Calculating the Formula for Fusion

[shadowfox87]

Actually, it is stated that Potara produce greater results and is just outright superior in comparison to the Fusion Dance in both the manga and the guidebooks.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: "Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! Put the other one on Gohan's ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion."
Goku: "Huh! Re-really!?"
Elder Kaioshin: "Of course. And what's more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago."

Daizenshuu #7 Potara entry:

To use them, the two people who will merge simply have to each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu's body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people's bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.

That's true and you're right. This was in page 163 of the Daizenshuu. However, it is unknown if Old Kai meant that Potara is easier and more efficient because you didn't need to dance or match power levels, such that you always get an optimal fusion. Or it could mean that Potara does indeed result in a higher power compared to Fusion Dance even if Fusion Dance is performed perfectly with equal power levels.

[Grimlock]

And what does "greater effect" mean in reality? Because that alone sure has a lot of interpretations.

EDIT: Oh, so Daizenshuu actually says that one is more powerful than other. Because if we go solely by the manga, that doesn't contribute at all.

[Lord Beerus]

Actually, it is stated that Potara produce greater results and is just outright superior in comparison to the Fusion Dance in both the manga and the guidebooks.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: "Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! Put the other one on Gohan's ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion."
Goku: "Huh! Re-really!?"
Elder Kaioshin: "Of course. And what's more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago."

Daizenshuu #7 Potara entry:

To use them, the two people who will merge simply have to each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu's body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people's bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.

That's true and you're right. This was in page 163 of the Daizenshuu. However, it is unknown if Old Kai meant that Potara is easier and more efficient because you didn't need to dance or match power levels, such that you always get an optimal fusion. Or it could mean that Potara does indeed result in a higher power compared to Fusion Dance even if Fusion Dance is performed perfectly with equal power levels.

Hell, it's even strongly implied that the general gap in strength between Potara and the Fusion Dance is at the very least equal to that of the SSJ multiplier (x50):

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: "If you're going to become a Super Saiyan, it's better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you'll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara's power is just that amazing!"

And that's even before the "rival boost" in strength that Vegetto gained as a result of Goku and Vegeta merging together.

And what does "greater effect" mean in reality? Because that alone sure has a lot of interpretations.

EDIT: Oh, so Daizenshuu actually says that one is more powerful than other. Because if we go solely by the manga, that doesn't contribute at all.

There really isn't any other way you can twist what Elder Kaioshin means when he states the Potara has a greater effect that the Fusion Dance, other than Potara is simply stronger. I mean, he later comments that the Potara doesn't have the same weakness of the Fusion Dance in that fusion doesn't expire and lasts forever:

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"

So it's very likely that when Elder Kaioshin was stating that the Potara had a greater effect than that of the Fusion Dance, he was obviously referring to the strength, and making the distinction that the Potara produced a stronger fused warrior in general in comparison to the Fusion Dance.

[LowRyder2005]

Ehr... Arguing that the Potara Fusion would be "A + B" would lead to the conclusion that Goku and Vegeta (half of Vegito's power) could have most likely defeated regular Super Buu (probably less than half the power of Gohan-Buu) by going Super Saiyan. That's kinda impossible.

Metamoran Fusion is hinted to be more than the sum of its parts the moment it's introduced. If you add GT databooks into the equation definitely more than ten times. I mean, Omega Shenron is reported there to be about ten times stronger than regular Syn and Gogeta is leagues above him. But even in DBZ databooks, Gotenks is "many tens of times" stronger than Goten and Trunks (according to Son Goku Densetsu).
Potara is vastly stronger than that through regular power-scaling, although we can't exactly pinpoint how much.

And those V-Jumps were literally numbers made on the spot without too much thought, they hold the same weight of movie posters giving Commander Red 100 BPs. They're not intended to be particularly reliable or perfectly reflect the original story.

Movies are not canon. I stated that in the first post. However, the V-Jump is the only time where Gogeta was given a power level which was 2.5 billion. I already calculated that SSJ Goku would be 1.3 billion while SSJ Vegeta is 1.2 billion. Hence, they would have absolutely NO chance of beating Ultimate Buu (Mystic Gohan+Goten+Trunks+Piccolo). If it was multiplication, then there is no way to get 2.5 billion for Gogeta's power level. I'm using the guidebooks on Kanzenshuu for DB/DBZ/DBS. I have both the GT Perfect Files and neither state anything about a Fusion formula for the Metamorans.

The multiplier for SSJ4 is also unknown in GT. It is not a transformation from SSJ3, but a transformation from Golden Oozaru and later from base. If SSJ3 is 400x, SSJ4 has to be at least 1000x or more. This makes sense since Oozaru is 10x but when Bulma concentrated the Blutz rays on Vegeta, she said it was 1000x concentrated. This means that SSJ4=2.5x SSJ3. Gogeta fought Omega Shenron in SSJ4. Omega Shenron even survived a direct hit of Big Bang Kamehameha to his face. Hence, I'm not surprised that it took SSJ4 level to beat him. If we use 2.5 billion as the previously reported power level of SSJ Gogeta during Movie 12, then SSJ4 would put him at 50 billion.

Yeah, but the fact is that those numbers in V-Jump aren't really meant to be that accurate. It's not a matter of the movie being canon or not (I mean, in Fusion Reborn the characters are more or less intended to fill-in for the Buu Saga fighters, just facing an alternate enemy), the problem is that an axiom such as "Fusion = Potara = A + B" can't really work in general, whatever numbers you implement in your equation. If you start with "Super Saiyan Goku + Super Saiyan Vegeta" being stronger "Super Buu + Ultimate Gohan" You'll always end up with Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Buu.

Regarding the GT Perfect Files, I only happen to have the Italian translation at hand... however:


Look at the bottom right. "His strenght is ten times greater than normal". Incidentally, normal Syn/ Ishinlon is stated to be "equal to a Super Saiyan 4".



Same goes for Gogeta, see bottom: "his power is many tens of times greater than a regular Super Saiyan 4".

Regarding Gotenks (credits to DBZGTKOSDH):



The text below the red, although not really clear, says that Gotenks has, basically, dozens of times the power of Goten and Trunks alone.
In short, if you follow the guidebooks, all points out to Fusion multiplying the weakest fusee power many, many, many times over. But even if it isn't spelt out in the story, you can extrapolate it from Goku's words (the Metamorans, weak people, rising to normally unattainable levels of strenght throughout Fusion) pretty easily.

[Darkprince410]

Part of the problem you're going with for your calculations is that you're using the V-Jump battle power listed for Gogeta specifically for the Budokai 3 game. It's not stated or inferred to be his actual battle power at all, just specifically for the game.

Most notably though is that you claim that Vegetto and Gogeta should be identical in terms of power, but you're failing to take into account Gotenks's strength vs. Vegetto's. The boys, even before their time within the Room of Spirit and Time, weren't drastically far behind their fathers in terms of battle power, and the gap was narrowed even further when the boys trained within it. It took Gotenks in his Ssj3 form in order to more or less match base Evil Buu in terms of strength, which means, in all real likelihood, it would take Gogeta in that form (or at least Ssj2) in order to do the same. However, Vegetto, in his regular Ssj form, was able to completely overpower and outmatch the far stronger Gohan Buu, altogether indicating that the Potara fusion is the stronger (and not simply the more efficient) form of fusion.

The text below the red, although not really clear, says that Gotenks has, basically, dozens of times the power of Goten and Trunks alone.

That's not accurate. For Gotenks, he's described as simply being "many times stronger" than Goten and Trunks, and then in the GT Perfect Files, Gogeta is described as being "many tens of times" stronger than Goku and Vegeta. People have not only mixed up what was said for Gotenks and Gogeta many times over the years, but they've also somehow come up with Gogeta being many "dozens" of times stronger, when that's not mentioned at all.

[shadowfox87]

Part of the problem you're going with for your calculations is that you're using the V-Jump battle power listed for Gogeta specifically for the Budokai 3 game. It's not stated or inferred to be his actual battle power at all, just specifically for the game.

Most notably though is that you claim that Vegetto and Gogeta should be identical in terms of power, but you're failing to take into account Gotenks's strength vs. Vegetto's. The boys, even before their time within the Room of Spirit and Time, weren't drastically far behind their fathers in terms of battle power, and the gap was narrowed even further when the boys trained within it. It took Gotenks in his Ssj3 form in order to more or less match base Evil Buu in terms of strength, which means, in all real likelihood, it would take Gogeta in that form (or at least Ssj2) in order to do the same. However, Vegetto, in his regular Ssj form, was able to completely overpower and outmatch the far stronger Gohan Buu, altogether indicating that the Potara fusion is the stronger (and not simply the more efficient) form of fusion.

Based on the recent evidence from Daizenshuu 7, I admit that I may be wrong about Potara=Fusion Dance. I thought Old Kai referred to Potara being more efficient because no Dance or matching of power levels was required. However, it could be more power.

However, you are wrong that Goten and Trunks with just a little bit of training were catching up to Goku and Vegeta. If you remember the 14th movie which had Abo and Cado. Goten and Trunks could not defeat them. Goku and Vegeta are still leagues above Goten and Trunks. I doubt that Goten and Trunks have even reached ASSJ forget FPSSJ. Hence, I'm not surprised at all from the vast difference between Vegito and Gotenks. You can't compare Gotenks to Vegito. The only thing you can do is compare Vegito to Gogeta. It's true that Ultimate Buu>>Janemba.

The formula is most likely (A+B)xC where C is an unknown constant.

[LowRyder2005]

That's not accurate. For Gotenks, he's described as simply being "many times stronger" than Goten and Trunks, and then in the GT Perfect Files, Gogeta is described as being "many tens of times" stronger than Goku and Vegeta. People have not only mixed up what was said for Gotenks and Gogeta many times over the years, but they've also somehow come up with Gogeta being many "dozens" of times stronger, when that's not mentioned at all.

Oh, yeah. Right. I was aware Gogeta was "tens of times", but missed out that Gotenks is just described as "many times stronger" (thought it was "tens of times" for both). Not that the Fusion results are ever intended to be different, but it won't hurt to be as accurate as possible. They are different sources, after all.

[Darkprince410]

However, you are wrong that Goten and Trunks with just a little bit of training were catching up to Goku and Vegeta. If you remember the 14th movie which had Abo and Cado. Goten and Trunks could not defeat them. Goku and Vegeta are still leagues above Goten and Trunks. I doubt that Goten and Trunks have even reached ASSJ forget FPSSJ. Hence, I'm not surprised at all from the vast difference between Vegito and Gotenks. You can't compare Gotenks to Vegito. The only thing you can do is compare Vegito to Gogeta. It's true that Ultimate Buu>>Janemba.

Looking solely at the content within the manga, and not the Jump special (though even the Jump special's placement of them isn't 100% clear), they were a lot closer to their fathers than that. Additionally, Daizenshuu 4's entry for Goten specifically lists him as being equal in power to Gohan, and Gohan wasn't that much weaker than Goku and Vegeta (weaker yes, but not substantially so).

[shadowfox87]

Looking solely at the content within the manga, and not the Jump special (though even the Jump special's placement of them isn't 100% clear), they were a lot closer to their fathers than that. Additionally, Daizenshuu 4's entry for Goten specifically lists him as being equal in power to Gohan, and Gohan wasn't that much weaker than Goku and Vegeta (weaker yes, but not substantially so).

If Daizenshuu 4 states that Goten=Gohan in Buu saga, then I've lost all faith in Daizenshuus.

Gohan was still teaching Goten how to fly. Mystic Gohan>Gotenks. There's no way that Goten is even 50% of Gohan.

[Darkprince410]

Looking solely at the content within the manga, and not the Jump special (though even the Jump special's placement of them isn't 100% clear), they were a lot closer to their fathers than that. Additionally, Daizenshuu 4's entry for Goten specifically lists him as being equal in power to Gohan, and Gohan wasn't that much weaker than Goku and Vegeta (weaker yes, but not substantially so).

If Daizenshuu 4 states that Goten=Gohan in Buu saga, then I've lost all faith in Daizenshuus.

Gohan was still teaching Goten how to fly. Mystic Gohan>Gotenks. There's no way that Goten is even 50% of Gohan.

I meant Daizenshuu 2, not Daizenshuu 4. My bad on that specific number, but yes, that's precisely what it states, without really any room for interpretation otherwise.

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten possesses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

All that means is that he has enormous power, but he's had no one to teach him how to properly use it. By your logic, despite as impressive a display as he put during his match with Goku, Uub shouldn't be powerful at all because he didn't know how to fly yet either.

[apex_pretador]

Wrong because by your logic, SS3 Goku >>>> SS GoGeta

[shadowfox87]

Wrong because by your logic, SS3 Goku >>>> SS GoGeta

You're right it still doesn't make sense. The problem is that SSJ Gogeta was only revealed once in Movie 12. Then the V-Jump 2004 published the power level of SSJ Gogeta to be 2.5 billion. I calculated Goku's base power level to be 17 million which makes SSJ3 Goku=17x400=6.8 billion. So yea it looks off. Though, in order to make sense of it, you would have to lower Goku's base power level. The same V-Jump published that 1 Kili=50,000 BP. If that is true, then Goku's 3000 kili that Babidi read during his fight with Yakon would put him at a base of 3 million, which is too low for Goku. Especially when Cooler was reported to have a power level of 470 million and Goku defeated Cooler before he even reached ASSJ. Hence Goku's power level at SSJ has to be at least 500 million. Based on this, SSJ3 Goku=2x4x500 million=4 billiion, still greater than SSJ Gogeta which was 2.5 billion.

If we use a Goku base of 3 million as previously calculated based on 1 kili=50000 BP, then SSJ3 Goku=400x3 million=1.2 billion which is lower than SSJ Gogeta. If you think about it, it makes sense for Goku to have a low base power level in the Buu saga. Remember when Beerus commented that Goku base was weaker than Freeza on King Kai's planet?

So honestly, the only way it could make sense if the fusion formula for Fusion Dance is (A+B) x C where C is an unknown constant. The fusion formula for Potara is (A+B) x D where D>C.

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten possesses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

All that means is that he has enormous power, but he's had no one to teach him how to properly use it. By your logic, despite as impressive a display as he put during his match with Goku, Uub shouldn't be powerful at all because he didn't know how to fly yet either.

Ok, so I read that Daizenshuu. There's no way in hell that it would make sense for Goten=Gohan even before Gohan became Mystic. It's not just a matter of flying. Gohan was teaching Goten how to sense ki and use it against his fight with Abo/Cado. Gohan became severely weaker after not training for 7 years, but not so much that he would equal his kid brother. Not only that if you believe that Goten=Gohan, then by virtue Trunks>Gohan and I don't think anyone believes that.

My interpretation of the Daizenshuu is that Goten's potential was no less inferior to Gohan's. Goten has not even mastered SSJ yet. There was most likely a mistranslation of "battle power" from the Daizenshuu.

This was actually already discussed on Kanzenshuu before and they came to the same conclusion: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=31554

[LowRyder2005]

The translation is probably accurate, but If I were you I wouldn't take every statement from the Daizenshuu that literally, as well. To me it's probably a conceptual simplification meant to reflect the idea that Goten is more or less in the same realm of power of Gohan; the point that it wants to send across isn't really Goten = Gohan, just that Goten is no weakling, but a prodigy comparable to his brother.

[shadowfox87]

The translation is probably accurate, but If I were you I wouldn't take every statement from the Daizenshuu that literally, as well. To me it's probably a conceptual simplification meant to reflect the idea that Goten is more or less in the same realm of power of Gohan; the point that it wants to send across isn't really Goten = Gohan, just that Goten is no weakling, but a prodigy comparable to his brother.

Yep, I'll go by the interpretation that they meant "potential" or prodigy not power.

[Darkprince410]

Ok, so I read that Daizenshuu. There's no way in hell that it would make sense for Goten=Gohan even before Gohan became Mystic. It's not just a matter of flying. Gohan was teaching Goten how to sense ki and use it against his fight with Abo/Cado. Gohan became severely weaker after not training for 7 years, but not so much that he would equal his kid brother. Not only that if you believe that Goten=Gohan, then by virtue Trunks>Gohan and I don't think anyone believes that.

He and Trunks were rusty when it came to Abo and Cado though, as we clearly saw they were readily able to sense ki during the Buu arc itself. If anything, their inherent lack of skill and strength between the Buu arc and the Jump special can be attributed to "Gohan syndrome" rather than them not being insanely powerful to begin with. I mean, in the Jump special, they even screwed up their first attempt at Fusion due to being so rusty with it, so who's to say that their strength and other skills didn't take a nose dive during those two years as well?

[Speedster]

The only power level mentioned in the Buu Saga was based on Kili. During the fight between Goku and Yakon, Babidi stated Goku to have 3000 kili. V-Jump also published Cooler's power level at 470 million, which is approximately 4 times stronger than Freeza from Namek. Since SSJ Goku beat Cooler, we can assume that his power level >470 million before the Android Saga. Then Goku further ascended SSJ to ASSJ to FPSSJ. According to the Super Exciting Guide, SSJ2 is 2x SSJ, meaning that FPSSJ of less than 2x or 1.5x SSJ. So let us assume that SSJ Goku is 850 million and SSJ Vegeta is 820 milliion. Then FPSSJ Goku=850 x 1.5=1.3 billion and FPSSJ Vegeta=820x1.5=1.2 billion. Then 1.3 billion+1.2 billion=2.5 billion which is the exact power level of SSJ Gogeta. Hence, I think that Fusion is an addition and not a multiplication.

1. If you acknowledge that SSJ Goku is above Cooler's supposed 470million (so say SSJ Goku is 500 million) while also acknowledging the multipliers from SEG (SSJ2=SSJ1*2, SSJ3=SSJ2*4), you will get that (since SSJ3=8*SSJ1)
SSJ3 Goku=4 billion>>SSJ Gogeta=2.5 billion (>>>Janemba>>SSJ3 Goku!) which is obviously false.

2. Even without the power level values of V-jump, if Fusion were an addition then according to your logic a fused FPSSJ Vegetto/Gogeta would be 1.5*(SSJ1 Goku+SSJ1 Vegeta)=3*SSJ1 Goku. But according to the multipliers that you acknowledge that means that
FPSSJ Vegetto=1.5xSSJ2 Goku<<4*SSJ2 Goku=SSJ3 Goku which is obviously false

3. Even without multipliers at all, it still makes no sense for potara to be an addition. Super Buu is about equal to SSJ3 Gotenks, so Buutenks was roughly twice as strong as regular Super Buu. And Buuhan was even stronger than that. If fusion was just an addition

Buutenks=2*regular Super Buu
FPSSJ Vegetto=FPSSJ Goku+FPSSJ Vegeta=2*FPSSJ Goku.

Put them in an inequality
FPSSJ Vegetto>>Buttenks
2*FPSSJ Goku>>2*regular Super Buu

Hence FPSSJ Goku>>regular Super Buu which is obviously false.

4. If you go by the anime where Base Vegetto>Buuhan and SSJ3 Goku=kid Buu>Buuhan then SSJ3 Goku is probably in the same ballpark as base Vegetto. So fusing with the potara is like turning SSJ3. Or base times the multiplier of SSJ3 which according to the guidebooks which you acknowledge is 400. So potara fusion is like 200x the sum. By the way this holds true with other considerations where SSJ3 Goku<Super Buu (as base Vegetto did not fight Buuhan in the manga), so don't start the gazillion debate of Super Buu vs kid Buu

5. The way you try to use the kili/BP equivalence is unorthodox as you ignore its derivation process. The V-Jump randomly assumed that SSJ1 Goku in the Buu arc still has a BP of 150 million (the one that was stated in Daizenshuu to be his BP against Freeza on Namek). Then as in the manga Goku's power in kilis was stated to be 3000kili they divided 150million by 3000 to get 1 kili=50,000BP. Which is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen a guidebook doing alongside the power levels of the movie 3 pamphlet.

6. If you want to use the power levels of V-jump (Cooler 470 million, LSSJ Broly 1.4 billion, SSJ1 Gogeta 2.5 billion) fine but you need to consider a change in the scale (say for example that in the billions the scale changes from the millions) and/or ignore and modify the SSJ multipliers of the other guidebooks to different values and/or consider the power ups as boosts instead of mutliplication. And of course that fusion =/= addition.

7. Regarding the base Goku<Freeza by the BoGs arc I think it became pretty obvious in the RoF arc that EVERYONE in Super was relegated to below Namek arc Freeza levels including Piccolo, while though maintaining the notion that Adult base Saiyans>Piccolo as per Dabura's statement in the Buu arc.

8. In general numerical power levels are bullshit. Numerical power scaling is a popular topic amongst a large group of fans, especially newcomers, but the more you study the topic you will realise it is a complete and utter waste of time. There are no rules or mathematical formulas that were applied consistently. The characters are literally as strong or as weak as the plot demands and this is not just applicable to Dragonball Super but the entire Dragonball and the original manga in particular. Many folks on here think that most power scaling inconsistencies are just an anime-only thing and that the manga is nearly perfect - something that can't be farther from the truth but whatever.

[shadowfox87]

@Speedster: Thanks for that in-depth analysis. I agree with you and I have already admitted that I was wrong about the formula (I can't edit my first post). As I've already stated above, I think it is (A+B)xC for Fusion Dance and (A+B)xD for Potara where D>C and both C and D are constants.

I'm just trying to make sense based on the guidebooks and information that we have. However, like you, I have come across inconsistencies within the guidebook itself. The 1 kili=50000 BP for example does not make sense. It was even stated by Darbura that 200-300 Kili is enough to destroy 1-2 planets. Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga had a BP of 18,000 which is 0.36 Kili. Hence, the entire Kili conversion is unreliable and I've stopped using it.

I am still using the power levels of Gogeta, Brolly, and Cooler however. I realize that there are many inconsistencies when it comes to numerical scaling. However, we can compare whether A is stronger/weaker than B without numbers. This is what I have done and ranked characters based on feats or dialogues. Even so, I would still like to use the SSJ multipliers given in the guidebooks at least as a base. By using at least the V-Jump power levels, it helps to quell the Broly-tards also who claim that Broly's power is limitless i.e. Gogeta>Janemba>SSJ3>Hirudegarn>SSJ2>Super Perfect Cell>Hatchiyack>Broly (LSSJ)>Bojack>Darbura>FPSSJ.

Also, you had stated in your #4 that "SSJ3 Goku=Kid Buu>Buuhan". I disagree with this. In my opinion, it is Vegito>Buuhan>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku~Kid Buu. You can look at my other thread where I simply ranked characters without using numerical scaling: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1099570

[manwolf]

Let's see if we can have a formula with the knowledge we have in the manga.

Apparently Gotenks super saiyan before the training is stronger that majin buu, after the training in super saiyan 3 is stronger or equal that Super buu, and Vegetto in super saiyan is more stronger that Buu with Gohan, Piccolo , Goten and Trunks absorbed.

Lets begin with gotenks, we know that Majin Buu is stronger that Majin Vegeta but weaker than Goku super saiyan 3, because Goku is not fighting seriously, lets say that Buu is only a little stronger than Vegeta, If Goten and Trunks are equal that Vegeta the calculations are the sum of the fusee plus the difference between Vegeta and Buu, but because the kid are weaker that the adults the calculation are more like the sum of the fusee plus the difference between the kids and vegeta and the difference between Vegeta and Buu, a number like 2.5-3 is a good approximation, but they think Gotenks can win so lets say 3-3.5

But we have Gotenks super saiyan 3 and super Buu. We cannot know the increase of power via training but we know that a super saiyan 3 is an increase by 4, so we have three possibilities, than Buu increase are stronger, the reverse or that the increase are equal. If Buu increases are stronger that the number of the approximation is higher or the characters overestimate Gotenks, if is the reverse Gotenks trains more that Buu then or the approximation is lower or Gotenks underestimates, is the increases are equal the estimation are equal.

So with a kids half the strength of her father's the approximate calculations or the Metamoru fusion can be: 2(weaker)*2.5-3.5(this number can be more or less.)
If we count filler we know that the fusion of Gogeta are stronger than Goku super saiyan 3, so or the number is higher that 4, this can make sense if the kids are really weaker, if they are equal or stronger than Goku super saiyan 3 or if Buu increases in power more than Gotenks or a combination of options.

So last the potara calculations, Let's say that Vegetto are the double stronger than Super Buu with Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks, and Super Buu gohan absorbed approximately two times stronger that a normal super Buu, Goku super saiyan 3 is 4 time stronger than Goku super saiyan, but we don't know the difference between Goku super saiyan 3 and Super Buu.

But the calculation can be more or less like, (fusee 1+ fusee 2)+*9-10.

If we work with these numbers with kibitoshin, we know that Kaioshin are weaker than gohan, and Kibito are much weaker, maybe more that half the weaker, so in the calculation i am gonna count only Kaioshin, 2 times kaioshin are maybe equal or a little stronger than Gohan, 4 times between Goku and Vegeta super saiyan and Gohan super saiyan 2, 8 times maybe in super saiyan 2 realm, so or Kaishin are less that half Gohan or the number isn't fixed and can improve, cause if we think that Kibitoshin cannot be stronger that a super saiyan 2, so the number of these fusion are less that 4.5-5.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I think that by now you all know that Potara isn't permanent. Well, well bad boi Super.