Vegetto "possibly" stronger than SSJ4?

[Steven Bloodriver]

To Lord Frieza, I doubt Hakaishin Beerus would survive the 10x Kamehameha and Dragon Fist combo Super Saiyan 4 Goku tried to kill Omega Shenron with, for only with regeneration, the Lord of Evil Dragons managed to live from that attack, and if Vegito had fought either of the two ultimate evils, he would have came up with a plan to win long before he would have lost.

[ahill1]

Goku had already said at that point that there was no knowing how powerful Cell could become. He was just looking for Karin to compare his strength to Karin's expectation for Cell's full power. If he only needed a comparison to Cell's current output, then he could've just stayed at the lookout and had Piccolo, Trunks, or Vegeta say how he compared.

Not to mention Karin's reply just confirmed Goku's assessments of him not being able to beat Cell.

Also, one chapter before that, Goku said as he is now he probably doesn't stand a chance. I see the "as I'm now" Goku's line implying he had knowledge of his own strength.

[Hitiro]

And again, Gohan would need to know how his power compares to Super Perfect Cell's to make the comparison to Boo.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here. I'm not on about Super Perfect Cell. I'm on about Perfect Cell. Gohan knows he can manage a person of Perfect Cell's level easily with his true power. He took Perfect Cell down in two blows. He gets worried when Boo's power goes up past Super Perfect Cell's level. Because he thinks someone of that level would be a difficult fight for his true power, again, by observation.

Which isn't relevant isn't relevant when it was already established that Gohan knew he was outclassed before Boo's power exceeded Vegeta and Goku's.

It is entirely relevant when he gets petrified at Boo's power. But him establishing he was outclassed by Majin Boo, prior to Boo's power exceeding Vegeta and Goku, would clearly be observable considering he was already struggling, and losing, against Dabura who they pegged as at Perfect Cell's level. Majin Boo being about Perfect Cell's level or slightly higher would mean that Gohan couldn't do anything as he was currently. Because he was fighting a losing battle against Dabura already. So another Perfect Cell level character would obviously be difficult unless he could use his true power where he could defeat a Perfect Cell level character in one or two blows.

What would Gohan see from Cell that would help him gauge his strength? Him knocking back Vegeta, which likely wasn't even his full power? I don't see how Gohan would somehow get a full evaluation of Cell's power from only seeing him smack Vegeta aside.

They can evaluate fighters on movement alone. They demonstrated this with Dabura. Goku even says that even if Dabura wasn't using his full power he would be around Perfect Cell's level. And I would imagine they could do the same for Cell back then. So I don't see why this is an issue.

Which is still irrelevant because Gohan knew BEFORE Boo's increase that he was outclassed. Why are we still discussing Boo's power after the increase?

Gohan still thought he might be able to manage something if he could access his true strength. He only knew he would actually be outclassed once Boo's power increased past Vegeta and Goku. But these two scenarios can be explained without him having the ability to sense his own Ki.

How does Goku complementing Vegeta's power by saying it's on par with his own equate to "I was completely oblivious to how your power compared to mine until right now." ? It's literally just Goku saying that it's impressive that Vegeta matched his strength despite his intense training in the afterlife.

Because if he knew it was equal to his own from the start he would have said so instead of saying "Looks like this will take longer than I thought." Why does the line have to appear half-way through the fight if he had already checked out Vegeta's Ki before fighting him?

Goku had already said at that point that there was no knowing how powerful Cell could become. He was just looking for Karin to compare his strength to Karin's expectation for Cell's full power. If he only needed a comparison to Cell's current output, then he could've just stayed at the lookout and had Piccolo, Trunks, or Vegeta say how he compared.

He could have gotten anyone's opinion on the matter. Even his own opinion would have been enough if he could sense his own Ki. Yet he had to still get someone else's opinion.

It's never explicitly stated, but it'd be incredibly dumb if it weren't the case. It'd be like saying you can't hear yourself when you talk, or that you can't feel your own skin, or that you can't smell your own body. There are plenty of things in the story that aren't blatantly stated but obviously inferable based on common sense. I'd honestly rather believe that a character can just feel their own Ki rather than compare someone else's Ki to someone else's Ki to someone else's movements to their own whatever. It just seems convoluted that way.

Why would it be like that? There are few senses of the body which don't take yourself into account or barely. For instance in most cases you can't smell yourself because your body is accustomed to it despite you making it sound like you can it is often not the case. If you try licking yourself you will notice you don't really taste of anything unless you've been sweating in which case it is going to taste salty or possibly if you're wearing something. And you can't actually see your whole body with your sight either. And technically when you hear yourself speak you don't actually sound like that either. So it isn't an accurate representation of your voice. And if you would rather believe that they can sense their own Ki then I guess you would rather say that the reason the characters think they can take someone despite that other person being stronger is plot induced stupidity? It would make much more sense if they couldn't sense their own Ki for that very point. And I personally don't see it as convoluted as more of a, "it's hard to gauge your own strength against others" kind of thing. Which is why characters like Goku and Cell always want to fight the best to test their own strength.

I don't keep up on new material, but couldn't Goku also not sense Beers even after becoming a SSG?

That's why I said that if he didn't gain the ability to sense God Ki then he would have surely noticed his own Ki vanish because he would not be able to sense his own God Ki. I've always believed that at the time he couldn't sense God Ki. So yeah, if he couldn't sense God Ki he would not be able to sense himself when he gained God Ki if he was still stuck with regular Ki sensing. Therefore it would confirm to him he had God Ki.

It could really just be explained as self-overestimation/arrogance. For example, Vegeta can think that he's stronger than someone, not bother comparing his Ki due to just thinking he'd be stronger, and then realize he's not after getting owned.

That would be fair enough if it was very few instances and only localised to certain characters but every character has at least done it once. Even Goku who's never really been arrogant has demonstrated it. The only time I've seen him truly arrogant is when he was fighting Popo actually. I find it hard to believe that so many characters would be stupid throughout the franchise and on a regular basis. And I find it hard to believe in all of these instances across the story the fighter chose not to compare their Ki levels to their opponents. In fact, if they had an understanding for what their Ki level was then they wouldn't really need to compare because they would have an understanding that X is more than Y. Just like it takes no effort for us to determine that 100 is greater than 50. So any number thrown at that person would be fairly calculated straight away.

Anywho, this is my last reply, as I doubt either of us are going to change our view. I'd rather just say we disagree than go back and forth for no reason. If you're wondering why I didn't respond to your point about Dabra compared to Cell...well that's because I believe Gohan was a Super Saiyan, making Dabra far weaker than Cell. But that would just spark another debate, which I am also not looking for. So, there's that.

I would disagree with this because Gohan proved that he could battle Cell as a SSJ merely by knocking him on his ass while he was using his full speed and Gohan was highly unmotivated. If he were motivated I think that Gohan could have had a decent fight against Perfect Cell.

Not to mention Karin's reply just confirmed Goku's assessments of him not being able to beat Cell.

Also, one chapter before that, Goku said as he is now he probably doesn't stand a chance. I see the "as I'm now" Goku's line implying he had knowledge of his own strength.

To be fair Goku had spent a year fighting against Gohan. So he is going to have a fair grasp on his strength here just by using Gohan as a measuring stick.

[apex_pretador]

It's possible. I don't know if I put the GT characters on such a tier like others do, to be honest. Was it that Goku said that Rild was as powerful as Majin Boo? So I'd say that maybe Super Saiyan 1 Goku is as powerful as Super Saiyan 3 Goku was back against Boo? I never really put too much thought into the power scaling. I just feel like people really think that they're super overpowered in GT. I'd say that Goku is definitely stronger than he was in Z, but I never got the sense that anyone else really was. And I never would say that Goku is as powerful as Vegetto in Z. So whatever. I think it's possible that Vegetto is more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

So much this I completely agree with.

Base goku GT is in the range of SS2 goku from Z, seeing how he easily beat cell and freeza, and beat a SS1 gohan even stronger than buu arc SS1 gohan.

IMO:

Base GT Goku > SS2 Goku BoG = SS1 Baby gohan > M vegeta = Piccolo (super 17 arc) = Base GT vegeta > Kid gohan > SPC > SS2 Buu arc gohan = GT Cell = GT Freeza > SS1 Baby goten >= Base GT Gohan >= Piccolo (baby arc)

For higher levels, it goes like:

Hypothetical FP SS Vegetto (buu) >= SS4 Goku = ozaru Goku = Ozaru Baby > Suppressed SS Vegetto > SBV 2 > Hypothetical base gokuhan (buu arc) > SBV1 > Buuhan > Buutenks > GT SS3 Goku > Majuub > SS3 Gotenks > Super buu > GT SS Goku > Uub (pre fusion) > Kid buu FP > SS Gotenks > fat-buu

[Rayodball]

It's true that Toriyama-sensei said in the Daizenshuu that Vegetto is more powerful than SSJ4 Gogeta?

https://scontent.fgdl4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=594BC0AA

Thanks!!

[Cetra]

It's true that Toriyama-sensei said in the Daizenshuu that Vegetto is more powerful than SSJ4 Gogeta?

https://scontent.fgdl4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=594BC0AA

Thanks!!

I have never even heard of such a thing and normally when something like this appeared it is such an obvious false info.

[Saturnine]

To Lord Frieza, I doubt Hakaishin Beerus would survive the 10x Kamehameha and Dragon Fist combo Super Saiyan 4 Goku tried to kill Omega Shenron with, for only with regeneration, the Lord of Evil Dragons managed to live from that attack, and if Vegito had fought either of the two ultimate evils, he would have came up with a plan to win long before he would have lost.

Yeah let's see who should logically survive such an attack - a dragon made from the negative energy of the smallest Dragonballs in existence, or the God of Destruction of a universe?

Hell, the Shadow Dragons shouldn't be stronger than like, Nappa

[TheMikado]

Super Vegito from the Buu saga being anywhere near as strong as SSJ4 Goku is pretty much impossible.
Super Bebi Vegeta 1 had surpassed Super Vegito, he then powered up to Super Bebi Vegeta 2 and then powered up even further and became Golden Oozaru Bebi yet SSJ4 Goku could still over power him.

so the chain should go like this-

SSJ4 Goku > Golden Oozaru Bebi > SSJ3 Vegito > Super Bebi Vegeta 2 > SSJ2 Vegito =(or)> Super Bebi Vegeta 1 > SSJ Vegito > Base Vegito.

so....SSJ4 Goku = Super Vegito? Nah get that garbage out of here.

I was just referring to the quote in the Dragonbook saying that Vegetto is "perhaps" stronger than SSJ4.

I think its possible its referencing the transformation rather than the characters, meaning if the bases are the same the scaling could possibly go in Vegetto's favor.

[RehBeh]

It's possible it was referencing a hypothetical Vegetto from GT. So SSJ Vegetto(GT)>SSJ4 Goku(GT).
This is backed by both Goku's, Bebi's and Elder Kaioshin's statements of Bebi Vegeta being the strongest thing that ever existed.(Remeber that Goku knows how strong Vegetto is and is able to estimate a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, yet he claims that Bebi is the stongest being)

[Grimlock]

It's true that Toriyama-sensei said in the Daizenshuu that Vegetto is more powerful than SSJ4 Gogeta?

Obviously not. Toriyama's relationship with the guides is that of supervise, nothing more than that. Everything else is speculation and/or false claims by fanboys.

[Cipher]

For what it's worth, just watching the show, I never had any trouble believing that Vegetto would be stronger than Super Saiyan 4.

But I'm also one of those crazy people who doesn't think the intent was to codify Goku as being as strong as Boo in his base form, so ymmv.

[buutenks]

Goku says he could have defeated Fat Buu if he wanted to. Meaning Goku kne w how strong his ssj3 ki was.

Also Goku was dead sure he'd mop the floor with the ginyu force based on him sensing their PL.(Except Ginyu).

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Veggeto being stronger than Ssj4 Goku is impossible. Base GT Goku is stronger than Majin Buu so is Veggeto. Super Veggeto only gotten 50× stronger because ssj multiplier. While Goku has multiple forms increasing his power far more than Veggeto's.

Even then Bebi is way stronger than Veggeto. Veggeto's base is arguably weaker than Buuhan which means he couldn't be a Godly amount stronger than Buuhan just enough to toy with him and not waste much energy.

Prime Example

Vegeta 24,000

Dodoria 21,000 and Cui 18,000

Yet Vegeta easily beated them.

[Big Green The Yoshi]

Elder Kai said SSJ4 Goku was the most powerful fighter he ever saw in the Japanese sub. There's no way this is true.

[MisteryOne]

Veggeto being stronger than Ssj4 Goku is impossible. Base GT Goku is stronger than Majin Buu so is Veggeto. Super Veggeto only gotten 50× stronger because ssj multiplier. While Goku has multiple forms increasing his power far more than Veggeto's.

Even then Bebi is way stronger than Veggeto. Veggeto's base is arguably weaker than Buuhan which means he couldn't be a Godly amount stronger than Buuhan just enough to toy with him and not waste much energy.

Prime Example

Vegeta 24,000

Dodoria 21,000 and Cui 18,000

Yet Vegeta easily beated them.

Base Goku being Boo tier is pure headcanon of the fandom trough. Even in EoZ, Uub never showed to be able to use Kid Buu's full strengh, specially in the original manga where it was a extremely short fight. Base Goku is nowhere near Base Vegetto except in Super anime version, if anything.

Its true however that it was stated than Super Baby was the strongest fighter they never felt, so if anything this could apply to a hypothetical GT Vegetto.

[Darkprince410]

Veggeto being stronger than Ssj4 Goku is impossible. Base GT Goku is stronger than Majin Buu so is Veggeto. Super Veggeto only gotten 50× stronger because ssj multiplier. While Goku has multiple forms increasing his power far more than Veggeto's.

Except there's no concrete evidence to that. Goku's line regarding Rild being stronger than Buu (which I'm assuming you're basing that off of) can just as readily be meaning Mr. Buu, thus Goku's base being stronger than Rild's form at the time means he's somewhere around his Z-era Ssj3 strength.

Elder Kai said SSJ4 Goku was the most powerful fighter he ever saw in the Japanese sub. There's no way this is true.

I don't recall any such line being mentioned by him, and even if so, Vegetto wasn't putting out his full power against Buu because he wasn't trying to kill him, thus Rou Kaioushin would only be comparing that to Vegetto's suppressed power.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Veggeto being stronger than Ssj4 Goku is impossible. Base GT Goku is stronger than Majin Buu so is Veggeto. Super Veggeto only gotten 50× stronger because ssj multiplier. While Goku has multiple forms increasing his power far more than Veggeto's.

Even then Bebi is way stronger than Veggeto. Veggeto's base is arguably weaker than Buuhan which means he couldn't be a Godly amount stronger than Buuhan just enough to toy with him and not waste much energy.

Prime Example

Vegeta 24,000

Dodoria 21,000 and Cui 18,000

Yet Vegeta easily beated them.

Base Goku being Boo tier is pure headcanon of the fandom trough. Even in EoZ, Uub never showed to be able to use Kid Buu's full strengh, specially in the original manga where it was a extremely short fight. Base Goku is nowhere near Base Vegetto except in Super anime version, if anything.

Its true however that it was stated than Super Baby was the strongest fighter they never felt, so if anything this could apply to a hypothetical GT Vegetto.

In GT he stated Rildo was stronger than Majin Buu and Goku fought him in base form as a kid for a little bit.

It is true about Uub though i doubt he could use Kid Buu's full power since he couldn't even unlock it until he got angry.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Veggeto being stronger than Ssj4 Goku is impossible. Base GT Goku is stronger than Majin Buu so is Veggeto. Super Veggeto only gotten 50× stronger because ssj multiplier. While Goku has multiple forms increasing his power far more than Veggeto's.

Except there's no concrete evidence to that. Goku's line regarding Rild being stronger than Buu (which I'm assuming you're basing that off of) can just as readily be meaning Mr. Buu, thus Goku's base being stronger than Rild's form at the time means he's somewhere around his Z-era Ssj3 strength.

Why would he talk about Mr Buu though? They had a very tough time beating the guy and Goku is going to say that he is stronger than the weakest form of Majin Buu? I honestly don't think Goku would of brought the matter up if he was weaker than the more powerful forms than Majin Buu. Also do you agree or not if Goku's base is Z ssj3 tier?

[ekrolo2]

GT is a sequel to the Z anime and in that Kid Boo IS the strongest Boo, and that's the Boo Goku predominately fights. So yeah, Rild is stronger than the strongest Boo Goku knows, and in this continuity, it's Kid Boo.

This means that Goku's Base form is probably around the same strength if not stronger than the Super Vegetto of the anime who fought Boohan.

[Gog]

GT is a sequel to the Z anime and in that Kid Boo IS the strongest Boo, and that's the Boo Goku predominately fights. So yeah, Rild is stronger than the strongest Boo Goku knows, and in this continuity, it's Kid Boo.

There's one problem with that statement Kid Buu's was always refereed to as Pure Buu, not majin Buu. Fat Buu is always referred to as Majin Buu, common misconception.

This means that Goku's Base form is probably around the same strength if not stronger than the Super Vegetto of the anime who fought Boohan.

No close unfortunately, as Majin Buu is not used to refer to Kid Buu, but Fat Buu.