I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

[MisteryOne]

ok big question what evidence is there for this theory?

To put it in a simple equation, we've literally seen this:

Base Goku [Future Trunks arc] < SS Goku [Future Trunks arc] < SS2 Goku [Future Trunks arc] < SS3 Goku [Future Trunks arc] < Base Goku [BoG arc, post-SSG] <= SS Goku [BoG arc, post-SSG] = SSG Goku < SSB Goku

Either there are 2 base forms, or consistency is really fucked up... I'll go with the first option, personally.

I don`t see how this is evidence because no where has it been shown Base Goku > SSJ Goku

it has been shown SSJ Goku = SSG and this has remained consistent throughout the show and saying Trunks can`t be SSG level would be absurd as Frieza ascended beyond that in four months. Trunks has had years also Vegeta surpassed SSG in 6 months without God ki, before he made that comment "is this godly ki? the pressure is immense" showing he did not have it

absolutely nothing has shown that base Goku has been above SSJ Goku and the only thing that have ever been shown is that they have God ki when they are SSB . i don`t know of a single instance where this theory becomes relevant and i can`t think of why this theory needs to exist it does not help but only complicates the show

Goku being SSG level as a SSJ would cause no issues and him having God ki only as a SSB works and is the only consistent evidence for the show

again i have to ask where is the evidence?

Rewatch the Goku vs Beerus fight in the BoG arc. Base Goku was shown to be stronger that SSG and SS. And the theory does indeed help with the show, unless you're telling me that Buu is weaker than Cabba, who was said to be extremely weak (How did you enter in the tournament with this power?) yet Buu was said to be crazy strong. Cabba is equal to Vegeta in base, yet that is supposed to be a weak level for the tournament, but latter its shown that Vegeta can destroy SS3 Gotenks, who is way stronger than the original Fat Boo, let alone Mr Boo, his actual entity.
Not only that, base Goku from ROF was explicity said to be stronger that when he fought Beerus, and he was able to fight Beerus himself in the Monaka costume filler just using his base and at the same time he trough Monaka was really strong. You really thing he would be thinking that if Monaka was not God tier?

And no, Trunks being SSG tier doesn't make sense and it doesn't fit with Frieza who had NEVER trained a single day of his life. That excuse is seriously getting ridiculous, Frieza doing it doesn't mean everyone can, that was the point of ROF. It may work woth the androids, but not with saiyans who only trained during years in a destroyed world without other stronger beings. Trunks even had problems with Dabura. Its he God tier now? When has that being shown?

Anyway the only reason the theory is used is because of how nonsensical the anime power are. In the manga everything is way more consistent and simpler. People need to accept that Super's power level doesn't make sense at all and they are even worse that in the ROF film so the only way you can see them work is using theories. Otherwise you have Gowasu comparing SS2 Goku to a Hakaishin despite us already knowing that Goku's Blue Kaioken x 10 is still nothing to Beerus.

[Darkprince410]

Rewatch the Goku vs Beerus fight in the BoG arc. Base Goku was shown to be stronger that SSG and SS. And the theory does indeed help with the show, unless you're telling me that Buu is weaker than Cabba, who was said to be extremely weak (How did you enter in the tournament with this power?) yet Buu was said to be crazy strong. Cabba is equal to Vegeta in base, yet that is supposed to be a weak level for the tournament, but latter its shown that Vegeta can destroy SS3 Gotenks, who is way stronger than the original Fat Boo, let alone Mr Boo, his actual entity.
Not only that, base Goku from ROF was explicity said to be stronger that when he fought Beerus, and he was able to fight Beerus himself in the Monaka costume filler just using his base and at the same time he trough Monaka was really strong. You really thing he would be thinking that if Monaka was not God tier?

Vegeta was making those comments (about Cabba being weak) solely to try and rile Cabba up to get him to transform for the first time. Nothing indicated that he actually meant any of them whatsoever or actually considered Cabba weak at all.

You'll have to show me where it's actually said that Goku in his base during the RoF arc was stronger than when he fought Beerus, as I got done watching the episodes on both Crunchyroll and Daisuki, and neither of their translations make any comparison between Goku's level back then and his level now. The only comparison made at all between them is that, unlike with the battle between Goku and Beerus, Kuririn senses an "insurmountable fear" when it comes to Goku and Freeza's fight. No actual comparison of strength is made whatsoever, which is undoubtedly one of the reasons that the Fact Checker for that particular episode that Herms put together never made mention of a strength comparison at all.

Likewise, Beerus was directly stated to be holding back while in the Monaka costume in order to keep it from being destroyed and the ruse revealed.

[Doctor.]

Vegeta and Goku need to turn Super Saiyan to defeat Frost, when Piccolo could handle him just fine. Is Piccolo God tier now too?
Goku needs to go Super Saiyan 2 and 3 to handle Trunks, when Trunks a year back was having trouble with Dabra. Is Dabra God tier now too?
Beerus went through so much trouble just to find a Super Saiyan God, when he could have gone to U10 and fight Zamasu, who went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Is Zamasu God tier now too?
Super Saiyan Gohan went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan Goku. Is Gohan God tier now too? Despite the fact that they've been making countless references to the fact that he has been getting weaker?

[ryan s]

To put it in a simple equation, we've literally seen this:

Base Goku [Future Trunks arc] < SS Goku [Future Trunks arc] < SS2 Goku [Future Trunks arc] < SS3 Goku [Future Trunks arc] < Base Goku [BoG arc, post-SSG] <= SS Goku [BoG arc, post-SSG] = SSG Goku < SSB Goku

Either there are 2 base forms, or consistency is really fucked up... I'll go with the first option, personally.

I don`t see how this is evidence because no where has it been shown Base Goku > SSJ Goku

it has been shown SSJ Goku = SSG and this has remained consistent throughout the show and saying Trunks can`t be SSG level would be absurd as Frieza ascended beyond that in four months. Trunks has had years also Vegeta surpassed SSG in 6 months without God ki, before he made that comment "is this godly ki? the pressure is immense" showing he did not have it

absolutely nothing has shown that base Goku has been above SSJ Goku and the only thing that have ever been shown is that they have God ki when they are SSB . i don`t know of a single instance where this theory becomes relevant and i can`t think of why this theory needs to exist it does not help but only complicates the show

Goku being SSG level as a SSJ would cause no issues and him having God ki only as a SSB works and is the only consistent evidence for the show

again i have to ask where is the evidence?

Rewatch the Goku vs Beerus fight in the BoG arc. Base Goku was shown to be stronger that SSG and SS. And the theory does indeed help with the show, unless you're telling me that Buu is weaker than Cabba, who was said to be extremely weak (How did you enter in the tournament with this power?) yet Buu was said to be crazy strong. Cabba is equal to Vegeta in base, yet that is supposed to be a weak level for the tournament, but latter its shown that Vegeta can destroy SS3 Gotenks, who is way stronger than the original Fat Boo, let alone Mr Boo, his actual entity.
Not only that, base Goku from ROF was explicity said to be stronger that when he fought Beerus, and he was able to fight Beerus himself in the Monaka costume filler just using his base and at the same time he trough Monaka was really strong. You really thing he would be thinking that if Monaka was not God tier?

And no, Trunks being SSG tier doesn't make sense and it doesn't fit with Frieza who had NEVER trained a single day of his life. That excuse is seriously getting ridiculous, Frieza doing it doesn't mean everyone can, that was the point of ROF. It may work woth the androids, but not with saiyans who only trained during years in a destroyed world without other stronger beings. Trunks even had problems with Dabura. Its he God tier now? When has that being shown?

Anyway the only reason the theory is used is because of how nonsensical the anime power are. In the manga everything is way more consistent and simpler. People need to accept that Super's power level doesn't make sense at all and they are even worse that in the ROF film so the only way you can see them work is using theories. Otherwise you have Gowasu comparing SS2 Goku to a Hakaishin despite us already knowing that Goku's Blue Kaioken x 10 is still nothing to Beerus.

i can't respond to all of that anyway how does the movie have any relevance with Super? it doesn't . Trunks as a SSJ2 held back SSR Goku black so he would be above and beyond SSG tier and as for cabba he is supposed to be the strongest in his universe context is important. the theory makes no sense

[ClutchBangstrip]

I try not to overthink Dragon Ball, so I don't believe in the 2 base theory. I think if that were the case, it would have been confirmed, directly.
It's not a bad theory, though. I mean, there is no real evidence to say it's not true, there just isn't enough evidence to confirm it, either.

[Jack Bz]

To me at least, it was pretty clear that there was just no communication between Toriyama and Toei regarding this. In the DBS manga, Goku never absorbs the ssj God power within his other forms, and the fight ends when the form runs out. However, as seen in the U6 tournament, Goku has learnt to access that form at will (and more or less combine it with super saiyan to make ssj blue). The key difference is that super saiyan god is a form like any other super saiyan form.

The anime however, takes the battle of gods movie approach with Goku absorbing this form's power into his other forms. This is fine until it gets to the first original story of Dragon Ball Super, the U6 tournament, where suddenly nothing makes sense. The whole U6 team are more or less God tier? What? Goku needs super saiyan to beat Frost? Shouldn't his base and super saiyan forms be more or less similar strength now? How is Piccolo keeping up with someone who is a God tier opponent, let alone almost beat them? How is Cabba, who never even learned super saiyan, keeping up with someone with the power of super saiyan god?

There was basically a quiet retcon, and the anime made a mistake of emulating the movies in the first 2 arcs assuming they would be exactly the same logically as what Toriyama had planned for Super. From U6 onwards, it's pretty consistent besides the copy-Vegeta arc, which is almost definitely an entirely TOEI invention.

It does interest me how the manga would have handled the RoF arc. Maybe Goku would have fought freeza using ssj god before eventually using blue.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

People would be more receptive to the "Two-Base Theory" if people stopped vaguely calling it a second base and instead "Saiyan Beyond God" which at the very least has a name and is represented in merchandise. It's conceivable that Saiyan Beyond God in the anime and Super Saiyan Red in the manga are the exact same thing, but with the former lacking the latter's appearance or God ki.

Not that I subscribe to it, but it's the easiest explanation for anyone who does.

[Lord Frieza]

I think it was an idea that they tried to implement in the RoF story and it has quit clearly been fazed out since the Black arc.

Goku by the original comments, the potiential idea after BoG was that, I think, for Goku to drop ss2 and 3 and have the power of is base and normal SS form be dramatically increased because of absorbing the power of SSG. However such a change was would likely have not gone over well with fans and Toei likely was not to thrilled as loose forms they could make money off of in merchandise. Thus Blue was created as a way to meet everyone half way. Goku's transformation was basically Super Saiyan but with a new hair colour and aura to give a visible representation of Goku's new god power.

However for some reason during the Champa arc ideas were changed and it was decided that SSGSS/Blue should be its own thing and Goku should have his old forms back. As a result Saiyan Beyond God was quietly removed without most people noticing the transition.

The idea dose still live on in Anime Goku Black though. This version of Black dose not go SS, a fact I really like, and instead seems to tap into his God ki more making his aura darker.

[TheMikado]

People would be more receptive to the "Two-Base Theory" if people stopped vaguely calling it a second base and instead "Saiyan Beyond God" which at the very least has a name and is represented in merchandise. It's conceivable that Saiyan Beyond God in the anime and Super Saiyan Red in the manga are the exact same thing, but with the former lacking the latter's appearance or God ki.

Not that I subscribe to it, but it's the easiest explanation for anyone who does.

If you have an issue with the "name" of the theory rather than the contents and merits of the theory itself then maybe it's too complicated for that audience to understand in the first place. No ones going to change the name just for the sake of those too intellectual lazy to grasp the concept. Also it was called "two base" for a very specific reason.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Also it was called "two base" for a very specific reason.

Why?

[TheMikado]

Also it was called "two base" for a very specific reason.

Why?

The theory is that there is a Saiyan beyond God form that should be in the anime as well. Obviously in the manga this takes of form of SSG and sits between SSJ3 and SSB in terms power level tiers. Basically the theory was that it did/does exist but was invisible and essentially a 2nd base form that they didn't distinguish between in the anime for whatever number of reasons.

For instance the "2nd base" would have been used against Frieza while Goku would have used his "1st base" during the tournament. Same with the copy Vegeta arc and so on.

Basically it was developed around what the anime presented, which was a lack of distinction between When Goku was isn't his regular normal base versus a 2nd "Saiyan beyond God/SSG level form". It's since been abandoned in favor of thinking they will never explain it in universe and instead retcon the entire strong Base idea altogether. However it still helps to explain what level characters actually "should" be at.

So to recap, it's only called "two base" because in the anime there is no visible distinction to tell us when he should or should not be using this stronger base if it actually existed at all in the anime. But that there actually "should" be a weak one without God imbued power and a stronger one imbued with God power/ki. And "should" in the sense of making power levels make sense.

[LowRyder2005]

At this point, given some recent showings, I believe it's quite fair to say that the anime took at the very least one or two steps back from the power hierarchy originally established in the movies. Or that it didn't really care. Basically, when Goku was fighting Bergamo, he astonished everyone by going SSB - which prompted some god to comment, with a modicum of surprise, with something like "oh, he has power rivaling that of the gods!"; and, well, Goku had been fighting both in base and Super Saiyan. So the intent is pretty much to show that he doesn't possess that kind of power (at least now?) unless he goes Blue.

Now, regardless of the general inconsistent nature of Super, it seems like in the end they did want to drop the big Battle of Gods plot point of Goku's base form being not too different, power-wise, from his godly self. Lazy writing, soft retcon (in the bridge arc between BOG and ROF an untrasformed Vegeta was still "unrecognizable" according to the same Goku... for some reason) or whatever that may be.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

@TheMikado I realize it's indistinguishable from regular Base in appearance, but I don't understand why it's continuously vaguely referred to as a "second base" when a name for the state, however minor and frivolous the context, has already been created for the Goku who acquired and retained Super Saiyan God's power. That applies to that Base Goku whether you're a Two-Baser or someone who believes he's always at that level, so I don't see the context in which that term isn't applicable.

No, it hasn't been communicated to the viewer via the direct Super canon, but does that mean we should stop calling it Super Saiyan Rage and call it Super Saiyan 2 2 until it is? What does the term "second base" accomplish that Saiyan Beyond God doesn't, besides be unnecessarily vague and ill-suited for discussion?

[Saturnine]

@TheMikado I realize it's indistinguishable from regular Base in appearance, but I don't understand why it's continuously vaguely referred to as a "second base" when a name for the state, however minor and frivolous the context, has already been created for the Goku who acquired and retained Super Saiyan God's power. That applies to that Base Goku whether you're a Two-Baser or someone who believes he's always at that level, so I don't see the context in which that term isn't applicable.

No, it hasn't been communicated to the viewer via the direct Super canon, but does that mean we should stop calling it Super Saiyan Rage and call it Super Saiyan 2 2 until it is? What does the term "second base" accomplish that Saiyan Beyond God doesn't, besides be unnecessarily vague and ill-suited for discussion?

It's not really about the term. It gets called a "second base" or a "godly base", because Saiyan beyond God is supposed to be the base state of a Saiyan who's retained the power of Super Saiyan God. But yeah, this power has clearly been retconned as of now, with the anime straying away from it gradually instead of giving an explanation.

[TheMikado]

@TheMikado I realize it's indistinguishable from regular Base in appearance, but I don't understand why it's continuously vaguely referred to as a "second base" when a name for the state, however minor and frivolous the context, has already been created for the Goku who acquired and retained Super Saiyan God's power. That applies to that Base Goku whether you're a Two-Baser or someone who believes he's always at that level, so I don't see the context in which that term isn't applicable.

No, it hasn't been communicated to the viewer via the direct Super canon, but does that mean we should stop calling it Super Saiyan Rage and call it Super Saiyan 2 2 until it is? What does the term "second base" accomplish that Saiyan Beyond God doesn't, besides be unnecessarily vague and ill-suited for discussion?

And
It's not really about the term. It gets called a "second base" or a "godly base", because Saiyan beyond God is supposed to be the base state of a Saiyan who's retained the power of Super Saiyan God. But yeah, this power has clearly been retconned as of now, with the anime straying away from it gradually instead of giving an explanation.

Also be cause Saiyan beyond God is a specific form and actually has an aura different from Gokus normal base which seems to denote it. Thus there is actually a tangible difference in how Goku should look when using it. Basically calling it SbG would be incorrect as it doesn't exist in the anime at all. At least as we know it. Further it's just a name. Like I said, no one really cares what the form is or is called as long as it meets certain criteria of what should logically be in that power progression. You're really focusing in on the name to which I have to ask how does the name affect your understanding of the concept? I can understand confusion at first glance but with more information about the theory why does it matter what the name is?

For reference this is the visual cues we seem to be missing to call it SbG.

[Saturnine]

Yeah, the aura is somewhat different, feels more milky and all. They haven't been consistent with it in what few appearances it had though, since I believe Copy Vegeta was meant to be SbG (otherwise no way he'd murk SSj3 Gotenks), but in general yeah, with willingness it would be perfectly possible to make the two states distinguishable. Too bad Toei decided to abandon this concept and go the flashy way with Super Saiyan forms instead.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, Gohan has never been Ultimate in Super so far ever since the Resurrection "F" arc, meaning base Gohan forced base Goku to use Super Saiyan, and then SS Gohan fought evenly with SS Goku. Explain this without the two-base theory.

[buutenks]

So, Gohan has never been Ultimate in Super so far ever since the Resurrection "F" arc, meaning base Gohan forced base Goku to use Super Saiyan, and then SS Gohan fought evenly with SS Goku. Explain this without the two-base theory.

I never liked the 2 base theory, but this is the only solution. It would explain everything.

We have ssj Goku fighting a weaker ssj Gohan, then we got base Goku fighting a stronger Mr Buy. From the exhibition matches Mr Buu was definitely above Gohan power wise.

[DBZ Macky]

So, Gohan has never been Ultimate in Super so far ever since the Resurrection "F" arc, meaning base Gohan forced base Goku to use Super Saiyan, and then SS Gohan fought evenly with SS Goku. Explain this without the two-base theory.

"It was just a sparring match even though Goku said he was going all out. Not to mention that the fight was just filler even though there's no such thing as filler in a show like DBS which is its own take on the source material."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, Gohan has never been Ultimate in Super so far ever since the Resurrection "F" arc, meaning base Gohan forced base Goku to use Super Saiyan, and then SS Gohan fought evenly with SS Goku. Explain this without the two-base theory.

"It was just a sparring match even though Goku said he was going all out. Not to mention that the fight was just filler even though there's no such thing as filler in a show like DBS which is its own take on the source material."

"Hey I'm gonna go Super Saiyan even though I can beat you with 10% of my base form, which is definitely stronger than my full power". And the "it's filler" explanation doesn't count, because we are in the "In-Universe Discussion" forum. Not to mention that Goku displayed power comparable to Gohan's via their fight with Kuririn. Not to mention that there are indications that the return of regular Super Saiyan 1/2/3 for Goku & Vegeta in Super didn't come from Toriyama, so why the hell are we having this discussion if we are talking about purely Toriyama content & not Super as a whole.