Vegetto "possibly" stronger than SSJ4?

[Analytic]

For example, when Piccolo said he wasn't even using half his power against Goku we could interpret that to mean he was 10x stronger, but if he had such an advantage he would surely let us know.

Good point. Statements like Piccolo Daimao's and Future C17's could be construed to mean they were only using 1/50th of their power as well, but I doubt anyone would advocate for that as it's unnecessary and doesn't seem implied. Rild's statement seems like a similar case.

[LowRyder2005]

Regarding Rilldo: do note he gives trouble to an untransformed Gohan. Whether you want to believe it was an "Ultimate" Gohan who was stronger than his Buu saga self - I suppose so, given the incredulity - or a regular "base Gohan" is a personal stance. Me, I don't think Gohan was Ultimate at any point during GT for the simple fact that his Bebi-empowered form (on an Ultimate base, to boot?) Super Saiyan form can't even keep up with Base Goku. Which would be kind of a big stretch to me; Base Goku would end up, like, more than 50 times (if not hundreds?) of times stronger than Ultimate Gohan from Z.

@DarkPrince: In front of questionable syntax, insults and personal attacks, strings of factoids presented as pseudo-logic and generally aggressive demeanor (literally a "pot meet kettle" scenario, given the accusations that were moved against you) your ability to keep your cool, civilness and ability to produce sound arguments has been remarkable. Chapeau.

[Tectorman]

For what it's worth, just watching the show, I never had any trouble believing that Vegetto would be stronger than Super Saiyan 4.

But I'm also one of those crazy people who doesn't think the intent was to codify Goku as being as strong as Boo in his base form, so ymmv.

Same here. I found that there was a much better argument for Goku's SSJ, not his Base, being as strong as Buu.

We know Goku was able to fight evenly with General Rildo in Base. We know he also fought Metal Rildo evenly as a SSJ. We then have two significant benchmarks for power. The first is Goku characterizing Rildo's power as "stronger than Buu (some form of Buu)". The second is, in the original dialogue (and yes, the dub is different), Goku characterizing Metal Rildo's improvement as only "a little bit stronger than he'd thought".

So we have two choices with that. We're either characterizing Goku's SSJ increase as also "only a little bit stronger", which means no more x50 multiplier. Or something else is going on.

I think it's the something else. If Metal Rildo is "a little bit stronger than 'stronger than (some form of Buu)'", and SSJ Goku can fight evenly with that, then SSJ Goku must likewise be slightly above Buu (again, whichever Buu he meant).

But isn't that problematic if he was fighting evenly in Base with a being exhibiting a Ki stronger than Buu? Not necessarily, as long as you allow a discrepancy between how much power General Rildo exhibits (stronger than Buu) and how much he can actually use (fifty times less).

Why would there ever be a discrepancy? Isn't that just inventing things wholesale to fit a theory? Again, not necessarily. Goku later notes how he had already figured out how Rildo had control over the planet's metal. Well, if he had noticed that Rildo was fighting with drastically less power than he appeared to have, then he'd be wondering what was going on. He'd go from just sensing how powerful Rildo was to noticing the specific characteristics of Rildo's power, such as how it appeared to be tied to the planet's metal. Which is exactly what he later says.

Plus, there's the fact that he had any expectation with regards to Rildo's full power for Rildo's power-up to be a little bit stronger than to begin with.

"I've never met you before nor seen any of your species and you're using a power-up I've never before encountered in my life. Nevertheless, I'm going to go ahead and expect you to end up approximate to my own SSJ for some inexplicable reason. What? You're slightly stronger? Inconceivable."

For Goku to expect Rildo's transformed state to be at any level, he must be operating on some clue before the actual reveal. Which further points towards General Rildo exhibiting "greater than Buu" power while not actually using it.

...

As far as Z Vegetto goes, I've got him the same as GT SSJ Goku, as both are "some undefined amount above one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) forms of Buu", manga and anime (though I do place little importance on the anime having Kid Buu be the strongest, even when talking about GT).

[Cipher]

My explanation is even simpler: Goku and Rilld both screw around a lot and Goku ultimately loses anyway (but yes; I agree with the central premise of Goku's "stronger than Boo" line not referring to the abilities Rilld displays right away; for that matter, Pan also gets in a kick against him that would have hyper-literal power-debaters putting her into some Gotenks tier if we go down that route). Toei doesn't much care about portraying specific power relationships, so all the other brief instances of base Goku doing crazy things are just whatever; like who, cares if he doesn't explode in a brief skirmish against Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten (when they're possessed and waiting for Baby) or can hang in against Freeza and Cell in a nonsense fight?

What's the other one that comes up? The opening fight against Oob? Also whatever.

[TheUltimateNinja]

My explanation is even simpler: Goku and Rilld both screw around a lot and Goku ultimately loses anyway (but yes; I agree with the central premise of Goku's "stronger than Boo" line not referring to the abilities Rilld displays right away; for that matter, Pan also gets in a kick against him that would have hyper-literal power-debaters putting her into some Gotenks tier if we go down that route). Toei doesn't much care about portraying specific power relationships, so all the other brief instances of base Goku doing crazy things are just whatever; like who, cares if he doesn't explode in a brief skirmish against Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten (when they're possessed and waiting for Baby) or can hang in against Freeza and Cell in a nonsense fight?

What's the other one that comes up? The opening fight against Oob? Also whatever.

If we were to take Toei's nonsense depiction of power seriously, Base Gohan would be as strong as SSJ Broly.

[Gog]

My explanation is even simpler: Goku and Rilld both screw around a lot and Goku ultimately loses anyway (but yes; I agree with the central premise of Goku's "stronger than Boo" line not referring to the abilities Rilld displays right away; for that matter, Pan also gets in a kick against him that would have hyper-literal power-debaters putting her into some Gotenks tier if we go down that route). Toei doesn't much care about portraying specific power relationships, so all the other brief instances of base Goku doing crazy things are just whatever; like who, cares if he doesn't explode in a brief skirmish against Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten (when they're possessed and waiting for Baby) or can hang in against Freeza and Cell in a nonsense fight?

What's the other one that comes up? The opening fight against Oob? Also whatever.

If we were to take Toei's nonsense depiction of power seriously, Base Gohan would be as strong as SSJ Broly.

Wait, where was Goku fighting SSJ Broly?

[TheUltimateNinja]

My explanation is even simpler: Goku and Rilld both screw around a lot and Goku ultimately loses anyway (but yes; I agree with the central premise of Goku's "stronger than Boo" line not referring to the abilities Rilld displays right away; for that matter, Pan also gets in a kick against him that would have hyper-literal power-debaters putting her into some Gotenks tier if we go down that route). Toei doesn't much care about portraying specific power relationships, so all the other brief instances of base Goku doing crazy things are just whatever; like who, cares if he doesn't explode in a brief skirmish against Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten (when they're possessed and waiting for Baby) or can hang in against Freeza and Cell in a nonsense fight?

What's the other one that comes up? The opening fight against Oob? Also whatever.

If we were to take Toei's nonsense depiction of power seriously, Base Gohan would be as strong as SSJ Broly.

Wait, where was Goku fighting SSJ Broly?

Gohan, not Goku. And he fights him in Movie 10 and they're almost even. Once Broly goes LSSJ Gohan gets thrashed even as a Super Saiyan, so either LSSJ is more than 50x stronger than SSJ or SSJ's boost has gotten much smaller.

[Gog]

If we were to take Toei's nonsense depiction of power seriously, Base Gohan would be as strong as SSJ Broly.

Wait, where was Goku fighting SSJ Broly?

Gohan, not Goku. And he fights him in Movie 10 and they're almost even. Once Broly goes LSSJ Gohan gets thrashed even as a Super Saiyan, so either LSSJ is more than 50x stronger than SSJ or SSJ's boost has gotten much smaller.

Well I'd imagine that either A. Broly's Super Saiyan only doubles his power while Legendary Super Saiyan times it by fifty. Or Broly is the greatest of weaklings and his strength is only dependent on the Legendary Super Saiyan form.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Wait, where was Goku fighting SSJ Broly?

Gohan, not Goku. And he fights him in Movie 10 and they're almost even. Once Broly goes LSSJ Gohan gets thrashed even as a Super Saiyan, so either LSSJ is more than 50x stronger than SSJ or SSJ's boost has gotten much smaller.

Well I'd imagine that either A. Broly's Super Saiyan only doubles his power while Legendary Super Saiyan times it by fifty. Or Broly is the greatest of weaklings and his strength is only dependent on the Legendary Super Saiyan form.

In movie 8 he tanked Vegeta's kick without even flinching as a normal Super Saiyan, so what the Broly movies tell us is Base Gohan = SSJ Broly > SSJ Vegeta

[Gog]

Gohan, not Goku. And he fights him in Movie 10 and they're almost even. Once Broly goes LSSJ Gohan gets thrashed even as a Super Saiyan, so either LSSJ is more than 50x stronger than SSJ or SSJ's boost has gotten much smaller.

Well I'd imagine that either A. Broly's Super Saiyan only doubles his power while Legendary Super Saiyan times it by fifty. Or Broly is the greatest of weaklings and his strength is only dependent on the Legendary Super Saiyan form.

In movie 8 he tanked Vegeta's kick without even flinching as a normal Super Saiyan, so what the Broly movies tell us is Base Gohan = SSJ Broly > SSJ Vegeta

*Starts sweating* So is Gohan's Super Saiyan multiplier smaller? Because, uh if not then that makes no sense in anyway, shape or form.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Well I'd imagine that either A. Broly's Super Saiyan only doubles his power while Legendary Super Saiyan times it by fifty. Or Broly is the greatest of weaklings and his strength is only dependent on the Legendary Super Saiyan form.

In movie 8 he tanked Vegeta's kick without even flinching as a normal Super Saiyan, so what the Broly movies tell us is Base Gohan = SSJ Broly > SSJ Vegeta

*Starts sweating* So is Gohan's Super Saiyan multiplier smaller? Because, uh if not then that makes no sense in anyway, shape or form.

Everyone's SSJ multiplier is smaller with Toei. In Movie 8 Base Goku is able to keep up with and damage the same SSJ Broly who didn't give a fuck about Vegeta's kick, so Base Goku > SSJ Vegeta.

[München X Cisf]

Super Vegetto? yeah maybe... but base Vegetto is not even close of Goku SSJ4. According with the narrator he fought evenly matched against Buuhan.

DBZ (Episode 270)
Narrator: "And just as their two powers (Buuhan and Base Vegetto) seemed evenly matched,"

But SSJ4 Goku humiliate Baby Vegeta in his second strongest form, and before when baby reach his first strongest form Goku said Baby has the biggest ki he ever felt in his life.



Gt perfect files also confirm that

Shape-Shifting!! The History of Baby’s Transformations!!
Baby, THE STRONGEST OF ENEMIES, powered up by absorbing the energy of other life-forms and transforming again and again…Here’s all about that!!

I think that´s the scale of power.

Super Vegetto > SSJ4 Goku (before episode 58) > Baby Vegeta 2nd strongest form > Baby Vegeta 1st strongest form > Buuhan = Base Vegetto.

[Hugo Boss]

Shouldn't DBGT itself give us a clear answer that Vegetto was inferior to SSJ4?

I don't know if it should, but the enemies didn't seem to be that far beyond Boo, so giving that Vegetto didn't need nowhere near his full power to beat him, it's comprehensible that GT related-contents went that route.

[München X Cisf]

Super Vegetto? yeah maybe... but base Vegetto is not even close of Goku SSJ4. According with the narrator he fought evenly matched against Buuhan.

DBZ (Episode 270)
Narrator: "And just as their two powers (Buuhan and Base Vegetto) seemed evenly matched,"

In change SSJ4 Goku humiliates Baby Vegeta in his second strongest form, and before when Baby reach his first strongest form, Goku said Baby has the biggest ki he ever felt in his life.



Gt perfect files also confirm that

Shape-Shifting!! The History of Baby’s Transformations!!
Baby, THE STRONGEST OF ENEMIES, powered up by absorbing the energy of other life-forms and transforming again and again…Here’s all about that!!

I think that´s the scale of power.

Super Vegetto > SSJ4 Goku (before episode 58) > Baby Vegeta 2nd strongest form > Baby Vegeta 1st strongest form > Buuhan = Base Vegetto.

[Nazi Cola]

As far as I'm concerned, what the actual show says trumps what any secondary material says. And to me, what the show says is that Super Vegeta-Baby 1 has surpassed the previous strongest known power, which was Super Saiyan Vegetto...regardless of whether Vegetto was suppressed against Boo or not. The secondary excerpt can say whatever it wants, but when it's as ambiguous as that, it doesn't deserve my attention.

[Tectorman]

As far as I'm concerned, what the actual show says trumps what any secondary material says. And to me, what the show says is that Super Vegeta-Baby 1 has surpassed the previous strongest known power, which was Super Saiyan Vegetto...regardless of whether Vegetto was suppressed against Boo or not. The secondary excerpt can say whatever it wants, but when it's as ambiguous as that, it doesn't deserve my attention.

The issue with Goku's line regarding Baby-Vegeta is that it is exactly the same as his line regarding Janemba. In both cases, he's talking about someone else's strength. In both cases, he describes it using some variation of "the strongest ever". And both cases are Toei writing that dialogue and establishing the person Goku's talking about as more powerful than anyone.

Except, in movie 12, Goku is still able to contend with Janemba in Base and then curb-stomp him at SSJ3. That throws a wrinkle in Goku's Toei-written statement of Janemba being the strongest, because how can it be absolutely true if Goku can do what he does? And if that statement cannot be taken at face-value, then it is plainly unfair to not apply the same wrinkle to a statement with the same circumstances.

So if the statement itself is insufficient, and if it's not otherwise confirmed on-screen (and it wasn't, as there was never a point where we saw either Buu-Saga SSJ Vegetto or a character directly stated to be as strong as him to compare to Baby-Vegeta), then, I feel, secondary exerpts get to be considered with additional weight.

[Nazi Cola]

As far as I'm concerned, what the actual show says trumps what any secondary material says. And to me, what the show says is that Super Vegeta-Baby 1 has surpassed the previous strongest known power, which was Super Saiyan Vegetto...regardless of whether Vegetto was suppressed against Boo or not. The secondary excerpt can say whatever it wants, but when it's as ambiguous as that, it doesn't deserve my attention.

The issue with Goku's line regarding Baby-Vegeta is that it is exactly the same as his line regarding Janemba. In both cases, he's talking about someone else's strength. In both cases, he describes it using some variation of "the strongest ever". And both cases are Toei writing that dialogue and establishing the person Goku's talking about as more powerful than anyone.

Except, in movie 12, Goku is still able to contend with Janemba in Base and then curb-stomp him at SSJ3. That throws a wrinkle in Goku's Toei-written statement of Janemba being the strongest, because how can it be absolutely true if Goku can do what he does? And if that statement cannot be taken at face-value, then it is plainly unfair to not apply the same wrinkle to a statement with the same circumstances.

So if the statement itself is insufficient, and if it's not otherwise confirmed on-screen (and it wasn't, as there was never a point where we saw either Buu-Saga SSJ Vegetto or a character directly stated to be as strong as him to compare to Baby-Vegeta), then, I feel, secondary exerpts get to be considered with additional weight.

You're welcome to that line of reasoning. I don't necessarily agree since Goku gave his compliment of Janemba and then proceeded to whoop the fat blob easily, quite obviously meaning he wasn't taking into consideration himself for that comparison. The same issue doesn't present itself for Baby.

[Tectorman]

As far as I'm concerned, what the actual show says trumps what any secondary material says. And to me, what the show says is that Super Vegeta-Baby 1 has surpassed the previous strongest known power, which was Super Saiyan Vegetto...regardless of whether Vegetto was suppressed against Boo or not. The secondary excerpt can say whatever it wants, but when it's as ambiguous as that, it doesn't deserve my attention.

The issue with Goku's line regarding Baby-Vegeta is that it is exactly the same as his line regarding Janemba. In both cases, he's talking about someone else's strength. In both cases, he describes it using some variation of "the strongest ever". And both cases are Toei writing that dialogue and establishing the person Goku's talking about as more powerful than anyone.

Except, in movie 12, Goku is still able to contend with Janemba in Base and then curb-stomp him at SSJ3. That throws a wrinkle in Goku's Toei-written statement of Janemba being the strongest, because how can it be absolutely true if Goku can do what he does? And if that statement cannot be taken at face-value, then it is plainly unfair to not apply the same wrinkle to a statement with the same circumstances.

So if the statement itself is insufficient, and if it's not otherwise confirmed on-screen (and it wasn't, as there was never a point where we saw either Buu-Saga SSJ Vegetto or a character directly stated to be as strong as him to compare to Baby-Vegeta), then, I feel, secondary exerpts get to be considered with additional weight.

You're welcome to that line of reasoning. I don't necessarily agree since Goku gave his compliment of Janemba and then proceeded to whoop the fat blob easily, quite obviously meaning he wasn't taking into consideration himself for that comparison. The same issue doesn't present itself for Baby.

Sure it does. Vegetto did not exist when Goku was talking about Baby-Vegeta. More than that, Vegeta being possessed meant there was no possibility of Vegetto existing in the future to even remotely be in consideration. Different reason, but exactly the same issue.

[München X Cisf]

I remember in DBGT (I believe it was against Bebi??) that Kaioshin said merging wouldn't be enough to take him down. But in the DBGT animanga it says :

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!


Shouldn't DBGT itself give us a clear answer that Vegetto was inferior to SSJ4?

Maybe Super Vegetto can defeat SSJ4 Goku, but Vegetto in his base form has no chance, he is not even close of SSJ4 Goku's level in DBGT.

Base Vegeto = Buuhan (DBZ: Chapter 270)

The battle between Majin Boo and Vegetto reached an extreme in intensity! Offensive and defensive sides continued to switch and back forth, and just as their powers seemed evenly matched, from within an aura of light appeared Super Vegetto!

Super Baby 1 was the strongest villain including DBZ and GT.

Episode 29
Time: around 15m55s
Context: After Vegeta claims to be the greatest power
Goku: "It's true! I've never felt a Ki as awesome as this! This really may turn out to be the last sight I take with me into the next world..."

SSJ4 Goku was far away more powerful than Super Baby 2.

Episode 35
Time: 13m35s
Context: After Baby's Revenge Death Ball does nothing to Goku
Baby: "I-impossible! I could tell it got you! I'm sure I must have hit you!"
Goku: "You ain't able to beat me."
Baby: "W-what?!"
Goku: "There's been too much difference placed between our levels of power."

SSJ4 Goku > Super Baby 2 > Super Baby 1 > Buuhan = Base Vegetto.

[p-hyvo]

it coluld be, dragon ball gt perfect files says that.
we know that potara fusion has a multiplier of axb, so ,base buu saga vegeth was 8'850'000'000'000 for me, because Goku is stated to bee 3'000'000 and for me vegeta is 2'950'000.
so, that makes ssj vegeth battle power 442'500'000'000'000
then, fort me ssj 4 Goku from evil dragons saga has a power level of 250'000'000'000'000 more or less, that makes vegeth almost 2 times stronger