How did Vegeta get God Ki?

[Cipher]

I have absolutely zero issue with this, given he trained with Whis, who is also capable of manipulating ki in vastly different ways from any of the cast up to that point ("god ki").

The Super Saiyan God form accessed through the ritual showed Saiyan capacity for handling that sort of power. Whis' unique form of training drew it out in Vegeta. I fail to see how it's a big deal. I think the implication is very, very much that he'd never attain that form/power even if he spent millennia training through other methods.

I don't get the complaints that Vegeta training with Whis to achieve the form is "lazy" either. It's less lazy to imply that he simply did the ritual, as Goku did? How? Why? Does it really matter?

If you can just train and attain Goldly Ki and become monstrously strong training with Whis' for at least 6 months, then guys like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, have no right not being on the same tier of strength as Goku and Vegeta are right now. They should all be Super Saiyan Blue/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan tier strength. But they aren't because... reasons. I don't know why none of them thought it would be good idea to ask Whis to train them especially since Goku tells the Z-Fighters that is exactly how Vegeta got so insanely strong in the first place.

Whis isn't running a charity. Goku and Vegeta had to beg to become more-or-less his full-time students, and his training nearly kills even them.

You could ask, I suppose, why the other Saiyans don't undergo the ritual to achieve Super Saiyan God, but given that absorbing and maintaining its power seems to be prodigious/training-related as well, the result would be the same -- the other characters aren't interested in working full-time toward Super Saiyan God/Blue. Piccolo might be, but he isn't looking to become Whis' third student and may not have the same capacity for god ki that the Saiyans show. Either way, it's fine.

[Captain Strawberry]

He just vaguely obtained it through training and also absorbed it somehow.

[sintzu]

And let's not even talk about SSJ3; he STILL hasn't reached that.

But after like, what was it, a year (?)

In order to reach Goku's level he would've had to be able to reach Ssj3 first so he probably has it.

6 months.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta gained the astounding, unfathomable, unprecedented, universe-threatening power of a Super Saiyan God... By, like, trying reeeaaaally hard, you guys. For serious, he's such a dedicated trooper.

Vegeta is known for going above and beyond to reach his goal so in a way it makes sense even though it shouldn't.

It doesn't make sense if you remember the fact Vegeta trained his ass off harder than Goku to even reach SSJ2 and without the unlock potential afforded to him by the Majin Boost, its highly debatable if he even managed to bypass Gohan in his Cell Games peak after all that.

But Super's making a precedent to just ignore or outright retcon previous developments so the new stuff seems more special in comparison (just look at how "mastering" SSJ essentially meant fuck all with a serious dose of fuck yourself according to Super. Seriously, one of the few developments from the Cell arc that paid off and was interesting and you feel the need to just flat out say it didn't matter?

[TheGreatness25]

Vegeta did what Vegeta does best: mope, whine, cry, and be in denial until the Saiyans did him a favor and did the ritual for him. Goku patted him on the head and said, "Don't worry, Vegeta, you can be a Super Saiyan God too!" And after they did the ritual, Vegeta did the other thing he does best: try to proclaim himself the most powerful and rub it in everyone's faces until Goku powered up to compare and made Vegeta sad.

[TheMikado]

Vegeta gained the astounding, unfathomable, unprecedented, universe-threatening power of a Super Saiyan God... By, like, trying reeeaaaally hard, you guys. For serious, he's such a dedicated trooper.

Vegeta is known for going above and beyond to reach his goal so in a way it makes sense even though it shouldn't.

It doesn't make sense if you remember the fact Vegeta trained his ass off harder than Goku to even reach SSJ2 and without the unlock potential afforded to him by the Majin Boost, its highly debatable if he even managed to bypass Gohan in his Cell Games peak after all that.

But Super's making a precedent to just ignore or outright retcon previous developments so the new stuff seems more special in comparison (just look at how "mastering" SSJ essentially meant fuck all with a serious dose of fuck yourself according to Super. Seriously, one of the few developments from the Cell arc that paid off and was interesting and you feel the need to just flat out say it didn't matter?

Wait where did Super say that about SSJ?

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta is known for going above and beyond to reach his goal so in a way it makes sense even though it shouldn't.

It doesn't make sense if you remember the fact Vegeta trained his ass off harder than Goku to even reach SSJ2 and without the unlock potential afforded to him by the Majin Boost, its highly debatable if he even managed to bypass Gohan in his Cell Games peak after all that.

But Super's making a precedent to just ignore or outright retcon previous developments so the new stuff seems more special in comparison (just look at how "mastering" SSJ essentially meant fuck all with a serious dose of fuck yourself according to Super. Seriously, one of the few developments from the Cell arc that paid off and was interesting and you feel the need to just flat out say it didn't matter?

Wait where did Super say that about SSJ?

When it started this whole SSJ Blue Kaio-Ken business where apparently there's too much emotional turmoil and difficulty to combining Kaio-Ken and even a mastered level of Super Saiyan. What emotional turmoil?! Goku and Gohan are 100% fine in their Super Saiyan states after exiting the ROSAT! Goku's even able to use Super Saiyan with the Spirit Bomb when he uses its rush of power to kill Kid Boo!

But according to Super, Super Saiyan still makes you a rage filled lunatic. And before you throw the "but Blue gives you perfect Ki control!" card at me, an episode before then, Goku and Vegeta say Blue is apparently taxing on ones stamina, so which is it? Cause I would think a form that gives you perfect ki control would be a form where the user can perfectly CONTROL! the amount of ki the form will use up! Kind of like Super Saiyan after being mastered did!

[LightBing]

When it started this whole SSJ Blue Kaio-Ken business where apparently there's too much emotional turmoil and difficulty to combining Kaio-Ken and even a mastered level of Super Saiyan. What emotional turmoil?! Goku and Gohan are 100% fine in their Super Saiyan states after exiting the ROSAT! Goku's even able to use Super Saiyan with the Spirit Bomb when he uses its rush of power to kill Kid Boo!

But according to Super, Super Saiyan still makes you a rage filled lunatic. And before you throw the "but Blue gives you perfect Ki control!" card at me, an episode before then, Goku and Vegeta say Blue is apparently taxing on ones stamina, so which is it? Cause I would think a form that gives you perfect ki control would be a form where the user can perfectly CONTROL! the amount of ki the form will use up! Kind of like Super Saiyan after being mastered did!

The mastered SSJ concept was thrown away in the Boo Arc which made everyone, specially Goku, look like idiots. Going for SSJ2 and SSJ3 instead of improving on SSJ is pure regression. Super has returned to that idea. I have no problem with SSJ being incompatible with the Kaioken, even with the mastery. It always seemed logical to me, the transformation very nature is emotion. It's should be always there, no matter how much the user represses it.

Control and fatigue are different things, I can perfectly control a Ferrari but be burning fuel at an insane rate, because it's a bloody Ferrari.

[Xeztin]

My best bet would be there are two ways to gain God Ki.

1: Having help from others (SSG ritual) which is a cheat.
2: Training with someone with God Ki and having it passed onto you. (Goku and Vegeta's bro fist)

How to obtain SSJB:
1: Training with someone like Whis who teaches you how to control and refine your God Ki, which it seems they can only do while in Super Saiyan mode. SSG wasn't refined, was borrowed energy, so it was weaker.

[ekrolo2]

The mastered SSJ concept was thrown away in the Boo Arc which made everyone, specially Goku, look like idiots. Going for SSJ2 and SSJ3 instead of improving on SSJ is pure regression. Super has returned to that idea. I have no problem with SSJ being incompatible with the Kaioken, even with the mastery. It always seemed logical to me, the transformation very nature is emotion. It's should be always there, no matter how much the user represses it.

Control and fatigue are different things, I can perfectly control a Ferrari but be burning fuel at an insane rate, because it's a bloody Ferrari.

It was a form of necessity rather than a regression, they were fighting opponents who's power dwarfed that of even a mastered Super Saiyan so they HAD to use forced transformations to compensate for it. Force transformations that only became available to them upon mastering SSJ, hence why its long term contribution wasn't lost, until Super.

The nature of the form might be aggression but that's the point of mastering it: taming the beast, something the series itself supported when Goku's Spirit Bomb didn't suddenly go tits up when he transformed into an SSJ to power it up. An ability that requires concentration and a peaceful mind to use properly.

Ki isn't a Ferrari though, why? Because these guys can directly control how much power they can use for any given activity concerning Ki, hence why a form that gives you PERFECT Ki control should not also be one that drains your stamina! These guys can make a Ki blast that's insignificant enough to barely move a pebble to leveling a freaking planet! Perfect Ki control means being perfectly able to regulate the amount of Ki you will use for a technique or transformation! How does a form that was still apparently unstable in the Cell arc let Goku & Gohan stay perpetually in Super Saiyan for 10 days straight apparently have better Ki control for its user than a form that's being touted as having perfect Ki control!

[LightBing]

The mastered SSJ concept was thrown away in the Boo Arc which made everyone, specially Goku, look like idiots. Going for SSJ2 and SSJ3 instead of improving on SSJ is pure regression. Super has returned to that idea. I have no problem with SSJ being incompatible with the Kaioken, even with the mastery. It always seemed logical to me, the transformation very nature is emotion. It's should be always there, no matter how much the user represses it.

Control and fatigue are different things, I can perfectly control a Ferrari but be burning fuel at an insane rate, because it's a bloody Ferrari.

It was a form of necessity rather than a regression, they were fighting opponents who's power dwarfed that of even a mastered Super Saiyan so they HAD to use forced transformations to compensate for it. Force transformations that only became available to them upon mastering SSJ, hence why its long term contribution wasn't lost, until Super.

The nature of the form might be aggression but that's the point of mastering it: taming the beast, something the series itself supported when Goku's Spirit Bomb didn't suddenly go tits up when he transformed into an SSJ to power it up. An ability that requires concentration and a peaceful mind to use properly.

Ki isn't a Ferrari though, why? Because these guys can directly control how much power they can use for any given activity concerning Ki, hence why a form that gives you PERFECT Ki control should not also be one that drains your stamina! These guys can make a Ki blast that's insignificant enough to barely move a pebble to leveling a freaking planet! Perfect Ki control means being perfectly able to regulate the amount of Ki you will use for a technique or transformation! How does a form that was still apparently unstable in the Cell arc let Goku & Gohan stay perpetually in Super Saiyan for 10 days straight apparently have better Ki control for its user than a form that's being touted as having perfect Ki control!

Who was Goku fighting in the seven years he was dead? He choose to go against his own logic and go the surpassing SSJ route. Which he said this about:

Spoiler:

"Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

The wording for both the Grades and SSJ2 was: surpassing SSJ. They are essentially the same thing, it's logical that Gohan had to go to SSJ2 to surpass Cell, that was out of necessity. Goku knowing about the transformation and trying to achieve it, instead of trying to have the same power in SSJ is regression. He had all eternity, there wasn't any threat lingering.

Goku made the Genki Dama while in Base, he just used SSJ to push it. At that point the peaceful mind and concentration don't factor in. Remember Kuririn who was able to launch it, after Goku did the heavy work. Same thing.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. It still seems to me like they're simply working with a form which has a higher "resting heart rate", which is impossible to separate. They can still control everything else, although I see the contradiction. Or maybe it isn't about output, but the holding the ki inside stuff we see them training with Whis.

[Vynak]

Vegeta gained the astounding, unfathomable, unprecedented, universe-threatening power of a Super Saiyan God... By, like, trying reeeaaaally hard, you guys. For serious, he's such a dedicated trooper.

Vegeta is known for going above and beyond to reach his goal so in a way it makes sense even though it shouldn't.

Perhaps this is Vegeta's elite bloodline finally kicking in at long last. I really wish this had been explained better because honesty the hard physical workouts don't make sense as Vegeta's been doing them his entire life. So either he underwent specific ki training with Whis off screen (Whis doesn't seem particularly hands on though) or due to his naturally superior bloodline, the god ki was already present but dormant until he reached a certain point and could then tap into it. The latter just seems to make more sense to me because I just don't see how ki-training would suddenly spawn god ki when previously there was none. Whereas if Vegeta naturally already had god ki and just needed to know how to access it and use it, training makes perfect sense.

[ekrolo2]

Who was Goku fighting in the seven years he was dead? He choose to go against his own logic and go the surpassing SSJ route. Which he said this about:

Spoiler:

"Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

The wording for both the Grades and SSJ2 was: surpassing SSJ. They are essentially the same thing, it's logical that Gohan had to go to SSJ2 to surpass Cell, that was out of necessity. Goku knowing about the transformation and trying to achieve it, instead of trying to have the same power in SSJ is regression. He had all eternity, there wasn't any threat lingering.

Goku made the Genki Dama while in Base, he just used SSJ to push it. At that point the peaceful mind and concentration don't factor in. Remember Kuririn who was able to launch it, after Goku did the heavy work. Same thing.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. It still seems to me like they're simply working with a form which has a higher "resting heart rate", which is impossible to separate. They can still control everything else, although I see the contradiction. Or maybe it isn't about output, but the holding the ki inside stuff we see them training with Whis.

They're all forced transformations, but 2 is the lesser evil in comparison to Grade 2 and Grade 3 and SSJ3 both of which increase your muscle mass making you slower and also drain more power. 2 is the most balanced of these forced transformations, making you more aggressive and wasting more energy but not so much it becomes completely un-viable for combat and nor does it increase your body mass to a bloated point where you're next to useless speed wise.

Why did Goku go with this? Well, Goku already goes against his own spurt of maturity at the end of the Cell arc so there's your in-character reason for why he goes against this doctrine. It's also possible that Goku thought the only way to improve himself was to go this forced transformation route. The only mention of 2 and 3 being tossed out the window isn't until after Goku attains his God form, implying that, at this stage coupled with Toriyama's comment that Goku and Vegeta are tapped out in BoG, shows us that neither are viable anymore or they just flat out can't use them anymore. Similar to a theory people have with GT where Goku traded in the massive power increases of his SSJ forms to make his base state strong as all hell.

Really, we shouldn't even have to debate about this. They didn't need to make the stamina comment or retcon Mastered SSJ. To explain why Goku and Vegeta keep Blue hidden all they needed to say was they sensed Hit was strong and they wanted to keep a trump card for him and have Goku counter Time Leap with Instantaneous Movement instead of Kaio-Ken.

[ChiefWamsutta]

The nature of the form [Super Saiyan] might be aggression but that's the point of mastering it: taming the beast, something the series itself supported

I never liked Old Kai's reason for Goku using SSGSS KK. Just say something like, it matches better because they're both godly techniques.

*Spits*

Vegeta gained the astounding, unfathomable, unprecedented, universe-threatening power of a Super Saiyan God... By, like, trying reeeaaaally hard, you guys. For serious, he's such a dedicated trooper.

Vegeta is known for going above and beyond to reach his goal so in a way it makes sense even though it shouldn't.

Perhaps this is Vegeta's elite bloodline finally kicking in at long last. I really wish this had been explained better because honesty the hard physical workouts don't make sense as Vegeta's been doing them his entire life. So either he underwent specific ki training with Whis off screen (Whis doesn't seem particularly hands on though) or due to his naturally superior bloodline, the god ki was already present but dormant until he reached a certain point and could then tap into it. The latter just seems to make more sense to me because I just don't see how ki-training would suddenly spawn god ki when previously there was none. Whereas if Vegeta naturally already had god ki and just needed to know how to access it and use it, training makes perfect sense.

I really like this idea, and it would explain SO much. If Vegeta's royal bloodline caused him to have dormant God Ki AND make huge power level leaps through training, we could have a satisfactory answer. I would be okay with this.

[Zephyr]

Training with Whis is actually probably not the same as any other kind of training.

Yes, every other character is stupid for not abusing this, in the same way that they're stupid for (in various combinations) not taking advantage of the Super God Water, the Kaioken, gravity chambers, Namekian Elder power up (just go to the afterlife and find him), cybernetic enhancements ala 17 and 18, the Room of Spirit and Time, the Kaioshin power up, sparring while fused with other fused sparring partners for exponential gains, wishing Babidi back and forcing him to use his power up technique, and various forms of martial arts insight from Roshi, Karin, and Popo.

*Spits*

[MaxZ]

Personally I think that god ki is just condensed normal ki, and it can be attained by learning to 'not let your ki leak out'

Likewise, the Super Saiyan God ritual is performed by 5 Saiyans imparting a 6th Saiyan with their ki, ergo a bunch of condensed normal ki. But as a result of the user not having the ability to 'keep their ki from leaking out', the form has a short time limit.

[Tectorman]

Personally I think that god ki is just condensed normal ki, and it can be attained by learning to 'not let your ki leak out'

Likewise, the Super Saiyan God ritual is performed by 5 Saiyans imparting a 6th Saiyan with their ki, ergo a bunch of condensed normal ki. But as a result of the user not having the ability to 'keep their ki from leaking out', the form has a short time limit.

This seems as coherent as anything else, and it jives with how I first saw it. I originally thought of the difference between god ki and normal ki as analogous to human-hearing-range sounds and ultra-high-pitch sounds. They're both sound, but only a dog will be hearing the latter. Except, what is a high frequency but a large number of wavelengths all crammed together? Which is another way of saying "condensed".

[ekrolo2]

Personally I think that god ki is just condensed normal ki, and it can be attained by learning to 'not let your ki leak out'

Likewise, the Super Saiyan God ritual is performed by 5 Saiyans imparting a 6th Saiyan with their ki, ergo a bunch of condensed normal ki. But as a result of the user not having the ability to 'keep their ki from leaking out', the form has a short time limit.

I'd have an easier time buying this if Goku and Vegeta didn't flare that shit up like madmen at any given opportunity they can after receiving advice not to do it anymore. Then there's the whole dragon ki thing from the BoG arc.

[MadSaiyantist]

I'd have an easier time buying this if Goku and Vegeta didn't flare that shit up like madmen at any given opportunity they can after receiving advice not to do it anymore. Then there's the whole dragon ki thing from the BoG arc.

Don't really see how that creates a problem with the theory. They've already trained and created the "condensed Ki" so they can do whatever they want with it at that point.

[ekrolo2]

I'd have an easier time buying this if Goku and Vegeta didn't flare that shit up like madmen at any given opportunity they can after receiving advice not to do it anymore. Then there's the whole dragon ki thing from the BoG arc.

Don't really see how that creates a problem with the theory. They've already trained and created the "condensed Ki" so they can do whatever they want with it at that point.

Why not keep using that method though? If its a gateway to greater power, why not just always use it to maximize training results? Goku uses ROSHI-esque methods and the ROSAT, both of which are long since thought obsolete as a good training methods so I don't see why he'd still use those but tell Whis' sole actual contribution to their growth to piss off.