sure where you're getting the "Hit being scared of Champa" part.

Spoiler:

If anything he is worried about not being able to fight back due to his current state after the fight with Goku. Both Goku and Hit look in Champa's direction because he is threatening Cabba and it scares Champa back into his seat... Just going by this it implies Goku or Hit are actually a major threat.
http://i.imgur.com/uRXW5ke.gifv

[ryan s]

i think it is safe to say you were wrong, hit being scared of champa, goku thinking monoka can handle hit and not even being shocked at his victory ,i am sure a translation will provide even more evidence though this should not come as a surprise considering the interview came out three weeks ago

Not sure where you're getting the "Hit being scared of Champa" part.

Spoiler:

If anything he is worried about not being able to fight back due to his current state after the fight with Goku. Both Goku and Hit look in Champa's direction because he is threatening Cabba and it scares Champa back into his seat... Just going by this it implies Goku or Hit are actually a major threat.
http://i.imgur.com/uRXW5ke.gifv

give it up you were wrong hit was still able to fight at full power the whole episode implied that, goku even asked him too and champa brags how not even time skip or ssj are a match for him even though this should have all been common sense, this episode gave no indication goku > the gods in fact it did the opposite

"Goku’s not worried, since they’ve still got Monaka, the strongest in Universe 7" funny goku should be stronger then beerus right? this is from herms
"Champa brags that not even Time-Skip or Super Saiyan are any match for him."
"Hearing themselves referred to as “pawns”, Goku and Hit both glare at Champa, who falls back in alarm." "Hit says that they are after all merely pawns in a game, but Goku responds “for now”.

the interview came out three weeks ago it was absurd to think it, still does not apply

[Hitiro]

give it up you were wrong hit was still able to fight at full power the whole episode implied that, goku even asked him too and champa brags how not even time skip or ssj are a match for him even though this should have all been common sense, this episode gave no indication goku > the gods in fact it did the opposite

Goku says Hit hasn't been able to go all out but his martial arts specialise in killing people and he has been fighting with that disadvantage from the start. So Hit could have been using his full power but trying to not kill him. As Huijo said " Hit is unable to utilize his full power." So it's not that he isn't at full power. It's just that he can't utilize(make practical and effective use of) it as he normally does because he is trying not to kill Goku, which is what his martial arts are all about. Furthermore why should Champa bragging make any difference to your assertion? Plenty of characters have bragged before that using such and such still won't be able to match them yet they are evidently proven wrong later. You say that there is no indication of Goku > the gods but we have a direct example of Goku and Hit scaring Champa back into his seat. "Hearing themselves referred to as “pawns”, Goku and Hit both glare at Champa, who falls back in alarm."

"Goku’s not worried, since they’ve still got Monaka, the strongest in Universe 7" funny goku should be stronger then beerus right? this is from herms

That's incorrect, this is from Huijo, not Herms. And why should this have any bearing on Goku being stronger than Beerus? Beerus never says that he won against Monaka. The only thing we get from him is that Monaka is supposed to be stronger than Goku. Goku doesn't know how strong Monaka is supposed to be.

"Champa brags that not even Time-Skip or Super Saiyan are any match for him."

Again, bragging means nothing, characters who have bragged have been proven wrong in the past. Why should this be any different? Especially seeing as both Goku and Hit have lost some power from fighting.

"Hearing themselves referred to as “pawns”, Goku and Hit both glare at Champa, who falls back in alarm." "Hit says that they are after all merely pawns in a game, but Goku responds “for now”.

This is correct, they are merely pawns in their game. Why is this relevant? You can be a pawn and still more powerful than the person who is using you as a pawn. Knights are used as pawns by Kings even though the King probably does not have the skill or strength of a Knight.

the interview came out three weeks ago it was absurd to think it, still does not apply

The interview was released to the public 3 weeks ago. It could have been made 2 or even 3 months ago. So it isn't absurd to think that it does not apply any more.

[ryan s]

At this point your just too proud to admit it and you are just throwing away evidence and trying to explain it away.

Monoka is said to be weaker then Beerus (even more so in the manga) it is illogical to think he is stronger and that he can beat Beerus, the fact that Goku claims Monaka is the strongest clearly shows that he knows he can`t beat Beerus, Beerus is above kaioken x10 Goku and hit therefore Champa would be also (i assume), it would be pretty dumb for Goku refer to Monoka as the strongest when he himself would be the strongest now because he is now above Beerus according to you the logic does not add up

champa bragging was obviously not a lie, hit was still cabable of fighting and was clearly scared and intimidated, there is no indication hit can not use his full power, after all the whole episode was about goku asking for a rule change so he can use his full ability's yet hit clearly knew he could not win against champa , only justifying champa`s bragging

yes they pushed champa down great evidence, piccolo knocked final form frieza away with a kick guess that means piccolo > frieza, no it just means they can put up a fight against champa obviously ssg goku put up a fight against Beerus, how you come to the conclusion that pushing someone down means they are stronger is beyond me and considering that is was both of them not just Goku himself, again how this means kkx10 goku> champa makes no sense

again your the only one arguig this because everyone else can see it, because it is pretty obvious but obviously you are to stubborn. there is littrally no evidence goku has surpassed beerus you would think they would mention it after all it is his goal and he knows beerus > monoka yet you claim Goku> beerus > monoka, goku must be pretty thick to not know he has eclipsed beerus in power according to you anyway

it really is absurd considering we are now getting into what akira was talking about in the interview a returning character (arale i would assume) and a new universe (which i assume ties into that new lord of everything) all evidence points that he had written past the universe 6 arc in the interview and had no plans for goku to surpass beerus

reading the summary clearly shows hit had a lot of fight left and they wanted a all out battle

where is it stated they lost power? the opposite is implied that they can still fight all out
how does goku and hits combined force mean they are stronger then champa ? because they pushed him down?
probably best to wait for the sub version though

[Hitiro]

Monoka is said to be weaker then Beerus (even more so in the manga) it is illogical to think he is stronger and that he can beat Beerus,

Never was this assertion ever made. Where are you getting this from? Beerus only said that Monaka is the strongest person he's ever fought.

the fact that Goku claims Monaka is the strongest clearly shows that he knows he can`t beat Beerus,

If Goku claims that Monaka is the strongest surely that means Manaka is stronger than Beerus? Otherwise why would he be called the strongest if he's not?... Are you telling me that Goku is claiming that Monaka is the strongest in universe 7 but that doesn't include Beerus or Whis? If Goku is claiming Monaka is the strongest that means out of everyone. So even if Goku is superior to Beerus, or even Whis, that doesn't mean he's superior to the "strongest" of Universe 7 which is Monaka.

Beerus is above kaioken x10 Goku and hit therefore Champa would be also, it would be pretty dumb for Goku refer to Monoka as the strongest when he himself would be the strongest now because he is now above Beerus according to you

It would be pretty dumb for Goku to claim that Monaka is the strongest when Beerus and Whis is actually stronger. Correct? Then why refer to Monaka as being the strongest of universe 7 if he is weaker than at least 2 other people? You're logic is flawed. And if Champa really is above SSJB KKx10 Goku then why was he scared back into his seat? Why feel threatened by a character/characters you clearly outrank?

champa bragging was obviously not a lie, hit was still cabable of fighting and was clearly scared and intimidated, there is no indication hit can not use his full power, after all the whole episode was about goku asking for a rule change so he can use his full ability's yet hit clearly knew he could not win, only justifying champa`s bragging

Hit had taken damage. There is no reason to assume that this damage didn't weaken him especially considering every other character who takes damage gets weakened too. What makes him function outside the norm? He may have more energy to fight than Goku but that doesn't change the fact that he lost energy from fighting Goku. As I said in the previous post there is no indication he is not currently using his full power. As Huijo said he couldn't utilize his full power. That merely means that he could be at full power but not fight properly with it. Like how Goku couldn't fight with the SSJGod power properly the first time he gets it. As I said, utilize means to make "practical and effective" use of something. Furthermore even assuming he wasn't using his full power that does not mean his full power wouldn't have dropped. Cell was suppressed when he was fighting Goku and Goku caused damage which cause Cell to lose power. There is no reason to assume that Hit hadn't taken any damage during this fight. If he took damage his power is less than what it was, even if he was suppressed. It doesn't really justify Champa's bragging at all either. The only reason Goku couldn't win against Hit was because of the strain KKx10 was putting on his stamina and body.

yes they pushed champa down great evidence, piccolo knocked final form frieza away with a kick guess that means piccolo > frieza, no it just means they can put up a fight against champa obviously ssg goku put up a fight against Beerus, how you come to the conclusion that pushing someone down means they are stronger is beyond me and considering that is was both of them not just Goku himself

What is that? That is a completely different scenario. Piccolo knocked Freeza down because he was caught off-guard. Champa fell back into his seat because he was scared into it by Goku and Hit. The fact that Champa was scared into his seat would suggest that one, or both of them, are above Champa before they continued the fight. A character superior to them would not be scared into his seat and start babbling like an idiot.

again your the only one arguig this because everyone else can see it, because it is pretty obvious but obviously you are to stubborn. there is littrally no evidence goku has surpassed beerus you would think they would mention it after all it is his goal and he knows beerus > monoka yet you claim Goku> beerus > monoka, goku must be pretty think to not know he has eclipsed beerus in power

I'm arguing this because you're the one who isn't been logical here. It is entirely possible that Goku and Hit are superior to the Gods given the way both Gods acted in reaction to these individuals in the past 2 episodes. Nothing you've said can't be taken as Goku and Hit being superior.

[ryan s]

It is said by Whis in the manga that he is capable of giving Beerus a hard time, it is also common sense that he is not stronger then Beerus thus why no one ever thought he was

Seriously now your claiming the hypothetical Monoka > Whis> Beerus? he means strongest in the competition honestly that is not rocket science and to even claim such a thing is absurdly ludicrous, Goku asked Beerus "how strong is Monoka" Beerus said "the strongest i have ever faced son goku you are not the strongest i have faced" and later when the tournament begins Beerus says "Monoka is last because he is the strongest" this not rocket science also Whis says he can give Beerus a hard time but he can beat whis according to you, no that is just very illogical

my logic is flawed? Monoka is the strongest in the competition, no where did goku say he is the strongest in universe 7 but in the competition honestly is this how illogical you are going now, i will address the rest later this is first because it is so flawed.

due to the fact goku still thought monoka was stronger then him clearly shows us beerus is stronger then him even at kaioken x10

bro you are being very illogical far more then me, first you claim goku thinks monoka > whis and then you say, "goku said monoka is the strongest in universe 7" which is never said i might add and in common sense land it obviously means the tournament


champa was not scared into his seat but knocked back off guard


i am going by what is stated, hit was still able to fight at his full power weather it goes against the norm or not i don`t care