SSGSS Goku and Vegeta and Rage Boosts and Stuff

[ryan s]

we know Goku and Vegeta won`t be surpassing the gods, Goku used kaioken x10 and is still weaker then beerus, that would put rage vegeta above ssb Goku that does not even make sense.

it would only make sense if Beerus lied

[Desassina]

it would only make sense if Beerus lied

You have won the internet. Seriously, with material as fickle as this, I wouldn't worry about making sense with it.

[ryan s]

it would only make sense if Beerus lied

You have won the internet. Seriously, with material as fickle as this, I wouldn't worry about making sense with it.

agreed it is fickle and they honestly need to keep this consistent

[Polyphase Avatron]

it would only make sense if Beerus lied

You have won the internet. Seriously, with material as fickle as this, I wouldn't worry about making sense with it.

agreed it is fickle and they honestly need to keep this consistent

I don't think they care at this point.

[apex_pretador]

No,
SSB >> SSG >> SSG (Initial) >>> Goku (everyone's ki) >> Rageta

[Kaboom]

Was Goku with the Kaio-Ken specifically said to be weaker than Beerus? I know about Toriyama's quote saying he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him, but the Kaio-Ken may simply not count in that regard, like how Goku didn't really "surpass" Vegeta with the Kaio-Ken on Earth. Didn't Goku also specifically say he was working on it to beat Beerus in the first place?

[ryan s]

Was Goku with the Kaio-Ken specifically said to be weaker than Beerus? I know about Toriyama's quote saying he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him, but the Kaio-Ken may simply not count in that regard, like how Goku didn't really "surpass" Vegeta with the Kaio-Ken on Earth. Didn't Goku also specifically say he was working on it to beat Beerus in the first place?

i see your point and i thought about it before but Goku would be stronger therefore Beerus is surpassed

even with Vegeta, kaioken x3 Goku surpassed him in strength

i think we can both agree though the power scaling is messed up, i am going to wait for dragon team subs before i go onto him using it on Beerus ,

apex: saying something without evidence does not make it valid

[apex_pretador]

apex: saying something without evidence does not make it valid

OK

No,
SSB >> SSG >> SSG (Initial) >>> Goku (everyone's ki) >> Rageta

Goku (with everyone's ki) was implied to be much stronger than rageta, but still beerus thought it was nothing.
SSG goku (initial) was incredibly stronger than goku (everyone's ki) just by adding pan into the mix.

Goku powered up throughout the fight, up to the point where he pushed beerus to "100%" (lying).

SSB is said to surpass SSG when it is introduced.

[ryan s]

apex: saying something without evidence does not make it valid

OK

No,
SSB >> SSG >> SSG (Initial) >>> Goku (everyone's ki) >> Rageta

Goku (with everyone's ki) was implied to be much stronger than rageta, but still beerus thought it was nothing.
SSG goku (initial) was incredibly stronger than goku (everyone's ki) just by adding pan into the mix.

Goku powered up throughout the fight, up to the point where he pushed beerus to "100%" (lying).

SSB is said to surpass SSG when it is introduced.

i don`t disagree with any of that but if ssgss Goku multiplied by 10x is not stronger then Beerus and rage Vegeta is 10% beerus, there is only one conclusion

[apex_pretador]

OK

No,
SSB >> SSG >> SSG (Initial) >>> Goku (everyone's ki) >> Rageta

Goku (with everyone's ki) was implied to be much stronger than rageta, but still beerus thought it was nothing.
SSG goku (initial) was incredibly stronger than goku (everyone's ki) just by adding pan into the mix.

Goku powered up throughout the fight, up to the point where he pushed beerus to "100%" (lying).

SSB is said to surpass SSG when it is introduced.

i don`t disagree with any of that but if ssgss Goku multiplied by 10x is not stronger then Beerus and rage Vegeta is 10% beerus, there is only one conclusion

From your own post:

apex: saying something without evidence does not make it valid

[dbgtFO]

i don`t disagree with any of that but if ssgss Goku multiplied by 10x is not stronger then Beerus and rage Vegeta is 10% beerus, there is only one conclusion

Yes, Beerus is a pathological liar.

[Hugo Boss]

Was Goku with the Kaio-Ken specifically said to be weaker than Beerus? I know about Toriyama's quote saying he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him, but the Kaio-Ken may simply not count in that regard, like how Goku didn't really "surpass" Vegeta with the Kaio-Ken on Earth. Didn't Goku also specifically say he was working on it to beat Beerus in the first place?

From the bit of dialogue between Beerus and Whis, it seems kaioken allows Goku to compete with Beerus or possibly surpassing him.

Spoiler:

Beerus wonders if Goku was really going to use this technique against him. Whis teases Beerus, asking is he finds that idea a bit scary, but he flatly denies this. Instead, he’s simply annoyed that Goku didn’t use such a handy technique earlier.

Though, we will never know until Goku tries to use it against Beerus.

[Speedster]

we know Goku and Vegeta won`t be surpassing the gods, Goku used kaioken x10 and is still weaker then beerus, that would put rage vegeta above ssb Goku that does not even make sense.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the Beerus' percentile scale is different from the scouter scale? We have seen this time and again. Need I remind you of Old Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power against pre-ultra divine water kid Goku and outclassing him? Where do you put that Goku given that Roshi had a power level of 139 and where do you put Old Piccolo Daimao, given Piccolo Jr at the Radditz saga had a power level of 408 and he was immensely more powerful than his father at the time? (Piccolo Jr Radditz saga>Piccolo Jr 23rd TB>>Young Piccolo Daimao>>Old Piccolo Daimao)

Not only this but even in terms of feats the scouter scale is shown to represent different actual strength/power increases despite equal increases in power level.
Range 5-500 (i.e. x100): Human to moon busting level --increase of 10^25 times in energy output per unit time
Range 500-5000 (i.e. again x100): Moon busting to Earth/planet busting level -- increase of only 10^3-10^4 times in energy output per unit time

Bottom line is that you should never try to impose a fixed scaling in Dragonball. It never worked that way and it will never will. The numerical power levels were dropped for a reason. Anyone who actually believes that numerical power level scaling is/was ever based on a consisted set of predetermined rules and formulas/multipliers is at best a casual fan or at worst a headcanon artist who is so narrow minded to see past their worthless headcanons they are so infatuated with.

[ryan s]

Was Goku with the Kaio-Ken specifically said to be weaker than Beerus? I know about Toriyama's quote saying he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him, but the Kaio-Ken may simply not count in that regard, like how Goku didn't really "surpass" Vegeta with the Kaio-Ken on Earth. Didn't Goku also specifically say he was working on it to beat Beerus in the first place?

From the bit of dialogue between Beerus and Whis, it seems kaioken allows Goku to compete with Beerus or possibly surpassing him.

Spoiler:

Beerus wonders if Goku was really going to use this technique against him. Whis teases Beerus, asking is he finds that idea a bit scary, but he flatly denies this. Instead, he’s simply annoyed that Goku didn’t use such a handy technique earlier.

Though, we will never know until Goku tries to use it against Beerus.

the dialog does not overwrite Akiras plans so we know he has not surpassed him,i would also rather wait for dragon team

[Hitiro]

the dialog does not overwrite Akiras plans so we know he has not surpassed him,i would also rather wait for dragon team

The fact that Whis even suggests that Beerus could be scared should show the effectiveness of the technique with SSJB surely? So why couldn't it overwrite Akira's plans?

[ryan s]

the dialog does not overwrite Akiras plans so we know he has not surpassed him,i would also rather wait for dragon team

The fact that Whis even suggests that Beerus could be scared should show the effectiveness of the technique with SSJB surely? So why couldn't it overwrite Akira's plans?

because he said it two weeks ago and has clearly already planned past the universe 6 arc
logically he is keeping to his plans

also you have not even waited for a good translation no where was beerus scared

[Hitiro]

the dialog does not overwrite Akiras plans so we know he has not surpassed him,i would also rather wait for dragon team

The fact that Whis even suggests that Beerus could be scared should show the effectiveness of the technique with SSJB surely? So why couldn't it overwrite Akira's plans?

because he said it two weeks ago and has clearly already planned past the universe 6 arc
logically he is keeping to his plans

also you have not even waited for a good translation no where was beerus scared

Huijo did a plot summary of the episode earlier in the Dragon Ball Super thread. This is what is said.

Whis teases Beerus, asking is he finds that idea a bit scary, but he flatly denies this. Instead, he’s simply annoyed that Goku didn’t use such a handy technique earlier. But Vegeta realizes why: the Kaio-Ken increases one’s strength but in exchange uses up all of one’s stamina.

This is plenty reliable. Also, the volume that this interview came with was released on the 4th of April. So Akira Toriyam didn't say it two weeks ago. It would have been done a while before that. These things take time to be compiled and the meeting would have to have been set up prior to the volumes selling for it to be printed in the actual volume... The interview could have been compiled a month or two ago for all we know.

[ryan s]

nevertheless Akira said what he said and he clearly was past the universe 6 arc,

it was released two weeks ago you don`t release old information, two weeks ago they brought it out to the public to advertise super meaning it is very much valid

yet he still did not see Goku as a problem, he was not scared of Goku as you claim

[Birusu16]

Was Goku with the Kaio-Ken specifically said to be weaker than Beerus? I know about Toriyama's quote saying he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass him, but the Kaio-Ken may simply not count in that regard, like how Goku didn't really "surpass" Vegeta with the Kaio-Ken on Earth. Didn't Goku also specifically say he was working on it to beat Beerus in the first place?

Why wouldn't it count? If it counts for him surpassing Vegeta (and it does considering Vegeta is furious that he's been surpassed once again in this episode) then it surely would count for him surpassing Beerus.

And he says he was working on it to use against Beerus, not beat.

And we can come to a logical conclusion that he isn't stronger than Beerus from looking at his performance against Hit. Hit's taking his attacks and getting back up easily. Heck, he looks to be even with Goku in the preview. And we know Hit is weaker than Champa because Champa intends on destroying his defeated team in episode 40.

[Hitiro]

nevertheless Akira said what he said and he clearly was past the universe 6 arc,

it was released two weeks ago you don`t release old information, two weeks ago they brought it out to the public to advertise super meaning it is very much valid

yet he still did not see Goku as a problem, he was not scared of Goku as you claim

You release information when it becomes available. They compiled the first 9 chapters along with the Jump Victory Carnival 2015 bonus comic including this interview. Chapter 10 was released March 19th. 2 weeks before this volume, and interview, was released. So what does that tell you? It tells you that this volume was being compiled before the 19th of March or effictively was compiled before the 19th of March to be released at a later date.

If it was a month or two ago then that is, at most 8, episodes ago which is just before the Universe 6 arc. So that is plenty of time for Goku to not be seen as passing Beerus for a while.

And I've checked the episode. Beerus does seem troubled by this new technique that Goku has. He does try to shrug it off at nothing but you can see that he is worried about it.