SSGSS Goku and Vegeta and Rage Boosts and Stuff

[ryan s]

If you read the quote from Ep. 40's synopsis, it's said Monaka is the strongest in Universe 7.. So, it's said he is stronger than Beerus and everyone else. There is no exception. This is a logical conclusion one can make. You can disagree with it or say it's poorly written, but the line says what it says. I would agree with you if it was said Monaka was the strongest combatant out of Universe 7 team.. which is different.

Yes because you can't take a quote in context therefore it must be taken literally your logic is flawed. When a guy says he has shaved his hair he clearly means one hair right? Context and common sense goku has only been told he faught beerus he clearly means out of the fighters do you really need it spelled out for you?

[ryan s]

.[/quote]
Yes because you can't take a quote in context therefore it must be taken literally your logic is flawed. When a guy says he has shaved his hair he clearly means one hair right? Context and common sense goku has only been told he faught beerus he clearly means out of the fighters do you really need it spelled out for you must Toei quote everything that can be clearly understood?

The quote is strongest guy in universe 7 from dragon team subs I don't see a problem with this as beerus and whis are gods

How using a summary of the episode removes guy from the equation is beyond me because it is said

This is your reasoning: A guy comes up to us and says he has shaved his hair , all evidence shows that he has had a full shave and he himself says a full shave but you go it can still mean he has shaved one hair therefore I am still logical, the truth is you are not

1) it is outright stated many times he is stronger then goku not beerus
2) the manga says he is weaker then beerus
3) the official website says stronger then goku
4) beerus made up monoka and it is out of character for beerus to make someone stronger then himself

Your evidence sums up to manipulation of quotes ie he shaved his hair literally one hair tactics and silence on the subject when logically in dragon ball they would emphasize beerus being surpassed

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not saying the information you have collected are wrong! As a matter of fact, we all know Monaka isn't as strong as Beerus implied.. I only pointed out a mistake I realized in your placements.

You don't seem to understand what I'm talking about. Logic has nothing to do with context. Logic concerns the premises being used. If you are told that "X" is the strongest in Universe "Y", then "X" is stronger than anyone in Universe "Y". Point.

Anyway, your example with shaving does not make much sense. If I say I'm going to shave, so I'll shave. I'm not talking about how I'm going to shave. I can choose to take all, I can take only a part. I can make drawings with it. I can do whatever I want with the hair. No context is given.

Here we are talking about a very simple thing. Who is the strongest in Universe 7? According to the synopsis that I mentioned, Goku says Monaka is the strongest. So, the only things you can do is complain to who wrote the sentence or ignore it.

My intention is not to manipulate the sense of it, just clear up what it says. If you insist on not wanting to see it, it's better wrap up this discussion and move on.

[Tectorman]

The recent nature of one side of the conversation in this thread is reminding me an awful lot of:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=33000

Specifically,

This entire thread just reeks of "I just can't understand why other people can't see things the way I do. Don't they realize that I know better?"

Which I find unfortunate.

[ryan s]

I'm not saying the information you have collected are wrong! As a matter of fact, we all know Monaka isn't as strong as Beerus implied.. I only pointed out a mistake I realized in your placements.

You don't seem to understand what I'm talking about. Logic has nothing to do with context. Logic concerns the premises being used. If you are told that "X" is the strongest in Universe "Y", then "X" is stronger than anyone in Universe "Y". Point.

Anyway, your example with shaving does not make much sense. If I say I'm going to shave, so I'll shave. I'm not talking about how I'm going to shave. I can choose to take all, I can take only a part. I can make drawings with it. I can do whatever I want with the hair. No context is given.

Here we are talking about a very simple thing. Who is the strongest in Universe 7? According to the synopsis that I mentioned, Goku says Monaka is the strongest. So, the only things you can do is complain to who wrote the sentence or ignore it.

My intention is not to manipulate the sense of it, just clear up what it says. If you insist on not wanting to see it, it's better wrap up this discussion and move on.

it makes perfect sense your looking at the quote as only one possibility

What is the team called? Universe 7
Who is the strongest? Monoka

It is poor reasoning throwing away all evidence,and taking a quote out of context to create evidence for your side that does not exist

It's not about I know better, every dragon ball youtube knows beerus > monoka and all evidence says beerus> monoka, yet one line that says monoka is the strongest guy in universe 7 proves that goku thinks monoka> whis? I guess when talking about a team I always have to say team Chelsea but wait no one does that it is poor evidence and quite frankly the only evidence

Also when beerus says universe 6 this is the super sayain he is clearly talking to everyone in the universe right? No he is talking to the team, just like goku was that fits the context of all episodes up to this point and all the evidence

I created another thread please reply on there it is more on topic

[ryan s]

[if you go to the character bios on page 7 (I think wriiten by Akira) this is what is said hero whose name means “Grand Ponta (nipples)”. He’s said to be powerful enough to give even Beerus a hard time, but will we get to see what he’s truly capable of?!

Now we can end this debate I was right

Yea it was written by Akira looks like I was not being arrogant but using logic while you guys were manipulating quotes and trying to use the silence argument

This also confirms. Kkx10 goku < beerus

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/page/7/

This is not what I was looking for as their is another quote that I am sure confirms this also

[Hugo Boss]

To be fair, I never said "Monaka is the strongest in Universe 7" was the only possibility nor that I proved anything. Actually, you don't realize I was trying to help you. But I don't know what is in your head, honestly.

To know Goku's talking about Universe 7's team, we have to elaborate, because the line itself is vague. The line we have in the Fact Thread is clearer, it's said Monaka is stronger than Goku. I think it probably will help you prove what you want.

Your example with soccer teams is something I didn't consider, so to not disregard this line I think we could contextualize as you suggested.. (...strongest in Universe 7['s team]!..). This is a possibility I can stick with, I like it.

When Beerus says "Universe 6! This a Super Saiyan!", he seems to be calling everyone from Universe 6 that could see Goku transformed. The context is there. If you can understand what it means here, I guess you should have no problem with the other above.

Finally, I should say this. None who calls himself/herself a member of Kanzenshuu is interested in manipulating quotes, using whatever kind of argument that exists or proving anything. This is a community concerned with collecting safe information and discussing them friendly. Also, there is no need to resort to indirect insults. I understand exactly what your "youtube" comment means. That's not cool.

[ryan s]

To be fair, I never said "Monaka is the strongest in Universe 7" was the only possibility nor that I proved anything. Actually, you don't realize I was trying to help you. But I don't know what is in your head, honestly.

To know Goku's talking about Universe 7's team, we have to elaborate, because the line itself is vague. The line we have in the Fact Thread is clearer, it's said Monaka is stronger than Goku. I think it probably will help you prove what you want.

Your example with soccer teams is something I didn't consider, so to not disregard this line I think we could contextualize as you suggested.. (...strongest in Universe 7['s team]!..). This is a possibility I can stick with, I like it.

When Beerus says "Universe 6! This a Super Saiyan!", he seems to be calling everyone from Universe 6 that could see Goku transformed. The context is there. If you can understand what it means here, I guess you should have no problem with the other above.

Finally, I should say this. None who calls himself/herself a member of Kanzenshuu is interested in manipulating quotes, using whatever kind of argument that exists or proving anything. This is a community concerned with collecting safe information and discussing them friendly. Also, there is no need to resort to indirect insults. I understand exactly what your "youtube" comment means. That's not cool.

No idea what you mean by youtube comments, nor was I throwing insult's, I was just being honest that you guys were being illogical and i had good reason to say that

1) the manga says that monoka is below beerus
2) he is only ever implied to be stronger then goku
3) on the official dragon ball super site it says stronger then goku, you would think they would emphasize it as they always do
4) beerus would not want someone stronger then himself and would be too proud to create someone who is stronger then himself
5) it seems Akira had written bios and says monoka is below beerus (though I only just searched the site and did not provide this as evidence)

There is no evidence suggesting monoka> beerus, none so yes I got frustrated and annoyed , though saying someone is not using logic is not a insult anyone who is honest knows they are not always logical in their reasoning

You threw out evidence just because of your bias towards a character in this instance kkx10 goku

I could argue beerus = whis in strength as It has not been stated that whis is stronger in super and beerus claims he is the strongest but it is poor reasoning, I could do what you guys were doing and interpret points and evidence to support my theory that beerus is the strongest but all evidence clearly shows whis > beerus it may not be in the super anime but there is tons outside of it

[Hugo Boss]

No idea what you mean by youtube comments

This..

It's not about I know better, every dragon ball youtube knows (*stuff*)

Being honest and saying someone is illogical are different things. Not only you're antagonizing your interlocutor, but you are not providing what your interlocutor expects from you. It isn't any of the points you brought up. It's in the line structure. Logic remains there. What you are probably trying to say is "you are ignoring the whole context that suggests Monaka is still weaker than Beerus". Then, I would totally agree with you.

[ryan s]

No idea what you mean by youtube comments

This..

It's not about I know better, every dragon ball youtube knows (*stuff*)

Being honest and saying someone is illogical are different things. Not only you're antagonizing your interlocutor, but you are not providing what your interlocutor expects from you. It isn't any of the points you brought up. It's in the line structure. Logic remains there. What you are probably trying to say is "you are ignoring the whole context that suggests Monaka is still weaker than Beerus". Then, I would totally agree with you.

yes that is what I meant but to me that kind of is being illogical atleast in my view, I don't mean dumb but ignoring all evidence and interpreting points in a way to give support to a theory that is pretty wild as it goes against evidence

If I have offend you I am sorry, yes I got frustrated but I did not think you were stupid far from it infact, I am sure you are much smarter then me in many aspects of dragon ball, I just felt the evidence was clear but that was more hitteo I was debating not you but I also don't think he is dumb infact he had good points that I thought about ie akiras interview, though the monoka part I thought was obvious

Maybe I did get slightly aggressive, I am sorry I will try and stop doing that

[VegettoEX]

I'm glad to see we're scaling things back a little bit. What would also be really helpful is if we could get a little bit more in the way of punctuation/capitalization/spacing . If you want people to take your theories and explanations seriously, they should be written to the best of your ability! We of course are lenient on our non-fluent-English-speaking fans, so always give us a heads-up if that's the case.

[ryan s]

I'm glad to see we're scaling things back a little bit. What would also be really helpful is if we could get a little bit more in the way of punctuation/capitalization/spacing . If you want people to take your theories and explanations seriously, they should be written to the best of your ability! We of course are lenient on our non-fluent-English-speaking fans, so always give us a heads-up if that's the case.

Yeah sorry about that, I have reasons but I can do better and will do better

[Hugo Boss]

If I have offend you I am sorry, yes I got frustrated but I did not think you were stupid far from it infact, I am sure you are much smarter then me in many aspects of dragon ball, I just felt the evidence was clear but that was more hitteo I was debating not you but I also don't think he is dumb infact he had good points that I thought about ie akiras interview, though the monoka part I thought was obvious

Maybe I did get slightly aggressive, I am sorry I will try and stop doing that

Okay, no problem. Don't get me wrong, I'm not any smarter than you. I'm just under the impression I have a bit more experience with words due to studies in my area, which has nothing to do with Dragon Ball at all. But that's not to inflate my ego, is to contribute and help as much as I can.

[ryan s]

If I have offend you I am sorry, yes I got frustrated but I did not think you were stupid far from it infact, I am sure you are much smarter then me in many aspects of dragon ball, I just felt the evidence was clear but that was more hitteo I was debating not you but I also don't think he is dumb infact he had good points that I thought about ie akiras interview, though the monoka part I thought was obvious

Maybe I did get slightly aggressive, I am sorry I will try and stop doing that

Okay, no problem. Don't get me wrong, I'm not any smarter than you. I'm just under the impression I have a bit more experience with words due to studies in my area, which has nothing to do with Dragon Ball at all. But that's not to inflate my ego, is to contribute and help as much as I can.

I understand you do obviously have better understanding with words, I can learn from my mistakes now and sorry for being aggressive and sorry if I have offended you, I should not have acted the way I did

[Borros]

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the Beerus' percentile scale is different from the scouter scale? We have seen this time and again. Need I remind you of Old Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power against pre-ultra divine water kid Goku and outclassing him? Where do you put that Goku given that Roshi had a power level of 139 and where do you put Old Piccolo Daimao, given Piccolo Jr at the Radditz saga had a power level of 408 and he was immensely more powerful than his father at the time? (Piccolo Jr Radditz saga>Piccolo Jr 23rd TB>>Young Piccolo Daimao>>Old Piccolo Daimao)

Because that linear scaling makes sense when you take into account the percentages established in-universe for the time frame. In Battle of Gods (the movie), Beerus establishes that he was using 70% of his strength when fighting against Ssj God Goku. On the 6, 10, 15 scale provided, 70% of 10 would result in 7, which fits with the overall advantage that Beerus seemingly had over Goku.

That is because you incorrectly assume that actual strength (e.g. how much weight you can lift or how hard you can punch or how much energy you can release per unit time) correlates with power levels linearly. Which is definitely NOT true even for the scouter power levels and you know this well.

Also for all we know 60% of Beerus is 60% of a power level (in whatever scale he is using). It is not necessarily 60% of Beerus' actual physical strength/speed/destructive capacity, etc. If you were to depict this as a graph, power levels would be the x axis. But the actual strength is the quantity in the y axis. The two are related with y=f(x) -- the function is exponential (or linear if you plot on a loglog graph).

Besides we know from the episode summaries that…[spoiler]Champa is about to kill all if his contestants and this includes Hit who apparently in the next episode keeps up with SSBKKx10 Goku.[/spoiler]

No, you cannot say that the relation between the strength, the resistance and the speed evolves in a exponential way according to unit of measure, or what we also call the strength of fight which we measure with the scouter.

You cannot say that, because the exponential function, as many of the other functions moreover, cannot give the result of a number which has a unit of measure. For example, he is absurd to calculate the exponential of a strength which expresses itself in Newton or kg.m²/s², or to calculate the exponential of a speed which expresses itself m/s there. In the same way, it is impossible to calculate an exponential one of Kilis (unit measure of Babidi) or units of scouter.

Dragon Ball is a manga of science fiction, not a thesis of mathematical physical appearance. It is thus not very probable that Akira Toriyama has to think of using this kind of function to write its manga, and even if he had really used an exponential function, and well he would be in the wrong because as I have him to you to explain to calculate the exponential of a value to associate with a unit of measure not ended in nothing concrete. It is absurd.

And I am going to add a small detail which I read today, it is that in the manga when Kaio explains to Goku that he did not have to exceed the double of his power (strength, speed and resistance) with Kaioken. And some pages after the fight against Vegeta, we see a compartment of the narrator which explains that Kaioken also multiplies the strength of fight by 2, thus if you have twice more unity or strength of fight, it also implies that your strength, your speed and your resistance increase twofold.

So, it seems obvious that the relation between the power of the characters and the units are linear and certainly not exponential.

[Speedster]

You cannot say that, because the exponential function, as many of the other functions moreover, cannot give the result of a number which has a unit of measure. For example, he is absurd to calculate the exponential of a strength which expresses itself in Newton or kg.m²/s², or to calculate the exponential of a speed which expresses itself m/s there. In the same way, it is impossible to calculate an exponential one of Kilis (unit measure of Babidi) or units of scouter.

So, it seems obvious that the relation between the power of the characters and the units are linear and certainly not exponential.

No. We can calculate exponential functions of quantities with units of measure as long as they these are multiplied or divided by a constant which also has units resulting to the cancelation of the units within the exponential. For example in the Arrhenius equation the variable in the exponent is the energy over the temperature (E/T), measured in J/K, but it is divided by the Boltzmann constant, k, (which has units J/K) so the units cancel out.