I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

[MisteryOne]

The whole mess was indeed induced because of the completely unnecesary return of the gold forms. Seriously, can someone tell me why they did come back apart from fanservice? Beerus' power had been retconned in ROF anyway, Goku and Vegeta were still inferior to him.

It would have been interesting to have Goku and Vegeta use their bases in most battles (including U6 arc) and only using Blue against real threats.

I would love to subscribe to the two base theory, but I can't find a decent in-universe explanation as to why would they use their weaker bases, there is no visual change between the two bases which seems odd, and the fight with Toppo contradicts it. Its not like Toei is following a power scale either, just watch the lastest episode. Characters train offscreen and just get a lot stronger.

If you want to blame anyone for this mess, blame Toriyama. It was ultimately his decision to bring back the golden forms in the new material, despite previously saying that Goku wouldn't be using them that much anymore. But Toei and Toyotaro didn't know about this change until very late in the game, because both and the manga were still portraying the idea that Goku in his base form was as strong as SSJG, or was at the very least insanely strong, until the new material started.

I never said anyone else should be blamed because of it. I'm just saying Toei doesn't use the Two base idea even if it's confirmed as a thing so in the end its pointless. I'm glad Toyotaro uses the most logical approach by using SSG and I also like the form, but I still thing that Base and Blue being the only forms (until a new one was needed of course) was a good idea and it should not have changed. Hell, it was my favourite thing of ROF along with most of the new designs.

[Lord Beerus]

^ the manga didn't give them super strong bases.

Yes, it did:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

How does that mean a super strong base? Vegeta could be using the "suppressed" SSB that we keep citing.
I'm fairly certain that's the only panel that may even partially imply that. The manga is incredibly consistent with depicting their base forms as weaker than SSG, I wouldn't put too much stock into a single panel that needs to be be further interpreted beyond what it's showing which is Vegeta went SSB and hurt Goku in a sparring match. I don't think you can really pull his relative base strength for this single panel and should be supported with other evidence.

There's no clothing damage or a single scratch on Goku's face or anywhere on his. He just exclaims that it hurt and the transforms into SSJB like nothing happened. If anything, this support the claim that SSJB has perfect ki control considering that SSJB Vegeta was able to drop his battle power to match Base Goku. But do we know just how much SSJB Vegeta suppressed his strength? Is there anything to say that Goku in his base form isn't just really strong? Whether the evidence of there being super strong bases in one panel in the manga or is in several is irrelevant. The manga clearly shows that Base Goku literally tanked a massive ki blast attack at point blank from SSJB Vegeta. We can't just disregard this scenario on the principle that it only happened once. The point is that it happened.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Can someone tell me why SSJ3 Gotenks getting floored is proof of a SSJG-level Base Vegeta, when Gotenks has performed miserably in all three of his Super fights and apparently has so little tact that Goku doesn't even want him in the tournament? Why does the SSJ3 form automatically make all of this irrelevant when even Super Saiyan Blue is becoming increasingly trivial?

[TheMikado]

Yes, it did:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

How does that mean a super strong base? Vegeta could be using the "suppressed" SSB that we keep citing.
I'm fairly certain that's the only panel that may even partially imply that. The manga is incredibly consistent with depicting their base forms as weaker than SSG, I wouldn't put too much stock into a single panel that needs to be be further interpreted beyond what it's showing which is Vegeta went SSB and hurt Goku in a sparring match. I don't think you can really pull his relative base strength for this single panel and should be supported with other evidence.

There's no clothing damage or a single scratch on Goku's face or anywhere on his. He just exclaims that it hurt and the transforms into SSJB like nothing happened. If anything, this support the claim that SSJB has perfect ki control considering that SSJB Vegeta was able to drop his battle power to match Base Goku. But do we know just how much SSJB Vegeta suppressed his strength? Is there anything to say that Goku in his base form isn't just really strong? Whether the evidence of there being super strong bases in one panel in the manga or is in several is irrelevant. The manga clearly shows that Base Goku literally tanked a massive ki blast attack at point blank from SSJB Vegeta. We can't just disregard this scenario on the principle that it only happened once. The point is that it happened.

Ok so which is it? Is Vegeta using perfect ki control or is Goku's base super strong? Because without additional panels to assert you can't claim either way because the scene on its own is too ambiguous.

[Lord Beerus]

How does that mean a super strong base? Vegeta could be using the "suppressed" SSB that we keep citing.
I'm fairly certain that's the only panel that may even partially imply that. The manga is incredibly consistent with depicting their base forms as weaker than SSG, I wouldn't put too much stock into a single panel that needs to be be further interpreted beyond what it's showing which is Vegeta went SSB and hurt Goku in a sparring match. I don't think you can really pull his relative base strength for this single panel and should be supported with other evidence.

There's no clothing damage or a single scratch on Goku's face or anywhere on his. He just exclaims that it hurt and the transforms into SSJB like nothing happened. If anything, this support the claim that SSJB has perfect ki control considering that SSJB Vegeta was able to drop his battle power to match Base Goku. But do we know just how much SSJB Vegeta suppressed his strength? Is there anything to say that Goku in his base form isn't just really strong? Whether the evidence of there being super strong bases in one panel in the manga or is in several is irrelevant. The manga clearly shows that Base Goku literally tanked a massive ki blast attack at point blank from SSJB Vegeta. We can't just disregard this scenario on the principle that it only happened once. The point is that it happened.

Ok so which is it? Is Vegeta using perfect ki control or is Goku's base super strong? Because without additional panels to assert you can't claim either way because the scene on its own is too ambiguous.

There is nothing ambiguous about that scene. Vegeta turns SSJB, blasts Goku at point blank range with a massive ki attack and Goku literally tanks it. Vegeta wouldn't have turned SSJB to attack Goku in the way that he did if he didn't think Goku wouldn't have gotten seriously hurt from that attack. Vegeta must have know that Goku's base form was strong enough to endure an attack like that, even if it is heavily suppressed, with barely any repercussions. There is seriously not a single scratch on Goku's body or on his gi. Goku damn near no sold that attack.

Nothing so far in the manga or anime has contradicted the notion that Goku's base form, and by extension Vegeta's base form, are very strong. They aren't SSJG tier strong, but really powerful nonetheless. It's been established at this point in both medium, so I don't see why Super has to feel obligated to given even more evidence of what has already been implied.

[ekrolo2]

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

After watching GotG 2, I take back what I said about Super's writing being some of the worst I've ever seen

[Lord Beerus]

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

After watching GotG 2, I take back what I said about Super's writing being some of the worst I've ever seen

What has Marvel done to upset you now?

P.S. I really liked that movie

[Tectorman]

Yes that's fine and well but in universe using SSJ makes zero sense in this context. Going SSJ would give no added benefit to user if they're ability to scale God ki works as a range and already surpasses it. Why would Goku in his mind as the character use SSJ if he has the ranged base power ability as you state?

If he fights as a SSJ at 100%, then anyone sensing him will feel that he's at full power. That is to say, seemingly incapable of more. Were he to fight at that level as a suppressed SbG, or with a ranged base power, then he will still feel to his opponent as though he could be stronger.

Why SSJ, then? To avoid tipping his hand too early.

What? Where is that ever said??? I don't think what you're describing is even a real thing in the franchise. I've never seen where going SSJ masked their true strength.

It was one of the theories going around here, the notion that all characters feel differently when they're at full power versus when they're not at full power. Not official, but it still fit everything else, especially how sensing Ki is a greater advantage than having a Scouter (the latter just tells you where the opponent is PL-wise, the former will let you know whether where they are now is all they could be).

I'll agree it's just a headcanon theory that I picked up here, but I think it still makes sense on its own, and it (possibly) gives us the reason for "SSJ vs suppressed SbG".

[Tectorman]

Kido's comment means nothing. What we see in the show, we ultimately have to take at face value. If we see Vegeta kicking Goku Black's ass, then by all logic, he's stronger than him. Regardless of what anyone else says. I also think you really low-balling just how strong Goku and Vegeta go in the ROSAT. I mean, we later see what SSJB Vegeta was able to do in the SSJR Goku Black after Vegeta spent no more than a day in the ROSAT training by himself. I think spending three years in the ROSAT must have resulted in, at the very least, a decent boost in strength, if not a huge one. I'm sure by that stage Goku and Vegeta were at the very least stronger than Golden Freeza. Who on the 6-10-15 scale, must have been an 8 at the least considering how much Golden Freeza dominated SSJB Goku in their fight until Freeza started get gassed the longer the battle went.

I disagree that a beatdown auto-equates to being more powerful in all circumstances. Most of the time? Sure. But we've seen stronger characters lose out to weaker ones. Who would win, Cell Saga Grade 3 Trunks or Cell (better yet, Cell still suppressed to where he was when he first appeared)? Was Fat Janemba a threat to the universe? Base Goku could keep up with him; so was he a universe-level threat in Movie 12? Who's faster, Goku (90,000) or Ginyu (120,000)?

Sure, I'm lowballing their gains, but when I have the choice to lowball their gains AND stay true to what was established before or to highball their gains at the expense of what was established, I will pick lowballing every time. If it lets more in- and out-of-universe material be true, then it's my number one pick out of, really, no other options at all.

As for the low numbers, I've got Golden Frieza between 7 and 7.5, the RoF SSB above 6 but below 7, and by U6, SSB at between 7.5 and 8. SSR ends up between 9 and 10, and Vegeta's final SSB just below that. Which I think still gives enough power gaps between the respective fights to result in what we see in-screen without throwing source material out.

In the manga, Vegeta uses SSJG purely because SSJB burns through stamina very quickly. He alternates between SSJG and SSJB when fighting SSJR Goku Black. It's only in short bursts that he uses SSJB when attacking Goku Black. But in those short burst, he does major damage to SSJR Goku Black and kicks his ass. SSJB Vegeta, after training the ROSAT, was stronger than SSJR Goku Black. No ifs, no buts, it's a fact. There's no way he would have able to inflict any serious damage on him in the anime or the manga, if that wasn't the case.

Yes, SSB (and by extension, SSR) burn through stamina quickly. Vegeta's ability to switch between SSG and SSB gave him the edge in how long he could keep fighting at that level. However, I never saw him inflicting any singularly devastating attack on Black in the manga; rather, I saw a slow methodical wearing down.

I mean, if manga Vegeta's SSB were indeed just straight up more powerful than SSR, then why all the fuss about switching down to SSG? Why not just use the more powerful SSB, stay SSB, dominate SSR the whole time, and while it would wear Vegeta out eventually, so would SSR eventually wear out and probably sooner (what with it being weaker and all)?

The fact that manga Vegeta was bothering to use the SSG-SSB switch at all is what tells me that his SSB was not simply straight up more powerful than SSR. Which jives with what we're told out-of-universe. Which does not, I think, come at the expense of what we see in-universe.

God ki is by no means any stronger or any better than Mortal ki. That theory was stomped into the ground when Golden Freeza became a thing and he ended up kicking SSJB Goku's ass in Resurrection F. Plus we latter see guys like Hit and Toppo more than hold their own against SSJB Goku, in the anime at the very least. At this stage, the only thing special about God ki is that you can't sense it.

How did it get stomped into the ground? For all we know, he just had an absurdly large amount of Mortal Ki, enough to do vastly more what Goku's Mortal Ki, even augmented by the Kaioken, could have done. Ditto Hit and Toppo. I still think God Ki is ill-defined enough even at this stage to allow for what I'm saying.

You don't agree? Fine. But I personally have yet to see a circumstance where the 6-10-15 scale can no longer apply.

[Lord Beerus]

I disagree that a beatdown auto-equates to being more powerful in all circumstances. Most of the time? Sure. But we've seen stronger characters lose out to weaker ones. Who would win, Cell Saga Grade 3 Trunks or Cell (better yet, Cell still suppressed to where he was when he first appeared)? Was Fat Janemba a threat to the universe? Base Goku could keep up with him; so was he a universe-level threat in Movie 12? Who's faster, Goku (90,000) or Ginyu (120,000)?

Sure, I'm lowballing their gains, but when I have the choice to lowball their gains AND stay true to what was established before or to highball their gains at the expense of what was established, I will pick lowballing every time. If it lets more in- and out-of-universe material be true, then it's my number one pick out of, really, no other options at all.

As for the low numbers, I've got Golden Frieza between 7 and 7.5, the RoF SSB above 6 but below 7, and by U6, SSB at between 7.5 and 8. SSR ends up between 9 and 10, and Vegeta's final SSB just below that. Which I think still gives enough power gaps between the respective fights to result in what we see in-screen without throwing source material out.

In one-on-one fights in Dragon Ball, the stronger character defeats the weaker one 99.999% of the time. I'm struggling to think of an example where a stronger character decisively lost to a weaker one in a one-on-one battle

Plus, considering the numbers you've just given for SSJB Goku/Vegeta during the U6/U7 tournament, and the fact that Vegeta gets even stronger than that in the Future Trunks arc, can you now see that the 6-10-15 can't work? Especially since SSJB Vegetto is a thing. You can't tell me that 7.5> + 7.5> = <15, given that Kaioshin comments that Vegetto power may have surpassed Beerus.

Yes, SSB (and by extension, SSR) burn through stamina quickly. Vegeta's ability to switch between SSG and SSB gave him the edge in how long he could keep fighting at that level. However, I never saw him inflicting any singularly devastating attack on Black in the manga; rather, I saw a slow methodical wearing down.

I mean, if manga Vegeta's SSB were indeed just straight up more powerful than SSR, then why all the fuss about switching down to SSG? Why not just use the more powerful SSB, stay SSB, dominate SSR the whole time, and while it would wear Vegeta out eventually, so would SSR eventually wear out and probably sooner (what with it being weaker and all)?

The fact that manga Vegeta was bothering to use the SSG-SSB switch at all is what tells me that his SSB was not simply straight up more powerful than SSR. Which jives with what we're told out-of-universe. Which does not, I think, come at the expense of what we see in-universe.

Have you actually read the chapter in question where Vegeta interchanges between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black? He dominates Goku Balck for the entirety of their battle. And as stated before, Super Saiyan Blue burns through your stamina in the manga, so if Vegeta used the form straight from the get go he would burn through all of his ki before he could have gotten the job done. The whole point of Vegeta interchanging between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black wasn't because SSJB wouldn't get the job done. It's so that Vegeta could manage his power more efficiently and wouldn't wastes all of his energy as SSJB. Hell, Goku outright states that to be the case in the chapter. If SSJB Vegeta wasn't stronger than SSJR Goku Black at the point in the narrative then he wouldn't have sent SSJR Goku Black flying into several buildings with a single kick and he wouldn't have beat him up as easily as he did.

How did it get stomped into the ground? For all we know, he just had an absurdly large amount of Mortal Ki, enough to do vastly more what Goku's Mortal Ki, even augmented by the Kaioken, could have done. Ditto Hit and Toppo. I still think God Ki is ill-defined enough even at this stage to allow for what I'm saying.

You don't agree? Fine. But I personally have yet to see a circumstance where the 6-10-15 scale can no longer apply.

Having God ki doesn't automatically mean you have a greater reservoir of strength compared users that have Mortal Ki. Kaioshin and Dende wield God ki but we know they're nothing compared to the main cast. Particularly the Saiyans and the Androids.

[Tectorman]

In one-on-one fights in Dragon Ball, the stronger character defeats the weaker one 99.999% of the time. I'm struggling to think of an example where a stronger character decisively lost to a weaker one in a one-on-one battle

Plus, considering the numbers you've just given for SSJB Goku/Vegeta during the U6/U7 tournament, and the fact that Vegeta gets even stronger than that in the Future Trunks arc, can you now see that the 6-10-15 can't work? Especially since SSJB Vegetto is a thing. You can't tell me that 7.5> + 7.5> = <15, given that Kaioshin comments that Vegetto power may have surpassed Beerus.

Off the top of my head, Golden Frieza lost to SSB Goku. Heck, isn't it the same scenario as SSR vs Vegeta? Golden Frieza became less effective the longer it was used. If SSR really is just Goku Black's version of SSB, then it would have the same drain SSB has (true in the manga, and true in the anime, what with Goku not starting out his fight with Hit in SSB for the same reason). Goku's SSB also has a drain, just not as much as Golden Frieza. In like fashion, manga SSB Vegeta had a drain that he mitigated by also using SSG.

Ergo, if SSB Goku can be weaker than Golden Frieza and end up dominating him via his power not draining as fast, then SSB Vegeta can be weaker than SSR Goku Black via his power not draining as fast. The only difference between those two scenarios is that Goku spent some of his fight with Frieza at a disadvantage while Vegeta never did against Black. Which I can chalk up to the gap between Goku and Frieza being greater than the gap between Vegeta and Black, as well as Vegeta's greater experience as a fighter in comparison with Black. So for all the times the stronger character beats the weaker character, this time is an exception.

Yes, greater experience matters. In Movie 12, Fat Janemba has the ability to threaten the universe, and Goku was able to keep up with him in Base, and I somehow doubt we're supposed to think Base Goku is similarly a universal threat. In the Super anime, Beerus takes time to train Goku in the use of his newfound SSG powers, the result of which is a more knowledgeable SSG Goku (and therefore, more capable) than how he started.

Another example: Hit is equivalent to SSB, and therefore stronger than Goku who did not start out as a SSB. Did Goku, the weaker fighter, lose to Hit, the stronger fighter, before he managed to go SSB? No. Being more powerful did not result in a win, unlike the 99.999% of the time it usually does.

So no. I still don't see the 6-10-15 scale no longer applying. Well, I can see how you can see that (and thanks for letting me see how and why you see that). But I still disagree. It's still just a choice of highballing their gains or lowballing their gains, but I have no reason to highball and plenty to lowball. Heck, even if I weren't trying to have the 6-10-15 scale still apply, I still wouldn't be considering a large gain that I felt wasn't warranted.

As for SSB Vegetto, 1) I already allowed for him exceeding not just Beerus but Whis as well. You propose ">7.5 + >7.5 = >15"; I don't insist that that's not the case. 2) I will, however, say that I'm no longer of the opinion that the Potara fusion operates according to a set, predictable modifier. Kibitokai was one increase, the hypothetical "Gokan" a different one, the Buu Saga Vegetto a third, Merged Zamasu a fourth. So while I don't insist that SSB Vegetto wasn't even a x2 increase, I'm also open to that possibility.

Have you actually read the chapter in question where Vegeta interchanges between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black? He dominates Goku Balck for the entirety of their battle. And as stated before, Super Saiyan Blue burns through your stamina in the manga, so if Vegeta used the form straight from the get go he would burn through all of his ki before he could have gotten the job done. The whole point of Vegeta interchanging between SSJG and SSJB to fight SSJR Goku Black wasn't because SSJB wouldn't get the job done. It's so that Vegeta could manage his power more efficiently and wouldn't wastes all of his energy as SSJB. Hell, Goku outright states that to be the case in the chapter. If SSJB Vegeta wasn't stronger than SSJR Goku Black at the point in the narrative then he wouldn't have sent SSJR Goku Black flying into several buildings with a single kick and he wouldn't have beat him up as easily as he did.

Yes, I have read that chapter. SSR is Goku Black's version of SSB. So it shares that form's issues. If SSB after extended use results in being only 10% SSG, then SSR after extended use would also result in a similarly diminished power, no? So if SSB Vegeta is already stronger than SSR Goku Black and if they both spend the same amount of time fighting each other, then while SSB Vegeta would eventually be weaker by burning through his Ki, SSR Goku Black would likewise be weaker by burning through his Ki. In which case, Vegeta's never in danger of not having enough Ki to get the job done, what with remaining ahead of SSR's diminishing energy the whole time.

So if he gets weaker through continuous use of SSB while his opponent is in the same boat, of what benefit is the SSG-SSB switch? If he had been anticipating another fight after defeating Black, that would be different. But Goku was going to deal with Zamasu and neither of them had anticipated a fusion, so that's not the case. What, was he going to go back to fighting Goku again immediately afterwards?

If SSB was stronger than SSR, and if its drain is a nonissue (which it is), then SSB can get the job done all by itself and the addition of SSG doesn't help. So why bother with it? Ergo, its addition gives Vegeta an edge he needed that just sticking with SSB wouldn't give. So SSB by itself wasn't enough; that is to say, it was weaker. Not by so much he couldn't still keep up and eventually dominate the fight, but still weaker.

Having God ki doesn't automatically mean you have a greater reservoir of strength compared users that have Mortal Ki. Kaioshin and Dende wield God ki but we know they're nothing compared to the main cast. Particularly the Saiyans and the Androids.

Yes, I agree entirely. Nappa completely outclasses Kami. Cell completely outclasses King Kai. Why, then, would Golden Frieza outclassing SSB Goku's combination of God Ki and Mortal Ki be any different?

[supercat]

I've always seen the two base theory as nothing more than an excuse for Buu / Buu saga fans to keep their beloved Buu relevant on the power scale. How dare a weakling like Piccolo surpass a universal powerhouse like Majin Buu!

This is Dragon Ball people... Characters train and get stronger as the plot requires. Previously established benchmarks (ones that were once seemingly impossible to reach) get surpassed instantly for the sake of story progression.

Just because Piccolo was awestruck by SSJ3 Goku at one point, doesn't mean he's stuck to said tier for the rest of his existence. If two mechanically-enhanced androids can debut with powers greater than that a galactic emperor feared throughout the universe (a character that none have apparently surpassed up until that point), while random characters make a joke out of said emperor, there's no reason to really question how someone like Buu gets left behind on the power scale.

Personally, I think it's awesome the series continues dishing out stronger fighters while upgrading existing ones.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

It's still amazing how little progress has been made in understanding Super Saiyan God during such a long timeframe.

[MagmonKai]

I don't understand the two base thing either. Hell I really don't understand the whole SSB thing. After watching the dub of episode 20 I'm more convinced that "God Ki" is just hidden energy kept inside. Nothing divine about it. Second its really hard to guage SSB strength because we don't see feats like we did with SSG.

[szopman]

I think that Gohan's Mystic transformation kind of confirmed the Two-Base Theory. I mean, his Mystic state is a transformation, not his ordinary base-form. He can even transform from SSJ2 to his Ultimate form. So we know that there is a possibility of having a normal base state and some kind of "superior base form".
So I assume that Vegeta and Goku weren't just in their base form in RoF movie. I guess this "Saiyan beyond God" is some temporary state/transformation bridging SSJ God and SSJ Blue/preceeding SSJ Blue. Maybe it's accesible only when a Saiyan has already reached SSJGod, mastered it, but still hasn't reached the next transformation ?

But let's just face the facts, Toriyama/Toei just totally changed their vision/idea about SSJGod/Saiyan beyond God/SSJ Blue since the premiere of the movie.

[Desassina]

Let's remind ourselves that SSJ Blue brought Vegeta's power down to one tenth of what it could have been, while enjoying the benefit of unreadable ki, and a fashionable hair color. The transformation could be the same as SSJ - in case it was ten fold, as Toriyama once thought - because of its Ki usage until mastered or combined with SSJG, so only their base power is much higher than before. SSJ was the transformation that Goku used to tap into SSJG against Beerus when his base had already increased, and so Vegeta does the same in the anime by virtue of Whis' training, so that he can reach SSJB without going through the ritual. In other words:

1. SSJ is equal to SSJG in the anime and the same as SSJB when the latter brings their power down to one tenth.
2. SSJB in the anime is equal to SSJG in the manga when the latter is used to change into SSJB and minimize loss.
3. SSJB + KKx10 is equal to a mastered SSJB in the manga when it should include SSJG without the need to change.
4. Their base state is stronger than before due to Goku having tasted God power and Vegeta having trained with Whis.
5. SSJ2 and SSJ3 could still increase Goku's power by 2 and 4 in a sequence that his maximum is 80 and lower than SSJB.

In case you want some numbers:

SSJ/SSJ God (anime) = SSJ Blue 1/10th (manga) = 10
SSJ Blue (anime) = SSJ God & SSJ Blue (manga) = 100
KKx10 SSJB (anime) = Mastered SSJB (manga) = 1'000

[KingTimothy98]

It is the epitome of ad hoc